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你們的說法 剛剛吳司堯的說法是說我們就像你剛剛也說我同意嘛 你剛剛也這樣講 那我的意思是說我們從來沒有一個人同意過 所以你們不能講這種話 我今天在論的只是是非"},{"start":146.258,"end":168.559,"text":"我們沒有人講過這句話我也沒有講過這句話所以請我們都是同事可不可以麻煩你們在講話的時候不要造謠亂說話我今天是希望這樣就像我不會在外面去亂講你沒有講過的話一樣你剛剛這個畫面有說你不同意排公聽會剛剛講的你也不同意好這樣可以了我同意我知道了你剛剛有講啊不是啊我跟你講齁"},{"start":169.858,"end":197.144,"text":"我覺得你們最奇怪的事情就是說我沒有講過的話請你聽我講這句話嘛你說你要排公聽會我說那是你的事情跟我在那邊跟大家說我不要排公聽會這兩個國文這麼難懂嗎剛剛就在剛才一分鐘前你就說你也不同意我這個心情排公聽會啊你有講啊"},{"start":198.223,"end":199.964,"text":"你剛剛是講這句話 你說你不同意我這週排公聽會"},{"start":226.704,"end":244.64,"text":"我沒有講這個話啦好吧那我跟你講沒關係就回去聽嘛我如果我口誤我道歉但我在這邊跟你講我剛剛從頭到我並沒有說我不同意三個字我的意思很簡單就是你要排那是你的事情跟我們無關我從上個禮拜就講過了所以請不要"},{"start":246.428,"end":271.774,"text":"各位委員 大家都是同事請不要造謠或亂扯一些事情這真的沒有這個必要沒關係 這真的沒有這個必要那我也不是對今天到場的兩位律師有意見我爸爸也是律師我對律師完全沒有仇恨值但是我們都知道律師收錢辦事天經地義所以一個民事庭裡面對同一個法律關係兩兆的律師會講不一樣的見解請問這是會議詢問嗎"},{"start":274.915,"end":275.015,"text":"請周秘書長"},{"start":292.728,"end":299.85,"text":"我還是這樣講啦我是認為說把別人的話去抄議或者是把別人的話我就睜眼說瞎話你今天已經到這邊來已經是國家最高的民意機關了到這邊來還會去做這些事情我說"},{"start":316.397,"end":340.993,"text":"至少我個人會對自己要求我不這麼做至於其他的同事他們要這麼做我們也無能為力因為個人修養是在於個人至少我就說我很堅持一件事情我如果口誤說錯話我會道歉但是我自己的見解怎麼樣從上週到本週我從來沒有講過一句話說你要開不開我說你要怎麼排"},{"start":342.394,"end":349.4,"text":"趙偉要怎麼排那個就是趙偉的事我是趙偉我排我的你是趙偉你排你其實我一直這樣講嘛那至於說"},{"start":352.108,"end":355.229,"text":"我至少我到今天為止我在這裡各位委員各位同事我也從來沒有說請把你們的話去抄議然後回過頭來攻擊你們至少我會做這樣子啦"},{"start":380.545,"end":401.841,"text":"我覺得讀書人還是要有讀書人的風骨讀書人不能去做那種事情那我剛剛質詢請律師來的這個事情其實我是說我對律師真的沒有任何仇恨因為我從小就在律師的家庭長大那律師本來就是為他的當事人講話這也是一定要的但是我只是覺得說如果這樣子的話"},{"start":403.595,"end":431.946,"text":"立法委員應該自己要有一點自信而不是說今天質詢什麼可能覺得是不是自己專業度不夠然後要請律師來幫忙一起圍毆官員這個是大可不必我還相信每個律師或每個官員都是學有專精都是社會上面的人才但是還是這樣我還是依據立法委員該做什麼事而去做那其實"},{"start":433.135,"end":455.391,"text":"這次的憲判字我還是有個感覺就是大法官真的打造出全世界民主國家裡面最弱的國會真的是最弱的國會這對國家是福還是禍這個我也不知道我也不敢下定論至少我知道一件事情就是民主政治就是責任政治為基礎"},{"start":456.744,"end":475.724,"text":"所以民主他本來就要建立在責任政治之上那如果有一個人是有權無責那就是這是這個其實在獨裁國家才會展現但今天我們看到就是說拿了五權憲法一堆東西在那邊繞啊繞然後就是希望說把一些人能夠獨特出他是有權力但是沒有責任"},{"start":477.265,"end":503.11,"text":"其實大法官這次似乎一直在朝這個方向去走那甚至你今天你自己去看大法官裡面的一些不同意見書啦其實有些大法官他是有一些不一樣的想法甚至在2016年以前民進黨對於這次國會改革法案的提出如果這個東西是明顯就像民進黨整天講說是禍國殃民違憲的話那顧立雄啊林佳龍他們的版本是他也要出來道歉"},{"start":505.394,"end":531.244,"text":"我認為不是這樣 