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呃 秘書長 你知不知道我們立法委員就任的時候要宣誓 有沒有 要嘛齁那我知道你當過考試委員 考試委員就職的時候要不要宣誓當然當然要嘛齁那你知道我們的誓詞是什麼嗎你知道立法院的誓詞是什麼嗎"},{"start":45.172,"end":72.074,"text":"剛才吳委員有提出來,我也看了稍微...你看了齁?於是以自成、克遵法令,對不對?阿你認為這個事實,我有沒有同意?我有同意。在場的每位理委都有同意,對不對?那有沒有...那你知道克遵法令,法令有沒有包括憲法?很好。那你就職,你現在是公務員,你是政務官,是不是?"},{"start":73.137,"end":99.266,"text":"那你擔任常任文官的時候,公務員要不要宣誓?公務員沒有宣誓嗎?公務員有宣誓的誓詞喔,要不要背給你聽?於事以至誠,克尊憲法,效忠國家。你有沒有宣誓過?對,但是你這個誓詞你知道吧?你要不要克尊憲法,效忠國家?"},{"start":100.908,"end":127.078,"text":"你說要或不要?你就說要或不要嗎?這麼簡單的事實你都簽錯了嗎?當然所有的公務聯員一定是要遵守這個憲法克尊憲法效忠國家你同意嗎?包括你嗎?對不對?我是立法委員我是克尊國家法令盡忠職守當然這個法令包括憲法對不對?"},{"start":128.018,"end":156.643,"text":"所以我們在場的每一位只要是立法委員只要是公務員都要克尊憲法效忠國家你同意嗎?當然同意很好謝謝來我們請教兩位律師因為這個問題比較年輕兩位律師比較年輕在20年前有一個廣告就是一個小朋友問爸爸媽媽說爸爸媽媽什麼比草原還大?海洋啊海洋比草原還大那什麼比海洋還大呢?"},{"start":157.776,"end":160.778,"text":"如果人民不服一審判決,他可不可以向高等法院申請上訴?"},{"start":188.593,"end":191.536,"text":"李律師說可以,李律師呢?好,那我請教一下秘書長"},{"start":215.782,"end":240.848,"text":"民主黨,那如果我對於憲法法庭所做的釋憲判決,我不接受,我有不服從的餘地嗎?本身在185號本來他就要尊重...要尊重,不是要尊重,要遵行啊!你說稍微尊重,你說為邊制庭,你別忘了啊,你是公務員啊,你要不要克尊憲法?憲法法庭的判決要不要遵守?"},{"start":241.772,"end":243.794,"text":"請問,如果我們對這個事件判決,我們還是不滿意,它有沒有可能變更?有沒有可能變更?"},{"start":263.871,"end":266.713,"text":"我問鍾秘書長,事先判決有沒有可能變更?只有事先機關能夠修訂憲判見解,對不對?我是問你嘛,是不是只有事先機關能夠修訂憲判見解?"},{"start":285.683,"end":297.956,"text":"你同不同意?我要這樣說明,因為剛才的邏輯上我還沒說完嘛我問你答嘛你問答我也必須要答回來是不是只有四線機關能夠修訂憲判見解?"},{"start":309.13,"end":328.336,"text":"原則上是啊,他可以做補充的解釋。好,來,那林律師呢?是沒錯,其實是我們大法院很多事務上的問題。我們來看一下,98年4至656號解釋認為說,欸,要求人家登報強制道歉是合憲的。但是呢,到110年憲判2號呢,說什麼?他說,欸,這個是違憲的。兩位律師同意這樣的一個憲判見解的變遷嗎?就是過去是認為合憲,後來認為不合憲。"},{"start":337.098,"end":364.07,"text":"這個部分的話大法官如果認為說因為時空背景或者是對於條文的理解說憲法價值有所調整的話還是可以做那李律師呢是同意同意同意齁來周秘書長你覺得可不可以以這次的例來講以這個例子來講以這個例來講這一次的憲法裁判來說我不是做憲法裁判我是問你98年的4字110年的憲判變更你覺得有沒有道理"},{"start":365.44,"end":394.284,"text":"我是這樣說,這樣這一次就把3號、5號解釋了我沒有問你3號、5號啦,我問你這一個案例啦我問你到98年的6、5、6後面110的憲判2號你認為大法官可不可以坐上辯簽可不可以我就問你可不可以嘛你要逃避什麼這個憲法辯簽可不可以嘛你問我是要先跟你說明你不用講前面我沒有問你都不問你不用說明啊我是問你這個可不可以"},{"start":395.296,"end":416.57,"text":"我個人是認為他可以改變的可以的好謝謝就是這樣簡單嘛只有事先機關能夠修訂他的憲判見解好我們看一下看今天我們看到國民黨主席說什麼他說因為對國會改革的態度列為我們國民黨接下來大法官人事案的審判標準判決標準"},{"start":419.451,"end":434.512,"text":"好像老師說看到班上很多同學蹺課對道場的同學大罵你們這些同學都不認真好奇怪喔憲判9113憲判9是現在大法官跟未來送來的7個大法官被提名什麼關係啊"},{"start":437.764,"end":450.187,"text":"請問兩位律師來李律師你認為朱主席說他把這個說以後的大法官要嚴審難道是要挑他合意的大法官去改變不合他意的憲判結果嗎你認為有沒有這樣的可能這個我不清楚對好很好很好來那個林律師你覺得他是意思是說我要因為我對這個憲判結果不滿意以後的大法官我要看他對國會改革的態度"},{"start":465.427,"end":467.31,"text":"請問一下兩位律師普通人敗訴可以換法官嗎?"