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我就是要跟您 剛剛我的報告 其實還有部分要補足 就是 組長的統計方式跟我們不一樣 他詢問的問題 他是問說 你現在缺什麼 你現在是否有 缺人 那麼我們問的是說 你過去6個月真的都找不到人"},{"start":130.632,"end":151.438,"text":"就是這個兩個問題是不一樣的所以主總的問法他一定會呈現這樣都變成一國兩制因為我們都要了解缺工問題那這個數字差很大就算方法學不太一致但是這個數字差很大就是說差了三倍三四倍左右那我們都會擔心說勞動部有沒有在美化這個數字"},{"start":153.238,"end":168.24,"text":"所以缺工的問題可能會比我認為可能會比勞動部所想的還嚴重就用你們的方法去瞭解市委員我們其實並不是說美化數字而是說要精準掌握因為有的時候 那就要跟主計總署討論一下"},{"start":169.582,"end":173.586,"text":"對,我們其實也是想要跟組長來會商這個調查方法的問題謝謝部長那我們看一下那個缺工的理由部長你自己曾經說過缺工當然不等於低薪這基本上我可以理解因為缺工原因太多了"},{"start":185.438,"end":212.717,"text":"但是我們必須承認第一星的行業一定缺工因為前次有這個執行事由委員詢問部長說您認為第一星的標準是什麼那你回答了一個31K嘛這個大家現在都記得了那我們來看看右邊右邊這個數字就是現在五大缺工行業的薪資除了醫療服務業它的中位數是42000是12K稍微好一些但是批發零售業薪資中位數是37351只比那個整全體的行業的那個中位數多11塊錢"},{"start":214.258,"end":214.458,"text":"﹚陳昭姿﹚"},{"start":231.693,"end":239.463,"text":"是的,我的意思是說缺工不能等於低薪啦,我反對就是說,因為這個東西﹖還有很多其他因素我了解,但是低薪確實是一個問題,因為過去我在新聞上看到有一些產業他們會說我們寄出高薪啦,但是找不到人,所以這個說法我們"},{"start":250.095,"end":252.496,"text":"主總的調查也反映國人為什麼找不到工作是待遇太低"},{"start":270.646,"end":271.566,"text":"對,缺工的對策之一是希望薪資提高"},{"start":298.78,"end":319.155,"text":"然後又發國人出來工作的意願就是說你們對於缺工的這個行業有一所謂就業獎勵計畫那主要是鼓勵失業者盡量能夠到缺工的那個行業裡面去求職這個是一個最好的狀況那目前對於製造業、營建工程業住宿餐飲業甚至醫療服務業看起來都有這個獎勵可是請部長看這個數字"},{"start":322.017,"end":341.988,"text":"目前看起來效果有限啊,為什麼我們這樣講呢?尤其製造業跟醫療這個社會服務業,你看你越讓他急,他都嚴重了,他數字越來越嚴重了,就是他的缺工數是一直在增加的,所以這個就業獎勵計畫那個效果沒有呈現,還在惡化,所以是不是只靠補助?"},{"start":343.038,"end":365.344,"text":"有用嗎?是不是該去調查我認為可以調查年輕人他就業他找工作的時候他在意的點是什麼?除了薪水那是不是還有生活品質休假天數啦時數啦或是職場環境等等是不是勞動部要從比較多方面的方向去著手?你看越補助就越民眾啊數字越難看啊"},{"start":366.664,"end":386.236,"text":"不過委員就是這個就業獎勵像莊高麟在跟婦女方面是非常有幫助欸對那麼可能青年方面的績效比較小這確實這我們來檢討好嗎好如果說有一些世俗群是有幫忙的那還是要再做檢討一種的數字看起來就是傻逼"},{"start":387.236,"end":404.092,"text":"沒有用啊﹖撒幣沒看到效果那我 他們部長在反映一件事情之前許部長的時候我也跟他提過這樣的事情成大醫院曾經多次發生這個壓榨護理師強迫他們加班拒絕加班的護理師就被調動職位有一位迄今還在冷凍庫"},{"start":406.031,"end":419.479,"text":"當他們向勞工局反映的時候又變成黑名單囉這個新聞好多次了我最近又收到申請成大護理師向我反映那他們要上系統去填寫加班經費的時候系統會顯示經費不足然後直接鎖起來連申請加班都沒辦法你覺得這樣合情合理嗎我請我署長當然不合理當然不合理這是成功大學副社醫院欸"},{"start":435.188,"end":441.397,"text":"啊成功大學負責院他已經進入前五大收入最高的醫院了大概一年有17多億的營養院他們這樣對待護理師嗎"},{"start":444.894,"end":467.691,"text":"我要再談兩點,等下請勞動部說清楚每次護理師鼓起勇氣向臺南勞工局檢舉的時候勞檢的前幾天突然這個系統又修復了又可以上去填加班費根據勞動檢查法基本上勞檢是不能夠事先通知的但是這樣做法好像已經不止一次了所以我們就會懷疑是不是內神通外鬼"},{"start":468.511,"end":491.547,"text":"是不是說那個台南勞工局他就事先通知院方說好我們現在去勞檢了所以你所有系統都要恢復正常這樣子的做法這個已經好多次了這個我們有檢查處分過台南市勞工局你檢查處分你這個處分是地方地方衛生局處分嗎但是你們要去看處分罰錢多少錢罰錢多少錢好署長請說你罰多少錢"},{"start":497.535,"end