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這句話是在講考試"},{"start":108.427,"end":118.576,"text":"你一直頂頭,你會吃到這個廢索,你也不知道現場法庭在說什麼。現場法庭一直在盯立法院,盯著說你們實在是手沒水準的啦。我也抱歉跟你們說你們這個沒水準的庭頭有夠危險啦。所以就輕輕就放過去了,就對。"},{"start":126.603,"end":148.355,"text":"這句話我來幫你解答你的解讀你的那個今天的報告其實你就是這個意思我也肯認所以我都不為難你啦我們立法院確實在整個立法程序裡面這些很困難因為有政黨之間的一個攻防你很難去講說一個議事規則裡面每一個政黨解讀都會一樣有多數"},{"start":151.21,"end":175.445,"text":"藍白加起來多數那好不容易多數當然要給你造反一下讓你執政黨讓你辛苦一下也可以理解但是呢過度的去給自己膨脹自己的權力啊到最後大家就變成白忙一場所以憲法法庭做出這一個憲判的一個判決出來以後啊我都感覺是對立法院啊這樣也不說重權啦是稍微拔一下這樣而已啦拔一下說不最近的立法院要自己再檢討一下啦"},{"start":179.605,"end":195.201,"text":"第二個部分你說聽取總統國情報告的一個部分軍抵觸憲法權力分立制原則施取效力你跟他講一下說予以尊重是我們也當然只好予以尊重因為整部憲法除非你去自憲"},{"start":196.582,"end":209.335,"text":"否則按照整個憲法的一個規定你司法院當然講的就是我們的憲法法庭這些大法官他們反而就是解釋憲法或者說統一解釋法律跟命令那到底有沒有去抵觸到憲法那質詢的部分人事同意權這個部分"},{"start":213.72,"end":230.133,"text":"諮詢我就不用說了啦 大家在那裡動不動啊第四點 你看你寫這個就很有意思了那有關人事同意權的部分啊 憲法法庭基本上肯認啊人事同意權這審查的一個程序屬於國會自律當然屬於國會自律啊要怎麼頂 甚至你要怎麼叫你如果不怕說你連累到你的政黨啊不怕說你是苦惹的啊 頂多選票人家都不回給你 你要怎麼叫"},{"start":242.476,"end":248.981,"text":"那確實也國會自律啊只是道歉人家說怎麼會這麼沒有水準可是他的危言大義其實也告訴我們立法院只有一個功能就是說沒辦法沒辦法你就發差啦用這個人賣啦你要提名做我們來當大法官我總理想說這個人很好我法學素養很好我就跟你同意啊很討厭你做我們來就說處理處理處理處理你沒教訓"},{"start":268.004,"end":294.859,"text":"了不起只能這樣國會其實就真的只能這樣我們的憲政設計本來本來就是如此啊那你你你去提到說未來院會會員會有關同意權審查程序將以未經宣告違憲的新規定來運作吼問題又困難下去了囉要去衝一波工齁我們自我想像說啊沒有違憲的程序來做一個運作秘書長你會覺得容易嗎"},{"start":298.547,"end":324.439,"text":"報告莊委員因為這個在法通過的時候在暫時處分已經我們的單位的幕僚單位已經對於這方面大概都有整理過大概因為那個程序怎麼去審查的程序過程當然他們都已經大概都有整理過了我必須跟我說你立法院你只要大一點都坐在這裡"},{"start":327.082,"end":336.055,"text":"立法院不管是誰執政不管是誰多數立法院其實所有的幕僚人員都要保持中立"},{"start":338.274,"end":360.168,"text":"那個數值要提升上來啦不是為誰來服務啦不是為誰來服務啦立法院的一個運作要有它基本的一個底線要有它基本的一個底線安國宇正議長權力基礎來自於藍白跟他支持他提名你做秘書長稍微偏一個順利一個讓他運作一下可以接受"},{"start":361.048,"end":373.709,"text":"但是呢你去弄一個規則說要比較來讓誰有利於他整個議事的一個運作這也都不對現在的立法院現在的立法委員你說大不大"},{"start":375.166,"end":393.755,"text":"大到內闊大到不穿的太不大了 