},{"start":484.414,"end":499.393,"text":"好 不行是吧 林律師普通人民辦事處該犯法官不行周民總我要告訴你齁國民黨啊只要憲判他不合他意啊他可以後面來犯法官啊國民黨不只比人民還大比你我的想像大"},{"start":500.734,"end":528.214,"text":"只有你想不到沒有他國會多數做不到的好我們現在看來我們直接來看內容這是憲法法庭的判決呢指一個主要的國情報告藐視國會人事審查聽證權調查權這裡面呢有的是違憲有的是部分違憲我就不再一一細數啦來我們來一下國情報告是你請我願嗎剛剛我們秘書長說現在國情報告是總統主動喔立法院只能被動這是憲判的意思嗎是不是這樣你剛剛是這樣講"},{"start":530.686,"end":557.555,"text":"什麼沒錯什麼是只有總統主動根本是雙方都可以表示但是接不接受在於對方總統可以硬要來立法院報告嗎可不可以總委我這樣報告好不好因為他是被動的情況因為兩方都沒有憲法的意義我先問你嘛總統要來報告立法院可不可以不接受可以可以立法院邀請總統報告總統可不可以不接受"},{"start":559.352,"end":583.605,"text":"什麼叫已經沒有,也是可以嘛不是違憲啦,來我們看一下喔來兩位大律師,剛剛我們有一個條文齁其實憲法,我們立法呢,第15條之一原條文是寫德啊但是修改之後呢,都變成因啦15條之一為什麼大法院說要判,說它違憲把德改成因李律師你的看法呢"},{"start":587.103,"end":605.226,"text":"我覺得問題點應該是在定義的問題如果我們不用主被動來說我覺得關鍵是在於沒有強制性沒有強制力嘛 對不對那林律師呢你認為原來憲判說15條之一不合違憲主要是把原來的15條之一的德改成因"},{"start":606.607,"end":622.412,"text":"呃對我可以簡單講一點點齁因為這個部分其實會涉及到大法官在談這件事情的根本的原因他主要是在確保權利分立的部分是的他涉及到憲法機關的時候他認為憲法機關的權利義務應該由憲法來定而不是由立法院來定是的"},{"start":623.352,"end":646.023,"text":"所以在這一次之所以會被認為是違憲的狀況是因為立法院透過立法院職權行使法去增加憲法機關本來在憲法上所沒有的義務好來周民長聽清楚了齁這次會因為違憲是因為修法呢把增加了憲法機關沒有的義務好來我先問你我們立法院7月16號有沒有決議要邀請總統來做國情報告"},{"start":648.547,"end":663.077,"text":"第一件事7月16號有啊我們願會做人決議啊有沒有那黨團協商我剛剛已經報告了有啦有決議嘛對不對我是跟你跟委員報告有沒有決議有做決議很好有做決議但是現在15條之後的第一項已經違憲了已經沒有案可積了所以如果立法院邀總統來還要再做一次決議囉沒有決議的只有第15條之後的第二項去處理"},{"start":677.513,"end":684.123,"text":"現在我們還是可以邀請他啊我們可以根據我們憲法徵求條文可以邀請他來只是他同不同意他的事情啊對不對"},{"start":686.994,"end":687.895,"text":"是不是這樣?來李律師?是不是?"},{"start":717.299,"end":741.916,"text":"強制性而且不能指定範圍那林律師呢對我的理解是因為沒有強制性可是是可以邀請的對好那我們接下來往下看所以呢我們來看一下秘書長你不要忘了啦你仔細看啦3月21號你自己的對本委員的報告你說什麼前階委員提案就是指翁委員的提案啦現行總統國情報告有所不同除了將德改成因"},{"start":742.737,"end":765.318,"text":"一而語前述憲法正條文第4條第3用語不符啊你也講了嘛我們的修法就是把德改成因所以你就暗示了還有呢你說是不是說國情報告的詢答方式美國、法國未見才及時問答你就告訴大家啦其他國家也沒有及時問答你有沒有這樣講過"},{"start":766.619,"end":767.34,"text":"李律師憲判9"},{"start":791.013,"end":803.559,"text":"他說這個調查權是不是限定於院會不得交由委員會來行使來請問李律師好了李律師你比較近沒有錯嘛李律師你認為未來我們委員會可不可以行使調查權委員會要以院會的決議行之好秘書長"},{"start":814.332,"end":842.554,"text":"這是我們未來要對特定的議題啊來判斷有沒有重大關聯這是我們後續修法上必須研究的好 那我請教一下目前我們已經成立哪些調查小組委員會成集我剛才已經報告過已經是交通跟經濟啊好 你我問你你跟他報告我現在問你你跟我講啊有交通跟經濟好不好那這兩個委員這兩個委員成立的調查組還能運作嗎我會請幕僚跟召集委報告報告什麼可不可以運作"},{"start":843.763,"end":861.864,"text":"他會依照憲政的觀念去跟他報告你要我要問你我先是問你嘛可不可以有沒有效要不要繼續運作我只能跟中委員報告照我們的幕僚會依照憲法的意志來跟高級委員會報告你的上次的報告也講了那可不可以繼續運作"},{"start":864.107,"end":864.307,"text":"人事審查規定合憲?"