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這不是上網公開我已經發函給你們要了你們不給我欸這個研修委員會在討論法條是有什麼國家機密嗎?為什麼不能提供?"},{"start":397.887,"end":406.331,"text":"我們也都提供了是蛤什麼時候提供的這個研修會的紀錄有給我不是你怎麼講話在立法院裡面反反覆覆的啊沒有沒有跟委員報告因為是另外一個所以我就問你嘛為什麼民事訴訟法的可以公開"},{"start":420.52,"end":425.584,"text":"我問一個最根本價值的問題嘛不管是事後彙整成策事後為什麼要彙整成策就讓所有關心這個法律的人知道這個法條形成的過程是什麼嘛這件事情有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":449.52,"end":452.221,"text":"回去會去檢討、研議請你們公開好不好立法院裡面所有的公聽會委員會的審查、院會全部都公開啊怎麼司法院自己在搞黑箱這樣對嗎不至於很簡單啊就把東西所有公開我為什麼會問這件事情"},{"start":473.496,"end":502.331,"text":"一個法案怎麼形成的特別是司法院提出來的我一定會去拜讀我特別發言人去跟你們要的這個研究計畫我不是要來玩的是要來看的我要看老師們當初提什麼條文跟你們提出來的條文對照我為什麼會要研討會的記錄因為中間有很大的落差那這個落差是怎麼發生的理由是什麼"},{"start":503.444,"end":516.308,"text":"完全找不到啊來我進一步請教你你們今天所提出來的這個稅務行政案件審理法除了租稅債務以外有沒有包括租稅處罰案件審理範圍啦有嘛那如果有包括租稅處罰的話當事人的協力義務在租稅處罰的要件證明有協力義務嗎"},{"start":530.576,"end":554.803,"text":"我們的那個協力義務包括當事人然後沒有特別去區分那個處罰跟那個對所以答案是有沒有包括租稅處罰包括也許是特別強調稅審法跟民事訴訟法跟行政訴訟法不一樣的地方你如果齁因為我看這個法條當事人的協力義務包括在租稅債務我沒意見啦包括在租稅處罰"},{"start":556.727,"end":579.677,"text":"這可能就必須要深入討論但你們在法條完全沒區分我為什麼說在租稅處罰需要深入討論來 我們來看一下這個是最高行政法院的見解針對租稅債務跟租稅處罰兩者之間本質上面的不同最高行政法院在歷來的判決裡面寫得蠻清楚的 來看一下"},{"start":581.823,"end":609.625,"text":"最高行政法院的判決認為財閥相對人對於租稅處罰這件事情沒有鮮豔的協力義務這個立場司法院是不是要透過這一次審理法的修正予以辯更因為處罰那一部分並沒有確如委員所講並沒有做特別的區分所以你們是不是要藉由這一次修法去辯更最高行政法院的見解立法理由是沒有特別去講出來的區分"},{"start":611.687,"end":631.619,"text":"那你們提這個法案明定了當事人的協力義務而且穿透力很強喔那個穿透力啊到了無罪推定原則在稅法的領域裡面通常叫做移責無罪的原則都排除掉了欸都排除掉了欸"},{"start":632.694,"end":661.67,"text":"那這租稅處罰到底有沒有適用我為什麼做這個完整的對照表給司法院看因為我就很狐疑啊你們今天提這個審理法是要排除要變更最高行政法院判決的見解嗎租稅處罰沒有協力義務變成有協力義務租稅處罰本來有無罪推定原則的適用你們這個法下去就變成沒有無罪推定原則的適用"},{"start":663.732,"end":679.381,"text":"你們真的有這個修法的意圖嗎?沒有準用啦我拜託法律人在上面講話不要胡說啦哪一條寫準用適用就適用嘛還準用"},{"start":691.104,"end":710.772,"text":"跟委員抱歉那那是不是啊我現在跟司法院講喔這件事情啊知識體大知識體大在租稅處罰的部分是不是要藉由這個法律的修正變更向來最高行政法院的見解這個對於納稅權利人啊納稅義務人啊影響非常的深遠影響非常的深遠因為就你們"},{"start":718.496,"end":735.168,"text":"本來在上面的第14條啊第14條的這個條文其實我從當初的研究計畫裡面我沒有看到這個條文啊那顯然是在後面你們司法院研修的過程當中把條文加上去嘛"},{"start":736.007,"end":763.376,"text":"要不然送來立法院的版本不會蹦出來這個條文嗎那我就很好奇啊當初你們花錢請聖子榮教授做研究計畫沒有這個條文現在送到立法院裡面來的有這個條文這個條文從何而來基於什麼樣的立法考慮有沒有參酌最高行政法院判決的意旨最後把這個條文送到立法院來了"},{"start":766.028,"end":775.174,"text":"這些立法的資料我現在完全找不到請你們會後提供最後我要講一個很關鍵的問題什麼關鍵的問題你們要涉稅務審查官結果稅務審查官從稅政機關找人這個事情我可以直接跟你講民間團體有很大的疑慮但更重要的重點還不是這個"},{"start":793.411,"end":805.131,"text":"你們這個稅務審查官是有關等的吧?建任7等到9等嗎?有關等的人可以用聘用人員條例聘用嗎?來請一下選區部的"},{"start":807.338,"end":827.474,"text":"有關的人可以用聘用條例聘用嗎?請簡單回答依照聘用條例第7條的規定有關於聘用人員他是不得充任就是列有職稱檢認兼任職稱的職務也不得兼任列有職等的職務來再請司法院的全序部的說不可以啊你們今天提來的草案這樣搞"},{"start":830.006,"end":834.188,"text":"是要創設黑官嗎?對啊但是聘用人員條例可以這樣繞過去喔?是要搞黑官嗎?全區部都反對了現在司法院立場如何?"