":516.36,"text":"跟委員報告陳昭姿醫院確實是臺灣市政府勞工局的首要對象之一因為他們最近幾年的勞資爭議跟申訴案就是一直都有所以我們對檢查當然一定是不會通知檢查第一個你一定要守住然後申訴案的話我們會依照你為什麼罰兩萬塊呢我想你在這邊的年資比何部長還深嘛你應該了解罰兩萬塊像話嗎一年有十多億的"},{"start":526.023,"end":526.603,"text":"陳昭姿"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":82,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時10分）謝謝主席，有請何部長。"],["主席：有請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。昨天商總會邀請勞動部討論缺工議題，不知道部長在那個會議當中有什麼心得嗎？也是談缺工問題。"],["何部長佩珊：是是是，對，當然其實昨天出席的公會非常踴躍，在服務業的範圍裡面，大概各行各業公會都有出席，所以他們反映的問題相當多元，其實我想也符合我們今天的統計調查……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我的意思就是說，我知道在資方他們……因為這個是大老闆們，資方會有一些觀點，我也希望部長記得要跟基層的員工多開會……"],["何部長佩珊：當然，我昨天有跟他們強調……"],["陳委員昭姿：去了解從他們角度的觀點。部長，主計總處對全臺灣的工作職缺做了調查，根據目前最新的統計，看左邊這個紅框框就有24萬個工作職缺，最缺的前五名跟您剛剛的報告方向大概一致，工業部門的製造業跟營建工程業是最多的，然後服務部門是批發零售業還有住宿餐飲跟醫療保健。勞動部本身也有一個缺工調查，我們都拿前五缺工最嚴重的部分來做個比對，但是差很大耶！部長，你看，主計總處的數字是17萬3，就是我們指的缺工五大行業裡面是17萬個，但是貴部的只有4萬9,700。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我就是要跟您……剛剛我的報告其實還有一部分要補足，就是主總的統計方式跟我們不一樣，它詢問的問題是你現在是否有缺人？"],["陳委員昭姿：那勞動部呢？"],["何部長佩珊：那麼我們問的是，你過去6個月真的都找不到人，就是這兩個問題是不一樣的，所以主總的問法一定會呈現比較……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這樣會變成一國兩制，因為我們都要了解缺工問題，這個數字差很大，就算方法學不太一致，但是這個數字差很大，差了三、四倍左右，那我們就會擔心勞動部有沒有在美化這個數值，所以缺工的問題我認為可能會比勞動部所想的還嚴重，就是用你們的方法去了解。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們其實並不是美化數字，而是要精準掌握，因為有的時候……"],["陳委員昭姿：那就要跟主計總處討論一下，因為他們的數字也都是官方的數字，要溝通一下。"],["何部長佩珊：我們其實也是想要跟主總會商調查方法的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長。我們看一下缺工的理由，部長，你自己曾經說過缺工當然不等於低薪。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：這基本上我可以理解，因為缺工原因太多了，但是我們必須承認低薪的行業一定缺工，因為前次質詢有委員詢問部長您認為低薪的標準是什麼，您回答31K嘛！這個大家現在都記得了，我們來看看右邊這個數字，就是現在五大缺工行業的薪資，除了醫療服務業，它的中位數是四萬二、42K，稍微好一些，但是批發零售業薪資中位數是3萬7,351，只比全體行業的中位數多11塊錢，然後營建工程業、製造業很低，那住宿及餐飲業是最慘的，是30K。所以完全符合勞動部認定的低薪族群，因此我個人認為缺工不等於低薪，但是低薪從事實上來看是等於缺工啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！我的意思說缺工不能等於低薪，我反對就是說因為……"],["陳委員昭姿：還有很多其他因素我了解。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是低薪確實是一個問題，因為過去我在新聞上看到有一些產業他們會說他們祭出高薪，但是找不到人，所以這個說法我們會有所保留。"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：他們祭出高薪還找不到人，是嗎？這個說法確實要存疑，因為根據政府統計結果一致指出低薪的缺工情形最嚴重。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，主總的調查也反映國人為什麼找不到工作，是待遇太低，大概占60%的因素，所以這個確實是符合普遍認知，就是低薪會造成缺工。可是缺工是因為雇主不願意提高薪水，所以大家就不願意去從事，這是一個惡性循環，所以就是說我們不要……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個還是要有對策啊！