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三"},{"start":652.794,"end":670.921,"text":"本席在這裡也要特別講剛剛有蠻多的委員好像特別講說韓國最近漲價當然是民進黨的委員比較多拿韓國漲價所以說呢這個何能是漲價原因這個是本席在這裡也要特別說明"},{"start":672.382,"end":684.54,"text":"韓國多份的官方報告指出長價的原因是因為國際能源價格導致其實本席在手上也看到我們從民國70年代用核電40%到50%"},{"start":687.364,"end":714.523,"text":"那80年代還有20%到30%90年代也還有十幾20%到100年以來呢就整個從17%降到5%所以這也是我們的電價為什麼一直漲一直漲過去民眾都很自豪政府也會說我們的電價是這個世界在世界來說我們是比較廉價的就是比較便宜的所以"},{"start":715.283,"end":739.682,"text":"本席在這裡要特別的請院長跟部長我們其實真的是可以考慮在安全的情況下可以考慮本席也聽到院長也回答說那你要問一問新北市民那本席也不禁問其實你火力發電你有問過中部地區的民眾嗎中部地區對火力發電造成的空氣污染他們是"},{"start":740.442,"end":741.983,"text":"本院內政委員會報告。（10月29日（。"},{"start":763.207,"end":775.776,"text":"應該4加2變成燃氣機組保留6部是不會承受常備性的發電的他只有6部的燃氣機組這樣就會降低他的公屋這是我們對台中市民心中存滿的感激跟歉意的做法"},{"start":776.038,"end":792.643,"text":"你不能只存滿感激跟建議有好的能源政策第一個不會用民脂民膏浪費那麼多的資源得到那麼少的效益尤其像目前我們政府的綠電其實很多剛剛也講到很多廠商他需要綠電"},{"start":794.103,"end":799.987,"text":"政府在大力推動再生能源的時候有沒有想過未來廢棄的離岸風機要如何處置?廢棄的離岸風機不會只有台灣有"},{"start":816.188,"end":832.872,"text":"全球都會有啦?不是,全球都會有,但是我們就要想那怎麼處置嘛?本席說未來,您可能還不知道,未來我們會一支葉片,它的重量就36噸,它的長度相當於高鐵3.26節的車廂,"},{"start":835.313,"end":844.828,"text":"在未來我們有900隻葉片要破碎掩埋他沒有辦法處理那面對這麼多900片的葉片3萬2400噸"},{"start":850.436,"end":869.431,"text":"都要變成臺灣的垃圾山同時同時還有光電光電的廢太陽能光電板我不知道我們政府有沒有任何的政策在未來有十萬光盾我們工研院已經發展出來可以處理光電的技術"},{"start":870.788,"end":871.008,"text":"主席"},{"start":896.146,"end":922.02,"text":"彈能源配比彈電價你你要整體看你的時間你你你這個到底我們的這種綠能或再生能源你要用多久的時間多少的成本你得到多少的效益時間效益成本加上環境永續那你不能選最不好的方案啊你要選最好的方案好那包圍那個最後最後最後本席"},{"start":923.24,"end":938.096,"text":"沒有時間了但是有關電價我們這個電價巨額虧損的政治責任我們現在沒有時間來爭論但是全民都知道填補虧損就只有政府撥補跟漲價兩個方案"},{"start":957.824,"end":964.991,"text":"響鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":629,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時41分）謝謝主席，本席有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：院長好。院長，您今天來報告能源配比以及電價政策，這個是向全國人民報告，全國人民其實就是行政院的頭家，您認同吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：全國人民沒有辦法全部來聆聽，所以我們有了代議制，而立法委員就是最高的民意代表，代表國人來聆聽。今天您的這份報告，第一個，本席覺得很奇怪，電子檔一定要您報告完之後，行政院團隊才能傳給我們各個辦公室……"],["卓院長榮泰：可能是口頭報告的部分啦！這個紙本印了在各位桌上都有的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，對，對，但感覺好像是一樣喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：口頭報告比較簡化一點。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個報告也是今天早上才拿到，這有一點慢。但是沒關係，本席今天看了一下，院長在整個報告裡面，我們一般在企業也是常常會有present，我想院長也知道，您覺得您的這份報告，如果是我們的大企業家像郭台銘董事長，他看了您的這份報告，你覺得他會給你打幾分？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個報告是能源配比跟電價政策，在電價裡面談到比較多一些數據；在能源配比上面，除了發電量之外，對我們的財務狀況比較少觸及。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您知道這裡面避重就輕……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是避重就輕，是報告的主體……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為我們在所有的企業，剛剛我聽到您跟牛煦庭委員在答詢的時候有講用企業家的精神，我不相信有任何一個老闆聽到的報告……一般認為，時間、效益、成本這三個一定要觸及，現在環境永續又是所有面向要考慮的。