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我說這是不是分贓,我說碳費當然不是分贓,利益分贓。"},{"start":468.695,"end":484.656,"text":"如果大家誤解我向委員致歉事實上因為碳費有13個用途本來就有一個是要補助給地方因為盧市長說要八成給地方然後有原住民委員說兩成要做原住民基本上其實有13個項目在裡面"},{"start":486.178,"end":512.65,"text":"我們必須說整個碳費要減量的指定目標是在中央政府我認為我今天沒有要跟你討論碳費這個議題但是我講就是說區域的均衡發展我覺得對於南部的重視如果我南部減碳的減碳量比較高我南部的產業發展的需求包括你現在電廠都蓋在南部實際上你對於南部的照顧其實是應該多一點的我的邏輯概念是這樣好來"},{"start":514.671,"end":520.039,"text":"接下來那個環境部請回喔院長那講到這個發電講到用電量電價"},{"start":525.457,"end":551.232,"text":"剛剛大家也都在問嘛臺電這個電價審議委員會調整了幾次電價大家都說工業用電比較高那您也談到了臺電因為過去幾次的動漲所以臺電的財政缺口是很大的對不對所以我們在總預算裡頭我們也編列了一千億的撥補可是現在國民黨的主席說他們要發動大家來阻擋"},{"start":554.302,"end":579.7,"text":"臺電的這個這個撥補你的1000億補給臺電臺電是去吸收全民動漲民生用電動漲之後的成本是不是所以這個等於是撥補等於是幫助全民拿來把它跟淨法補償金一起做比較淨法補償金只有不到10%的原住民朋友是可以領得到的"},{"start":580.376,"end":595.701,"text":"但是對於臺灣的用電安全對於臺灣的整體的電價維持甚至臺電的營運這個一千億是必要的嗎?院長您同意我的看法嗎?是的那未來你們會怎麼做呢?"},{"start":597.073,"end":597.473,"text":"本院議員"},{"start":619.645,"end":640.219,"text":"能夠得到大多數委員的同意。我希望週五明之後能夠得到委員的同意。我們一起。因為院長您的態度跟這個敗會其實是很重要啦齁。剛剛講到電價的問題我就要持續再請教您喔。好多的委員都說核電比較便宜,你同意嗎?"},{"start":641.601,"end":653.611,"text":"用核電有沒有比較便宜剛剛談到了韓國郭部長你也特別講了嘛韓國在10月24號又漲了工業電價9.7%又漲了9.7%韓國的發電量核電佔了三成韓國的核電發電量佔了三成所以韓國現在的產業電價他的工業用電的電價是也高過於台灣來"},{"start":671.315,"end":683.112,"text":"這是讓您看一下韓國現在的發電配比它的核能是佔了三成如果核能是比較便宜的話韓國為什麼在兩年內要七度調漲電價"},{"start":685.971,"end":710.203,"text":"報告委員這個跟我們一樣主要他還是因為你看他的天然氣跟燃煤這個韓國本身沒有辦法採取到這個天然氣跟燃煤他一定要一樣跟我們從其他的國家來進口所以這個成本的結構大家都差不多的所以他但是我的看法就是說核電並沒有比較便宜啊"},{"start":711.916,"end":734.493,"text":"對不是這樣嗎對對對你的核電的發電量如果說你的核電是可以這樣子cover的話其實韓國不需要7度調漲電價嘛那大家現在一直都在問說核四要重啟要求行政院現在要重新評估核能、核電的使用院長您剛有一句話講得很好喔有沒有去問過新北市的市民"},{"start":735.778,"end":759.827,"text":"合一、合二、合四都在新北。剛剛前一位委員說合三還可以放,還可以再放五年,所以那一核廢料可以放在合三,那有沒有去問過屏東人?反正不是放在他家,把人家都洗不掉,是這樣改良嗎?合廢料如果不能處理的話,要如何去談重啟核能呢?"