誰掌握多數你就是讓整個行政部門你讓他非常痛苦一定的嘛 誰來執政都一樣 國會只要你不是多數的話 就是會如此啊大法官的憲法法庭的威嚴大義也是在告訴民進黨啊 說要送到你國會去選書人"},{"start":396.936,"end":412.96,"text":"選輸人你搞不好都本來那一些程序裡面的運作民主的正當程序該如何如何如何但是如果沒有重大到憲政上的一個重大的一個關聯的話他也認為說不到違憲的層次啊你立法院的問題就階層不給管啊你問題就在選舉而已啊所以你後備務要去收拾都你做的事情衝衝的料送出來的料三途過處走走的他也不會幫你宣告違憲啊"},{"start":424.895,"end":436.437,"text":"是不是這樣說?你在這裡四十幾年了,你誇大了,你算什麼?但是啊,在整個,請秘書長你再去回憶一下,在整個修法的過程裡面,我一直在呼籲啊,"},{"start":437.895,"end":453.504,"text":"就是說不能人在選舉的時候,我們每一個政黨去看著我們的老百姓,阿伯阿嬤一直拜託,公聽、聽政,不只叫人來,要虛偽、嘗試,這就補分了。本地老百姓你要三年以後還要叫人來嗎?是我在那裡大聲疾呼,一直喊喊喊,我說你們這個,"},{"start":461.713,"end":461.793,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":481.223,"end":504.716,"text":"這個權力分立的一個原則我是這一點我是最感觸啦我是最感觸立法院其實這一點啊會最讓人看不起的地方是在這個地方我們做出這樣的一個修法然後修法的部分是認為藐視國會這個部分也被宣告違憲啊你撈北省要出青菜還是刮完的薄雲都來了你就這樣無限去把自己的權力這樣去擴張啊這個確實是"},{"start":507.617,"end":531.378,"text":"我是比較敢出的一個地方所以我今天特別要請教秘書長就是說接下來你會碰到很大的問題還好這一號憲判是救了你為什麼說秘書長他救了你你知道嗎你去看喔你如果站在立法院的角度原來的如果說這個沒有被憲法法庭宣告是違憲的話"},{"start":532.901,"end":537.043,"text":"你如果叫我們來台灣去執行之後,你立法院的調查跟聽證,你開不了啊?沒有你就有理由你自己去報詞啊?是不是這樣說?這好到知道啊?我就知道你如果看到這個訊息,我就知道你做我們來的一定臭屁屁啊!那多緊張啊!但是問題這個,你以後怎麼辦?怎麼辦?"},{"start":554.929,"end":583.851,"text":"我認為秘書長你可以發揮很大的一個功能啊民眾人你說他聽不下去啦但國民黨你說 他們又笑我聽得下去啊你怎麼跟他們說這不是你們的專長啊真的不是他們的專長涉及到憲法層次的齁到最後啊因為你在正當正地什麼人輪流執政大家都有機會嘛你把這個基本大法你去把它"},{"start":584.875,"end":608.666,"text":"把他給破壞掉的話,這對整個國家來講不見得是一件好事啊。因為國民黨現在偶爾可以看到大家都穿那些白的,我想說那些白衣服是做得很漂亮啦。我不知道說是開什麼國際記者會。開始就開始說立法程序裡面大法、憲法法庭說沒有違憲啊。是啊!