},{"start":883.035,"end":898.288,"text":"日程的規定要不得少於一個月要五天前這個有沒有合憲程序上並沒有違憲很好 程序上沒有違憲所以所以不能消息的不審查或是黨派委員全部否決那如果說是這樣做的話有沒有違憲"},{"start":900.384,"end":908.15,"text":"好 來我們看一下接下來我們本院要做的人事同意書面提問、公聽報告、詢問、表決新法下這些沒有違憲的部分的審查時間較長有沒有 你們已經評估要花多少時間了 有沒有評估過"},{"start":928.919,"end":947.31,"text":"因為他剛才我報告過因為他婚別所以我們真的要計算幕僚沒有權利跟你一定要確定哪裡我們會有作用的我問你什麼時間點我是說流程需要花多少時間可不可以先算一下可能要花兩個月還是花多少最少的時間有沒有算過要按麥克風啦"},{"start":951.465,"end":952.105,"text":"兩位律師,你認為這次憲判的理由書當中"},{"start":976.113,"end":998.593,"text":"憲法法庭認為我們這次的擴權法案立法程序有沒有瑕疵請問林律師你認為在憲判主文當中有沒有說有瑕疵從憲判主文沒有特別提到可是你看理由的部分的話他其實是有具體的提到他認為是有瑕疵有在71段73段跟75段那李律師呢你認為憲法法庭是不是認為我們這個立法有瑕疵"},{"start":999.841,"end":1016.377,"text":"立法程序有瑕疵只是沒有到出憲法程度。對,很好。秘書長,你是不是同意雖有瑕疵但未到違憲的程度?呃,我不認為。呃,我不認為。啊,你是認為違憲?呃,我不認為,因為你要問我的說法。對啊,我說是不是有瑕疵但未達違憲的程度,你說你不認為,那認為你是認為違憲喔?"},{"start":1017.458,"end":1037.938,"text":"我是這樣認為 國會有自立的規則國立有自己定定的規則所以有沒有瑕疵沒有瑕疵我個人認為沒有瑕疵OK好 你個人認為沒有瑕疵不要忘了 你說你要克尊憲法憲判只有四憲機關能夠變更請你記住你剛剛講的話謝謝 我剛才講過的問題主要的結論"},{"start":1043.593,"end":1063.816,"text":"請準備議事規程的日程．對於人事案處理．一週內提給本會．讓我們了解根據新法未迴憲的部分．最低下限要做的施程．可以嗎．好．那至於第二個說要檢討可能的議事瑕疵．既然你不認同．不接受．不服從．不認為你必須按照公務人員誓詞當中克遵憲法．那我也沒有你的辦法．謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時44分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請周秘書長，還有兩位律師，請林律師跟李律師。"],["主席：請周秘書長、兩位律師。"],["周秘書長萬來：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。秘書長，你知不知道我們立法委員就任的時候要宣誓，有沒有？要嘛。我知道你當過考試委員，考試委員就職的時候要不要宣誓？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然要嘛。那你知道我們的誓詞是什麼嗎？你知道立法委員的誓詞是什麼嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：剛才吳委員有提出來，我也稍微看了一下……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你看了？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：余誓以至誠，恪遵法令，對不對？你認為這個誓詞我有沒有同意？我有同意，在場的每位立委都有同意，對不對？你知道「恪遵法令」的法令有沒有包括憲法？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。你就職了，你現在是公務員，你是政務官，是不是？你擔任常任文官的時候，公務員要不要宣誓？"],["周秘書長萬來：公務員沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：公務員沒有宣誓嗎？公務員有宣誓的誓詞喔，要不要我背給你聽？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：余誓以至誠，恪遵憲法，效忠國家。你有沒有宣誓過？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有在當場宣誓……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，但是這個誓詞你知道吧？你要不要恪遵憲法，效忠國家？你說要或不要。"],["周秘書長萬來：我要跟鍾委員說明……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你就說要或不要嘛，這麼簡單的誓詞，你都經歷過了嘛。"],["周秘書長萬來：幾乎所有的誓詞都會寫這幾個字……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，這個誓詞是寫來看的，還是寫來遵守的？