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不准不去請教專業對一個很專業的秘書長 到處霸凌秘書長 人民會挺你的 不用怕你是有專業的 我相信絕大部分的人民還是挺你的你先回座 我請教另外一個專家 來李秘書長"},{"start":285.24,"end":310.535,"text":"蔣委員好今天可以發生一個事情就是超思雞蛋進口雞蛋前農業部長陳吉仲現任的農業部長陳俊濟還有中央續產會的董事長林聰賢被約談了我要問你喔你感謝你進行有提糾正案嘛對不對對我們糾正農業部提糾正案提了5項糾正案6項調查意見我們總共列出11項重點11項重點嘛"},{"start":315.635,"end":321.377,"text":"我跟委員報告我們在調查報告裡有寫得很清楚我們會另起彈劾案理由很簡單因為續產會的部分是財團把人不是我們監督的範圍所以我們都沒有辦法問續產會那如果沒有辦法問續產會的話我們現在沒有辦法就後續的調查"},{"start":345.566,"end":357.806,"text":"所以這個部分我們會等檢調調查完以後我們從檢調來調閱卷證然後再看看要不要彈劾那彈劾的部分我們在調查報告已經寫得很清楚了會另起彈劾案"},{"start":358.598,"end":384.335,"text":"那個民主黨監察法規定監察委員對公務人員認為有違法或失職之行為應向監察院提出談核嗎?我這樣聯盟你說你今天回答是說你會提可是他等就對了對不對我們現在沒有辦法查續產會阿所以農業部跟續產會講的一不一致他的交代是這樣我們要談續產會這就是我要問你的第二個問題了那你後來的五項糾正裡面調查意見你提了兩點出去"},{"start":385.336,"end":399.297,"text":"要北檢要去查對不對有兩項嘛對不對你的調查意見一跟調查意見三要求北檢去查對不對對沒有錯你不覺得他拖延太久了嗎欸北檢怎麼樣的速度這個不是我們監察院的範圍啊所以變成兩個問題嘛"},{"start":400.939,"end":403.18,"text":"我跟張委員說明喔監察法施行細則第27條有規定如果監察院調查中的案子"},{"start":418.405,"end":430.767,"text":"那司法系統也有採取行動我們必須停下來等他們等他們做完以後我們才開始進行我們那我們的調查是事後權所以根據監察法第27條我們必須這樣做那我們已經說明很清楚這個部分會另有彈劾案但是我們現在還沒有辦法調查所以民主黨這是不是就是現在民眾非常生氣跟不耐煩的地方一個案子從去年"},{"start":447.554,"end":449.416,"text":"韓送到北檢到現在又拖拖拉拉這個跟今天的國會改革是有"},{"start":465.697,"end":479.074,"text":"有相關的你之前在立法院你是個優秀的立法委員你也提過了你說聽證調查權如果不給的話那你不覺得沒有牙齒的老虎變成什麼沒有老虎的小貓咪對不對"},{"start":481.054,"end":503.286,"text":"今天現在大法官把那個之前實質廢食現在基本上已經是實質要幾乎掐死整個國會改革了調查錢幾乎已經是沒有了嘛我是雞蛋小組的專案調查小組的召集人啊我現在不能動啊然後你看大法官做了這個決定然後你們監察院長久功效又不髒一個事情拖了一年多"},{"start":504.788,"end":525.354,"text":"回到初衷李秘書長回到初衷從政的初衷我們要回應人民的要求對不對超支雞蛋這麼明確花了人民將近10億的人民納稅錢裡面一致官商勾結你們查出都有問題了阿為什麼從去年搞到現在監察院的功能在哪裡北檢的功能在哪裡又不給立法院功能"},{"start":526.684,"end":527.144,"text":"李秘書長,我摸著良心阿"},{"start":556.004,"end":556.864,"text":"臺灣目前的一個很離譜的地方"},{"start":584.315,"end":587.056,"text":"我跟張委員報告最後一個重點如果對這樣的制度認為有質疑有疑問的話"},{"start":609.885,"end":610.245,"text":"請提出修憲"},{"start":637.49,"end":640.334,"text":"檢察官的功能要彰顯 立法院的功能不要被掐死了好不好 謝謝秘書長 謝謝李秘書長 謝謝張委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":930,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（13時）先請周秘書長跟李秘書長。"],["主席：有請周秘書長、李秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：周秘書長先，敬老尊賢，你先。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：周秘書長辛苦了！委屈不能求全，而且姑息常常會養奸，在5月份的時候，民進黨的立委郭國文暴力搶奪你的資料，把你推倒而跌坐在椅子上面，你連眼鏡都撞飛了。在1個小時前郭國文還在講，他說他沒有把你推倒，把你推倒在椅子上不叫推倒嗎？你那天有沒有跌倒？"],["周秘書長萬來：我要這樣說明，我那個同事現在可能不在場，當時的反應是因為我們的椅子是會滑動的，不過他很機警地從後面就擋住，讓我倒在椅子上。"],["張委員啓楷：所以好在是這樣，「好加在」喔！那天是你的同事用椅子把你接住，你整個人如果倒下去，你年事已高，你是立法院的活字典，已經72歲了，那天如果不是你的同事救你，你整個人摔下去會多嚴重。現在最離譜的是在1個小時前郭國文還說他沒有推你，沒有把你推倒，他不只把你推倒在椅子上面，他還進一步再去搶你的東西，對不對？所以我說民進黨──特別是郭國文欠我們周秘書長一個道歉。我剛剛在開頭就講了委屈是不能求全的，他到現在有跟你道歉嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有道歉？"],["周秘書長萬來：只是在詢答過程中有跟我說明一下。"],["張委員啓楷：他說了一下，道歉這個字眼都沒出現？"],["周秘書長萬來：他是問我有沒有受驚。"],["張委員啓楷：最離譜的是到今天還在硬拗，有點悔意嗎？秘書長，不是只有你受委屈欸！