憲法法庭沒有講說立法程序那個過程裡面"},{"start":609.878,"end":622.261,"text":"有違憲啊但是他跟你講說有很大的瑕疵啊我們這個禮拜你還聽不懂人家一直說你這沒水準啊沒水準說沒有大法官說我沒那麼嚴重我犯的罪是輕輕的而已啊沒跟台詩人這樣也可以開國際記者會我就覺得很可惜啊就是說你們港黨的你沒去發揮說你對他們的影響力我是覺得這個比較比較可惜的一個地方啊這一次"},{"start":639.06,"end":660.468,"text":"憲法法庭在做出這樣的一個判決之前甚至做出來以後社會充斥著一股大法官你這也沒有民意基礎啊那立法委員怎麼有民意基礎啊立法委員通過的法律你大法官你怎麼可以沒有民意基礎的人你就去把他宣告是違憲"},{"start":663.824,"end":677.209,"text":"這個聲音喊得很大對不對這乍聽之下各政黨的擁護者會很有道理就覺得這很有道理可是我認為這個通過不了我們周萬來秘書長你這種"},{"start":682.978,"end":703.235,"text":"我們的憲法第84條講得很清楚法官要超出黨派之外依據法律來獨立審判不受任何的一個干涉法官也好大法官也好他我們如果從我們憲法的一個規定你延伸出來他的要件就只有兩個"},{"start":705.54,"end":714.248,"text":"大法官或者法官你就是依法審判你就是獨立審判跟你有沒有民意基礎一點關係都沒有啊你引入一個判決判你把他判死刑的你講你如果沒有民意基礎你怎麼能判死刑他會痛那如果全台灣現在三個最大的民意基礎的一個賴清德總統第二個在做新北市長"},{"start":731.749,"end":732.129,"text":"不可能嘛!"},{"start":762.318,"end":772.16,"text":"我們也不可能去制定出這樣的一部法令出來啊所以憲法為什麼是說國之大法任何憲政機關你自己有你自己的職責你們也提到啊我看整個憲法判決裡面我不管是我這兩天我不管是搭飛機在高鐵喔我這本齁我放你啊我差不多整個憲判我都搞笑啊我們來回一直看我想這看十天"},{"start":793.099,"end":818.588,"text":"是要怎麼說這個大法官是綠?怎麼會?你怎麼會說這個大法官,憲法法庭的法官,你說這個做出來這個,有部分協同意見書,還有不同意見書,都寫在那裡?大法官本來就很冷靜啊。大法官就是我寫出來,你們給我看,給你們寫回去批判啊。我管你什麼民意不民意,我可以跟你說什麼人比較多票,我就聽什麼人。噢,我覺得我現在要跟你照顧一下,你如果第二關票沒寫一關,你比較好。"},{"start":823.332,"end":840.471,"text":"這樣我們這個憲法庭法庭要做什麼?不可能嘛!我必須要這樣說,所以我是覺得今天大家叫你來是什麼?施設刑堂?我告訴你為什麼要跟你施設刑堂?不就是讓五官主委跟你勸?我如果勸你之後也讓你判斷,你把我勸回來而已!"},{"start":843.47,"end":857.679,"text":"所以這個刻意啊這個都是矮化我們整個立法院都矮化我們整個立法院刻意去把大法官說你這個是誰的打手是憲法法庭的大法官我認為應該當打手他應該當誰的打手當人民的打手"},{"start":862.742,"end":885.843,"text":"說你這個政黨亂搞的時候我大法官當然要站出來當作人民的打手為人民來捍衛整個憲政上它的一個基本權利啊!民主法庭罪就是這樣子啊!他就說你一直沒人給你擴權!啊!可以自己選選的!這選舉以前叫阿爸阿母好啊!開始阿伯阿嬤啊!大家一直拜託拜託算了喔!自己做檢察官自己要做法官!我們都講爛啦!可是還是這樣通過"},{"start":888.786,"end":894.968,"text":"我就覺得這一次的一個憲法法庭的最主要做出來的判決的一個意義是反省啦民進黨我也要反省我們要反省說選輸人意見不公要我們來做折衝調和多數的人也不用挑擺他會這樣惹多數也沒有嘛所以我們大家做法對抗做出來憲法法庭就要把我們塞下去這樣"},{"start":917.902,"end":946.795,"text":"請教秘書長你的看法謝謝莊委員的整個聆聽的過程非常敬佩在一個整個一個過程裡面大概角度上來看因為以秘書長的角度但因為他是行政資源我未必在這邊表述我個人自己的看法不過不過我個人在立法院幾十年"},{"start":947