我覺得我們今天所作所為還是要思考怎麼樣對下一代真的有幫助那才是重點 而不是說我們今天志祺的位置怎麼樣尤其是這一次我們對於國會對於政府的監督這在民主國家的國會是常態但放到台灣卻變成危險我想秘書長你一定很清楚這個我先跟秘書長請教一下"},{"start":533.653,"end":561.331,"text":"這一次的民進黨總是告訴青鳥說是他對我攻擊最大的兩件事第一個說我們主持會議黑箱立法沒有討論沒有民主第二個說我們什麼不懂什麼叫反質詢就這兩個東西這次大法官都認定至少認定核限我不要說大法官預約數外裁判預約講了一些什麼程序怎麼樣那個我不管那至少在我看來民進黨就是騙了他的支持者嘛"},{"start":562.071,"end":580.702,"text":"沒有黑箱他說有黑箱阿有討論他說沒有討論阿我想請問一下你部長這次憲判字有認為說我們這次的那個修法的程序有違憲嗎我剛才特別剛才中委員在詢問的時候我有特別說明"},{"start":582.844,"end":597.706,"text":"依照國會治理的規則當然本身其他的機關對於國會治理當然他就要極簡就不應該去說明但就以我所理解的例子當時我已經在當考試委員"},{"start":601.715,"end":626.512,"text":"監察院院長陳菊在被監察院人事同意權的時候賴香林委員曾經申請釋憲當時也是非常紛亂也沒有經過之前刑事法的規範當時的大法官15個當中目前有11個在當時他認為這一個本身是國會治理不宜受理"},{"start":627.415,"end":628.896,"text":"因為舉手表決不可能會記載藝術力當中是哪一個人贊成或反對不過"},{"start":655.253,"end":672.953,"text":"依照一里丸一式規則35條的規定舉手表決本來就是這一個表決的方式之一那我要在另外一個跟吳委員報告我所學的概念修憲的程序跟法律的審議程序是不一樣的"},{"start":673.934,"end":689.801,"text":"所以499號跟312號解釋是完全不是相同的謝謝秘書長我想說這部分其實非常的清楚啦所有的程序其實至少我組織之下我有把所有程序走完因為我自己從以前過往的經驗我是非常重視程序正義的"},{"start":690.461,"end":717.612,"text":"我們自己學法也都知道程序是優先於實體所以所有的程序我們都走完那大法官至少也認定說至少沒有違憲的問題那至於說還有人還想說什麼黑箱立法跟沒有討論沒有民主我覺得算了政治語言我也不多說但是這一次其實討論裡面講最多話的就是民進黨的立法委員們他們講了1068分鐘這我們已經有量化出來遠遠超過其他的政黨"},{"start":718.976,"end":734.996,"text":"我也沒有辦法理解這樣另外我剛剛補充一個剛剛我們的中召委有問那兩個大律師就是說敗訴可以換法官應該是中召委不是吳思堯應該是中召委其實我必須講一個這可能對於輸送程序不是那麼了解敗訴都已經判決確定沒有換法官的問題"},{"start":735.917,"end":762.059,"text":"換法官只有在訴訟中申請迴避我這沒有別的意思我說這可能 總統剛才這邊口誤了一下我來跟大家解釋敗訴後沒有所謂換法官的問題這是一個很簡單的程序概念其實我們這一次我們看一下總統他可以任命行政院長到立法院做一些施政報告然後也可以設立一堆委員會還可以打電話罵部長但是現在的問題就出在說"},{"start":764.647,"end":790.904,"text":"這個總統是有權無責啊因為這次大法官憲判他直接引用行政院的申請書他說總統是對人民負責不是對立法院負責結果我們現在完全對他沒有任何沒有辦法去監督他那國內有非常多的議題啦結果我們現在也沒有辦法去了解他到底他心裡現在在想什麼那至於說來不來國情報告我覺得這個在國慶晚會他就可以講也不一定說一定要來這裡講"},{"start":792.912