},{"start":764.516,"end":773.532,"text":"韓國在發展核能甚至把核能廠都輸出了但是你看看他這麼用心用在核能上面他也不是百分百用核能"},{"start":775.34,"end":791.209,"text":"如果說他在推核能他應該要百分之百推核能他沒有人敢百分之百用那麼高的核能所以我現在要跟您談的就是說我們現在你這個再生能源的配比核能在台灣是越來越萎縮"},{"start":792.19,"end":811.59,"text":"再生能源的配比是越來越高你看到我們現在的這個比重發電結構的比重包括我們在前幾天的風力發電都撐過了颱風的考驗我們的風力發電扛下了核電退廠的空缺您同意我的看法吧因為這個風力發電它是綠色能源"},{"start":815.563,"end":818.786,"text":"未來臺灣的風力發電能不能扛起這個重責大任當我們現在不再要求全部國產化的時候"},{"start":834.099,"end":834.119,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":852.765,"end":873.356,"text":"我們當然是可以的,因為現在的科技非常的進步,所以我們可以去觀察跟去monitor他的狀況,所以我其實是非常有把握的,就是未來的風機一定會比過去的風機表現得更好,而且就像您剛才所說的,這個經過颱風的洗禮,他還是屹立不搖,"},{"start":878.151,"end":878.552,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":894.452,"end":919.608,"text":"如果是這樣因為我最後剩下30秒我本來還要問這所謂新能源的開發跟規劃剛剛有談到地熱跟氫能院長你講地熱的成本很高氫能的成本也相對高但是我還沒有在報告裡頭看到具體關於氫能或者是地熱開發的這些時程進度有沒有可能再補一份報告給本席或者是給立法院"},{"start":920.508,"end":945.531,"text":"就你們現在有的規劃跟開發的時程地熱的深層、地熱的開發目前在宜蘭園山正在探勘當中我們希望他能夠探勘出有一定的成果之後我們才向大家來做報告謝謝邱議員委員的諮詢謝謝左院長、部長的備詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（10時42分）謝謝韓院長，是不是請卓院長跟經濟部部長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：院長早！院長，今天我們來討論臺灣整體能源配比跟電價的相關問題，早上從剛剛聽到現在，我突然發現立法院變成了一個擁核大會。院長，我讓您看一下，這是今年10月22號由台電公布的臺灣現在發電的能源配比，很清楚地看到這裡面沒有核電、沒有核電！臺灣的燃煤占三成三左右，燃氣則將近五成、49.5%，光電跟風電，也就是所謂的再生能源，大幅地上漲，院長，這個您有看過吧？我想經濟部應該每天都會持續掌握我們的能源發電配比。到目前為止，臺灣因為核三2號機組歲修，所以臺灣現在是沒有核能發電的。","來！院長，要跟您請教，這個跟我們今天討論的議題有關，就是能源配比的部分。我們剛剛談到了能源發電方式，包括燃氣、燃煤、光電等，我們一直討論發電的方式，但沒有人真正去討論發電的區位在哪裡？用電的區位在哪裡？院長，請您看一下，2023年北部的供電量是750億度，但是它的用電量是931億度；中部的供電量是883億度，它的用電量是620億度；南部供電量有811億度，但是它的用電量只有745億度。換句話說，我們都非常清楚臺灣長年都是供電區域不平衡，院長，您同意我的看法嗎？長年都是南電北送，用南部來發電給臺北使用。這個圖是未來2025年的時候，北東的用電將會到達600萬瓩，但是只剩下和平電廠130萬瓩可以發電，如果我們的供電量繼續這樣發展下去，北部發電量跟用電量的缺口將會到達470萬瓩，這個也是從台電拿出來的資料，院長，您看過吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：接下來我要給院長一點時間。院長，您前兩天到桃竹苗去，你說開發桃竹苗大矽谷要挺水電開發才會有希望，我剛剛給您看的，北部的供電缺口這麼大，北部連蓋一個超高壓的變電所都會受到阻撓，到目前為止，台電一直沒有辦法施工，那未來呢？臺北人要用什麼發電？臺北的供電要從哪裡來？您說桃竹苗要發展大矽谷，大家現在都要發展AI產業，都要去做科學園區，北部的供電哪裡來？院長，您說要挺水電開發，我可不可以再給您一點時間，讓您再更詳細的說明您的水電開發要怎麼做？"],["卓院長榮泰：最直接、最快速、看得到的，當然就是我們第三接收站完成之後，大潭電廠就可以因為天然氣的使用而順利發電，它會逐步提高它的發電量，機組會開始運作。另外一個就是現在還在努力環評的第四接收站，將來的協和電廠也是要透過第四接收站來啟動它的燃氣機組，這兩個電廠的量如果大起來之後，相對對於北東電網、整個北部地區的用電會有明顯的改善，目前是朝向這樣，其他當然還有一些IPP民營電廠在做其他的努力，建造過程……"],["邱委員議瑩：看起來我們還是要去說服如果北部持續不給蓋電廠的話，剛剛郭國文委員很強烈的反對把這麼多的電廠蓋在臺南、蓋在高雄，區域的發電平衡也是未來行政院應該要去考量的，如果產業的發展不能平衡的話，那未來這一些半導體、AI產業全部拉到我們南部來嘛！