在這段時間，我們的立法院的職員被軟禁、被關起來，都不能出去，在開會之前，黃捷還可以這樣偷偷摸摸的像小偷一樣晚上去開門，你是立法院的秘書長，也是幕僚長啊！你們為什麼每次都講求和諧，跟民進黨都講求和諧，為什麼不嚴辦呢？本席強烈的要求，一方面，現在郭國文還不認錯，我在朝野協商的時候要追究他的責任，相同的，我拜託秘書長要硬起來，立法院是最高的民意機構，是國會殿堂，民進黨惡搞，拉低了整個立法院的水準，立法院的院長、秘書長都有責任，該追究的要追究，好不好？"],["周秘書長萬來：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：民進黨還欠了一個很重要的道歉啊！這幾天他們一直在講你認為舉手表決是沒有問題的，現在憲法法庭不是講沒有問題了嗎？對不對？沒有違憲嘛！對不對？舉手表決沒有違憲。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為舉手表決本來就是我們院裡面議事規則明定的東西。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有違憲啊！民進黨現在有沒有跟你道歉？他們還因為這樣不是要拉你下來嗎？剛才吳思瑤還在說什麼？說有瑕疵喔？重點是有沒有違憲，有沒有道歉？也沒有嘛！對不對？好啦！秘書長，你保重，你辛苦了，你盡心盡力，我認識你那麼久了，你本來就是一個專業性很強的人，為什麼你叫立法院的活字典？以前不是只有我們當記者的，連國民黨的立法委員、民進黨的立法委員有多少人碰到議事規則有問題，都是去找周萬來啊！以前議事處的主任變成處長、再變副秘書長，連民進黨的立法委員碰到問題都會請教周萬來啊！現在變什麼時代了？現在民進黨不僅不去問、不去請教專業，還對一個很專業的秘書長到處霸凌。秘書長，人民會挺你的，不用怕，你是有專業的，我相信絕大部分的人民還是挺你的。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：好，秘書長，你先回座，我請教另外一個專家。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：請李俊俋秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：秘書長，你是嘉義的人才啦。"],["李秘書長俊俋：不敢當。"],["張委員啓楷：今天早上發生一件事情，就是有關超思進口雞蛋，前農業部長陳吉仲、現任的農業部長陳駿季，還有中央畜產會的董事長林聰賢被約談了，我要問你，監察院之前有提糾正案，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，我們糾正農業部。"],["張委員啓楷：你們提了5項糾正案、6項調查意見……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們總共列出11項重點。"],["張委員啓楷：11項重點嘛。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["張委員啓楷：很嚴重啊，裡面指證歷歷。我要問你，過這麼久了，這是8月30號提的糾正案。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這麼久了，你們的彈劾在哪裡？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟委員報告，我們在調查報告裡有寫得很清楚，我們會另起彈劾案，理由很簡單，因為畜產會的部分是財團法人，不是我們監督的範圍，所以我們都沒有辦法問畜產會，如果沒有辦法問畜產會的話，我們現在沒有辦法做後續的調查，所以這個部分我們會等檢調調查完以後，我們從檢調來調閱卷證，然後再看看要不要彈劾，那彈劾的部分，我們在調查報告已經寫得很清楚了，會另起彈劾案。"],["張委員啓楷：秘書長，監察法規定監察委員對於公務人員認為有違法或失職之行為，應向監察院提出彈劾，我現在問你，你今天的回答是說你會提，可是還要等就對了，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們現在沒有辦法查畜產會啊，所以農業部跟畜產會講得一不一致，他的交代……"],["張委員啓楷：好，我知道，你現在講的是時間，這就是我要問你的第二個問題，你後來的5項糾正裡面，你提了2點調查意見要北檢去查，對不對？有2項嘛，對不對？你的調查意見一跟調查意見三要求北檢去查對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，沒有錯。"],["張委員啓楷：你不覺得他拖延太久了嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：北檢怎麼樣的速度，這個不是我們監察院的範圍。"],["張委員啓楷：所以變成兩個問題，一個是不理你們監察院，提出去、丟在那裡、拖拖拉拉的，這是一個；第二個就是影響到你的監察權、彈劾權。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟張委員說明，監察法施行細則第二十七條有規定，如果監察院調查中的案子，司法系統也有採取行動，我們必須停下來等他們，等他們做完以後，我們才開始進行我們的部分。那我們的調查是事後權，所以根據監察法施行細則第二十七條，我們必須這樣做，我們已經說明很清楚，這個部分會另有彈劾案，但是我們現在還沒有辦法調查。"],["張委員啓楷：所以秘書長，這是不是就是現在民眾非常生氣跟不耐煩的地方？一個案子從去年你們在監察院調查的時候已經拖延快一年，北檢也拖延了一年多，這是第一個問題；第二個，好不容易人民盼呀盼，盼到你把這個糾正案拿出來了，你函送到北檢，到現在又拖拖拉拉，這個跟今天的國會改革是有相關的。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：聽我講完、聽我講完、聽我講完，請你聽我講完。"],["李秘書長俊俋：好。"],["張委員啓楷：你之前在立法院也是一個優秀的立法委員，你也提過了，你說聽證調查權如果不給的話，立法院不只是沒有牙齒的老虎，變成什麼？沒有牙齒的小貓咪嘛，對不對？