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三"},{"start":163.291,"end":164.475,"text":"院長,您怎麼看?"},{"start":166.65,"end":193.727,"text":"報告委員我們當然不會沒有看到國際的情勢但現在對台灣來講兩條路線傳統的核電我們現在在核管法的法定規定底下明年核三長二號機必須要除役這是我們法律的規定我們現在是依法而行未來的新核能技術現在我們沒有辦法去預測到它發展的速度跟方向但是我們採取絕對開放的態度也願意學習也願意討論"},{"start":196.175,"end":225.348,"text":"那個院長您日前接受外媒的訪問提及台灣對採用新核能科技的態度規常的開放是的那本席就此來請教對於新核能的科技目前大部分討論是小型模組的這個模組化的這個反應爐SMR那政府花了多少預算與努力來因應來做準備呢"},{"start":226.318,"end":250.195,"text":"我們現在是沒有直接在這個小SMR這個工程上面核電廠上面來做比較多的研究但是我們跟世界的先進的技術都是有連結跟討論的不只這些我們還有更未來的核融核等等我們還有現在2030年也許還有一個更革命性的產品會出現這個我們都持續的保持"},{"start":251.696,"end":273.932,"text":"本席我又請我助理來查詢政府研究報告找到一篇關於這個小型模組化反應爐的研究預算是60萬元那請問卓院長2025年政府對於小型模組化反應爐會投入多少的預算來研究呢"},{"start":274.672,"end":284.942,"text":"據我所知他所謂小型也不是真的很小型放在桌上的也不是他是好像也是一個好像大巨蛋那麼大類似啦而且他也會產生核廢料"},{"start":286.397,"end":307.39,"text":"也是會核廢料,所以說你們目前沒有考慮是不是?不是,我們還是在研究它的帶來會不會有新的一些發展的方向,郭部長應該更清楚。跟委員報告,SMR是這樣,SMR因為我們現在比較小隻,所以比較容易設置,但是它還是會產生核廢料。"},{"start":307.79,"end":308.871,"text":"三個問題如果我們可以確認安全的"},{"start":330.504,"end":331.345,"text":"本院內政委員會報告"},{"start":346.581,"end":346.701,"text":"臺灣國防部長"},{"start":372.842,"end":399.855,"text":"民進黨政府執政後推動匯合佳餘也讓核電人才培育浮現危機。現階段核電與未來20、30年的技術不同,本席認為政府有必要持續投入核電研究,因為新世代思維改變,未來可能就需要用核電,國內如果不繼續發展核電"},{"start":401.536,"end":424.789,"text":"何能的人才恐怕會大量的斷層你有什麼看法?這個很佩服也支持委員這樣的建議跟看法那我們日前也做過這樣的表示現在河山廠的這些有經驗的這些工程人員他們不僅要處理河後端的很多處理他們也要去接續研究"},{"start":425.469,"end":425.509,"text":"主席"},{"start":446.7,"end":466.316,"text":"讓民眾透過能源模擬器來瞭解減碳與電價之間的關聯。那過了10年時空環境有所更迭那臺灣歷經新冠疫情、烏鴉戰爭的影響導致購電的成本大幅的增加那電價三年漲了4次"},{"start":467.597,"end":477.905,"text":"那本席我是希望說經濟部重啟臺灣2050能源供需情境的模擬器把這些資訊攤在陽光下讓大家來選擇如何務實達到2050淨民排碳"},{"start":488.376,"end":500.873,"text":"報告委員那個模擬器10年前我也用過但是10年前沒有把這個價格因素放進去那未來我們也看過MIT有類似這樣的工具那我們會來參佐但是價格還是最重要最麻煩的一個點"},{"start":501.553,"end":503.334,"text":"市長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。"},{"start":519.386,"end":542.628,"text":"以代價、理性思考各種人員選擇下的利弊得失以這樣的工序作為共同討論的基礎來嘗試去尋找適合的人員發展路徑我請問卓院長何時能夠重啟臺灣2050年人員供需情境的模擬器"},{"start":545.718,"end":563.152,"text":"報告委員那個我們國家氣候變遷對策委員會有一個決議我們行政院也在研議當中我們會有一個平台那跟那個委員提到的非常的像那我們會來研議可能要到我目前預計是要大概三個月的時間因為裡面的設計還有討論還要多方的意見"},{"start":563.812,"end":577.365,"text":"因為不一樣的支持者對於這個概念平台長什麼樣子可能不大一樣所以我們會努力能夠把這個平台的樣子能夠做出來我是希望說這個要積極不要因為我們今天是針對問題來探討怎麼去解決問題"},{"start":581.788,"end":605.357,"text":"經濟部對外表示說深度節能推動計畫目標累計4年113到116可能可節省206億度206億度的電那今年8月行政院這個第3915次院會深度節能的推動計畫提到大用戶節電1%的目標部長是不是是"},{"start":609.298,"end":623.347,"text":"那,過了兩個月經濟部預告修法,要求契約用電容量超過一萬千瓦的用電大戶,年節電力要提高到1.5%,有沒有這檔事?"