,"end":821.742,"text":"那這次詹森林大法官啊他離開我覺得就跟那兩位NCC委員離開的時候一樣說了一些真心話那這次有講一個很重要的點因為我國的總統他不是虛位元首啊所以不是虛位元首的話他本來就像我剛剛講的民主政治他必須要以責任政治當作基礎這是所有學法律學公法人都理解的一個罪A、B、C那剛剛吳宗憲委員其實他講了很多這個東西但他講的都是一些枝微末節"},{"start":822.822,"end":822.842,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":840.53,"end":862.011,"text":"這次詹姓大法官他所提的這個東西其實就是一個核心的問題因為我們今天面對的是一個有實權的總統但是我們對他卻毫無任何能夠監督他的方式那這一次憲判字也有講到說罷免案是要全民投票彈劾案是司法院大法官的憲法法庭審理"},{"start":863.012,"end":888.252,"text":"所以都不是立法院可以直接對總統行使的職權但是我必須要講提醒這些大法官們或他的信徒們憲法徵修條文第二條講到的罷免案跟彈劾案其實都是立法院或立法院提出的怎麼會跟立法院無關呢他怎麼會是隨便去扯那個什麼罷免案是全民投票彈劾案是憲法法庭審理所以跟立法院無關"},{"start":890.705,"end":892.666,"text":"這就是我們目前大法官希望國家設計出來的一個民主制度"},{"start":918.103,"end":936.281,"text":"那我覺得這樣下去,總統,台灣的總統就變成是超級皇帝了因為他可以做任何事情,但是沒有任何人可以對他怎麼樣那這一次,其實我們還有一個東西其實也是開民主倒車啦,我覺得"},{"start":938.902,"end":962.978,"text":"我們當初4至585號其實有提到一個就是說你違反協助調查義務就可以科與罰還結果585號有這個記載結果呢我們這一次卻更誇張的是你來你看喔你不來我可以科罰還結果你來了講謊話欸不可以罰所以這個邏輯在哪裡我不懂"},{"start":963.979,"end":983.586,"text":"民眾在外面的時候說謊要負責任在法庭拒絕後說謊要負責任結果官員到立法院來說謊完全不用負責任然後你再回過頭去看民進黨最愛的日本跟美國的設計模式所以"},{"start":984.816,"end":1005.573,"text":"我一直在想民進黨花太多時間在那邊製造風向去洗腦他自己的支持者其實如果今天一個負責任的修法態度你就把其他國家類似的民主國家的制度拿出來給大家看大家來比較我們在寫論文的時候各國的比較不是就是一個"},{"start":1006.494,"end":1006.514,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":1021.738,"end":1039.11,"text":"我剛剛提到的2016年以前這些東西很多都是民進黨這些前輩們所提出來的我自己在念書的時候我很崇拜他們這些理念就今天我們想要實踐的時候卻變成我們迴憲亂整卻被當初我崇拜的那些前輩們來說我們這樣做是錯的這個喔好那"},{"start":1049.344,"end":1077.889,"text":"這次蔡財臻大法官他其實也有提到這個啦他也是提到說不來可以罰來了說謊卻不可以罰連蔡大法官他也提出這個那甚至我們這次的修法搞到比585號更嚴格而且比325號也更限縮其實完全都在走一個民主的倒車啦這其實 這也都是讓我們其實看了很難過的一個地方"},{"start":1079.264,"end":1108.436,"text":"那我在這邊還跟秘書長提一個東西就是說這跟我們立法院有關其實這一次有說我們把那個官員移送監察院他說這個是違反權利分立事實上大家有沒有去看司法院可以移送考試院可以移送行政院可以移送那為什麼另外三個院移送就沒有違反權利分立呢而且這一次的"},{"start":1110.232,"end":1131.56,"text":"大法官曾大法官他也有提到他說這個所謂的移送是促使監察院窒息啊他說他認為說怎麼監大法官會直接認定這個違憲連曾大法官也覺得怎麼會認定這個違憲所以連自己大法官內部也都覺得不以為然嘛所以我就說"},{"start":1132.979,"end":1141.205,"text":"這次有人在那邊說什麼誰是違憲三保或什麼之類的那難道其他這幾位大法官是四保五保六保嗎?