現在大法官把那個……之前實質廢死，現在他基本上已經是實質、幾乎要掐死整個國會改革了，調查權幾乎已經是沒有了嘛，我是雞蛋的專案調查小組的召集人，我現在不能動啊，然後你看大法官做了這個決定，你們監察院長久功效又不彰，一個事情拖了一年多，回到初衷，李秘書長，回到從政的初衷，我們要回應人民的要求，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，沒有錯。"],["張委員啓楷：超思雞蛋案這麼明確，花了將近十億的人民納稅錢，裡面疑似官商勾結，你們也查出有問題了，為什麼從去年搞到現在？監察院的功能在哪裡？北檢的功能在哪裡？又不給立法院功能，那臺灣怎麼辦？臺灣這樣下去怎麼辦？"],["李秘書長俊俋：張委員，我跟你說明，我們去年10月開始查，今年8月提出調查報告，這是重大特殊事項，而且調查權本來就是事後權，我們是依照憲法、依照法律的規定。至於我們跟司法系統怎麼樣協調，我剛剛已經跟您報告過了，是依據監察法施行細則第二十七條的規定，必須他們先行，我們在後面，因為我們是事後權，所以這個部分不是我們拖延，我們都依照法律來做。"],["張委員啓楷：李秘書長，我們摸著良心、摸著良心啦。"],["李秘書長俊俋：摸著良心做啊，我們就是照這樣做、照法律規定……"],["張委員啓楷：會不會拖太久了？為什麼從去年8月拖到現在？這是一個，有沒有拖延……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是重大特殊案件，它的時間是1年……"],["張委員啓楷：你不要回答，摸著良心，人民會看……"],["李秘書長俊俋：它的期間是1年。"],["張委員啓楷：期間是1年？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["張委員啓楷：拖了這麼久了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：重大特殊案件。"],["張委員啓楷：你今天有一個比較好的、一個明確的表達，你說這個案子不是只有糾正案，一定會彈劾嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，我們調查報告已經寫得很清楚了，我們會……"],["張委員啓楷：可是今天這個困境也顯示出來臺灣目前一個很離譜的地方，一個案子，人民、全民都矚目的，要真相、要查清楚的，一個監察院可以拖這麼久、一個北檢可以拖這麼久，到今天喔！今天才開始去約談了陳吉仲、約談了陳駿季、約談了林聰賢。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是北檢啦！不是監察院。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！我說北檢到今天才約談。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：所以這個制度上是不是有很大的問題？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟張委員報告最後一個重點，如果對這樣的制度認為有質疑、有疑問的話，請提出修憲，如果沒有修憲，我們現在就是按照憲法跟按照法律規定來做。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：你對法律那麼懂，現在臺灣這種狀況下，修憲有辦法過嗎？"],["主席：謝謝張委員，因為後面還有委員，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：有辦法過嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：修憲是立法院的權限，修憲是立法院的權限，不是我們監察院的權限。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我們要共同去努力啊！就是為什麼這一次大法官釋憲，大家對憲法法庭生氣，就是這樣。"],["主席：好，時間的關係，我們謝謝張委員寶貴意見。"],["張委員啓楷：我們回到初心，我們就發現問題。"],["李秘書長俊俋：修憲是立法院的權限。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：秘書長，我們今天是很真心在溝通的。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：我們都看到問題了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我也很盡力在回答。"],["張委員啓楷：不能再這樣拖延下去，監察院的功能要彰顯。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["張委員啓楷：檢察官的功能要彰顯，立法院的功能、國會改革不要掐死了。"],["主席：張委員……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我從過去到現在都主張修憲跟國會改革要同時進行……"],["主席：謝謝秘書長，謝謝張委員。謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：我們共同努力，我們再把它救回來。謝謝。"],["主席：接下來有請賴委員士葆詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-9","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","林思銘","沈發惠","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","吳宗憲","羅智強","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李坤城","張啓楷","賴士葆","謝龍介","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-28"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共6案；二、邀請立法院秘\n書長列席就「『113年憲判字第9號判決』，國會行使職權之困境與未來」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}