},{"start":623.347,"end":623.468,"text":"是的"},{"start":626.53,"end":645.086,"text":"那請問卓院長深度節能的計畫針對用電大戶要求節能的目標已經有所不同是否代表深度節能目標206億度應該再往上調整因為你既然本來1%現在調到1.5%那你一樣維持206億度"},{"start":651.451,"end":651.471,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":668.237,"end":669.658,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":691.278,"end":717.609,"text":"那你們有沒有針對儲能這部分有去做各方面的研究因為很多電你沒有使用然後你沒有儲能它就消失掉了那這不是浪費嗎那你今天要是有儲能的設施節能減碳我們的EXCO計畫裡面就是有儲能對啊但是目前來講經濟部到底有沒有在推"},{"start":718.24,"end":742.948,"text":"有,我們現在就是開始先把那個模型建立起來,就是譬如說喀喀要怎麼做,公司要怎麼做。其實我有去參觀過人家的廠,而且國內有在生產,結果它是什麼,它是只要家戶也可以用,你大樓裡面甚至於它就可以替代發電機,因為講實在話,晚上你離風時間,它就把它儲能,"},{"start":748.069,"end":774.78,"text":"他白天就可以用因為白天是尖峰時間晚上是離峰時間其實這些本來你們就應該要積極的推我們現在都在推這個這個所謂智慧化的管理對那我們是從照明從空調跟動力這三個方向去整合所以這個然後那個電的部分因為晚上離峰的時候"},{"start":775.16,"end":793.665,"text":"對阿 電價比較便宜 除能阿 對阿白天可以用除能器使用在白天晚上除能 白天用電其實它也不會浪費掉照理講經濟部跟行政院這邊應該要去"},{"start":795.866,"end":815.143,"text":"有這部分各位委員報告這部分我們都在進行我們現在甚至於連廠商我們都要管理哪一些廠商是我們建議的他確實是透過我們標準局同意的東西我想這個我們一步步在建議因為我們的廠商甚至於在國外都有建廠我相信你們應該要多去了解"},{"start":815.743,"end":828.718,"text":"是對不對你去了解那確實能夠達到那個就是不要讓他浪費掉那你能夠除人然後又能夠使用而且來來調控這個才是正道"},{"start":829.495,"end":846.81,"text":"這部分我們都在進行中。好不好,郭部長最後用一點心,因為深度節能的目標提到要設置儲能設備移轉尖峰用電,但最近儲能廠新建屢屢受到周邊的民眾的反對,擔心儲能電廠電池過熱的故障引發火勢,"},{"start":852.054,"end":878.45,"text":"將難以控制以電動車特斯拉為例一旦起火研究指出需要75噸的水才能夠控制火勢假設一定的規模除能電廠失火需要耗費多少的水資源政府是都有做好研究跟準備這個部分我們都會加強管理因為目前我們針對主要有這個事件產生的廠商"},{"start":879.511,"end":897.71,"text":"不管它是國內製造的也好,或者是進口的這些除能設備也好,我們都會深入的去了解,到底這些磁芯,這些到底是哪邊製造的。對啦,那個...我們不可以讓它繼續發生這個...對啦,那個卓院長、郭部長,"},{"start":898.371,"end":898.631,"text":"主席"},{"start":919.071,"end":923.378,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":753,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（17時4分）謝謝韓院長，是不是請卓院長跟郭部長？"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：院長你好。未來可能5到10年AI產業將迅速發展，AI產業整個科技創新製程需要龐大用電，產業界包括美國商會其實都十分擔憂，超過七成美國商會的成員對於綠色能源的供應，講實在話，他們都有擔憂，各界懷疑在現行能源政策下，是否能夠因應未來的整個發展。院長，你的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我當然跟各位委員一樣，我們都會關注社會上各方對我們現在能源政策提出來的建議、質疑，或是任何新的方法，但是我們會在當中找一個目前我們正在推動的，我們認為可以執行的方式極力地推。這個過程當中遇到任何的困難，希望大家共同解決，目前我們是朝發展多元綠能、深度節能、先進儲能以及強韌電網這方面來走。"],["林委員德福：我知道。院長，為了因應2050年淨零排碳的目標，世界各國的趨勢就是擁抱乾淨的能源，包括核電在內。國際原子能總署強調，世界需要核電來減少整個碳排放；此外美國和二十幾個國家也共同發表核能宣言，共同努力於2050年將全球核能容量增加為三倍的目標。美國、日本、韓國都大舉發展核電，而賴政府卻不願意調整非核家園的能源政策。本席認為，2050年減碳目標將難以達成，天然氣發電比例過高，電價容易受到國際情勢影響，更要面對缺電的風險。院長，你怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們當然不會沒有看到國際的情勢，但現在對臺灣來講，兩條路線，傳統的核電，我們現在在核管法的法令規定底下，明年核三廠2號機必須除役。