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下一個問題請教就我們如何加速這個綠電的轉型讓企業的採購環境能夠優化"},{"start":561.754,"end":566.79,"text":"當然這是一個協會所提出的建議我覺得這建議可以提供給政府做參考"},{"start":568.157,"end":571.939,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":595.572,"end":612.17,"text":"受限風險檢討PPA漁電回購機制政府長您是專家但是很多人都不了解到底政府的政策方向在哪裡另外,海洋光電獨立取得困難怎麼樣政府可以做一些的努力從中協助這四項議題"},{"start":615.168,"end":636.623,"text":"報告委員 我想我們這個分短期跟長期來看短期也就是2030年為止這個H100他們有規定大概在這個2030年他有一個第一個階段的這個目標那我們就是全力以赴就是2030年的時候我們讓台灣的綠電可以上升到30%以上那可以的話朝40%再努力2032年"},{"start":639.884,"end":653.729,"text":"長遠來講我們的真正的目標就是2050年的時候要進行檢探那所以我們現在目前就電力跟綠電這兩個命題來努力的話我們現在透過深度節能可以馬上"},{"start":655.169,"end":678.515,"text":"馬上在既有的電力設施之下我們可以增加這四項議題只是提供給經濟部做參考至於說怎麼樣去落實他們所提出的訴求我想這個對綠電的轉型很重要那可能在委員會我們可以討論剛剛你說提到深度接能那203億這個經費行政院好像還沒有明確的出處"},{"start":680.236,"end":681.998,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":702.661,"end":725.12,"text":"你那深度節能的部分我們編在那個中小微企業裡面的這個部分設備的太久換薪對 設備太久換薪的部分我們大概在那個我們有修改了一個那個什麼新創條例那個實質產業創新條例那我可能最近就會排因為有朝委嘛我就盡快排"},{"start":726.5,"end":743.509,"text":"我們真正的就是要把這個從國營的企業開始做起,然後來帶動建立一個模型﹖這個方向是正確的,我是擔心這203億沒有裁員﹖這個另外的,另外的部分,這個屬於這個企業自己自發的這樣的一個領域,203億那個是補助中小微的"},{"start":749.272,"end":777.366,"text":"但是我們有更大的計畫整個大概4年下來可能要花到上兆的預算但這個不在我們公務預算裡面好 謝謝那下一個問題請教就是地樂地樂不像風力它有時間限制地樂市發電的效率比較高台灣市有很好的條件地樂資源豐富但發展非常緩慢我覺得應該有好的誘因、好的政策"},{"start":778.326,"end":795.977,"text":"到底為什麼誘因不足要去了解高太陽開案的風險高的初期投資成本這部分可以學習土耳其跟印尼的經驗進步來諸得讓初期的成本能夠降低所以這部分我覺得我們有潛力但潛力沒有發揮這個很可惜很可惜"},{"start":799.962,"end":821.542,"text":"我提供這個議題給部長我們可能另外在委員會再來討論用電大戶條款這到底什麼時候會出爐本來是兩年之內要提出目前是5000千瓦以上是用電大戶現在2003年能源署就應該要提出檢討報告"},{"start":822.779,"end":847.227,"text":"到現在還是沒有那檢討報告什麼時候會出爐門檻的會不會提高這部分這博定率跟他們了解這會影響很大用年大戶的標準門檻這個我們還是會滾動式的去調整他必須要在依法要在2003年提出檢討報告兩年提出嘛那一直演一直演一直演"},{"start":848.001,"end":872.51,"text":"那你現在實施不出來,到底用電電大戶目前你們的方向是怎麼樣檢討報告是法令要兩年要檢討一次那你檢討報告什麼時候出爐這很重要門檻跟綠電的比例會不會調整這到底有方向嗎這個我想謝謝委員這個我們回去以後會針對您剛才所指示的這一個題目我們馬上去了解一下"},{"start":873.15,"end":894.276,"text":"今天能源署也在齁能源署也在我在找時間來討論因為這個很重要大家在問到底會不會出現會不會趕快出爐然後門檻會不會提升利率比例會不會調整如果有這個規定我們應該可以有這樣一個答案再生能源發展條例當中它一個條文是有規定到說這個用電契約容量達到剛剛委員寫到5000"},{"start":896.437,"end":923.916,"text":"五千千瓦以上的電力用戶他必須自己要有一些再生能源的發電設備、儲能設備或是購買一定的綠電就是門檻跟綠電比例會不會提高這我們另外再討論最後一個問題比較重要的是剛好部長也在CPTPP我是促進會的會長我CPTPP非常重要明年度是澳洲擔任人事主席對不對我們在明年通過進入CPTPP的可能性到達"},{"start":926.567,"end":934.795,"text":"這個應該是... 新批他有這個要...這個跟會員國之間要有單一的接觸而且他要遵守他的高標準..."},{"start":947.568,"end":956.971,"text":"響鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時25分）謝謝院長，有請行政院卓院長、經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。"],["邱委員志偉：院長早。