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一個致船費就船要停在那邊等你卸貨從一百一十年我們大概只有兩億到一百一十一年我們暴增到7億那也就算了一百一十二年貨送來了沒有辦法卸貨台電賠了20億"},{"start":407.241,"end":420.387,"text":"20億是什麼?致船費也就是我們訂的貨人家送來了你沒有倉庫可以卸貨然後就讓他在船上等要賠給船東賠一年賠20億你一年我們現在剛院長說賠了4000多億其中這樣就快30億部長這是怎麼回事?報告委員我想這一個命題我們回去會馬上嚴查這件事情不應該發生"},{"start":435.526,"end":465.246,"text":"部長來自企業界庫存、倉庫都要準備好然後貨來了要趕快卸沒有地方存要去找地方存你20億、30億拿來蓋倉庫都蓋完了不是現在這樣的狀況你可以說烏克蘭戰爭我們預計不好你訂貨跟送貨都沒有規劃也沒有安排然後一賠20億現在告訴我說要漲電價這百姓怎麼能接受這個我們回去馬上來清查這件事情"},{"start":465.643,"end":482.857,"text":"好這個是要清查請一個月之內給本席一個報告而且你也要給審計部報告也要告訴我們全民說漲價是因為漲到這種錢漲到這種錢我們不甘心啊好嗎我們來追查這件事情是現在請主席我要請環境部長麻煩請環境部長備詢這件事情需要報告拜託我覺得蠻離譜的"},{"start":492.659,"end":520.072,"text":"接下去就是上一次院長我再總實詢也問過了我先對於基隆協和電廠的未來還有現在的四階的環評上次部長說沒有替代方案環境部長說我不是經濟部的環保署我會嚴格審查院長回答我目前還沒有想到替代方案我想知道如果環評不過兩位院長跟部長還是沒有替代方案嗎"},{"start":522.321,"end":546.386,"text":"要不要努力呢?要去努力還是要去耍無賴的?目前的努力是一步一步的收集更完整的資料。我也希望,所以你們要去找資料,我也很認真的幫你們找資料。我剛剛聽到院長的報告很高興,因為我們把地熱列為台灣未來再生能源的其中一個重要項目。所以接下來就要跟兩位報告說,其實在基隆有地熱,"},{"start":547.466,"end":572.008,"text":"基隆的地熱在2014年公園院就已經查到基隆嶼下面有新來的海底火山另外協和電廠將來還是燃氣他還是會借海造地這會破壞生態第二個燃氣還是有所謂的戰爭風險有所謂的會受到天后的影響會受到國際能源的影響"},{"start":572.912,"end":599.431,"text":"地熱淨零碳排而且不用燃料最重要是24小時不受天候的影響還有我們是穩定不求人我想地熱應該是臺灣未來很重要的一個方向所以基隆有這樣的資源但是我很遺憾我最近在調資料經濟部沒有做過研究就說沒有替代方案然後台電呢也說從來沒有探勘過請問沒有探勘過你怎麼知道沒有第三"},{"start":601.043,"end":620.249,"text":"2022年的海大教授就說其實我們希望能夠在基隆這個地方把地熱列為考慮之一院長我要說的是你們要集齊窮盡所有的努力去找到更多的方案而不是直接把這個鍋甩給環境部"},{"start":621.564,"end":643.864,"text":"尤其是院長我希望很堅定的說你剛剛講的報告第六是中華民國未來政策的重要的重中之重我希望他會成為卓院長的一個政績好嗎我們只要有任何的訊息我要請經濟部督促台電跟相關的部門能夠去廣泛的去發掘沒錯所以請不要輕易的說沒有替代方案"},{"start":644.565,"end":668.011,"text":"而且,替代方案,人家都告訴你了。是,跟委員報告的第一任目前的成本相當的高。相當高,所以我們要現在接近其他國家。這是土耳其的資料。土耳其在2010年它只有94MW,但是到2018年,成長了將近12倍。也就是,要做還是不做。成本一開始都很高,因為要探勘。"},{"start":669.051,"end":682.998,"text":"我們現在的問題是剛剛講的我們不知道或我們從來沒去探勘過也不曉得要把它當成國家重要的方向土耳其就在眼前做不做而已另外我們也找到他們的方法"},{"start":683.831,"end":712.634,"text":"他其實很認真的在做一件事第一個他們的政府先把所有的地質探勘的資料做完備提供相關的數據讓國際的企業可以知道或者是來協助來參與最重要的是他提供稅務的減免補貼的政策甚至資金的援助更重要的是先完善地熱的法規這些環境造就以後國際的企業就像風電供光電業者他就會來"},{"start":714.295,"end":714.435,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":734.725,"end":746.872,"text":"我們碰到很多美國商會、歐洲商會的朋友都一直在說希望得到完整的data而已他們有data他們就可以做評估院長這件事情還沒開始做欸"},{"start":747.799,"end":768.57,"text":"非常謝謝委員的這個意見,我們請經濟部,這是非常可行的方式,好,現在去主持。