},{"start":849.69,"end":870.907,"text":"我們當然是希望說我們會跟全序部溝通看看不是嘛以後所有的公務機關是只有司法院可以我用偏用人員條例搞有官等的人是只有司法院可以還是全中華民國各個行政機關大家都公平都可以這樣搞來許全序部表示意見對這個條文贊成還是反對"},{"start":874.622,"end":898.004,"text":"基本上就是聘用條例裡面的規定,如果你符合聘用條例裡面的規定,你就可以用聘用條例去禁用人員。是,這個我了解,這不是我的問題。基本上就是說,如果有需要他要去聘用這樣子類似紀審官的,這樣職稱的人,原則上不宜用紀審官,因為他是列有職稱官人之等的部分。列有官等就不能這樣搞嘛。"},{"start":898.784,"end":904.429,"text":"你書面就寫得這麼清楚了嘛上來講得含含糊糊的怕得罪司法院喔司法院喔再回去想一下全中華民國是只有你們司法院有特權還是各個行政機關都可以這樣幹謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":97,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時11分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請司法院副秘書長，然後銓敘部的代表。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長、銓敘部代表。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["主席：請廖專門委員。"],["黃委員國昌：副秘書長，今天審查有關於稅務行政事件審理法草案，這個會牽涉到納稅者權益的保護，我相信司法院非常地清楚，行政法院在處理稅務案件的時候，人民的勝訴率是非常非常低。2017年我們在財政委員會的時候制定納稅者權利保護法，在上路了以後，一路觀察，看起來的表現似乎是跟我們當初期待的差距還滿遠的，原因可能非常地多，我們等一下再細細地討論。當人民就稅務案件提起行政訴訟，勝訴率這麼低的時候，到底行政訴訟是不是有辦法發揮公平救濟這樣子的目的，會遭受到很多人的質疑。今天這個法案看起來是滿重要的，我看你們之前有花了錢，請了學者做了一個研究計畫，研究計畫不是通常都要上網嗎？你們為什麼沒公開？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，應該會有上網，我們回去……"],["黃委員國昌：你們去確認一下好不好？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是、是。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我只要上網查得到的東西，我基本上都不會特別請你們提供，但我就是上網查不到嘛。因為所有政府機關委託學者做的研究報告，納稅人花了錢，這個東西就要公開，那這個東西公開很重要啊！因為你如果認真要處理稅務行政訴訟事件審理法的話，就要看一路以來，這個法條到底是怎麼演變的，譬如說，教授當初怎麼建議的，司法院是怎麼審議的，最後送到立法院的條文長什麼樣子，在什麼階段、基於什麼樣子的理由做了變更，這些紀錄都很重要，副秘書長贊不贊成？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個我完全贊成，我們回去瞭解，因為我們其他的都會……"],["黃委員國昌：好，你完全贊成。我們再繼續看，你們針對這個審理法的草案開了幾次公聽會？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：好像有辦過一次公聽會吧！"],["黃委員國昌：只有辦一次嘛！8月12號的時候才辦嘛！8月12號的時候，除了財政部，就是負責在課稅的，代表國家高權行為在課稅的公務員以外，民間的人士請了幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們……"],["黃委員國昌：我上面秀給你看了啦！請了5位啦！與會七十幾個人，政府機關代表68個人，全部都是在代表國家行使高權行為的，民間代表只有5位，突然排審了這個案子以後，我接到很多陳情，覺得司法院怎麼辦一個公聽會辦得偷偷摸摸的，然後民間的代表只有5位，有很多人對我們課稅以及行政訴訟的這件事情非常地關心，而且強烈地不滿、強烈地不滿，認為我們的司法院開一個公聽會是在走過水的，民間人士只請來5個，大家連參與的機會都沒有，甚至啊！看一下，連政府機關的代表都覺得這個公聽會召開的時間非常緊迫，來看一下，我們財政部賦稅署的代表說：「主席，不好意思，今天公聽會召集得比較急迫」。這不是我說的，連政府機關的代表都這樣講啊！這個公聽會逐字稿可不可以上網？這個逐字稿還是我去跟你們要的耶！能不能上網？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：以往我們的……"],["黃委員國昌：這不是公聽會嗎？還是私聽會？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們回去會研議，因為我們公聽會有滿多的會，是不是都逐字稿上網，因為有一些與會者他們並不希望陳述的意見被……"],["黃委員國昌：這不叫公聽會嗎？公聽會都不公開，還叫公聽會喔？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們回去檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：這個會有困難嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為有一些……"],["黃委員國昌：司法院要搞黑箱嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然不是，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：當然不是？