其實當然"},{"start":1142.908,"end":1166.911,"text":"這兩天都有人在問我這個問題那基本上我是不回答說什麼違憲三法我覺得法律本來就是一個各種學說的討論但是如果你把法律當成小說或是完全沒有法律概念的出來指責那其實任何法律人都不用覺得難過因為他就是回應他就是浪費生命而已所以我不認同這個他的這個想法那所以"},{"start":1167.984,"end":1192.535,"text":"我還是認為其實我們國家法規資料庫裡面能夠移送監察院的條文其實有15條有15條都可以移送但是呢這次卻認為只有立法院移送這個是違憲那這樣子是不是其他院移送的條文也應該認定違憲若依照這次大法官的這個那我想這是一個很持平的論斷所以我是拿其他的法規我們出來這樣子談"},{"start":1194.316,"end":1214.451,"text":"更何況說監察院這幾年的做法其實讓我們也都滿嘆為觀止的甚至有監察委員對於檢察官偵辦案件進行二度的彈劾一追再追其實這個才是真的有問題你監察權就直接介入檢察官偵辦案件"},{"start":1215.592,"end":1235.187,"text":"好吧那最後齁所以我想說雖然今天有很多委員都講超過時間很多但是我想我最後我還是提一個東西啦就是我還是回過頭去提到康大法官他之前在課堂上面所提的那個例子這在youtube上面或是很多法律學生都看過這個例子"},{"start":1236.664,"end":1255.049,"text":"他說五權憲法的運作其實就是你就把人品想像是五條狗的主人那這五條狗就是所謂的這五權那其實五權憲法的設計就是讓這五隻狗彼此互相咬對方但是都傷不了對方但是能夠互相的制衡"},{"start":1256.496,"end":1274.894,"text":"但如果今天有一條狗特別的強壯把另外四條狗都咬死了那改天他就回過頭來把主人吃掉這是湯大法官在學對學生上課的時候他所提到的因為我們不允許集權集權是非常恐怖的"},{"start":1275.595,"end":1289.187,"text":"今天為什麼世界上民主國家都是三權分立或我國五權分立他要的就是各權之間彼此的制衡而不是塑造出一個沒有任何能夠監督他的一個行政權今天不管誰執政"},{"start":1291.326,"end":1291.346,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":1307.991,"end":1334.993,"text":"這例子齁雖然說把五權用狗來形容可能有人會做文章但我就是如實的引用當大法官所舉的這例子我也希望說全民能夠了解五權彼此是要互相制衡而不是像今天走向這樣子今天如果走向這樣子改天如果有發生萬一發生政黨輪替下一個政黨也是很恐怖的用極權來統治這個國家這絕對是我們不願意見到的不管今天是我"},{"start":1335.794,"end":1336.074,"text":"主持人吳宗憲"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時2分）主席，我現在要做會議詢問。"],["主席：請。"],["吳委員宗憲：主要是翁委員剛剛有提到，就是這次請律師來……"],["主席：法律人士代表。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，沒問題，這部分我只要講一個啦，因為你剛剛跟他說上個禮拜我的作法嘛！對不對？我要先解釋一下，第一個，上個禮拜我們就刑事訴訟法在討論刑事訴訟法修法的問題的時候，全律會他們希望來表示意見，他們是希望來這邊表示意見，所以當天他們也是提了一個書面，你不能拿我的這個例子來說今天請律師來這邊陪著你們一搭一唱是用我當作例子，這完全不一樣的東西嘛！"],["主席：召委，你那天請的律師，我們沒辦法跟他一搭一唱！因為他根本沒有出現啊，一開始的時候沒有看到啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，他們來，不可能我們用像這樣子詢問的方式，所以你不能用我當例子好不好？"],["主席：尊重召委你上週的作法，我是說……"],["吳委員宗憲：不能用我……我跟你講，兩個不一樣的東西。"],["主席：我們是有這個……你是依照憲法第六十七條，我也是一樣。