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然，所有的公務人員一定是要遵守憲法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：恪遵憲法，效忠國家，你同意嘛！包括你嘛，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然也一樣，當然包括大家，包括鍾委員也在內啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是立法委員，我是恪遵國家法令，盡忠職守，當然，這個法令包括憲法，對不對？所以我們在場的每一位，只要是立法委員，只要是公務員，都要恪遵憲法，效忠國家，你同意嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，謝謝。我們請教兩位律師，這個問題比較年輕，兩位律師比較年輕。在20年前有一個廣告，就是一個小朋友問爸爸媽媽：「爸爸媽媽，什麼比草原還大？」，爸媽回答：「海洋啊，海洋比草原還大」；小朋友問：「那什麼比海洋還大呢？」，爸媽回答：「天空比海洋還大」；小朋友問：「那什麼比天空還大？」，爸媽回答：「想像力比天空還大」；小朋友又問：「那什麼比想像還大呢？」，廣告說：「我們家的炸雞比你想像的還大」。你們看過這個廣告沒有？沒有，兩位都很年輕，因為這個廣告是20年前的事情了。我們往下看，請問林律師，如果人民不服一審判決，他可不可以向高等法院聲請上訴，可以嗎？"],["林律師俊宏：一審判決可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問李律師，如果我不服二審判決，我可不可以向最高法院聲請上訴，通常情況之下？"],["李律師荃和：通常情況可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問兩位，如果我不服三審判決，我可不可以聲請憲法法庭做釋憲，如果我認為法令違憲或法官的判決違憲，可不可以？"],["林律師俊宏：依照憲法訴訟法規定的話是可以的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：林律師說可以，李律師呢？"],["李律師荃和：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請教一下秘書長，如果我對於憲法法庭所做的釋憲判決我不接受，我有不服從的餘地嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：本身在185號本來就要尊重……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是要尊重，是要遵行啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：它有拘束力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你說稍微尊重，你說未便自提，你不要忘了你是公務員啊！你要不要恪遵憲法？憲法法庭的判決要不要遵守？要不要？"],["周秘書長萬來：鍾委員，我要這樣跟你報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不用，你告訴我要不要嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：這個剛才我已經說過，當然必然要啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，可以了。我先問你……"],["周秘書長萬來：你要這樣說，我沒辦法答復……"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在是我問你啊！請問如果我們對這個釋憲判決還是不滿意，它有沒有可能變更？有沒有可能變更？請問周秘書長，釋憲判決有沒有可能變更？"],["周秘書長萬來：它沒辦法變更，它是最終的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：只有釋憲機關能夠修訂憲判見解，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：跟鍾委員報告，你如果這樣，我沒辦法答復你……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是問你嘛！我是問你嘛！我問你是不是只有釋憲機關能夠修訂憲判見解？你同不同意？"],["周秘書長萬來：我要這樣說明，因為剛才的邏輯上，我還沒說完……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問你答嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：不是！你問我答，我也必須要答復啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問你是不是只有釋憲機關能夠修憲？"],["周秘書長萬來：你不給我答復，你沒讓我答復，我沒辦法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你旁邊站。請兩位律師，我請教李律師，是不是只有釋憲機關能夠修訂憲判見解？"],["李律師荃和：原則上是啊！它可以做補充的解釋。