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的產值1.58兆的情況底下,台積電啊,貢獻了1.2兆。但是台積電用電的比例啊,就綠電的部分啊,佔了整個80%。所以台積電是目前的南科最大的用電大戶。這大家都非常清楚,心知肚明。"},{"start":356.158,"end":368.022,"text":"台積電也早就提出他要加入這R100的部分R100的部分的目標值是2030年的時候60%的綠電2040年的時候要100%的這個綠電然後如果說按照台積電公開的永續報告書我給大家檢視了一下2030年的台積電的整個全台能的這個總資源耗損量的話大概是247.75億度"},{"start":381.374,"end":410.063,"text":"但在2023年的時候只用了25.9億度的綠電比例上大概佔11%距離2023年60%他現在只有11%之多距離非常的遙遠所以關鍵其實在綠電可是台南市在整個太陽能發電的建樹購入的部分總共多少總共9,445件高達21度現在是全台南全台灣最高的"},{"start":411.348,"end":435.317,"text":"所以基本上這種情況底下各種方式以這種從台南的來看的話他有沒有處理我再申訴給你聽另外一個部分整個光電圈是全國最高我們的整個在能源的負擔上面全國的這個蓄血量的能源負擔台南的水庫加總起來佔了56%總共佔了56%"},{"start":439.062,"end":465.969,"text":"所以呢在剛剛我在說的這些整個機組的換專額情況底下我覺得啦講白一點臺電呢在整個第一頁的時候說不能依照中南部的這個送電也就是不能依賴南電北送但是你們現在的開發的政策依然是南電北送啊部長你們實際的說的跟做的不一樣"},{"start":468.061,"end":495.163,"text":"說的是說不要南電北送希望北部負擔多一點但做的呢就是要南部負擔多一點報告委員我想如果是如你所說的說我們說的跟做的不一樣那這個我們要回去要來檢討一下為什麼我們說的跟做的不一樣對 部長問題就出在這邊嘛你現在所有都跑到南部去了我再來跟你講你為什麼會有這樣的結果"},{"start":497.889,"end":524.611,"text":"依照整個你們提到的10年的這個電力規劃上面我提到說有放寬這個PPA合約要為了滿足用電的需求為了追求這個KPI的部分目前是只有九威跟中江你知道嗎你拿九威跟中江的類比老實講是很奇怪的中江它在原來一個工業區舊工業區裡面它旁邊根本沒有所謂的住宅區的問題"},{"start":526.535,"end":542.636,"text":"這你清楚嗎?更何況中家本身背後的業者是房地產業者你真的確定他的專業嗎?再加上中家本身還有銀行連帶的問題你有去了解嗎?結果台電發出來新聞稿說中家是成功的案例"},{"start":543.68,"end":561.375,"text":"跟你講你沒有去了解實情現階段的整個久違也是拿PPA的狀況這種情況底下齁我跟你講短期內你要透過民間的這些電廠達到你十年計劃的情況底下老師說我是抱持著存疑我也讓那個院長知道"},{"start":563.491,"end":579.111,"text":"整個經濟部寫得非常好聽20GW要成長到47GW但是也不用悲觀我跟院長跟部長說明為什麼因為可以超支債給的在哪裡在台電本身在經濟部本身在能源署本身"},{"start":580.032,"end":604.615,"text":"人權署不要把只有把責任下放給台電而已你去看看喔,台電的機組當中不論是大潭、興達、森霸、大林、通宵、協和這幾個機組你10年起來加不來台漢布蘭岡是16.6GW也就是在你總體的新增計畫當中呢遠遠超過一半以上再加上你既有的這一個機組是不是要馬上研議還有調度的空間啊"},{"start":606.022,"end":634.353,"text":"對你天然氣的這個達標的可能性是有的啊不是沒有的啊 