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對不對那看邀請就是說這個總統這個憲法機關跟立法院這個憲法機關兩個去討論嘛 對不對憲法法庭有講得很清楚啊 對不對"},{"start":324.68,"end":332.463,"text":"是違憲啊 本來就立法院本來就沒有權力邀請他來吧那你現在第15條 總統主動來兩方兩兆都沒有憲法的義務秘書長 這個不要雞同鴨講我是跟你講說第15條之一的第一項明明就可以邀請總統來立法院做國權報告沒有錯嘛對不對"},{"start":346.388,"end":361.244,"text":"那現在就是說當然我知道總統沒有來立法院報告的義務然後立法院呢也沒有來聽取總統國情報告的義務這我都知道但是是可以邀請的嘛那所以呢我再來請教一下秘書長"},{"start":362.625,"end":386.085,"text":"這個最後總統來立法院做國刑報告的決定權是在總統府還是在立法院?兩兆那如果說今天那總統他已經說了按照憲法法庭最新判決的意旨那在立法院朝野黨團有具有共識的前提之下依總統的憲法職權到立法院進行國刑報告總統府有這樣講那接下來程序怎麼做勒?"},{"start":390.139,"end":394.263,"text":"對 所以我問你說總統可以來立法院做報告但是最後決定要不要讓總統來的是哪個機關?"},{"start":414.093,"end":439.84,"text":"是立法院嗎?對啊,是立法院嘛,所以立法院是可以有權利就是說如果總統他說我想要來立法院做國情報告但是總統,如果立法院拒絕了,總統就沒辦法來嘛,對不對?對啊,那所以最後的決定權,其實是在立法院所以我看今天國民黨他們就是說啊,他們不讓總統來做這個國情報告啊所以如果說立法院的多數黨不讓總統來做國情報告的話,總統是沒辦法來的,對不對?"},{"start":444.225,"end":445.126,"text":"李坤城議員李坤城議員"},{"start":465.669,"end":487.487,"text":"但是立法院不讓他來,沒辦法來嘛,對不對?那假如總統不知情,也沒有辦法來啊?如果說總統要來的情況之下啦,如果立法院不讓他來,是沒辦法來。是啊,所以我是跟你講,最後決定權其實是在立法院,不是總統府。總統想要來,他已經說他想要來,但是如果今天已經發生這個情況了,國民黨不讓他來,來得了嗎?"},{"start":491.267,"end":507.619,"text":"總統已經講得很清楚了啊沒有啦秘書長我就跟你講總統已經講得很清楚了在判決當天的晚上他就說他願意來了啊他要來咨文啊哇對啦對啊他要來咨文啊咨文代表有後面的程序嘛"},{"start":507.779,"end":508.279,"text":"謝謝李委員 謝謝周秘書長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":844,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時51分）謝謝主席，我們請周秘書長。"],["主席：有請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：秘書長好。請問一下秘書長，在上個禮拜五憲法法庭的判決之後，你有跟韓院長聊過這個判決嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有。"],["李委員坤城：沒有？他也沒有跟你徵詢過這個判決？"],["周秘書長萬來：他辦公室的主管有跟我針對這方面做一些處理。"],["李委員坤城：所以院長本人都沒有針對大法官的這個釋憲，有關於立法院職權行使法後續的一些，不管是修法或者是其他相關的一些情況跟秘書長有所討論？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們會依照這個結論，我們會跟他報告。"],["李委員坤城：你有跟他報告過了嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：目前還沒有，因為今天來備詢，我還沒有時間跟他報告。"],["李委員坤城：所以這幾天也都還沒有跟韓院長聯絡過就對了？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有。"],["李委員坤城：沒有？這麼重要的事情，沒有趕快跟他報告喔！"],["周秘書長萬來：因為今天應司法及法制委員會之邀來報告，因為我4點多接到通知必須要來報告，當然這個時間必須跟我的同事，尤其是法制局必須要研擬……"],["李委員坤城：好，所以都還沒有跟韓院長報告就對了？"],["周秘書長萬來：對，我跟他的主任有……"],["李委員坤城：有說過？是說今天要來報告的事情，還是說大法官釋憲的事情？"],["周秘書長萬來：釋憲的過程。"],["李委員坤城：釋憲的過程？好，那幾個問題請教秘書長。第一個問題要請教一下的就是有關總統來立法院國情報告的事情，剛剛我有聽到秘書長說立法院邀請總統來立法院做國情報告是違憲，我有沒有聽錯？