.679,"end":972.006,"text":"在合適庭見的時候我自己本身參與這個組組3、4個月了我覺得國會議員對於這個國會的自己的立法權有時候也必須加以考量,謝謝是,我必須再指出來秘書長你這樣講我就覺得比較不同意,我是說你要把它放"},{"start":975.087,"end":980.775,"text":"顯然這個部分你也沒有聽得很下去但你去要表達大話不就要跟你要求你注意把它想想看"},{"start":982.557,"end":992.219,"text":"我們所有的成長背景裡面,我們都知道說若要遵照司法獨立的規則,偵查中的案件,例如你不要嫁妓,不要要去公寓,我們檢察官,人家發現你在審判,不要去影響到人家的偵查,不要去影響到人家審判的一個獨立性嘛,我們就一天創一個偵查中,東西要一天調調來,我們不是講了很多次嗎?"},{"start":1007.987,"end":1017.049,"text":"這個你當初你也肯認啊可是我告訴你你沒辦法嘛你萬一做出來就是這樣嘛我講的是說你要去發揮你的影響力就是那個很簡單這個放諸四海而皆准孩子也應該知道我們立法院我們創這個法你不覺得我們很漏氣嗎你不覺得我們很漏氣嗎所以我今天問你這一些這一些其實我還是到最後講出最後一個做一個結論啦人民還是主體啦"},{"start":1038.004,"end":1047.956,"text":"老百姓你不會亂問的啦!尤其是立法院的權力來自於人民啦!你把老百姓叫來,你不來叫你來,你不來,你還要介紹、給你發情?叫你講,你跟他說的話我就不聽了,要判刑"},{"start":1053.379,"end":1053.679,"text":"莊瑞雄議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":395,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時43分）謝謝召委，有請我們立法院秘書長。"],["主席：有請周秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我應該叫監察院的秘書長上來，聽聽你們兩位的意見，但是今天他是因解凍案列席，我就不好意思了。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝、謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長早，其實我今天看你這一份報告，我的看法跟別人不太一樣，我是覺得四平八穩，因為也不敢去太過於表達你自己的意見，但是有幾個地方要提出來就教。我看你今天這一本報告裡面，你從整個立法程序裡面去講說，到最後憲法法庭的判決結果予以肯認，係屬本院國會議事自律的一個範疇，這句話結論是對的，但是不是這樣解讀，這次憲法法庭有很多的地方都一直在跟你講說，在整部的立法程序裡面，很多地方實難謂無瑕疵，自身立法程序之瑕疵……這個立法程序雖存有瑕疵，然後怎麼樣、怎麼樣、怎麼樣，他只是在告訴你說，其實你們立法院就像動物園，你們立法院的水準本來就不高，但沒關係，你們如果人數眾多，有公開、看得到的話，包括吵架、打架，你們要用怎麼樣的表決程序，那都是你們的事情，只是憲法法庭告訴你還沒有嚴重到違憲的程度，這句話是在講這個，這句話是在挖苦我們。你一直點頭，你都已經活到這把年紀了，怎麼會不知道憲法法庭是在講什麼！憲法法庭就是一直在噹立法院，一直在講「你們實在是很沒水準，我也不好意思說你們沒水準的程度有達到違憲啦！」所以就輕輕地放過去了。","我來幫你解讀你今天報告的這句話，其實你就是這個意思，我也肯認，所以我都不為難你啦！我們立法院確實在整個立法程序裡面，這些很困難啦！因為有政黨之間的攻防，你也很難去講，一個議事規則裡面每一個政黨解讀都會一樣。有多數，像藍白加起來多數，好不容易多數，當然要給你造反一下，讓你執政黨辛苦一下啊！也可以理解。