部長就是說你要去想看看操之在己的在哪裡你們可以要求了應該是要求台電要求能源署為什麼這些機組不會像有新生的機組這些問題新生的電廠這些問題因為他不用同意函嘛他不用環比嘛他只要將原來的機組來做個替換就可以了只是你們替換的速度快或慢而已啊"},{"start":635.903,"end":661.363,"text":"那個部長你回去想一下為什麼你們替換速度這麼慢為什麼為什麼別人要三年你們要六年這樣你們自己拖到的情況底下你才你才趕快想要修改這個辦法要修改的辦法呢你對我講什麼說台電的說法說要因為啊環評要兩年所以你要放寬"},{"start":662.577,"end":692.092,"text":"放寬這個所謂電業規則第三條的規定把還品跟同意書拿掉用這種方式來做處理結果呢你這樣的情況底下這樣的結果就是台電會欲速則不達你給廠商這些入廠券他沒有辦法處理他說兩年我跟你講久違到現在已經兩年了部長久違在前年的時候10月給他跟他簽約的到現在兩年了到現在大家還在抗議啊對啊"},{"start":693.717,"end":715.915,"text":"有比較快嗎?就結果來看,也沒有比較快啊,只是擾民而已啊。有達到你的政策目標嗎?部長,你好像要講話,讓你講一下。報告委員,我想九威這一個是,雖然投標的時候,這個免備、環評跟地方政府的同樣,但得標以後仍然需要。"},{"start":716.997,"end":726.265,"text":"所以經濟部在發這個這個籌設或者擴建的許可你這樣的情況底下他如果萬一沒有辦法得標的情況底下他是不是上面一直繞來繞去"},{"start":727.79,"end":749.155,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":750.438,"end":765.689,"text":"是保證表面上說都沒有拿到什麼PPA許可可是他到處給你辦那個公聽會謝謝 謝謝委員這個指導這樣不是造成人心惶惶嗎我們大概在之前他們在處理這件事情的時候沒有考慮到委員所指導的這個部分"},{"start":766.469,"end":792.623,"text":"對嘛 這個我們現在回去會深刻的檢討你要深刻檢討部長 深刻檢討的方式呢就是依照電業登記規則電業登記規則訂的是誰訂的 是政府訂的啊經濟部訂的啊 能源署訂的啊你可不可以授權給台電那麼大的空間三項可以變成 五項可以變成三項你應該留著自己控管才對啊我們還是依法行事啦因為依法行事才對嘛 對不對是 但會感覺上就是能源署啊"},{"start":793.868,"end":817.86,"text":"都要當好人啊,壞人要台電去當啊讓台電衝在最前線啊台電要把他轉包出去給廠商放在最前線啊層層下放啊大家爭相當好人沒有要當壞人啊大家都想要那個結果、業績啊不想要扛那個責任啊就形成這種文化啊對不對所以我建議部長應該把這個主導權拿回來"},{"start":821.986,"end":844.636,"text":"甚至能把整個能源政策的控管拿在你的手中不要讓能源署只會發包給台電而已那台北要轉發包給民間電廠這層層發包結果怎麼樣你來自於商界你最清楚嘛所以我真的是在這個時候慎重的提醒你錯誤的政策應該做修正跟導正"},{"start":847.031,"end":863.593,"text":"所以說我請你回去之後好好想清楚依照現有的這個機制當中要如何形成一個新的退場機制出來不要造成地方的一個紛紛擾擾可以嗎可以好最後我要跟部長講部長再來講為什麼對能源署有意見"},{"start":865.475,"end":885.903,"text":"你們在八月的時候提出一個能源用地白皮書啦,裡頭寫得很清楚,要用屋頂行為優先。因為呢,你們地面行已經,地面行十二,要十二,屋頂八幾個月,八幾個月政策目標已經達成了,可是地面行沒有。你對我來講說可能到2026,這個我可以理解,我可以理解。"},{"start":887.384,"end":911.397,"text":"但是我必須說你後面的部分還是要屋頂型為優先你們一開始是這樣子你那種說法讓人家覺得你好像要走地面型為什麼說走那個屋頂型呢因為台灣的整個面積本來狹小你用地用了之後那不知道20年以後的事情但就整個用電的比例最多其實集中在都市區六都當中佔了60%所以說都市建築當中的屋頂的這一個光電的這一個承擔責任應該責無旁貸"},{"start":916.394,"end":916.414,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":967.432,"end":971.6,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝郭國文委員的諮詢,謝謝左院長跟經濟部長的備詢,謝謝。