我看到您今天的這份報告，時間有提到我們到哪一年要做到什麼，效益提到部分，但避重就輕，成本完全沒提！包括您提到我們的能源配比，到今年2024燃煤多少、燃氣多少，特別強調再生能源達到10.5%，還有風力光電多少，但是您沒有告訴國人，我們過去到底花了多少民脂民膏、納稅錢，我們到底花了多少錢得到些許、些許的提升？缺乏財務報告，也就是成本您沒有告知……"],["卓院長榮泰：比較粗淺的算法，我們後面在電價政策裡面有提到，預估2024的電價成本每度是3.95元。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你那個電價成本已經是後面了，但是你到底投入了多少？本席特別在這裡再講第二點，您上任的時候也特別提到行政院團隊是AI行動，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：智慧團隊嘛，如果要進入AI的時代，我們知道今年年底開始，很多手機就進入AI手機，notebook（筆電）也進入AI，您知道進入AI時代的用電跟沒有進入AI時代差多少嗎？您知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在到2030年之間，從我們所需要的用電量來做分析，台電已經一次、再一次把需要的用電量算出來，他們認為需要的用電量為720萬瓩，而我們可能會有900萬瓩的供電量，所以認為在2030年之前的供電量是安全無虞的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：2030年，但是今年年底就進入AI時代了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：有算出來了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：關於那個算出來的，本席在這邊跟您講，如果現在的伺服器轉成AI伺服器，用電量馬上增加1.6倍，來不來得及？再來，你應該知道，現在民間的一般民眾常常上網google，我相信院長有時候查什麼事情也會google一下，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：經常。"],["徐委員欣瑩：用Google查詢跟ChatGPT這種AI查詢，差了10倍的用電量，所以本席在前面先提醒，也用了我5分鐘了，針對行政院團隊很多的預估，不要到出了問題才又一堆托詞，尤其現在你們一直說用電夠，但是其實民間好像常常反映電量不夠，常常跳電，有很多中小企業反映，我不知道院長您知道嗎？因為跳電，他們有很多機器燒掉，那些都要自己吸收啊！然後他們又不敢講。","本席接著要就這次你們提的能源配比還有電價政策來就教院長，蔡總統2016年上任之後，大力發展離岸風電，宣布成立風電國家隊，喊出1.2兆產值，2萬個工作機會，當時政府指示台電籌組離岸風電國家隊，當初很高調，也寄予厚望的政策，請問到現在有多少案子已經連網發電，從售電回收投資的？請簡答。"],["卓院長榮泰：離岸風電到現在總共的發電量，到2024年為止已經有2.7GW，到2026年還會倍增，2028年還要增加，我們逐年都有這個步驟。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，您手上有資料，本席也有。這跟當初預期進度相比是落後的，在時間效益成本來說，效益是一直落後的；還有當初有很多投入的案子，現在能夠真正連網發電的，要在2024（今）年完成的，大部分都沒有完成，進度不到50%，為什麼還有很多當初投入的案子沒有辦法真正進入售電階段，是不是因為離岸風電國產化的政策？是因為這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們都清楚凡事起頭難，所以第一階段、第二階段，到現在已經進行到第三階段的3-1、3-2，已經進到技術上可以掌控的，但過去累積下來的問題，我們現在要逐步解決，包括委員所提的國產化問題，我們跟部長、部裡面討論過好幾次，3-1、3-2、3-3如何……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在究竟要國產化還是市場化？部長先不要講你的，我現在就問你們接下來的政策是國產化還是市場化？"],["卓院長榮泰：重點答復就是在第三階段的3-1……"],["徐委員欣瑩：3-3？"],["卓院長榮泰：3-1不變，國產化不變。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔，3-1。"],["卓院長榮泰：3-2原則上也不變，但是如果真的其中工期、品質等出現問題，我們可以專案來討論，但3-3主要的功能是在培植我們國內的工程團隊能夠有國際競爭力，希望他們能夠向海外發展，所以3-3現在朝這個方向在進行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：聽起來3-3期開放就是國產化政策即將告終的意思嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們是要……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不要講太長，我的時間不多。"],["郭部長智輝：我的意思是，國產化如果只是看國內的市場，那就太小了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，本席了解。本席請教，過去那些國內投入數十億甚至百億的廠商，他們可以承受這樣的衝擊嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他們沒有問題啊！他們必須要有競爭力啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以等於是這個政策反覆……"],["郭部長智輝：不是反覆！