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：院長辛苦了，第一個問題請教你，就是關於醫療機構我們都凍漲，相關的醫事機構也跟我有很多的陳情，我第一時間也跟部長反映，針對其他的醫事機構目前電費凍漲的進度，部長，您了解嗎？還是院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長先答。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，醫事機構應一併納入電價凍漲方案，這個是確定的。"],["邱委員志偉：什麼時候開始實施呢？"],["郭部長智輝：院長已經有指示了……"],["邱委員志偉：立即實施？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會馬上來處理，最近因為……"],["邱委員志偉：比照醫療機構？"],["郭部長智輝：大家都待在立法院質詢，所以有比較……"],["邱委員志偉：是即刻凍漲還是有一個時間點？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，本來在規劃當中，經過電價審議委員會之後，我們是認為包括學校、醫院都應該由目的事業主管機關來做政策上的調整，但還是有一些其他的問題，比方說藥局，大的藥局、小的藥局又有不同，大藥局跟社區藥局也有不同，醫院、診所跟一些醫檢所也不一樣，這個部分電價審議委員會如果下次還有開會的時間，我們是建議它能夠再……"],["邱委員志偉：所以它凍漲是在下次電價審議委員會開會之後作成決議才會凍漲嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前是有部分已經……像社區醫院、社區診所。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望部長能夠擴大宣傳，到底哪些醫事機構是目前已經即刻凍漲，有哪些是下一個階段，在下一次電價審議委員會之後才會凍漲，這可能要讓大家知道一下。"],["郭部長智輝：我們在上個禮拜五得到院長的指示，我們就趕快要跟電價審議委員會他們報告，然後把這個東西納入，所以就有一些程序上面的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：所以凍漲是大方向，也是政策，沒有問題？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好。另外，2,000億，一年1,000億，兩年2,000億，由政府撥補台電，對不對？主要這2,000億是用在哪裡？我們看一下目前的，供電成本是3.95元；民生住宅用電凍漲，維持在每度2.77元，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對，2.77元。"],["邱委員志偉：大概政府吸收1.18元，吸收的經費是由2024年到2025年各編列1,000億來彌補民生住宅的凍漲缺口，這2,000億的主要目標是這樣，你的報告裡面是這樣寫的。"],["卓院長榮泰：撥補的預算經費不完全是這個部分，還有一部分是要針對韌性電網。"],["邱委員志偉：院長，你的報告是這樣寫。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["邱委員志偉：主要這2,000億是要針對凍漲的民生住宅用電部分，彌補這個缺口嘛！如果這2,000億的電價補貼預算沒有通過，台電該如何因應呢？是不是會反映到民生住宅用電？因為主要這2,000億是要針對民生住宅用電的缺口，因為凍漲嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：這說的是今年、明年各1,000億。"],["邱委員志偉：對啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：包括以前年度的也有1,500億。"],["邱委員志偉：我是針對你的報告來提問，國民黨的朱立倫主席說這2,000億的撥補預算他是堅決反對，我想國民黨團大概也不會支持，如果在這種狀況之下，這2,000億是你要針對民生住宅用電凍漲的缺口，如果這2,000億沒過，要怎麼辦？是不是反映到民生住宅用電？"],["卓院長榮泰：直接地說，就是台電的財務狀況跟我們現在所預估的又不一樣，它可能會更加的有問題。"],["邱委員志偉：那會不會影響民生住宅用電的電價呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：主要是撥補的政策不能夠落實，而台電的財務狀況又持續擴大，將來要再做如何的調整，電價審議委員會就會有其考量。"],["邱委員志偉：擴大如果到不可逆啦！真的，如果擴大到不可逆可能就破產了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很不希望這樣子做。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊！所以這2,000億你要讓社會大眾知道，這2,000億是針對凍漲所產生的成本缺口，如果這2,000億不過，民生用電可能會受到影響，如果民生用電沒有受到影響，那可能台電受到很大的衝擊，可能過了這個可逆點，它的財務狀況可能就沒有辦法再起死回生，搞不好就破產了，有可能耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們現在只有努力地希望相關的預算跟追加預算都能夠通過。"],["邱委員志偉：希望理性看待這個預算，這2,000億是為了民生住宅用電的缺口所去撥補的。