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，林律師呢？"],["林律師俊宏：是，沒錯，其實我們大法官有很多實務上的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下，98年釋字656號解釋認為要求人民要登報強制道歉是合憲的；但是到110年憲判2號說這個是違憲的，兩位律師同意這樣一個憲判見解的變遷嗎？過去認為是合憲，後來認為是不合憲。"],["林律師俊宏：這個部分的話，大法官如果認為因為時空背景或者是對於條文的理解或憲法價值有所調整的話，還是可以做補充。"],["鍾委員佳濱：李律師呢？"],["李律師荃和：是，同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：周秘書長，你覺得可不可以？"],["周秘書長萬來：以這一次的例子來講……"],["鍾委員佳濱：以這個例子來講……"],["周秘書長萬來：以這一次的憲法裁判來說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不是問這次的憲法裁判，我是問你98年釋字、110年的憲判變更，你覺得有沒有道理？"],["周秘書長萬來：我是這樣說，像這一次就把325號解釋全部補充……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我沒有問你325號，我問你這一個案例，我問你98年釋字656號，後面110年憲判2號，你認為大法官可不可以做這樣的變遷？可不可以？"],["周秘書長萬來：不是，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我只有問你可不可以？你要逃避什麼？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不是逃避啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個憲判變遷可不可以？"],["周秘書長萬來：你問我，我是要先跟你說明這個情況……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不用講前面，我沒有問你的部分你不用說明，我是問你這個可不可以？"],["周秘書長萬來：我個人認為他是可以改變。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以的，謝謝，就是這麼簡單，只有釋憲機關能夠修訂它的憲判見解。我們往下看，今天我們看到國民黨主席說，對國會改革的態度列為我們國民黨接下來大法官人事案的審判標準、判決標準，好像老師看到班上很多同學蹺課，對到場的同學大罵你們這些同學都不認真，好奇怪喔！113憲判9是現在的大法官，與未來送來的7個大法官被提名人有什麼關係啊？請問兩位律師，李律師，你認為朱主席說以後的大法官要嚴審，難道是要挑他合意的大法官去改變不合他意的憲判結果嗎？你認為有沒有這樣的可能？"],["李律師荃和：這個我不清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！林律師呢？你覺得他的意思是因為他對這個憲判結果不滿意，他要看以後的大法官對國會改革的態度？"],["林律師俊宏：我也不清楚朱主席的想法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：周秘書長，你清不清楚？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不瞭解他所說的狀況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你不清楚，沒關係。我們來猜，請問一下兩位律師，普通人敗訴可以換法官嗎？李律師，普通人民法庭敗訴可以換法官嗎？"],["李律師荃和：沒辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不行，是不是？林律師，普通人民敗訴可以換法官？"],["林律師俊宏：不行！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不行。周秘書長，我要告訴你，國民黨只要憲判不合它意，它可以後面來換法官！國民黨不只比人民還大，比你、我的想像大，只有你想不到，沒有它國會多數做不到的。我們往下仔細來看內容，這次憲法法庭的判決幾個主要的項目是國情報告、藐視國會、人事審查、聽證權、調查權，這裡面有的是違憲，有的是部分違憲，我就不再一一細述。我們來看一下，國情報告是你情我願嗎？剛剛我們秘書長說，現在國情報告是總統主動，立法院只能被動，這是憲判的意旨嗎？是不是這樣子？你剛剛是不是這樣講？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒錯，它說兩……"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼沒錯？什麼是只有總統主動？根本是雙方都可以表示，但是接不接受在於對方，總統可以硬要來立法院報告嗎？可不可以？"],["周秘書長萬來：鍾委員，我這樣報告好不好？因為他是被動的情況，因為兩方面都沒有憲法的義務……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我先問你嘛！