接下來請登記第三號,王鴻薇委員諮詢。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":133,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時53分）主席，有請卓院長跟郭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：郭委員好。"],["郭委員國文：院長好，院長，我接續黃珊珊委員剛剛最後講的所謂的地熱能源開發，我認為地熱能源開發現階段比較主要的問題是在於土地的部分，因為土地大部分都是在特農，所以必須要越過這個法規的部分，要透過中研院來進行開發，這當然是一個途徑，但中研院自己本身能夠開發的能量有多少，可能要去面對這個問題，如果要提高地熱能量的話，可能要重新思考一下，我首先給院長做一個建議，請院長稍作休息，我跟部長對話一下。","部長，我想台電在整個總體不缺電又不能長期依賴中南部送電的這個部分已經對外多次表示態度，而且這個新聞是在8月15號的時候，那我們就看整個夏季用電的部分，你去看看中南部的用電都是供過於求，北部很清楚就是供不應求，這個很清楚。在這種情況底下，台電也一直在想說北部應該負擔比較多的能源政策負擔，否則長期的傳輸其實會增加耗損。從以往而言，整個發電都是從區域的角度來思考，就是北、中、南跟東部，那本席為什麼一開始跟你提到這個問題？因為上次你們創造一個新的名詞，也就是行政區域自主率的問題，而行政區域自主率的問題，你還特別強調臺南市的部分只有20%，本席來換算給你聽，臺南市或許在你舊的資料當中是20%，但是本席以去（2023）年臺南市的用電總共是328億度來計算的話，森霸目前的裝置容量大概是2GW，臺南市的整個太陽能光電已將近有4.5GW的裝置容量，扣掉沒有日照的時間，它能夠供應的至少有四分之一以上、至少1GW。","另外，因為我們那邊有4座水力發電廠，包括曾文、烏山頭以及八田跟西口，這4座加起來有3億度左右，我用最嚴格的標準來計算的話，臺南市的部分是120加60加3，就有183，你如果換算在隔壁，你知道嗎？隔壁的興達電廠在哪裡？它就在北高雄，它距離臺南市幾公里？只有5公里，北高雄是什麼地方？茄萣，茄萣的人從求學、生活都是在臺南市出入，同樣的道理，這個電廠離臺南市只有5公里，涵蓋的面積30公里的情況底下，臺南市在能源負擔的部分至少負擔一半，你知道現在興達發電廠大概發電200億度的情況底下，臺南至少會占一半的情況下，我換算起來，夯不啷噹，臺南在整個你所謂的能源自主率的部分加總起來，以去年用電的母數來計算，我覺得大約就有八成之多，我第一個就數字上給部長做參考，部長，您的看法如何？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我要再回去了解一下，再重新……"],["郭委員國文：你確實要了解。"],["郭部長智輝：就委員所指導的這個方向，我們再重新去深入的了解。"],["郭委員國文：部長，你需要了解。這個所謂在推動臺南需要火力發電廠、天然氣發電廠已經有預設的目標，才會創造這個名詞，才會用低估的數字讓你去前面當成擋箭牌在擋箭；第二個部分，他用南科的理由，南科的部分我再跟你說，當初台電核准南科的供電量是3.3GW，目前用的是2.3GW，只用了七成，然後整個用電計畫，在未來的一年大概150億度，而占整個臺南市的用電，整個南科大概占了45%，加上你未來也有南科的整個用電規劃，因為南科太重要了，你二期的1.1GW，七股的2.2GW，再加上興達電廠的1.5GW，總共你要for南科的就有4.6GW，所以南科怎麼會缺電？目前沒有，但南科有缺什麼電？我還是要強調一下，南科缺的是綠電，我把所有的數字整理出來一一跟你說明。","你知道目前為止，臺南328億度用電量的部分，工業部門的部分用電大概是250億度，占大約七成，臺南工業用電的需求非常高，你再檢視一下，在南科的產值1.58兆的情況底下，台積電貢獻了1.2兆，但是台積電用電的比例，就綠電的部分占了80%，所以台積電是目前南科最大的用電大戶，這個大家都非常清楚，心知肚明，台積電也早就提出它要加入RE100的部分，RE100的目標值是2030的時候要60%的綠電，2040年的時候要100%的綠電。