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：是違憲喔？立法院邀請總統來做國情報告怎麼會違憲呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：李委員，我要這樣報告，第十五條之一是合憲的……"],["李委員坤城：對啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：對，因為憲法增修條文有規定……"],["李委員坤城：第十五條之一怎麼講？立法院於每年集會時邀請總統到立法院進行國情報告啊，這沒有錯吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：是，李委員……"],["李委員坤城：那怎麼會違憲呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：李委員，我跟你報告，所謂違憲是第十五條之二第一項跟第十五條之四都是違憲的。"],["李委員坤城：對，但是我講的是第十五條之一第一項嘛，對不對？我是跟你講第一項，第一項有說到可以邀請總統到立法院進行國情報告啊，有沒有？"],["周秘書長萬來：我跟李委員報告，第十五條之二第一項……"],["李委員坤城：不是，我跟你講第十五條之一，我們現在來討論第十五條之一嘛，第十五條之一是不是有說立法院於每年集會時邀請總統到立法院進行國情報告，有沒有這一項？"],["周秘書長萬來：這是合憲的，因為憲法增修……"],["李委員坤城：對啊，合憲嘛！那你怎麼會說是違憲咧？"],["周秘書長萬來：我所說的違憲是第十五條之二第一項，立法院沒有決定權請他來報告。"],["李委員坤城：對，這不是違憲啊！所以立法院邀請總統來立法院做國情報告沒有違憲嘛，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為規範是兩個都沒有，在憲法上沒有這個義務。"],["李委員坤城：不是啦，所以秘書長你要修正你的話，因為我剛才問你的是，立法院邀請總統來立法院做國情報告這個違憲，你還說沒錯，但是我們第十五條第一項就這樣寫，可以邀請總統來立法院做國情報告，這沒有違憲啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：這一個報告是因為根據憲法增修條文，本來就得請他來報告，這是憲法條文，不過我要跟李委員報告，其實因為……"],["李委員坤城：對！那所以秘書長，是不是要修正你講的話？立法院邀請總統來做國情報告，沒有違憲啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：這個要這樣補充，立法院邀請他那一個是違憲的，所以立法院沒有權力要求他來報告。"],["李委員坤城：好啦，那你讀一下第十五條之一，它第一項是寫什麼？"],["周秘書長萬來：第十五條之一的情況，我要跟李委員這樣報告……"],["李委員坤城：來來來，請秘書長你念一下第十五條之一第一項，好不好？"],["周秘書長萬來：好。第一項當然是合憲的……"],["李委員坤城：對啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：第二項、第三項是違憲的。"],["李委員坤城：不是啦，所以我是跟你講說，第十五條之一的第一項，邀請總統來是合憲的，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：這一個，欸，李委員，不是……"],["李委員坤城：所以你跟我講說違憲，就是說你剛才講違憲，我覺得有點訝異，我們是可以邀請總統來的啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：我知道。我知道。李委員，要這樣說明，就憲法本身，總統就可以來立法院報告，這個沒有問題……"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["周秘書長萬來：但是，但是，第十五條之二的第一項，立法院沒有權力請他來報告，這是違憲的。"],["李委員坤城：好，那第十五條之一的第一項，可以邀請總統到立法院進行國情報告，這沒有錯嘛，對不對？可以邀請就是說，總統這個憲法機關跟立法院這個憲法機關兩個去討論嘛，對不對？憲法法庭有講得很清楚啊，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：是，因為……"],["李委員坤城：對啊！那你怎麼會說是違憲呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，報告委員，是違憲啊！立法院本來就沒有權力邀請他來，現在第十五條第二項是總統主動來，兩造都沒有憲法的義務……"],["李委員坤城：他不是有說可以邀請，秘書長，秘書長，你不要雞同鴨講，我是跟你講說，第十五條之一的第一項，明明就可以邀請總統來立法院做國情報告，沒有錯嘛，對不對？當然我知道總統沒有來立法院報告的義務，然後立法院也沒有來聽取總統國情報告的義務，這個我都知道，但是立法院是可以邀請的嘛。