有不可以公開上網的理由嗎？","再往下看，為了這個審理事件成立一個委員會，我找了半天，我找不到你們研修會討論的紀錄，我發函跟你們要，結果司法院回給我的文字是這個樣子，我來唸給副秘書長聽：關於此部分的資料，本院向來不提供，因為會議討論過程結論是本院研修參考，涉及決策過程的內部意見溝通或思辨資訊，所以不便提供。這個是理由嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為我們研修的這個紀錄，以往的慣例是這樣，如果我們要……"],["黃委員國昌：你確定嗎？你確定嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是、是，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：司法院，以前我們在做民事訴訟法研修的時候，民事訴訟法研修會的紀錄出了幾本啦！副秘書長，你知不知道？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為我也曾經是研修委員，所以那個後來有……"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼民事訴訟法的可以公開，這個不行？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：但是上網公開，這部分好像民事訴訟的研修會……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！這不是上網公開，我已經發函跟你們要了，你們不給我耶！這個研修委員會在討論法條是有什麼國家機密嗎？為什麼不能提供？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：後來我們也都提供了，是。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候提供的？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：昨天也有提供。"],["黃委員國昌：這個研修會的紀錄有給我？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有、沒有、沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，你怎麼在立法院裡面講話反反覆覆的啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有、沒有，跟委員報告，因為是另外一個會。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就問你嘛！為什麼民事訴訟法的可以公開，這個不能公開？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，民事訴訟法的公開是後來彙整成冊，也不是主動去提供給所有的社會各界，就我所知道的。"],["黃委員國昌：我就問一個最根本價值的問題嘛！不管是事後彙整成冊，事後為什麼要彙整成冊？就是讓所有關心這個法律的人知道法條形成的過程是什麼嘛！這件事情有這麼困難嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們回去會檢討、研議。"],["黃委員國昌：請你們公開好不好？立法院裡面所有的公聽會、委員會的審查、院會全部都公開啊！怎麼司法院自己在搞黑箱，這樣對嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，應該也不至於，因為後來彙整冊……"],["黃委員國昌：不至於？很簡單啦！就把所有東西公開，我為什麼會問這件事情？一個法案怎麼形成的，特別是司法院提出來的，我一定會去拜讀，我特別發函去跟你們要的這個研究計畫，我不是要來玩的，是要來看的，我要看老師們當初提什麼條文，跟你們提出來的條文對照，我為什麼會要研討會的紀錄？因為中間有很大的落差，這個落差是怎麼發生的，理由是什麼，完全找不到啊！我進一步請教你，你們今天所提出來的稅務行政事件審理法，除了租稅債務以外，有沒有包括租稅處罰？案件審理範圍啦！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：有、有。"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛！如果有包括租稅處罰的話，當事人對租稅處罰的要件證明有協力義務嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們的協力義務包括當事人，沒有特別去區分處罰跟那個……"],["黃委員國昌：所以答案是有沒有包括租稅處罰？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：會包括，也許是特別強調稅審法跟民事訴訟法，跟行政訴訟法不一樣的地方。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我看這個法條，當事人的協力義務，包括在租稅債務，我沒意見啦，包括在租稅處罰，這可能就必須要深入討論，但你們在法條上完全沒區分，我為什麼說在租稅處罰需要深入討論？我們來看一下，這是最高行政法院的見解，針對租稅債務跟租稅處罰，兩者之間有本質上的不同，最高行政法院在歷來的判決裡面寫得滿清楚的，來看一下，最高行政法院的判決認為裁罰相對人對於租稅處罰這件事情並沒有先驗的協力義務，這個立場，司法院是不是要透過這一次審理法的修正予以變更？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為處罰那一部分確如委員所講，並沒有做特別的區分……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們是不是要藉由這一次修法去變更最高行政法院的見解？