我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們行政團隊認為沒有問題？"],["郭部長智輝：我們政策是向上走的，讓國內國產化的廠商具有國際競爭力，上一次台積電劉董事長回臺灣時也是這麼說的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席有聽到，部長你說溫室的花朵已經一段時間了……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們還是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：溫室的花朵能夠保護多久呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府的立場是非常感謝參與國產化的這些業者，沒有他們的參與，我們前兩個階段也不可能這樣的建載完成，或是陸續再開發，所以未來政府不會放著這些廠商沒有任何發展的去向，所以會照剛剛部長所說的往國外發展，培養他們的國際競爭力，政府可以從各種政策實質面來做協助。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然！當然！本席也希望，就是能夠如院長跟部長所講的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，這是我們現在的作法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：既然提到離岸風電，我們投入了大量的，不管是國家隊或是民間的資源，結果我們到今年為止，包含院長的報告裡面也提到，我們離岸風電占整個供電量就是1.83%，但是投入了那麼那麼多的資源，那也是為什麼有這麼多的委員都建議說，為什麼不用核能？當然使用核能的前提是要安全，本席也認同，剛剛也講了，它是不是綠電，國際是有爭議的，但它是潔淨的能源。本席在這裡也要特別講，剛剛有滿多的委員，當然是民進黨委員比較多，他們提到韓國最近漲價了，所以說核能是漲價原因，本席在這裡也要特別說明，韓國多份的官方報告指出，漲價的原因是因為國際能源價格導致。據本席手上的資料顯示，我們從民國七○年代，使用核電的比例是40%到50%；八○年代還有20%到30%；九○年代也還有十幾二十%；到100年以來，整個從17%降到5%，這也是我們電價為什麼一直漲一直漲。","過去民眾都很自豪，政府也會說我們的電價就世界來說，我們是比較廉價的，也就是比較便宜的，所以本席在這裡要特別的請院長跟部長，我們其實真的是可以考慮，在安全的情況下可以考慮，本席聽到院長也回答說：你要問一問新北市民。本席也不禁要問，其實你的火力發電有問過中部地區的民眾嗎？中部地區對火力發電造成的空氣污染，他們是唉唉叫！而且他們急想擺脫卻擺脫不了，所以我們看到今天的報告，我們的燃煤占了40%，那你也要問一問中部地區的民眾他們做何感想啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，跟委員報告，我們臺中有最大的火力發電廠10部機組，我們現在會把其中的4部，應該是4加2變成燃氣機組，保留6部是不會做常備性的發電，它只有6部的燃氣機組，這樣就會降低它的空污，這是我們對臺中市民心中充滿了感激跟歉意的作法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不能只充滿感激跟歉意，有好的能源政策，第一個，不會用民脂民膏，浪費那麼多的資源，得到那麼少的效益，尤其像目前我們政府的綠電，剛剛也講到，很多廠商需要綠電，但它卻拿不到。","所以本席接著要說，剛剛講到了離岸風電，政府在大力推動再生能源的時候，有沒有想過未來廢棄的離岸風機要如何處置？請簡答，還沒想？"],["郭部長智輝：廢棄的離岸風機不會只有臺灣有啦！全球都會有啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：全球都會有，但是我們要想屆時該如何處置，本席要說的是，未來可能你還不知道，而一支葉片的重量有36噸；它的長度相當於高鐵3.26節車廂。未來我們有900支葉片要破碎掩埋，它沒有辦法處理，面對多達九百片的葉片、重3萬2,400噸，都會變成臺灣的垃圾山！同時還有光電，也就是廢太陽能光電板，我不知道我們政府有沒有任何的政策……"],["郭部長智輝：我們工研院已經有處理的技術了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：未來有十萬公噸……"],["郭部長智輝：工研院已經發展出可以處理光電板的技術。"],["徐委員欣瑩：已經發展了？可以運用了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有一些可以回收了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：開始運用了嗎？目前在所有文獻中都還沒看到……"],["郭部長智輝：因為現在還在運轉，所以沒有淘汰，還不到20年。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望能夠一起來為我們的環境永續好好思考，所以整體來說，本席今天主要是講：要談能源配比，談電價，就要整體的時間，到底綠能或再生能源要用多久的時間、多少的成本、得到多少的效益？時間、效益、成本，加上環境永續，所以不能選最不好的方案，要選最好的方案。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那是循環經濟……"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，本席沒有時間了！有關電價巨額虧損的政治責任，我們現在沒有時間爭論，但全民都知道，填補虧損就只有政府撥補跟漲價兩個方案，這兩個方案都是民眾的民脂民膏，所以漲價讓民眾很不得已，也很無奈；至於撥補也不能無限制撥補。我們希望行政院能源配比政策三思啊，慎思啊，拜託、拜託！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長、各位部會首長備詢。謝謝。","接下來請登記第9號何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}