勞動部要有對策。"],["何部長佩珊：對，缺工的對策之一是希望薪資提高，然後誘發國人出來工作的意願。"],["陳委員昭姿：OK，謝謝部長。就是說你們對於缺工的行業有所謂就業獎勵計畫，主要是鼓勵失業者儘量能夠到缺工的行業裡面去求職，這個是最好的狀況。目前對於製造業、營建工程業、住宿及餐飲業，甚至醫療服務業，看起來都有這個獎勵，可是請部長看這個數字，目前看起來效果有限。為什麼我會這樣講呢？尤其製造業跟醫療社會服務業，你看你越給他錢，他越嚴重耶！他數字越來越嚴重，就是他的缺工數是一直在增加的喔！所以這個就業獎勵計畫效果沒有呈現，還在惡化，所以只靠補助有用嗎？是不是該去調查？我認為可以調查年輕人找工作的時候在意的點是什麼，除了薪水，是不是還有生活品質、休假天數、時數，或是職場環境等等，是不是勞動部要從多方面的方向去著手？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：你看越補助就越嚴重，數字越難看啊！"],["何部長佩珊：不過委員，這個就業獎勵對中高齡及婦女方面是非常有幫助的，可能青年方面的績效比較小，這確實，這我們來檢討好嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：好，如果有一些次族群是有幫忙的，那還是要再做檢討。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為總的數字看起來就是撒幣沒有用啊！撒幣沒看到效果。"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們再來檢討。"],["陳委員昭姿：我再跟部長反映一件事，之前許部長的時候，我也跟他提過這樣的事情，成大醫院曾經多次發生壓榨護理師強迫他們加班，拒絕加班的護理師就被調動職位，有一位迄今還在冷凍庫，當他們向勞工局反映的時候又變成黑名單，這個新聞出現好多次了。我最近又收到陳情，成大護理師向我反映他們要上系統去填寫加班經費的時候，系統會顯示經費不足，然後直接鎖起來，連申請加班都沒辦法，部長，你覺得這樣合情合理嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我請我署長……當然不合理，當然不合理。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是成功大學附設醫院，成功大學附設醫院已經進入前五大收入最高的醫院，大概一年有十七多億的盈餘，他們這樣對待護理師嗎？我還要再談兩點，等一下請勞動部說清楚，每次護理師鼓起勇氣向臺南勞工局檢舉的時候，勞檢的前幾天，突然這個系統又修復了，又可以上去填加班費。根據勞動檢查法，基本上勞檢是不能夠事先通知的，但是這樣的作法已經不只一次了，所以我們就會懷疑是不是內神通外鬼，是不是臺南勞工局就事先通知院方說：好，我們現在去勞檢了，所以你所有系統都要恢復正常。這樣子的作法已經好多次了。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，臺南市勞工局針對這個有檢查處分過。"],["陳委員昭姿：檢查處分，這個處分是地方衛生局處分嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：臺南市勞工局。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是你們去看處分罰鍰多少錢？署長請說。"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們再提供資料給委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：你罰多少錢？兩萬元啦！"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，成大醫院確實是臺南市政府勞工局的一個……"],["陳委員昭姿：黑名單吧！"],["鄒署長子廉：首要的對象之一，因為他們最近幾年的勞資爭議跟申訴案件一直都有，所以我們對檢查當然一定是不會通知檢查……"],["陳委員昭姿：第一個，你一定要守住。"],["鄒署長子廉：然後申訴案，我們會依照……"],["陳委員昭姿：第二個，你為什麼罰兩萬塊呢？我想你在這邊的年資比何部長還深嘛！"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：你應該了解罰兩萬塊像話嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告……"],["陳委員昭姿：一年有十多億的淨收入。"],["鄒署長子廉：不同的法條罰多少錢我們有一個法條基準。"],["陳委員昭姿：還是它有範圍？我每次看到你們都罰最低的。"],["鄒署長子廉：是，我們會再把詳細的裁罰紀錄給委員參考。"],["陳委員昭姿：現在護理師已經很珍貴了，好不好？"],["鄒署長子廉：是，沒有錯。"],["陳委員昭姿：請好好照顧護理師。"],["鄒署長子廉：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：成大醫院身為國立醫院不應該做出這樣的事情來，謝謝主席。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：謝謝陳昭姿委員的發言，謝謝部長的回應。","下一位我們請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}