這一次為什麼還沒開始做,然後又變成中央政策,我希望的是,院部長你可以答應開始做這件事。我們開始在做,我們已經在那個宜蘭的園山,挖了第一口深層的這個地熱井。"},{"start":769.07,"end":769.19,"text":"主席"},{"start":787.896,"end":816.082,"text":"部長我很期待因為我們希望如果可以啟動的話基隆也可以成為你所定的一個地方不管協和電廠的未來命運如何我們都不應該放棄探勘基隆的地熱這是第一點接下來可以看到美國的計劃美國的計劃是到現在要提升未來將來2050年要比現在的地熱提升到28.5%也就是提升20倍以上佔他的能源佔比"},{"start":817.302,"end":829.267,"text":"為全美發電8.5%我們台灣我調的資料是我們2024目前低熱發電是剛剛院長說的7.29MW是占總發電量不到0.1%然後好像我們的目標是2030年低熱發電值200MW在總發電量不到0.3部長這個目標有沒有太低了一點"},{"start":840.16,"end":866.398,"text":"是的,這個部分我們會滾動式的來檢討核心大一點吧目標高一點吧如果地熱台灣接下去的問題是你看國際的科技巨擘從Google到Meta都在發展地熱做它數據中心的電源也就是說剛剛我講只要環境友善只要法規明確只要資料健全"},{"start":866.958,"end":867.9,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":882.902,"end":912.237,"text":"國科會早就說了臺灣的地熱資源豐富儲存量將近10座核市場2011年到現在10多年竟然進展只有剛剛部長說今年才開始認真的探勘其實進度稍嫌緩慢而且地熱裡面臺灣蘊藏了400GW宜蘭現在是8.5所以其實宜蘭是一個很重要的方向而且已經開始了我們希望"},{"start":912.765,"end":913.586,"text":"韓國瑜委員會委員會主席"},{"start":957.972,"end":959.155,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員質詢。謝謝主委長及各部會首長備詢。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":43,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（9時36分）謝謝主席。我請院長、經濟部部長、環境部部長、台電董事長。"],["主席：請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：很高興看到卓院長的報告對於臺灣未來的能源配比，已經有一個初步完整的結構。我今天的質詢有幾個題目，希望能藉此了解一下院長的態度，還有接下來的作法。","前面比較輕鬆一點，我們來討論一下智慧電表。這是政府的政策，對吧？賴總統在氣候變遷委員會裡提到，節能是最重要的，部長，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：我想請問，這個氣候變遷委員會將來的決議行政院都會照辦吧？還是會像司改會或年改會，很多決議其實都沒有做到？我們不希望再發生同樣的事情，這個殷鑑並不遠。院長有參加這個會嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有參加這個會。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以部長有參加？"],["郭部長智輝：我有。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這個決議絕對會成為行政院的政策，不會像年改會或司改會後續無力？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統府的氣候變遷委員會主要是就一些政策做討論……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：至於怎麼樣執行、期程……"],["黃委員珊珊：由行政院來執行……"],["卓院長榮泰：預算的規劃，乃至人力的布置，都由行政院逐步來推。"],["黃委員珊珊：我也希望是這樣，不要常常看到有很多的決議但後面沒有下文。","接下來，賴總統說最好的節能政策比開發能源更有效益，這點兩位也認同吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：他說最好的能源就是節能。