但是過度地膨脹自己的權利，到最後大家就變成白忙一場，所以憲法法庭作出這個憲判出來以後，我都感覺是對立法院……也不是揮出重拳，而是稍微賞個一掌這樣而已，示意沒水準的立法院要自己檢討一下。","第二個部分你說，聽取總統國情報告的部分「均牴觸憲法權力分立之原則，失其效力」，對此你只是說「予以尊重」。是，我們當然也只好予以尊重，因為整部憲法，除非你去制憲，否則按照整個憲法的規定，你司法院當然是指憲法法庭的這些大法官，它本來就是在解釋憲法，或者是統一解釋法律跟命令到底有沒有牴觸到憲法。","質詢的部分和人事同意權的這個部分，質詢方面我就不用講了，大家就像在動物園。第四點你看你寫這個就很有意思了，有關人事同意權的部分，「憲法法庭基本上肯認人事同意權審查程序屬國會自律範疇」，當然屬於國會自律啊！要怎麼噹，甚至是怎麼譙，只要不怕會連累到你的政黨，區域立委也不怕人家下次連選票都不蓋給你，你要怎麼譙？確實也是國會自律啊！只是到最後人家會說，怎麼會這麼沒有水準！可是它的微言大義其實也告訴我們，立法院只有一個功能，就是只要不喜歡你就劃叉啦！表示不要用這個人啦！像是要是名周萬來當大法官，我莊瑞雄覺得這個人很好，法律素養很好，我就蓋「同意」，很討厭你周萬來的就會說，你出去，你不夠格，了不起就只能這樣。國會其實就真的只能這樣，我們的憲政設計本來就是如此。","你去提到「未來院會或委員會有關同意權審查程序，將以未經宣告違憲之新規定運作」，問題就更困難了，要去找出我們自我想像沒有違憲的程序來運作，秘書長你覺得容易嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：報告莊委員，因為在這個法通過的時候，有提暫時處分，我們的幕僚單位對於這方面大概都已有整理過，因為審查的程序等過程，他們大概都已經整理過了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長，我跟你講，立法院職位比較大的都坐在這裡了，立法院不管是誰執政，不管是誰多數，立法院所有的幕僚人員其實都要保持中立，那個素質要提升上來啦！不是為誰來服務啦！立法院的運作要有它基本的底線，韓國瑜當院長，權力基礎來自於藍白的支持，他提名你當秘書長，稍微偏向他、順著他，讓他好運作一點，可以接受，但若要弄一個規則要比較有利於誰的議事運作，這就不對。","現在的立法院、現在的立法委員，你說大不大？大到連內褲大號都穿不下！怎麼會不大！立法委員怎麼可能不大！誰掌握多數，你就是讓整個行政部門非常痛苦，一定的嘛！誰來執政都一樣。國會你只要不是多數的話，就是會如此啊！大法官組成憲法法庭的微言大義也是在告訴民進黨，誰叫你在國會選輸別人，選輸別人之後，那些程序裡面的運作，民主的正當程序該如何、如何，但是如果沒有重大到與憲政上有重大關聯的話，他也認為不到違憲的層次啊！你們立法院本來就水準不太高，你們本來就是選舉來的而已，所以你們胡亂搞、要打架都是你們的事情，法案送出委員會後，院會舉手表決，就三讀通過，他也不會宣告違憲，難道不是這樣講嗎？你在這裡四十幾年了，你看多了，你怎麼會不知道！但是請秘書長再去回憶一下，在整個修法的過程裡面，我一直在呼籲，不能在選舉的時候，每個政黨看到老百姓，都是叫伯父、伯母，一直拜託人家，之後召開公聽、聽證的時候，立法院叫人家來，然後說虛偽陳述，這個部分本來要對老百姓罰三年以內的徒刑，你還記得嗎？是我在那裡大聲疾呼，一直罵他們、一直罵他們，我說你們這樣是惡奴欺主！哪裡有選上之後，要對老百姓罰錢、要罰三年徒刑，我說這個如果不宣告違憲，我就隨便你。所以這個憲判字幾乎在我的預期裡面，沒有差距很多啦！","這個違背權力分立的原則，這一點我是最有感觸！我是最有感觸！立法院其實最讓人看不起的地方是在這個地方，我們做出這樣的一個修法，結果修法當中的藐視國會這個部分也被宣告違憲，老百姓或是官員來這裡之後，你就把自己的權力這樣無限擴張，這個確實是我比較感觸的一個地方。","所以我今天特別要請教秘書長的就是接下來你會碰到很大的問題，還好這1號憲判字救了你，我為什麼說它救了你，你知道嗎？