南部的電是足夠供應的，南部的水是足夠供應的，全部拉到南部來嘛，對不對？不能你用電要用在臺北，然後又不給蓋電廠、又不給發展，這個太奇怪了吧！院長您同意我的看法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是希望能夠區域平衡，南電北送的這種狀況，如果能夠把它做合理的規劃，這用整個的輸配電系統來看也是比較安全的，所以……"],["邱委員議瑩：是啊，所謂強韌電網的制度，包括輸配電的成本降低，這個其實都在未來我們談到臺灣的韌性電網的整個大方向、大計畫裡面嘛！所以如果發電的區域不能平衡的話，那我覺得我們南部人為什麼要一直承受南電北送這樣的壓力呢？更何況……"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣各地的發展會很快。有適當的地點、能夠得到地方政府跟地方居民的同意，如果有好的地點適合開發，我們也認為應該及早儲備更充裕的電能，對南北中各地都是需要的。"],["邱委員議瑩：多元能源的開發，這個我是非常支持，在經濟委員會的質詢裡頭，我也曾多次強調，但是你要看到工商產業、重工業在南部，發電在南部，我要跟你談到這個問題，未來會講到碳費的分配比例，我們南部多爭取一點，環境部就跟我們說這個不是財政分贓，院長，這個我就不能接受了。用要用南部的，但是關於碳費的收取，我如果要求我們南部多分一點，讓產業去做減碳，讓產業去更新設備，這樣不合理嗎？這樣你跟我說這個叫財政分贓，我不知道部長、環境部是不是講得太快了，但是如果就這樣的邏輯來看，我勢必是要替南部多講一些話、要替我們高雄多講一些話。"],["卓院長榮泰：讓部長答復……"],["邱委員議瑩：來，部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得碳費在環境變遷法當中是有它使用的限制性，請部長回復。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實因為是媒體問我這是不是分贓，我說碳費當然不是利益分贓，如果大家誤解，我向委員致歉。事實上因為碳費有13個用途，本來就有1個是要補助給地方，因為盧市長說要八成給地方，然後有原住民委員說兩成要做原住民的部分。基本上其實有13個項目在裡面，我們必須說，整個碳費要減量的指定目標是在中央政府。"],["邱委員議瑩：我今天沒有要跟你討論碳費這個議題，但是我要講的是，基於區域的均衡發展，我覺得對於南部的重視，如果我們南部減碳量比較高，加上南部產業發展的需求，包括現在電廠都蓋在南部，實際上對於南部的照顧其實是應該多一點的，我的邏輯概念是這樣。環境部請回。","接下來，院長，講到發電、用電量、電價，剛剛大家也都在問台電、電價審議委員會調整了幾次電價，大家都說工業用電比較高，您也談到了台電因為過去幾次的凍漲，所以台電的財政缺口是很大的，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以我們在總預算裡頭也編列了1,000億的撥補，可是現在國民黨的主席說，他們要發動大家來阻擋台電這個撥補。你的1,000億補給台電，台電是去吸收全民凍漲、民生用電凍漲之後的成本，是不是？所以這個撥補等於是幫助全民，拿來把它跟禁伐補償金一起做比較，禁伐補償金只有不到10%的原住民朋友是可以領得到的，但是對於臺灣的用電安全，對於臺灣整體的電價維持，甚至台電的營運，這個1,000億是必要的嘛，院長，您同意我的看法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，未來你們會怎麼做呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是極力來爭取包括追加預算的1,000億跟明年的總預算。針對明年的中央政府總預算，我是認為現在我們已經準備朝向一個好的開始，至少在禮拜五我就要來向大院做中央政府總預算的報告跟說明，我期待經過說明之後，能夠得到大多數委員的同意……"],["邱委員議瑩：說明之後還不知道能不能付委審查耶。"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望說明之後能夠得到委員的同意，我們一起……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以院長，您的態度跟拜會其實是很重要的。