這是我們法律的規定，我們現在是依法而行……"],["林委員德福：這個……"],["卓院長榮泰：未來的新核能技術，現在我們沒有辦法預測到它發展的速度和方向，但是我們採取絕對開放的態度，願意學習，也願意討論。"],["林委員德福：院長，您日前接受外媒訪問，提及臺灣對採用新核能科技的態度非常開放。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["林委員德福：那本席就此來請教，對於新核能科技，目前大部分是討論小型模組化反應爐（SMR），政府花了多少預算與努力來因應、準備？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在沒有直接在SMR這個工程上面、核電廠上面做比較多的研究……"],["林委員德福：都沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：但我們跟世界先進的技術都是有連結和討論的。不只這些，我們還有更未來的核融合等等，2030年也許還有一個更革命性的產品會出現，這個我們都持續保持。"],["林委員德福：院長，我有請我助理查詢政府的研究報告，找到一篇關於小型模組化反應爐（SMR）的研究，預算是60萬元。請問卓院長，2050年政府對於小型模組化反應爐（SMR）會投入多少預算來研究，你有沒有這種規劃？"],["卓院長榮泰：據我所知，所謂小型，它也不是真的很小型、放在桌上，也不是，也是好像一個大巨蛋那麼大、類似……"],["林委員德福：那你們有沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：而且它也會產生核廢料。"],["林委員德福：也是會有核廢料？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，也會產生核廢料。"],["林委員德福：所以你們目前沒有考慮，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是在研究會不會有新的一些發展方向，郭部長應該更清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，SMR是這樣子，SMR比較小台，所以比較容易設置，但它還是會產生核廢料，甚至有的研究者說它產生的核廢料要處理的時間更久。所以我們還在觀察，因為對我們來講，我們的三個前提是最重要的，第一個就是安全，第二個是核廢料可以處理，第三個當然是全民共識，這個大家大概都差不多。所以這兩個問題如果我們可以確認是安全的，確認核廢料處理沒有問題，這也解開了現在核管法的規範，我們這個內閣當然整個都在重視而且注視這個命題。","我們很清楚，在這個AI的時代，電力等於國力，所以我們不會視而不見，也不會不去討論它，我們現在把我們的人員都留置。雖然依照核管法，現在核三廠1號機停下來了，但是我們讓人員繼續留駐，請他們觀察……"],["林委員德福：郭部長、卓院長，民進黨執政後推動非核家園，也讓核電人才的培育浮現了危機，現階段的核電技術與未來20年、30年會有所不同，本席認為政府有必要持續投入核電的研究，因為新世代的思維改變，未來可能就需要使用核電，國內如果不繼續發展核電，核能的人才恐怕會大量斷層，你對此有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：很佩服也支持委員這樣的建議跟看法，我們日前也做過這樣的表示，現在核三廠這些有經驗的工程人員不僅要做很多核後端的處理工作，也要接續研究可能的先進技術，甚至未來國內各種變化的可能，都要有因應的人力，所以我們全力要把他們留置下來。"],["林委員德福：對，一定要讓這些人才繼續留置。","過去在2014、2015的時候，經濟部有推動能源模擬器，參考英國的做法，讓民眾透過能源模擬器來瞭解減碳與電價之間的關聯。過了10年，時空環境有所更迭，臺灣歷經新冠疫情、烏俄戰爭的影響，導致購電成本大幅增加，電價3年漲了4次，本席是希望經濟部重啟臺灣2050能源供需情境的模擬器，把這些資訊攤在陽光下，讓大家來選擇如何務實達到2050淨零碳排。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個模擬器10年前我也用過，但是10年前沒有把價格因素放進去，我們也看過MIT有類似這樣的工具，我們會來參酌，但是價格還是最重要、最麻煩的一個點。"],["林委員德福：我是認為應該要繼續，然後發表讓外界瞭解。好不好？讓外界清楚知道發電的成本差異，各種發電方式的碳排放量，來提供可能需面臨的風險與代價，理性思考各種能源選擇下的利弊得失。以這樣的工具做為共同討論的基礎，嘗試尋找適合的能源發展路徑。請問卓院長，何時能夠重啟臺灣2050能源供需情境的模擬器呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：請彭部長答復。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，國家氣候變遷對策委員會有一個決議，行政院也在研議當中，我們會有一個平臺，跟委員提到的非常的像。我們會來研議，目前預計大概要3個月的時間，裡面的設計和討論還要多方的意見，因為不一樣的支持者對於這個概念、平臺長什麼樣子的看法可能不大一樣，所以我們會努力把這個平臺的樣子做出來。"],["林委員德福：我是希望這個要積極啦！因為我們今天是針對問題來探討，怎麼去解決問題。","經濟部對外表示，深度節能推動計畫目標累計4年（113年到116年）可節省206億度的電，今年8月行政院第3915次院會有關深度節能推動計畫提到大用戶節電1%的目標，部長，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員德福：過了兩個月，經濟部預告修法要求契約用電容量超過1萬瓩的用電大戶，年節電率要提高到1.5%，有沒有這檔事？