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，所以為了節能，我們四年、將近花三百多億來省下206億度的電，讓民間來投資三千多億，對吧？目前的計畫是這樣。但有趣的是，智慧電表是政府的政策，日本跟德國都認為智慧電表可以達到節能的效果，但我在這邊要跟大家說，也要跟部長跟院長說，審計部的報告很有趣，它說我們的智慧電表裝得太慢，而且裝上智慧電表也不智慧，事實的實情是這樣。我們101年開始推動智慧電表，在十二年內將近裝設了323萬戶，但其中147萬的高耗能住宅用電戶，到目前為止並沒有裝智慧電表，將近有一半。也就是說，我們有裝智慧電表，可是我們是裝在低耗能的，高耗能的反而有一百多萬戶沒有裝！這狀況是審計部說的，不是我說的。部長，你對這個有什麼看法？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，有關這個部分，我想智慧電表是我們這一期大力要推動的，在深度節能的部分，透過智慧電表……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以智慧電表是其中一個節能的項目，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是、是。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是現在的速度跟效率我覺得有點低啦，而且審計部也說裝太慢，更嚴重的是，院長，什麼叫做智慧電表？就是要透過網際網路……"],["卓院長榮泰：連線。"],["黃委員珊珊：直接可以讀取，而且可以審閱，但現在有3萬戶左右裝設的智慧電表並不智慧，因為它沒有網際網路，所以裝了等於白裝。我的意思是說，如果審計部有這樣的檢討報告，院長跟部長可能要去看一看我們的節能政策是出了什麼問題，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員的指導。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為這個部分看起來有點可笑。","接下來要看的是，我們從101年開始推，其實跟日本是同一個時間，我們現在推到大約20%，日本到現在幾乎已經百分之百了，也就是我們還剩下11年的80%，這個速度跟效率的確是非常非常的差。所以部長，我相信您來自企業，你應該不會容許這樣的效率存在於我們政府之間吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，這個院長有指示，這個部分我們會全力以赴。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，院長，我覺得所謂節能是最好的能源，拜託節能的第一要務就是智慧電表的落實，而且我們落後其他國家非常多。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們會極力地迎頭趕上，希望能夠達到目標。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我同時要請台電董事長上台一下，謝謝。","接下來我還要再講一個審計部最近查到的部分……"],["主席：時間暫停，跟黃珊珊委員報告一下，台電董事長不能備詢，他就坐在那邊，因為他不是部長。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，沒關係，那我們就把要問台電的事情來問院長跟部長。接下來也是審計部說的，我們現在從立法院給政府的公務預算中，不管是增資也好，補助也好，其實大概已經給台電3,000億左右。今年一年我們漲了2次電價，現在經濟部又向立法院申請了將近2,000億的補助，接下來需要撥補給台電。我想問一下院長，如果這些都給了，請問我們多久可以不漲電價？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，首先在我們今年10月份的電價調整方面，民生用電沒有調整，還遠遠低於我們的成本，所以台電必須……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們應該可以保有明年有機會不漲電價嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們努力……"],["黃委員珊珊：努力？"],["卓院長榮泰：讓民生穩定，這是我們第一目標。