另外，你的報告裡面針對橋接能源的規劃，2033年距離現在大概是將近10年，將累計淨增加17.86GW，這些機組有幾部燃氣機組？分布在哪些縣市？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是大潭、通霄、興達、臺中、大林跟協和，主要是這幾個。"],["邱委員志偉：就現有的電廠去增加機組嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["邱委員志偉：您說這個如果規劃上線，但也有可能不會規劃上線，這需要國人跟地方政府支持台電，有哪些地方政府不支持？在你的報告裡面有寫地方政府支持……"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然希望能夠得到地方政府的支持跟配合。"],["邱委員志偉：我們在現有的電廠裡面去增加燃氣機組，所謂的橋接就是低碳新型燃氣機組，就是快速起停的特性嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以在現有的電廠裡面來增設這個燃氣機組嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：地方政府應該也會樂觀其成，原本是燒煤炭，現在燒低碳的燃氣，應該是支持才對啊，為什麼你會覺得到2033年沒有辦法如期建置呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我想台電公司應該多跟地方政府還有地方的居民多溝通，這個部分我們會責成台電公司……"],["邱委員志偉：像我們的興達電廠，以前是燃煤……"],["郭部長智輝：或者是外部的民營電廠也有可能。"],["邱委員志偉：那麼剛剛院長所說的，大部分都是目前的台電電廠，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，主要。"],["邱委員志偉：17.86GW大部分是由現有的電廠裡面去擴充的嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在比較擔心的問題，我想就是剛才委員所講的，因為我們大部分會用低碳的天然氣，所以這個我們還是要有一些接氣的地方。"],["邱委員志偉：比如說三接、四接這些？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員志偉：當然，我們要全力去爭取地方政府的支持啊！"],["郭部長智輝：所以這個還要跟環境部和地方政府要有一些程序上面的過程。"],["邱委員志偉：我想我們很樂觀期待，但是一定要全力以赴啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你說這條線如果能夠規劃上線，就不會有缺電的問題，對不對？你們的報告是這樣寫的。"],["郭部長智輝：如果大家都支持我們台電，然後支持我們的綠電，我想臺灣的高科技要的就是這些綠電跟我們的電力。"],["邱委員志偉：我順便請教您，您說核電的問題，要滿足核安、解決核廢，核廢能夠處理及社會共識，在我看起來是比較屬於抽象的標準跟前提，要滿足這三項前提有沒有比較科學的，針對這三項前提的條件？只是滿足核安、核廢處理、社會共識？有比較科學的標準，比較標準的數字嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：在這裡面，我講的這三項是現在比較難的，而且我覺得最難的是社會的共識，現在社會上對於用核電或是不用核電，幾乎討論的空間是不多的。"],["邱委員志偉：那這個前提永遠沒辦法達成嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["邱委員志偉：永遠沒辦法達成，就沒有辦法再發展核電。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們現在有兩條路，一個就是對以後的新核能技術，我們開放。再來就是目前的核三廠問題，行政院必須依法行政，明年5月17號它就必須除役，現在核管法就是這麼規定，是不是有可能會變動，我完全不知道，因為我們現在是依法行政。"],["邱委員志偉：院長，我的看法不只是社會共識是高門檻，核廢處理也是高門檻。另外，核安問題誰說了算，這也是高門檻，這三個高門檻變成超高門檻，你要發展核電，這門檻非常高。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是未來新的核能技術，我們現在可能都還不知道會發展到什麼程度。"],["邱委員志偉：就目前的……"],["卓院長榮泰：各種的數據看起來，2030年可能是一個非常關鍵的年度，所以它是不是有長足的……剛剛這些疑慮或這些保證得到一個發展，我們現在也正在努力地觀察當中。"],["邱委員志偉：好，下一個問題請教，我們如何加速綠電的轉型，讓企業的採購環境能夠優化？當然，這是一個協會所提出的建議，我覺得這個建議可以提供給政府做參考，怎麼樣針對電證分離制度來降低企業採購的門檻，我想這個部長您大概是專家，這個我國是不是有可能採行？這部分可能要花多點時間討論。","第二個問題，在供應鏈成本上漲，離岸風電國產化的政策是不是有微調的可能性？這些該怎麼調整，可能也需要經濟部去了解。另外，我們如何加強授信風險的擔保，並檢討PPA餘電的回購機制，我想這個部長您是專家，但是很多人都不了解到底政府的政策方向在哪裡；另外，太陽光電土地取得困難，政府可以做一些怎麼樣的努力從中協助？這四項議題。