總統要來報告，立法院可不可以不接受？"],["周秘書長萬來：可以！它不同意嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以。立法院邀請總統報告，總統可不可以不接受？"],["周秘書長萬來：已經沒有了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼叫已經沒有了？也是可以嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：那項已經違憲了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是違憲啦！我們來看一下，兩位大律師，剛剛我們有一個條文，其實立法院職權行使法第十五條之一依憲法的原條文是寫「得」啊！但是在修改之後都變成「應」啊！為什麼大法官說要判第十五條之一違憲？把「得」改成「應」，李律師你的看法呢？"],["李律師荃和：我覺得問題點應該是在定義的問題，如果我們不用主、被動來說，我覺得關鍵是在於沒有強制性這件事情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有強制力嘛，對不對？林律師呢？你認為原來憲判說第十五條之一違憲，主要是第十五條之一把原來的「得」改成「應」？"],["林律師俊宏：對！我可以簡單講一點點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請說。"],["林律師俊宏：因為這個部分其實會涉及到大法官在談這件事情的根本原因，主要是在確保權力分立的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的！"],["林律師俊宏：它涉及到憲法機關的時候，他認為憲法機關的權利義務應該由憲法來定，而不是由立法院來定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的！所以……"],["林律師俊宏：他們把它用法律來定，在這一次之所以會被認為是違憲的狀況，是因為立法院透過立法院職權行使法去增加憲法機關本來在憲法上所沒有的義務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，周秘書長聽清楚了喔！這次會違憲是因為修法，增加了憲法機關沒有的義務。好，我先問你，立法院7月16號有沒有決議要邀請總統來做國情報告？"],["周秘書長萬來：7月16號……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有啊！我們院會做成決議了，有沒有？"],["周秘書長萬來：黨團協商，我剛剛已經報告過了……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有啦！有決議嘛，對不對？有沒有決議？"],["周秘書長萬來：我跟委員再報告，有做決議……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！有做決議。"],["周秘書長萬來：但是現在第十五條之二的第一項已經違憲了，已經沒有案可稽了！"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果立法院邀總統來，還要再做一次決議囉？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有決議了，只有第十五條之二的第二項去處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在我們還是可以邀請他啊！我們可以根據憲法增修條文邀請他來啊！只是他同不同意，是他的事情，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果依照立法院職權行使法第十五條之二的第一項、第二項，請鍾委員可以仔細去瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我看過了，第十五條之二的問題，是不是在說你不能指定範圍啦？"],["周秘書長萬來：是！兩個都沒有憲法上的義務，在立法院也沒有權力去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長，我們不能指定範圍說什麼國家大政方針、重要政策，不能指定範圍啦！請教兩位律師，你認為憲判的意思是不是在說我們可以邀請總統，但不能指定報告的範圍，是不是這樣？李律師，是不是？"],["李律師荃和：沒有強制性，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：強制性不明顯，不能指定範圍。林律師呢？"],["林律師俊宏：對！我的理解也是因為沒有強制性，可是是可以邀請的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對！好，我們接下來往下看。所以我們來看一下……"],["周秘書長萬來：是你瞭解嘛……"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長，你不要忘了啦！你仔細看啦！在3月21號，你自己對本委員會的報告，你說什麼？前揭委員提案就是指翁委員的提案啦！現行總統國情報告有所不同，除了將「得」改成「應」，而與前述憲法增修條文第四條第三項用語不符，你也講了嘛！