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，沒有錯……"],["主席：那就好。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我的意思是跟你說，你不要拿我為例說什麼我們上個禮拜也請，因為上個禮拜他們來，上個禮拜我們也不會說……"],["主席：上禮拜你也同意說讓我排公聽會啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：這個是第二件我要說的事情。"],["主席：好，請繼續。"],["吳委員宗憲：第二個，我覺得不管是你或吳思瑤，剛剛都在那邊亂講一些話，我覺得如果你們的記憶力這麼差，是不是可以去調一下上個禮拜我們開會的全部的全程來看，上個禮拜我一再說一件事情就是你要怎麼排，那是你家的事情，我不會干涉，跟我同意有什麼關係，我從來沒有認同你們排，甚至上禮拜五在院會，你希望我們簽同意，我也不同意啊！我說你自己去問傅總召啊……"],["主席：很好，夠了、夠了……"],["吳委員宗憲：你怎麼可以……你跟吳思瑤兩個在這邊亂扯說是我們同意你們這麼做。"],["主席：你不同意就好啦！不同意我們就不能排啦，所以本週四沒有排啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，你們的說法，剛剛吳思瑤的說法是說，就像你剛剛也說我同意嘛，你剛剛也這樣講，那我的意思是說，我們從來沒有一個人同意過，所以你們不能講這種話，我今天在論的只是是非，我們沒有人講過這句話，我也沒有講過這句話，我們都是同事，可不可以麻煩你們在講話的時候不要造謠亂說話，我今天是希望這樣。"],["主席：謝謝召委，吳召委，剛剛你有說……"],["吳委員宗憲：就像我不會在外面去亂講你沒有講過的話一樣。"],["主席：你剛剛的畫面有說你不同意排公聽會，剛剛講的，你也不同意，好，這樣可以了，我知道了，你剛剛有講啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，我跟你講，我覺得你們最奇怪的事情……"],["主席：你就說我好了啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦！你最奇怪的事情就是說，我們沒有講過的話……"],["主席：你沒有講過的話，剛剛你就有講啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那請你聽我講這句話，你說你要排公聽會，我說那是你的事情，跟在那邊跟大家說我不要排公聽會，這兩個國文這麼難懂嗎？"],["主席：就在剛才一分鐘前，你就說你也不同意我這個星期排公聽會，你有講啊！你剛剛有講喔！"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，我說……"],["主席：現在、現在，剛剛……"],["吳委員宗憲：我說你排不排公聽會是你的事情，上個禮拜我在會議中還講了我不是你的長官，不是我叫你要不要做，你要做什麼事情那是你的事，你是召委，你就排你的議程，我是召委，我就排我的議程，這個東西怎麼會變成是，上個禮拜我這樣子叫作同意你排公聽會，現在叫作我不同意你排公聽會，你知不知道你在講什麼啊？"],["主席：你剛剛是講這句話，你說你不同意我這週排公聽會。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有講這個話啦！好吧！沒關係，就回去聽嘛！如果我口誤，我道歉，但我在這邊跟你講，我剛剛從頭到尾，我並沒有說我不同意三個字，我的意思很簡單，就是你要排，那是你的事情，跟我們無關，我從上個禮拜就講過了，所以請不要……各位委員大家都是同事，請不要造謠或亂扯一些事情，這真的沒這個必要。"],["主席：我們讓影像說話，好不好？讓待會的錄影帶說話就好，OK！"