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我想我們分短期跟長期來看，短期也就是2030年為止，RE100他們規定大概在2030年有第一個階段的目標，我們就是全力以赴，2030年的時候我們讓臺灣的綠電可以上升到30%以上，可以的話2032年朝40%再努力。那麼長遠來講，我們真正的目標就是2050年的時候要淨零減碳，所以我們目前就電力跟綠電這兩個命題來努力的話，現在透過深度節能可以馬上在既有的電力設施之下增加大概8%。"],["邱委員志偉：這四項議題只是提供給經濟部做參考，至於說怎麼樣去落實他們所提出的訴求，我想這個對綠電的轉型很重要。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：可能在委員會我們可以討論。剛剛你所提到深度節能203億，這個經費行政院好像還沒有明確的出處，這203億的經費從哪裡來？針對獎勵誘因及民間資源投入，差不多要157億；產業用戶落實節電16億，大概已經有在新增了，我想請教一下……"],["郭部長智輝：這個是今年編的預算。"],["邱委員志偉：157億要編在哪裡？這個深度節能的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：我們編在中小微企業裡面的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：還有設備的汰舊換新。"],["郭部長智輝：對，設備汰舊換新的部分，我們有修改了一個新創條例……"],["卓院長榮泰：產業創新條例。"],["邱委員志偉：那我可能最近就會排，因為我是召委嘛，我就儘快排，讓這部分能夠及時銜接到法律面……"],["郭部長智輝：我們真正的就是要把這個從國營的企業開始做起，然後來帶動建立一個模型。"],["邱委員志偉：這個方向是正確的，我是擔心你這203億沒有財源。"],["郭部長智輝：這個是另外的部分，屬於企業自給自發的領域，203億是補助中小微的，但是我們有更大的計畫，整個4年下來可能大概要花到上兆的預算，但是這個不在我們的公務預算裡面。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。下一個問題請教地熱，地熱不像風力有時間限制，地熱發電的效率比較高，臺灣有很好的條件，地熱資源豐富，但發展非常緩慢，我覺得應該要有好的誘因、好的政策，要去瞭解到底為什麼誘因不足？高探勘的風險、高的初期投資成本，這部分可以學習土耳其跟印尼的經驗，政府來主導嘛！讓初期的成本能夠降低，所以這部分我覺得我們有潛力，但潛力沒有發揮，這個很可惜，很可惜啦！我提供這個議題給部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：我們可能另外在委員會再來討論。","那麼用電大戶條款，這到底什麼時候會出爐？本來是兩年之內要提出，目前是5,000瓩以上是用電大戶，對吧？2023年能源署就應該要提出檢討報告，到現在還是沒有，那檢討報告什麼時候會出爐？門檻會不會提高？這個部分部長了解嗎？這會影響很大耶！用電大戶的標準門檻。"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們還是會滾動式的去調整。"],["邱委員志偉：不是，它依法必須要在2023年提出檢討報告，兩年提出嘛，一直延、一直延、一直延，你現在遲遲不出來，到底用電大戶目前你們的方向是怎麼樣？檢討報告是法令規定兩年要檢討一次，那你檢討報告什麼時候出爐？這很重要，門檻跟綠電的比例會不會調整，這到底有沒有方向？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，我們回去以後會針對您剛才所指示的這個題目，馬上去了解一下，再跟委員做報告。"],["邱委員志偉：今天能源署也在，我再找時間來討論，因為這個很重要，大家都在問到底會不會趕快出爐，然後門檻會不會提升、綠電比例會不會調整。"],["郭部長智輝：如果有這個規定，我們應該可以有……"],["卓院長榮泰：就是在再生能源發展條例當中，它有一個條文是有規定到，用電契約容量達到剛剛委員有寫到5,000瓩以上的電力用戶，它自己必須要有一些再生能源的發電設備……"],["邱委員志偉：對，我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：儲能設備或是購買一定的綠電。"],["邱委員志偉：就是門檻跟綠電比例會不會提高，這個我們另外再討論。最後一個問題比較重要，剛好部長也在，我是CPTPP促進會的會長，CPTPP非常重要，明年度是澳洲擔任輪值主席，對不對？我們在明年通過、進入CPTPP的可能性大不大？"],["郭部長智輝：這個應該是外交部……"],["卓院長榮泰：CPTPP它跟會員國之間要有單一的接觸……"],["邱委員志偉：我們努力了很久。"],["卓院長榮泰：而且要遵守它的高標準、高規格……"],["邱委員志偉：有，有，我們都達成了，但是你評估……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以是在單一跟其他的會員國當中，還要做許多的努力。"],["邱委員志偉：明年通過、進入的機率大不大？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部也會來努力。"],["邱委員志偉：還要努力？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及經濟部部長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請登記第8號徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}