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以除了剛剛講的能夠節電，其實還有一個，台電要節流，台電不節流才是今天虧損擴大的主因，這邊也是審計部說的……"],["卓院長榮泰：部長思思念念就是這段話，他認為有信心讓台電的財務健全，就是台電本身的內部改造。"],["黃委員珊珊：我想部長來自企業，他一定不能容許自己的企業在那邊浪費嘛，對吧？","審計部又講了另一件事，進口燃煤每年送到臺灣來，然後需要卸貨，但如果卸貨太慢就要給一個滯船費，也就是船要停在那邊等你卸貨，從110年大概只有2億，到111年暴增到7億，那也就算了，112年貨送來了沒有辦法卸貨，台電賠了20億，20億是什麼？滯船費！也就是我們訂了貨，人家送來了，你沒有倉庫可以卸貨，然後讓它在船上等，就要賠償給船東，一年賠20億，剛剛院長說賠了四千多億，其中這樣就快30億了，部長，這是怎麼回事啊？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個命題我們回去會馬上嚴查，到底怎麼來訂這個合約的……"],["黃委員珊珊：這件事情不應該發生！部長，你來自企業界，庫存、倉庫都要準備好，然後貨來了要趕快卸，沒地方存也要去找地方存，你20億、30億拿來蓋倉庫都蓋完了，不是現在這樣的狀況。你可以說烏克蘭戰爭，我們運氣不好，但訂貨跟送貨都沒有規劃、沒有安排，然後一賠20億，現在告訴我說要漲電價，這樣百姓怎麼能接受？"],["郭部長智輝：我們回去馬上來清查這件事情。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，這個要清查，請1個月之內給本席一個報告，而且你也要給審計部報告，也要告訴全民漲價是因為漲到這種錢，漲到這種錢我們不甘心啊，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們來追查這件事情。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，時間暫停，主席，我要請環境部長。"],["主席：麻煩請環境部長備詢。"],["黃委員珊珊：這件事情需要報告，拜託，我覺得蠻離譜的。","接下去就是上一次，院長，我在總質詢也問過了，對於基隆協和電廠的未來，還有現在的四接環評，上次部長說沒有替代方案，環境部長說他不是經濟部的環保署，他會嚴格審查。院長，回答我，目前還沒有想到替代方案，我想知道，如果環評不過，院長跟部長兩位還是沒有替代方案嗎？要不要努力呢？要去努力，還是要去耍無賴呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前的努力是一步一步的收集更完整的資料，讓環評能夠通過。"],["黃委員珊珊：我也希望，所以你們要去找資料，我也很認真的幫你們找資料。剛剛聽到院長的報告，我很高興，因為我們把地熱列為臺灣未來再生能源其中一個重要的項目，所以接下來就要跟兩位報告，其實在基隆有地熱，基隆的地熱在2014年工研院就已經查到，基隆嶼下面有新瀨海底火山。","另外，協和電廠將來還是燃氣，它還是會借海造地，這會破壞生態。第二個，燃氣還是有所謂的戰爭風險，也會受到天候的影響，會受到國際能源的影響。地熱淨零碳排而且不用燃料，最重要的是24小時不受天候的影響，還有是穩定不求人，我想地熱應該是臺灣未來很重要的一個方向。基隆有這樣的資源，但是我很遺憾，我最近在調資料，經濟部沒有做過研究就說沒有替代方案，然後台電也說從來沒有探勘過，請問沒有探勘過你怎麼知道沒有？第三，2022年海大教授就說，其實我們希望能夠在基隆這個地方，把地熱列為考慮之一。","院長，我要說的是，你們要極其窮盡所有的努力去找到更多的方案，而不是直接把這個鍋甩給環境部，尤其是院長，我希望你很堅定的說，你剛剛報告講的，地熱是中華民國未來政策重要的重中之重，我希望它會成為卓院長的一個政績。好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。我們只要有任何的訊息，我要請經濟部督促台電跟相關的單位，能夠廣泛的去發掘，臺灣是一個蘊藏量非常豐富的……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！所以請不要輕易的說沒有替代方案，而且替代方案人家都告訴你了。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，地熱目前的成本相當的高。"],["黃委員珊珊：相當高，所以我們現在要借鏡其他國家。這是土耳其的資料，土耳其在2010年只有94MW，但是到2018年成長了將近12倍，也就是要做還是不做，成本一開始都很高，因為要探勘。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們現在的問題是，如同剛剛講的，我們不知道或我們從來沒去探勘過，也不曉得要把它當成國家重要的方向，土耳其的經驗就在眼前，做不做而已。","另外，我們也找到他們的方法，他其實很認真的在做一件事，第一個，他們的政府先把所有地質探勘的資料做完備，提供相關的數據，讓國際企業可以知道或是來協助、來參與；最重要的是提供稅務的減免、補貼的政策，甚至資金的援助；更重要的是先完善地熱的法規。