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：立法理由是沒有特別去講說要變更啦……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊！你們提這個法案，明定了當事人的協力義務，而且穿透力很強喔！那個穿透力到了無罪推定原則，在稅法的領域裡面通常叫做疑則無罪的原則，都排除掉了耶，那在租稅處罰到底有沒有適用？我為什麼做這個完整的對照表給司法院看？因為我就很狐疑啊，你們今天提這個審理法是要排除、要變更最高行政法院判決的見解嗎？租稅處罰沒有協力義務變成有協力義務，租稅處罰本來有無罪推定原則的適用，你們這個法下去，就變成沒有無罪推定原則的適用……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，就是說……"],["黃委員國昌：你們真的有這個修法的意圖嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：立法理由沒有這樣子講，要用也是準用嘛對不對？準用，當然如果說……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有準用啦！拜託，法律人在上面講話不要胡謅啦！哪一條寫準用？"],["程廳長怡怡：適用。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：適用。"],["黃委員國昌：適用就適用嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是、是。"],["黃委員國昌：還準用？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為我可能記錯了，跟委員抱歉，那適用……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，我現在要跟司法院講，這件事情茲事體大，在租稅處罰的部分，是不是要藉由這個法律的修正變更向來最高行政法院的見解？這個對於納稅權利人、納稅義務人影響非常的深遠，因為就你們本來這上面的第十四條，第十四條的這個條文，其實我從當初的研究計畫裡面沒有看到這個條文，顯然是在後面你們司法院研修的過程當中把條文加上去嘛，要不然送來立法院的版本不會蹦出來這個條文嘛。那我就很好奇啊，當初你們花錢請盛子龍教授做的研究計畫沒有這個條文，現在送到立法院裡面來的提案有這個條文，這個條文從何而來？基於什麼樣的立法考慮？有沒有參酌最高行政法院判決的意旨？最後把這個條文送到立法院來了，但這些立法的資料我現在完全找不到，請你們會後提供。","最後，我要講一個很關鍵的問題，什麼關鍵的問題？你們要設稅務審查官，結果稅務審查官是從稅捐稽徵機關去找人，這個事情我可以直接跟你講，民間團體有很大的疑慮，但更重要的重點還不是這個，你們這個稅務審查官是有官等的嘛，薦任七等到九等，有官等的人可以用聘用人員條例聘用嗎？","請一下銓敘部的代表，有官等的人可以用聘用人員條例聘用嗎？"],["主席：請簡單回答。"],["廖專門委員康如：依照聘用條例第七條的規定，聘用人員是不得充任列有簡任、薦任職稱的職務，也不得兼任列有職等的職務。"],["黃委員國昌：再請教司法院，銓敘部說不可以，你們今天提來的草案這樣搞，是要創設黑官嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有，跟委員報告，這是參考技審官的，這是參考智慧財產案件審理法技審官的規定……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，但是聘用人員條例可以這樣繞過去喔？是要搞黑官嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有，當然不是。"],["黃委員國昌：銓敘部都反對了，現在司法院的立場如何？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們當然是希望說，我們會跟銓敘部溝通，看看這個怎麼樣……"],["黃委員國昌：不是嘛……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為我們類似……"],["黃委員國昌：以後所有的公務機關，是只有司法院可以用聘用人員條例搞有官等的人，是只有司法院可以，還是全中華民國各個行政機關，大家都公平可以這樣搞？請銓敘部表示意見，對這個條文贊成還是反對？"],["廖專門委員康如：基本上以聘用條例的規定來說，如果符合聘用條例的規定，就可以用聘用條例去進用人員，那……"],["黃委員國昌：是，這個我了解，這不是我的問題。"],["廖專門委員康如：基本上就是說，如果有需要去聘用類似技審官這樣職稱的人，原則上不宜用技審官，因為他是列有職稱官等職等的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：列有官等就不能這樣搞嘛！"],["廖專門委員康如：所以原則上如果他有需要……"],["黃委員國昌：你書面就寫得這麼清楚了嘛，上來講得含含糊糊的，怕得罪司法院喔？","司法院，再回去想一下，全中華民國是只有你們司法院有特權，還是各個行政機關都可以這樣幹？謝謝。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝黃副秘書長。","針對剛剛的詢答內容，主席這邊先作個宣告：因為關於到公聽會的部分，的確我們各方的意見需要更進一步的參酌，請司法院思考一下。在這裡也提醒我們委員會的委員，因為根據憲法第五十七條的規定是「行政院依左列規定，對立法院負責」，其中對行政院長跟行政院各部會首長，我們是質詢；另外根據憲法第七十一條規定「立法院開會時，關係院院長及各部會首長得列席陳述意見。」所以待會對於行政院的部分，我們是屬於質詢，至於司法院的部分則是陳述意見，在這裡一併敘明。","接下來有請羅委員智強發言。"],["謝委員龍介：客氣一點啊！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}