你如果站在立法院的角度，如果這個沒有被憲法法庭宣告是違憲的話，你如果照原來的條文去執行之後，立法院的調查及聽證開不完，你會被立法院搞死，難道不是這樣講？所以幸好，我知道你如果看到這1號的時候，你周萬來一定笑咪咪，這樣多麼輕鬆！但是問題是這個以後怎麼辦？怎麼辦？我覺得秘書長你可以發揮很大的一個功能，民眾黨，你講，它聽不下去，但是國民黨，你講，他們還稍微聽得下去，你要跟他們講，這不是他們的專長。真的不是他們的專長，涉及到憲法層次的，因為我們是政黨政治，輪流執政，大家都有機會，你把這個基本大法破壞掉的話，這對整個國家來講不見得是件好事。我早上看到國民黨大家都穿那件白色衣服，我想那件白色衣服做得實在很漂亮，我不知道是在開國際記者會，記者會上就開始說立法程序裡面憲法法庭說沒有違憲。是啊！憲法法庭沒有講立法程序那個過程裡面有違憲，但是他講有很大的瑕疵，這樣我們立法院還聽不懂，人家一直說這個沒水準！結果我們說沒有，大法官說我們沒有那麼嚴重，我們犯的罪是輕輕的，沒有到殺死人。這樣也可以開國際記者會，我就覺得很可惜！就是你們都是同黨的，你沒有發揮你對他們的影響力，我是覺得這個是比較可惜的一個地方。","這次憲法法庭在做出這樣的判決之前，甚至做出來以後，社會充斥著一股大法官又沒有民意基礎，立法委員都有民意基礎，立法委員通過的法律，大法官這個沒有民意基礎的人怎麼可以就把它宣告違憲？這個聲音喊得很大，對不對？乍聽之下，各政黨的擁護者會覺得這個很有道理，可是我認為這個通過不了我們周萬來秘書長，你的耳朵聽起來就會覺得那個胡亂講，我們的憲法第八十條講得很清楚，法官要超出黨派之外，依據法律來獨立審判，不受任何的干涉。法官也好，大法官也好，我們如果從憲法的規定延伸出來，它的要件就只有兩個，大法官或者法官就是依法審判、就是獨立審判，跟你有沒有民意基礎一點關係都沒有，任何一個法官把他判死刑，你說，你也沒有民意基礎，怎麼可以給人家判死刑？怎麼會通啊？如果這樣，全臺灣現在三個最有民意基礎的，一個賴清德總統，第二個在做新北市長，第三個被抓去關。釋憲就拿給他們三個講一講就好了，可以這樣嗎？不是這樣說嗎？哪有憲法法庭在判決時在講民意基礎的？任何法院的判決，我們也不敢去講民意基礎啊！除非你去修憲，你就跟你們國民黨的朋友說，莊瑞雄那天跟我說，他的意思就是說我們要修憲啦！法官用選的，不然判決用投票的，用公投。會這樣嗎？不可能嘛！我們也不可能去制定出這樣的一部法令，所以為什麼說憲法是國之大法，任何憲政機關自己有自己的職責。","整個憲法判決裡面也有提到，這兩天我不管是搭飛機或是在高鐵，這個憲判我來回一直看，我至少看了十次，怎麼會說這些大法官是綠的？怎麼會？這些憲法法庭的大法官做出來的，有部分協同意見書，還有不同意見書也都寫在那裡，大法官本來就要很冷靜，大法官就是我寫出來，你們去看，讓社會去聞香啊！我管你什麼民意不民意，我怎麼會說誰比較多票，我就挺誰；我覺得要照顧你一下，你是第二高票，不寫一些對你比較好的。這樣我們要這個憲法法庭做什麼？不可能嘛！秘書長，是不是這樣說？所以我覺得今天大家叫你來，說什麼私設刑堂，我跟你說話是要怎麼私設刑堂啊？不然我用原子筆打你，我如果打過去，也被你撿到，你再打回來，這樣而已啊！不是這樣說嗎？所以這個都是矮化我們整個立法院，刻意去說大法官是誰的打手。是，憲法法庭的大法官，我認為應該當打手，他應該當誰的打手？當人民的打手，當你這個政黨亂搞的時候，大法官當然要站出來當作人民的打手，為人民捍衛整個憲政上的一個基本權利啊！藐視法庭罪就是這樣，他就說立法院自己擴權，可以自己選一選，在選舉以前，就開始一直拜託親朋好友，拜託完之後自己當檢察官、自己當法官，我們都講爛了，可是還是這樣通過。","我覺得這一次憲法法庭最主要做出來判決的一個意義是反省，民進黨我們也要反省，我們要反省說，選輸人，意見不同，要怎麼做折衷、調和；多數的人也不用囂張，哪有多多數，也沒有嘛！