我們的修法就是把「得」改成「應」，所以你就暗示了，還有你是不是說國情報告的詢答方式，美國、法國未見採即時問答，你就告訴大家啦！其他國家也沒有即時問答，你有沒有這樣講過？這是不是你的報告？"],["周秘書長萬來：這一個國情報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我先問你，這本報告是不是你出的？"],["周秘書長萬來：這是我寫的，沒錯！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，OK，可以了、可以了！我們接下來……"],["周秘書長萬來：你要讓我講，你這樣我沒辦法答復你。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們接下來……"],["周秘書長萬來：你……"],["鍾委員佳濱：本來好好地、我怎麼問，你就怎麼答嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：不，你……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我就問這份報告是不是你寫的嘛！你說「是」，可以了！"],["周秘書長萬來：是，但我要說明我為什麼當時的寫法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，可以了、可以了！","我們未來如何確保調查權合憲？我請教兩位律師，來，李律師，憲判字第9號說這個調查權是不是限定於院會，不得交由委員會來行使？來，請問林律師好了，林律師，你離麥克風比較近。"],["林律師俊宏：沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯嘛！","李律師呢？你認為未來我們委員會可不可以行使調查權？"],["李律師荃和：要以院會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要以院會決議行之。","好，秘書長，我們未來要對特定的議題判斷有沒有重大關聯，這是我們後續修法上必須研究的。那我請教一下，目前我們已經成立哪些委員會層級的調查小組？"],["周秘書長萬來：我剛剛已經報告過了，已經成立的就是交通跟經濟啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問你，你說剛剛報告！","我現在問你，你跟我講啊！有交通跟經濟，好不好？","那這兩個委員會成立的調查小組還能運作嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我會請幕僚跟召集委員報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：報告什麼？可不可以運作？"],["周秘書長萬來：他會依照憲政的觀念去跟他報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要問你……","我現在是問你嘛！可不可以？有沒有效？要不要繼續運作？"],["周秘書長萬來：我只能跟鍾委員報告，我們的幕僚會依照憲法的意旨去跟召集委員報告怎麼處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是公務員，你要恪遵憲法，你上次的報告就講了，那可不可以繼續運作？可不可以繼續運作？"],["周秘書長萬來：憲法法庭有做一個決議，我們幕僚會依照所做的這個裁判跟召集委員……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你就是閃躲嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，我沒有閃躲！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是問你的意見！那你認為可不可以運作？"],["周秘書長萬來：是要跟召集委員報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大家都看得出來了啦！你的態度很明顯啦！","人事審查的規定有沒有合憲？日程的規定不得少於一個月、要五天前，這個有沒有合憲？"],["周秘書長萬來：程序上並沒有違憲。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！程序上沒有違憲。","所以，不能消極地不審查或以黨派為由全部否決，那如果這樣子做的話，有沒有違憲？"],["周秘書長萬來：這裡所謂憲法所不許，當然會按照這個狀況去處理。我只跟鍾委員報告實務，和監察院有關的632號解釋說是憲法所不許以後，監察院也是六年沒有經過……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，接下來本院行使人事同意權要書面提問，要開公聽會，還要詢答和表決，在新法之下，這些沒有違憲部分的人事審查時間較長，你們有沒有評估需要花多少時間？有沒有評估過？"],["周秘書長萬來：剛才我報告過，因為它「分別」，所以我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：正在計算？"],["周秘書長萬來：幕僚沒有權力說一定要確定什麼時間，我們會有作業，交給黨團協商去做決定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我沒有問你什麼時間點，我是說流程需要花多少時間，可不可以先算一下，可能要花兩個月還是要多少時間？