所以，我再請教一下秘書長，最後總統來立法院做國情報告的決定權是在總統府，還是在立法院？"],["周秘書長萬來：兩造。"],["李委員坤城：兩造？好。如果今天賴總統已經說，按照憲法法庭最新判決的意旨，在立法院朝野黨團具有共識的前提之下，依總統的憲法職權到立法院進行國情報告，總統府有這樣講，那接下來的程序怎麼做咧？"],["周秘書長萬來：最主要……因為我不能代表各黨團，因為我是幕僚……"],["李委員坤城：對，我是講程序。"],["周秘書長萬來：對，那就是總統要主動來咨請，因為根據法條，總統要來函咨請，但是要經過立法院同意。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，所以我問你說，總統可以來立法院做報告，但是最後決定要不要讓總統來的是哪個機關？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然是立法院。"],["李委員坤城：對，是立法院嘛，所以立法院是可以有權力，就是如果總統他說，我想要來立法院做國情報告，但是如果立法院拒絕了，總統就沒辦法來嘛，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒錯，因為雙方都沒有憲法上的義務。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以最後的決定權其實是在立法院。因此我看到今天國民黨他們就說，他們不讓總統來做國情報告，所以如果立法院的多數黨不讓總統來做國情報告的話，總統是沒辦法來的，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：那跟以前陳總統的狀況一樣。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！所以，第一個，立法院是可以邀請總統來做國情報告的，但是，邀請總統來要怎麼做，就是由兩個憲法機關去討論，我想憲法法庭已經說得很清楚了。第二個，其實最後的決定權是在立法院，立法院可以決定，如果今天總統說，我想要來，但是立法院不讓他來，沒辦法來嘛，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：假如總統不咨請，也沒辦法讓他來。"],["李委員坤城：沒有，我是說總統有咨請，如果總統要來的情況之下，如果立法院不讓他來，是不是沒辦法來？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然，依照法條規定是這樣。"],["李委員坤城：是啊，所以我是跟你講，最後的決定權其實是在立法院，不是總統府，總統想要來，他就說他想要來，但是如果今天已經發生這個情況了，國民黨不讓他來，來得了嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：總統也不一定想要來……"],["李委員坤城：總統已經講得很清楚了啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：一定的道理，因為兩造的……"],["李委員坤城：沒有啦！秘書長，我就跟你講，總統已經講得很清楚了，在判決當天的晚上，他就說他願意來了啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：那他要來咨文啊。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！對啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：要來咨文啊！咨文來才代表有後面的程序嘛！"],["李委員坤城：好啦！我還要再糾正你，雖然你是行走的活字典，但是立法院是可以邀請總統來做國情報告的，第十五條之一的第一項已經說得很清楚了。"],["周秘書長萬來：尊重委員的……"],["李委員坤城：是尊重大法官，不是尊重我。"],["主席：謝謝李委員，謝謝周秘書長。接下來有請張委員啓楷詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-9","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","林思銘","沈發惠","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","吳宗憲","羅智強","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","張啓楷","賴士葆","謝龍介","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-28"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共6案；二、邀請立法院秘\n書長列席就「『113年憲判字第9號判決』，國會行使職權之困境與未來」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}