如果說按照台積電公開的永續報告書，我檢視了一下，2030年台積電的整個全臺南的總資源耗損量大概是247.75億度，但是在2023年的時候只用了25.9億度的綠電，比例上大概占11%，距離2030年的60%，它現在只有11%之多，距離非常的遙遠，所以關鍵其實是在綠電。可是臺南市在整個太陽能發電的件數購入的部分總共多少？總共9,445件，高達20億度，現在是全臺灣最高的，所以基本上，在這種情況底下，各種方式，以從臺南來看的話，他有沒有處理？我再申論給你聽。","另外一個部分，整個光電雖然是全國最高，我們整個在能源的負擔上面，全國蓄水量的能源負擔，臺南的水庫加總起來總共占了56%，所以剛剛我在說的這些整個機組換裝的情況底下，我覺得，講白一點，在第一頁的時候我說台電不能依賴中南部的送電，也就是不能依賴南電北送，但是你們現在開發的政策依然是要南電北送啊！部長，你們實際說的跟做的不一樣，說的是不要南電北送，希望北部負擔多一點，但做的就是要南部負擔多一點。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想如果……"],["郭委員國文：你覺得我這個數字哪邊有錯誤，請你指正啊！"],["郭部長智輝：如果是如您所說，我們說的跟做的不一樣，那這個我們回去要檢討一下，為什麼我們說的跟做的不一樣。"],["郭委員國文：對，部長，問題就出在這邊嘛！你現在所有都跑到南部去了。","好，我再跟你講，為什麼會有這樣的結果？依照整個你們提到的10年電力規劃，我提到說有放寬PPA合約，為了滿足用電的需求、為了追求KPI的部分，目前只有九崴跟中佳，你知道嗎？拿九崴跟中佳類比，老實講是很奇怪的！中佳原來在一個舊工業區裡面，它旁邊根本沒有所謂住宅區的問題，對不對？這你清楚嘛！更何況中佳本身背後的業者是房地產業者，你真的確定它的專業嗎？再加上中佳本身還有銀行聯貸的問題，你有去了解嗎？結果台電發出的新聞稿說中佳是成功的案例。跟你講，你沒有去了解實情，現階段整個九崴也是拿PPA的狀況，這種情況底下，我跟你講，短期內你要透過民間這些電廠達到你10年計畫，老實說，我是抱持著存疑！我也讓院長知道。","整個經濟部寫得非常好聽，20GW要成長到47GW，但是也不用悲觀，我跟院長跟部長說明，為什麼？因為可以操之在己的在哪裡？在台電本身！在經濟部本身！在能源署本身！能源署不要只把責任下放給台電而已，你去看看台電的機組當中，不論是大潭、興達、森霸、大林、通霄、協和這幾個機組，10年加起來夯不噹啷是16.6GW，也就是在總體新增計畫當中，遠遠超過一半以上，再加上既有的機組是不是要馬上延役，還有調度的空間。所以你的天然氣達標的可能性是有的，不是沒有的，部長，也就是說，你要去想看看操之在己的在哪裡？你們可以要求的應該是要求台電、要求能源署，為什麼這些機組不會有像新生機組、新生電廠的這些問題，因為它不用同意函、它不用環評，它只要將原來的機組做個替換就可以了，只是你們替換的速度快或慢而已。","部長，你回去想一下，為什麼你們替換速度這麼慢，為什麼？為什麼別人要3年，你們要6年？這樣你們自己拖到的情況底下，你才趕快想要修改這個辦法。對於修改的辦法，你對外講什麼？台電的說法是，因為環評要兩年，所以你要放寬所謂電業規則第三條的規定，把環評跟同意書拿掉，用這種方式來做處理，結果在這樣的情況底下，這樣的結果就是台電會欲速則不達！你給廠商這些入場券，它沒有辦法處理，它說兩年，我跟你講，九崴到現在已經兩年了，部長，九崴在前年10月的時候跟它簽約的，到現在兩年了，到現在大家還在抗議啊！有比較快嗎？就結果來看也沒有比較快啊！只是擾民而已啊！有達到你的政策目標嗎？部長，你好像要講話，讓你講一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，九崴雖然投標的時候免備環評跟地方政府的同意，但得標以後仍然需要。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["郭部長智輝：所以經濟部在發籌設或者擴建許可……"],["郭委員國文：在這樣的情況底下，它萬一沒有辦法得標，它是不是在那邊一直繞來繞去，影響到整個政府的威信？