最少的時間有沒有算過？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為最主要在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你要按麥克風啦！"],["周秘書長萬來：主要在分別的處理的時候到底要多久，不過它有規定在一個月內……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最低的時間嘛！對，請你把最低的下限時間算出來，好不好？一個星期內給本委員會。"],["周秘書長萬來：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，可以，謝謝，我們往下一題走。"],["周秘書長萬來：議事處高處長，你就把以前那個整理資料給……"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩位律師，你認為這次憲判的理由書當中，憲法法庭認為我們這次的擴權法案立法程序有沒有瑕疵，請問林律師，你認為在憲判主文當中有沒有說有瑕疵？"],["林律師俊宏：從憲判主文沒有特別提到，可是你看理由的部分的話，它其實是有具體地提到它認為是有瑕疵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，有，在71段、73段跟75段，那李律師呢？你認為憲法法庭是不是認為我們這個立法有瑕疵？"],["李律師荃和：立法程序有瑕疵，只是沒有到牴觸憲法的程度。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，很好，秘書長，你是不是同意雖有瑕疵但未到違憲的程度？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不認為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是認為違憲？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不認為，因為你要問我的實話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！我說是不是有瑕疵但未達違憲的程度，你說你不認為，那你是認為違憲囉？"],["周秘書長萬來：我是這樣認為，國會有自律的規則，國會有自己訂定的規則……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以有沒有瑕疵？沒有瑕疵？"],["周秘書長萬來：我個人認為沒有瑕疵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，好，你個人認為沒瑕疵，不要忘了，你說你要恪遵憲法，憲判只有釋憲機關能夠變更，請你記住你剛剛講的話，接下來……"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝，我剛才講過……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我沒有問你。最後的結論，請準備議事期程的日程對於人事案處理，一週內提給本會，讓我們了解根據新法未違憲的部分，最低下限是多少時程，可以嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：可以，沒有問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那至於第二個說要檢討可能的議事瑕疵，既然你不認同、不接受、不服從、不認為你必須按照公務人員誓詞當中的恪遵憲法，那我也沒有你的辦法，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝鍾佳濱委員的詢答。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：好，接下來有請吳召委宗憲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-9","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","林思銘","沈發惠","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","吳宗憲","羅智強","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","張啓楷","賴士葆","謝龍介","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-28"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共6案；二、邀請立法院秘\n書長列席就「『113年憲判字第9號判決』，國會行使職權之困境與未來」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}