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，這真的沒有這個必要，那我也不是對今天到場的兩位律師有意見，我爸爸也是律師，我對律師完全沒有仇恨值，但是我們都知道律師收錢辦事天經地義，所以一個民事庭裡面對同一個法律關係，兩造的律師會講不一樣的見解。"],["主席：請問這是會議詢問嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：你今天來這邊，沒關係，你今天來這邊這樣我真的不理解，所以我的會議詢問是到這邊為止。"],["主席：OK，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：麻煩周秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，我用我自己的時間，我還是覺得我還是很不……好，謝謝秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：吳委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝秘書長。我還是這樣講啦！我是認為把別人的話超譯，或者是把別人的話……我覺得睜眼說瞎話，你今天已經到這邊來，已經是國家最高的民意機關了，到這邊來還會去做這些事情，我說真的，至少我個人會對自己要求不這麼做，至於其他的同事他們要這麼做，那我們也無能為力啦！因為個人修養是在於個人啦！至少我就說我很堅持一件事情，我如果口誤說錯話，我會道歉，但是我自己的見解怎麼樣，從上週到本週，我從來沒有講過一句話說你要開不開，我說你要怎麼排，召委要怎麼排，那個就是召委的事，我是召委我排我的，你是召委你排你的，其實我一直這樣講嘛！至於剛剛我也沒有說你不能排或你要排你不能排，所以總是被超譯，這很辛苦！或是大家有興趣就是自己鬼扯完之後就剪那一段，然後在網路上面去洗地，我真的覺得沒有必要，就像至少我到今天為止，我在這裡，各位委員、各位同事，我也從來沒有說把你們的話去超譯，然後回過頭來攻擊你們，至少我會做這樣子啦！我覺得讀書人還是要有讀書人的風骨，讀書人不能去做那種事情，我剛剛質詢請律師來的這個事情，我是說我對律師真的沒有任何仇恨值，因為我從小就在律師的家庭長大，那律師本來就是為他的當事人講話，這也是一定要的，但是我只是覺得如果這樣子的話，立法委員應該自己要有一點自信啦！而不是說今天質詢什麼可能覺得是不是自己專業度不夠，然後要請律師來幫忙一起圍毆官員，這個大可不必，我還是相信每個律師或每個官員都是學有專精，都是社會上面的人才啦！但是還是這樣啦，我還是依據立法委員該做什麼事而去做。","其實這次的憲判字我還是有個感覺，就是大法官真的打造出全世界民主國家裡面最弱的國會，真的是最弱的國會啦！這對國家是福還是禍？這個我也不知道，我也不敢下定論，至少我知道一件事情就是，民主政治就是責任政治為基礎，所以民主本來就要建立在責任政治之上，如果有一個人是有權無責，這個其實在獨裁國家才會展現，但今天我們看到的就是，拿了五權憲法一堆東西在那邊繞啊繞，然後就是希望把一些人能夠獨特出他是有權力，但是沒有責任，大法官這次似乎一直在朝這個方向走，甚至你自己去看大法官裡面的一些不同意見書，其實有些大法官還是有一些不一樣的想法，甚至在2016年以前民進黨對於這次國會改革法案的提出，如果像民進黨整天講的，這個東西是明顯禍國殃民、違憲的話，那顧立雄、林佳龍他們也有版本，他們是不是也要出來道歉？所以我認為不是這樣，我認為我們今天所做所為還是要思考怎麼樣對下一代真的有幫助，那才是重點，而不是今天我們自己的位置怎麼樣。尤其是這一次，國會對於政府的監督，這在民主國家的國會是常態，但是放到臺灣卻變成違憲，我想秘書長你一定很清楚這個部分。","我先跟秘書長請教一下，這一次民進黨總是告訴青鳥，他們對我攻擊最大的兩件事，第一個是說我們主持會議黑箱立法，沒有討論，沒有民主，第二個是說我們不懂什麼叫反質詢，結果這兩個部分這次大法官至少都認定是合憲，我不要說大法官訴外裁判、逾越講了一些什麼程序怎麼樣，那個我不管，至少在我看來，民進黨就是騙了他的支持者嘛，沒有黑箱，他說有黑箱，有討論，他說沒有討論。我想請問一下秘書長，這一次憲判字有認為我們這次的修法程序有違憲嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：剛才鍾委員在詢問的時候，我有特別說明，依照國會自律規則，其他的機關對於國會自律，當然它就要尊重，就不應該去說明。但就以我所理解的例子，當時我已經在當考試委員，在進行監察院院長陳菊等人事同意權的時候，賴香伶委員曾經聲請釋憲，當時也是非常紛亂，也沒有經過職權行使法的規範，當時的大法官15個當中，目前有11個在，當時他們認為這個本身是國會自律，不予受理。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，了解。我再請教一下，我們這次的審查，包括這次的修法，有沒有都全程錄影、全程公開，而且全部記載在議事錄，供全民想看的都看得到？