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["林委員德福：那請問卓院長深度節能的計畫，針對用電大戶要求節能的目標已經有所不同，是否代表深度節能目標206億度應該再往上調整，因為既然本來是1%，現在調到1.5%，你一樣維持206億度，是不是應該要調整？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是我們要整體的透過深度節能，然後由公司，大概我們會幫助中小微的企業，所以一開始沒有這麼大的量出來，我們現在是透過這個深度節能，我們希望4年以後能夠增加出來，大概有3.5GW，這是努力的目標，所以我們會請大的公司提升它自主減碳的比例，但是對電的部分，節能減碳是我們最重要的一個目標。"],["林委員德福：你們有沒有針對儲能這部分去做各方面的研究？因為很多電沒有使用、沒有儲能，它就消失掉了。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["林委員德福：那這不是浪費嗎？你今天要是有儲能的設施，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：節能減碳，我們的ESCO計畫裡面就是有儲能。"],["林委員德福：對啊！但是以目前來講，經濟部到底有沒有在推？"],["郭部長智輝：有，我們現在就是開始先把那個模型建立起來，譬如學校要怎麼做、公司要怎麼做……"],["林委員德福：其實我有去參觀過人家的廠，而且國內有在生產，結果它是什麼，它是家戶也可以用，大樓裡面甚至於它就可以替代發電機啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員德福：因為講實在話，晚上離峰時間就把它儲能，白天就可以用，因為白天是尖峰時間，晚上是離峰時間，其實這些本來你們就應該要積極的推。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在都在推這個，所謂智慧化的管理，我們是從照明、空調跟動力這三個方向去整合。而電的部分，因為晚上離峰的時候，電價比較便宜……"],["林委員德福：對啊！儲能啊！"],["郭部長智輝：然後白天，這個電4點以後……"],["林委員德福：我跟你講，白天可以用儲能器，使用在白天，晚上儲能，白天用電，其實它也不會浪費掉。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員德福：照理講，經濟部跟行政院這邊應該要很用心的來經營。"],["郭部長智輝：有，跟委員報告，這部分我們都在進行，我們現在甚至於連廠商，我們都要管理，哪一些廠商是我們建議的，它確實是透過我們標準局同意的東西，我想這些我們都一步步在建立。"],["林委員德福：因為我們的廠商甚至於在國外都有建廠，我相信你們應該要多去了解，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員德福：你去了解，確實能夠達到不讓它浪費掉，你能夠儲能，然後又能夠使用，而且來調控，這才是正道啊！"],["郭部長智輝：這部分我們都在進行中。"],["林委員德福：好不好？郭部長，這個要用一點心。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["林委員德福：因為深度節能的目標提到要設置儲能設備，移轉尖峰用電，但最近儲能廠興建屢屢受到周邊民眾的反對，擔心儲能電廠電池過熱故障，引發火勢將難以控制。以電動車特斯拉為例，研究指出，一旦起火需要75噸的水才能夠控制火勢，假設一定規模的儲能電廠失火，需要耗費多少的水資源，政府是否都有做好研究跟準備，有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分，我們都會加強管理，因為目前我們針對只要有這個事件產生的廠商，不管它是國內製造的也好，或者是進口的這些儲能設備也好，我們都會深入地去了解這些池芯到底是哪邊製造的。"],["林委員德福：對啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我們不能讓它再繼續發生這種事。"],["林委員德福：對啦！卓院長、郭部長，其實目前整個儲能設備設置要是有遇到抗爭阻礙，你們認為應該要怎麼樣進行跨部會的合作，能夠讓這些問題迎刃而解？我認為儲能是很重要，你今天有儲能，它可以調控，不會說電沒有用，結果就這樣浪費掉了，輸掉就是浪費掉了……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以在二次能源轉型過程當中，深度節能跟先進儲能都是四項當中兩項非常重要的項目，我們會全力地推動。"],["林委員德福：好，我希望能有積極的作為，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。作以下之決定：一、將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院，請就未答復部分予以書面答復；二、已提出之書面質詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。","報告院會，現在我們繼續處理復議案共兩案，依先後順序處理。","請議事人員宣讀第一案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}