會不會讓整個天然氣被地方污名化、被在野黨污名化、被民眾唾棄？會不會變成這樣子？天然氣後面要怎麼推？你有沒有考慮到後續的副作用？更何況部長上任之後看這樣的狀況，九崴在推，有樣看樣，寶椿以為這樣可以，結果又來一個寶椿，寶椿表面上說都沒有拿到什麼PPA許可，可是它到處給你辦公聽會。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員指導。"],["郭委員國文：這樣不是造成人心惶惶嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：之前他們在處理這件事情的時候，沒有考慮到委員所指導的這個部分。"],["郭委員國文：對嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們現在回去會深刻的檢討，看要怎麼處理。"],["郭委員國文：要深刻的檢討，部長，深刻檢討的方式就是依照電業登記規則，電業登記規則是政府訂的、經濟部訂的、能源署訂的，你怎麼授權台電那麼大的空間，五項可以變成三項？你應該留著自己控管才對啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們還是依法行事啦！"],["郭委員國文：因為依法行事才對嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["郭委員國文：不然，感覺上就是能源署要當好人，壞人要台電去當啦！讓台電衝在最前線，台電又把它轉包出去，把廠商放在最前線，層層下放，大家爭相當好人，沒有人要當壞人，大家都想要那個業績，不想要扛那個責任，就形成這種文化，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["郭委員國文：所以我建議部長應該把主導權拿回來，甚至把整個能源政策的控管拿在你的手中，不要讓能源署只會發包給台電而已，台電又轉發包給民間電廠，層層發包的結果怎麼樣，你來自於商界，你最清楚嘛！在這個時候我真的要慎重的提醒你，錯誤的政策應該做修正跟導正，所以請你回去之後好好想清楚，依照現有的機制，要如何形成一個新的退場機制出來，不要造成地方的紛紛擾擾，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["郭委員國文：好。","最後我要跟部長講，為什麼我對能源署有意見？你們在8月的時候提出一個能源用地白皮書，裡頭寫得很清楚，要以屋頂型為優先，因為地面型12GW、屋頂型8GW，8GW的政策目標已經達成了，可是地面型沒有，你對外講說可能要到2026年，這個我可以理解，但是我必須說後面還是要以屋頂型為優先，你們一開始是這樣子，你那個說法會讓人家覺得好像要走地面型。為什麼要走屋頂型呢？因為臺灣的整個面積本來就狹小，用地用了之後，那可能是二十年以後的事情，但整個用電比率最多的其實集中在都市區，六都占了60%，所以都市建築當中的屋頂承擔光電的責任應該責無旁貸，可是我們現在卻把整個能源負擔都放在非都市區，所以要以屋頂型優先，才能朝都市區來發展，也因此在去年通過的再生能源發展條例當中就有一個規定，但是能源署跟內政部開了七次會還沒有達成共識，連那個300坪的問題也沒有達成共識。我計算過，300坪只能產生0.15GW，所以不能太寬鬆，不然就沒有意義了。我建議你不要把這部分推給內政部，拿回來自己做。"],["郭部長智輝：我們在推節能減碳的時候會把新的項目列入考慮。"],["郭委員國文：對，由你們自己來處理，否則，如果太寬鬆的話，屋頂型300坪，蓋了大家都要用電，結果大家都不願意在屋頂上做，哪有這種事情？院長，麻煩你啦！謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭國文委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長跟經濟部部長的備詢。","接下來請登記第3號王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}