請問秘書長，我們立法院有沒有做到？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為舉手表決不可能會在議事錄當中記載是哪一個人贊成或反對，不過依照立法院議事規則第三十五條的規定，舉手表決本來就是表決的方式之一。另外一個我要再跟吳委員報告的是，依我所學的理解，修憲的程序跟法律的審議程序是不一樣的，所以第499號跟第342號解釋是完全不相同的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝秘書長，我想這部分其實非常地清楚，所有的程序，至少在我主持之下，我有把所有程序走完，因為我自己從以前過往的經驗，我是非常重視程序正義的，我們自己學法的也都知道，程序是優先於實體，所以所有的程序我們都走完，大法官也認定至少沒有違憲的問題；至於還有人還想說什麼黑箱立法跟沒有討論、沒有民主，我覺得算了，政治語言我也不多說。但是其實這一次討論裡面講最多話的就是民進黨的立法委員們，他們講了1,068分鐘，這我們已經有量化出來，遠遠超過其他的政黨，所以我也沒有辦法理解這樣。","另外，我補充一個，剛剛我們的鍾召委有問那兩位大律師敗訴是否可以換法官，應該是鍾召委不是吳思瑤，其實我必須講，這可能是對於訴訟程序不是那麼了解，敗訴都已經判決確定，沒有換法官的問題，換法官只有在訴訟中聲請迴避，我這沒有別的意思，我說可能鍾召委這邊剛剛口誤了一下，我來跟大家解釋，敗訴後沒有所謂換法官的問題，這是一個很簡單的程序概念。","我們來看一下，總統可以任命行政院長到立法院做施政報告，然後也可以設立一堆委員會，還可以打電話罵部長，但是現在的問題就出在於總統是有權無責，因為這次大法官憲判直接引用行政院的聲請書，他說總統是對人民負責，不是對立法院負責，結果我們現在完全沒有任何辦法監督他，國內有非常多的議題，我們現在也沒有辦法了解到底他現在心裡在想什麼；至於來不來國情報告，我覺得他在國慶晚會就可以講了，也不一定要來這裡講。這次詹森林大法官的離開，我覺得就跟那兩位NCC委員離開的時候一樣，說了一些真心話，他這次講了一個很重要的點，因為我國總統不是虛位元首，不是虛位元首的話，本來就像我剛剛講的，民主政治必須要以責任政治當作基礎，這是所有學法律、學公法的人都理解的一個ABC，其實剛剛吳思瑤委員講了很多東西，他講的都是一些枝微末節、技術操作最後端的東西，但是最根本的邏輯他從來不講，沒關係，這就是他的水準，我已經習慣了，其實他真的不懂法律，但每次他都會把法律當作小說在那邊講。事實上，這次詹森林大法官所提的東西其實就是一個很核心的問題，因為我們今天面對的是一個有實權的總統，但是我們卻毫無任何能夠監督他的方式。","這一次憲判字也講到罷免案是要全民投票，彈劾案是司法院大法官的憲法法庭審理，所以都不是立法院可以直接對總統行使的職權。但是我必須要提醒這些大法官們或他的信徒們，憲法增修條文第二條講到的罷免案跟彈劾案其實都是立法院立法委員提出的，怎麼會跟立法院無關呢？怎麼會隨便去扯什麼罷免案是全民投票，彈劾案是憲法法庭審理，所以跟立法院無關？增修條文第二條寫得很清楚，是立法院提耶，我真的沒有辦法理解啦。今天要立法院的立法委員提，結果你卻讓他完全都沒有問責的權力，也沒有任何資訊的來源，這就是目前大法官希望國家設計出來的一個民主制度。我覺得這樣下去，臺灣的總統就變成是超級皇帝了，因為他可以做任何事情，但是沒有任何人可以對他怎麼樣。","這一次其實還有一個東西也是開民主倒車，當初釋字585號有提到一個違反協助調查義務就可以科處罰鍰，釋字585號有這個記載，結果我們這一次更誇張的是，你看喔！你不來可以罰鍰，結果你來了講謊話卻不可以罰，所以我不懂這個邏輯在哪裡？民眾在外面說謊要負責任，在法庭具結後說謊要負責任，結果官員到立法院說謊卻完全不用負責任？再回過頭去看民進黨最愛的日本跟美國設計模式，我在想，民進黨花太多時間在製造風向，洗腦他們自己的支持者，如果今天是一個負責任的修法態度，就把其他國家、類似的民主國家制度拿出來給大家看，讓大家來比較，我們在寫論文的時候，各國的比較不就是一個最需要放進去的東西嗎？今天來這裡卻完全不這麼做，他的理由是因為其他國家是三權，我們是五權，所以不能夠比附援引，事實上我們都很清楚，狀況不是這個樣子。更何況我剛剛提到的，2016年以前，這些東西很多都是民進黨的前輩們所提出來的，我自己在念書的時候很崇拜他們這些理念，但今天我們想要實踐的時候卻變成是毀憲亂政，被當初我崇拜的那些前輩們說我們這樣做是錯的。","這次蔡彩貞大法官其實也有提到這個，他也提到不來可以罰，來了說謊卻不可以罰，連蔡大法官也提出這個。