這些環境造就以後，國際企業，就像風電跟光電業者，他就會來，了解這邊的資源之後，他就會評估是不是要在這邊做。","所以我要說的是，行政院只要做這三件事就好，你不用擔心成本，你把地熱的資料弄清楚，提供open data給所有的國際企業，自然會有人做詳細的評估。我相信院長也應該很清楚，我們碰到很多美國商會、歐洲商會的朋友都一直在說，希望得到完整的data而已，有data他們就可以做評估。院長，這件事情還沒開始做耶。"],["卓院長榮泰：非常謝謝委員這個意見，這是非常可行的方式，我們請經濟部下去做。"],["郭部長智輝：是。目前……"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是為什麼還沒開始做，然後又變成重要政策？我希望的是，部長，你可以答應開始做這件事。"],["郭部長智輝：我們開始在做了，我們已經在宜蘭的員山挖了第一口深層的地熱井……"],["黃委員珊珊：我看到了。"],["郭部長智輝：這是在實驗中央研究院他們研究的技術，如果這個技術成功了，代表我們以後挖地熱的成本可以大幅下降，我們非常期待地熱的成本大幅下降，我們就可以快速的來啟動。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，部長，我很期待，因為我們希望如果可以啟動的話，基隆也可以成為你鎖定的一個地方，不管協和電廠未來的命運如何，我們都不應該放棄探勘基隆的地熱，這是第一點。接下來也可以看到美國的計畫，美國的計畫是從現在要提升，未來到2050年要將地熱提升到8.5%，也就是提升20倍以上，它的能源占比為占全美發電8.5%。根據我調的資料，我們臺灣目前在2024年地熱發電是剛剛院長說的7.29MW，占總發電量不到0.1%，然後好像我們的目標是到2030年地熱發電是200MW，占總發電量不到0.3%，部長，這個目標有沒有太低了一點？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，這個部分我們會滾動式的來檢討。"],["黃委員珊珊：野心大一點吧！目標高一點吧！在地熱方面臺灣接下去的問題是，你看！國際的科技巨擘從Google到Meta都在發展地熱做它數據中心的電源，也就是說，像剛剛我講的，只要環境友善，只要法規明確，只要資料健全，這些大的廠商可能到臺灣來就會跟你說他們希望提供這些資料，你提不提得出來？現在的問題就是政府有沒有決心要做這件事。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會加強這一部分的開發。"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得很難過，在2011年國科會早就說了，臺灣的地熱資源豐富，儲存量將近10座核四廠，從2011年到現在已經十多年了，竟然進展只有剛剛部長說今年才開始認真的探勘，其實進度稍嫌緩慢，而且在地熱方面臺灣蘊藏了400GW，宜蘭現在是8.5GW，所以其實宜蘭是一個很重要的方向，而且已經開始了，我們希望趕快加速的進行。另外，我希望院長可以答應，宜蘭、基隆都有豐富的地熱資源，要積極推動開發，第一個，探勘資料要完整，第二個，法規配套要健全，院長，你可以在這個會期給我一個初步的回應嗎？然後探勘資料可以納入基隆嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在已經有10處的潛勢區在探勘。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有基隆。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會請經濟部跟台電研究，因為在整個東北角地帶如果以地形來看，它是有相當的可能性。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長答應把基隆納進去，好不好？就是當你的配套之一。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們去進行研究，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["黃委員珊珊：然後拜託環境部還是要嚴格審查。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及各部會首長備詢。接下來請登記第2位郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}