所以我們大家對抗後做出來的，憲法法庭剛好把我們打下去，請教秘書長你的看法。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝莊委員，整個聆聽的過程非常敬佩。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不敢當。"],["周秘書長萬來：在整個過程裡面，以秘書長的角度來看，因為它是行政資源，我未便在這邊表示我個人自己的看法，不過我個人在立法院幾十年，在核四停建的時候，我自己本身參與了足足三、四個月，我覺得國會議員對於國會自己的立法權，有時候也必須加以考量，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，我必須再指出來，秘書長你這樣講，我就覺得比較不同意了，我覺得你要勸他們啦！顯然這個部分你也沒有聽得很下去，你年紀比我大，我也不敢特別要求你。你想想看，在我們所有的成長背景裡面，我們都知道，若要遵照司法獨立的話，偵查中的案件立法院不要假會、不要去摸，檢察官、法院就在審判了，不要去影響到人家的偵查、不要去影響到人家審判的獨立性嘛！結果你們就去給人家弄一個偵查中還要把調資料出來，我們不是講過很多次了嗎？這個當初你也肯認啊！我知道你沒辦法，立法院做出來的決議就是這樣嘛！但我要講的是，你要去發揮你的影響力，那個很簡單，放諸四海皆準，孩子也應該知道的，立法院弄這個法，你不覺得我們很漏氣嗎？你不覺得我們很漏氣嗎？所以我今天問你這一些，我最後做一個結論：人民還是主體，老百姓不會讓你隨便摸的，尤其是立法委員的權力來自於人民，你把老百姓叫來，叫你來你不來，還在那邊裝傻的，就要罰你錢；叫你說，你淨說那些我不愛聽的，就要判刑。開什麼玩笑！立法院可以做出這種事嗎？大家是可以做多久立法委員？連這個也要去開記者會，秘書長，要勸勸他們啦！好不好？"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不覺得今天這樣問你像是在私設刑堂吧？不會吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：不會、不會。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我看你還笑咪咪的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，謝謝周秘書長。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時1分）","繼續開會（11時8分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接下來請陳委員俊宇質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-9","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","林思銘","沈發惠","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","吳宗憲","羅智強","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","張啓楷","賴士葆","謝龍介","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-28"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共6案；二、邀請立法院秘\n書長列席就「『113年憲判字第9號判決』，國會行使職權之困境與未來」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}