甚至我們這次修法搞到比釋字585號更嚴格，而且比釋字325號更限縮，其實完全都在走民主的倒車，這其實也都是讓我們看了很難過的一個地方。","我在這邊要跟秘書長提一個東西，這跟我們立法院有關，其實這一次有說我們把官員移送監察院是違反權力分立，事實上大家有沒有去看，司法院可以移送、考試院可以移送、行政院可以移送，那為什麼另外三個院移送就沒有違反權力分立呢？而且這一次詹大法官也有提到，他說這個所謂的移送是促使監察院知悉，他認為大法官怎麼會直接認定這個違憲，連詹大法官也覺得怎麼會認定這個違憲，所以連自己大法官內部也都覺得不以為然嘛！","所以，這次有人在那邊說什麼誰是違憲三寶或什麼之類，難道其他這幾位大法官是四寶、五寶、六寶嗎？這兩天都有人在問我這個問題，基本上我是不回答說什麼違憲三寶，我覺得法律本來就是各種學說的討論，但是如果你把法律當成小說，或是完全沒有法律概念的人出來指責，那其實任何法律人都不用覺得難過，因為回應他就是浪費生命而已，所以我不認同他這個想法。","所以我還是認為，其實我們國家法規資料庫裡面能夠移送監察院的條文有15條，有15條都可以移送，但是這次卻認為只有立法院移送這個是違憲，那這樣子是不是其他院移送的條文也應該認定違憲？如果依照這次大法官的意見，我想這是一個很持平的論斷，所以我是拿其他的法規出來這樣子談，更何況監察院這幾年的作法其實讓我們也都滿嘆為觀止，甚至有監察委員對於檢察官承辦案件進行二度的彈劾，一追再追，其實這個才是真的有問題，監察權直接介入檢察官偵辦案件。","最後，雖然今天有很多委員都講超過時間很多，但是我最後還是提一個東西，我還是回過頭去提到湯大法官之前在課堂上面所提的那個例子，這在YouTube上面或是很多法律學生都看過這個例子。他說五權憲法的運作其實就是把人民想像是五條狗的主人，這五條狗就是所謂的五權，其實五權憲法的設計就是讓這五隻狗彼此互相咬對方，但是都傷不了對方，能夠互相的制衡，但如果今天有一條狗特別的強壯，把另外四條狗都咬死了，改天他就回過頭來把主人吃掉，這是湯大法官在對學生上課的時候他所提到的，因為我們不允許集權，集權是非常恐怖的，今天為什麼世界上民主國家都是三權分立或我國的五權分立，它要的就是各權之間彼此的制衡，而不是塑造出一個沒有任何人能夠監督它的一個行政權，今天不管誰執政，我說真的，今天不管誰執政，我們都還是覺得權力彼此制衡是非常重要，而且這是憲法的基本概念，不能說一個國家變成集權，而且沒有任何人能夠監督它。","湯大法官這個例子雖然把五權用狗來形容，可能有人會做文章，但我就是如實的引用湯大法官所舉的例子，我也希望全民能夠了解五權彼此是要互相制衡，而不是像今天走向這樣子，今天如果走到這樣子，改天如果發生政黨輪替，下一個政黨也是很恐怖的用集權來統治國家，這絕對是我們不願意見到的，不管今天是我所參加的國民黨或者是民眾黨，它今天如果走向集權，我都會反抗。","很謝謝秘書長，辛苦了，謝謝主席給我一點時間。"],["周秘書長萬來：委員剛才所提，我們請法制局再研究，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝周秘書長、謝謝吳召委。接下來有請羅委員智強詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-9","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","林思銘","沈發惠","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","吳宗憲","羅智強","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","張啓楷","賴士葆","謝龍介","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-28"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共6案；二、邀請立法院秘\n書長列席就「『113年憲判字第9號判決』，國會行使職權之困境與未來」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}