剛剛講到電價的問題，我就持續再請教您，好多委員都說核電比較便宜，你同意嗎？用核電有沒有比較便宜？剛剛談到了韓國，郭部長你也特別講了，韓國在10月24日又漲了工業電價9.7%。在韓國的發電量中，韓國的核電發電量占了三成，所以韓國現在的產業電價、工業用電電價也高過於臺灣，請您看一下韓國現在的發電配比，它的核能是占了三成。如果核能是比較便宜的話，韓國為什麼在兩年內要7度調漲電價？部長，你可以跟我回答嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個跟我們一樣，主要它還是因為……你看它的天然氣跟燃煤，韓國本身沒有辦法採取到天然氣跟燃煤，它一定要跟我們一樣，從其他的國家來進口，所以這個成本的結構大家都差不多的。所以它……"],["邱委員議瑩：但是我的看法就是，核電並沒有比較便宜啊，不是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對、對、對。"],["邱委員議瑩：以核電的發電量來看，如果核電是可以這樣子cover的話，其實韓國不需要7度調漲電價嘛。大家現在一直都在問核四要重啟，要求行政院現在要重新評估核能、核電的使用。院長，你剛剛有一句話講得很好，有沒有去問過新北市的市民，核一、核二、核四都在新北，剛剛前一位委員說核三還可以放，還可以再放5年，所以核廢料可以放在核三，那有沒有去問過屏東人？反正不是放在他家，別人的孩子都死不完，是這樣的概念嗎？核廢料如果不能處理的話，要如何去談重啟核能呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，韓國是在發展核能，甚至於它把核能廠都輸出了，但是你看看它這麼用心在核能上面，它也不是百分之百用核能。"],["邱委員議瑩：是啊！"],["郭部長智輝：如果它在推核能，它應該要百分之百推核能，但是沒有人敢百分之百用那麼高的核能。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以我現在要跟你談的是再生能源的配比，核能在臺灣是越來越萎縮，再生能源的配比是越來越高，你看到我們現在的發電結構比重，包括我們的風力發電在前幾天都撐過了颱風的考驗，我們的風力發電扛下了核電退場的空缺，你同意我的看法吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是，因為風力發電是綠色能源，核能是潔淨能源，這有兩個不同的團體在世界上主推。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我現在要再進一步請教，未來臺灣的風力發電能不能扛起這個重責大任，當我們現在不再要求全部國產化的時候，我們也看到中國的風力發電機被颱風一吹全部折斷了，臺灣的是安然無恙，但是你未來不再要求全部國產化的時候，我們的品質能不能還是維持一樣？你的風機品質能不能維持一樣，有沒有這個信心可以做得到？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是可以，因為現在的科技非常進步，所以我們可以去觀察、monitoring它的狀況，所以我其實是非常有把握的，未來的風機一定會比過去的風機表現得更好，而且就像你剛才所說的，經過颱風的洗禮，它還是屹立不搖，但是在中國基本上它的信賴程度沒有那麼高，所以經過一個颱風以後它就折斷了。我們國產化的目的是讓它具有世界競爭力，我們不是……"],["邱委員議瑩：如果是這樣，我最後剩下30秒，我本來還要問所謂的新能源開發及規劃，剛剛也有談到地熱和氫能，院長，你講地熱的成本很高，氫能的成本也相對高，但是我還沒有在報告裡面看到具體關於氫能或地熱開發的時程進度，有沒有可能再補一份報告給本席或是給立法院，就你們現在有的規劃及開發時程？"],["卓院長榮泰：深層地熱的開發目前在宜蘭員山正在探勘當中，我們希望能夠探勘出一定的成果之後，我們才向大家做報告，隨時跟委員做說明。"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望能夠建立一個模型。"],["邱委員議瑩：還有包括氫能的進度，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、部長的備詢。","報告院會，現在我們休息10分鐘。","休息（10時58分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}