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Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n五、\t審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n六、\t審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n七、\t審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n八、\t審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)\n【10月30日及31日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.262218750000001,"end":7.185968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.574093750000001,"end":8.654093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.26096875,"end":25.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.254718750000002,"end":45.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.33596875,"end":54.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.60471875,"end":72.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.32346875,"end":78.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.49971875,"end":81.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.33471875000001,"end":83.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.96721875,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.53909375,"end":108.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.77346875,"end":126.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.21784375000001,"end":128.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.54659375,"end":137.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.57909375,"end":138.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.76034375,"end":143.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.87346875,"end":145.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.33721875,"end":154.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.57221875000002,"end":170.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.02096875,"end":172.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.70846875,"end":181.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.96034375000002,"end":183.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.20471875,"end":184.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.24659375000002,"end":188.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.03096875,"end":193.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.39721875,"end":196.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.96221875,"end":198.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.27846875,"end":198.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.98721875,"end":208.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.53846875000002,"end":209.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.36534375000002,"end":210.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.74471875,"end":217.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.19096875000002,"end":223.62471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.61596875,"end":227.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.82659375,"end":229.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.76721875,"end":232.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.83409375000002,"end":235.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.71971875000003,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.77846875,"end":241.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.93409375000002,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.80721875,"end":245.98409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.72659375,"end":247.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.46471875,"end":249.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.21534375000002,"end":251.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.00409375,"end":253.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.84346875000003,"end":255.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.02471875000003,"end":262.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.36971875,"end":265.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.60534375000003,"end":270.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.95909375,"end":273.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.57471875000005,"end":285.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.65284375000005,"end":286.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.37846875,"end":299.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.81096875000003,"end":304.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.45159375000003,"end":308.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.64096875,"end":309.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.10471875,"end":312.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.07909375,"end":341.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.39096875,"end":371.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.75346875,"end":376.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.03534375000004,"end":378.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.99284375,"end":381.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.77721875000003,"end":386.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.39659375,"end":388.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.32034375,"end":396.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.35721875,"end":399.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.85034375000004,"end":400.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.59284375000004,"end":413.6034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1867年的羅發號事件導致了美方跟狼牙18社的南甲之盟這個範疇你們怎麼去詮釋?不義嗎?牡丹社事件之後1874年清朝就為了這個事件以後開始開山撫帆"},{"start":194.794,"end":223.033,"text":"進入了原住民的區域之後建立了防疫、土牛溝等隔離的設施。這些保護的設施也是隔離跟壓迫。你要怎麼去詮釋它呢?不義嘛!誰的不義?日治時期的壓迫更是有系統性的。我們都知道的1914年的泰魯閣事件、30年的霧社事件。這不是日本政府對我們的壓迫嗎?"},{"start":225.68,"end":253.465,"text":"那莫那魯道集體帶族人自殺的地方你們要怎麼去詮釋?不義嗎?總統府的前身台灣總督府這是日治時期最高的權力他有沒有壓迫我們?那你要不要叫總統府不義遺址?還是你要學韓國把全台灣的不義遺址都除掉?你們想一想"},{"start":256.092,"end":281.949,"text":"所以史官應該是家法本席已經提到了很多次在跟您質詢的時候不義遺址這件事還是請你記得你的承諾所以這個不義遺址的名稱適合嗎目前我們適合怎麼討論這個問題我們是不是在人權場域中學習這整個事件是不是一個人權的概念那人權應該怎麼被討論怎麼被詮釋我還是那句話誰的不義"},{"start":286.693,"end":309.31,"text":"好,所以我們是不是可以涵蓋更多一點還有一個很實際的問題現在你們目前所謂的不義遺址有一些見物不見了有一些是私人財產這個產權被關以不義如果今天是你家那我不知道部長你怎麼回應我你覺得如果你家被關為不義你怎麼看待"},{"start":311.321,"end":312.402,"text":"這個部分可不可以請您先回應?"},{"start":341.124,"end":341.169,"text":"擬具鄭天財"},{"start":343.282,"end":370.92,"text":"謝謝部長所以也請記得還是要記得您剛才給紅委員的承諾法定重來這件事是給文化部一個展現你專業的機會所以我這邊呼籲我希望能夠全面正義而不是選擇性的正義重新定義這個名詞面對歷史部長我們不能片面化也不能選擇性的只記住某些時期忽略其他時期的痛苦"},{"start":371.821,"end":386.112,"text":"今天這個條例我希望它不會讓未來更分裂不要讓各個族群會感到不同形式的壓迫史觀應該是家法發生過的我們就記住它"},{"start":387.901,"end":413.129,"text":"從這裡面去學習。這個不義遺址我希望不要太不容易被紀念因為紀念這些歷史創傷然後有的時候你會讓我們覺得我已經被加害的人還要接受加害者的視角究竟這是在還原歷史掩蓋歷史還是選擇性操作還是本席之前講的另一種威權"},{"start":414.805,"end":418.191,"text":"最後還是回到正題誰是不正義的一方?部長您要針對我剛才的部分做回應嗎?"},{"start":429.536,"end":448.271,"text":"我剛才有強調加害者跟被害者,然後您剛才提到原住民的事情,每一件事情都被拍成電影過,比如說斯卡羅,還有斯卡羅這個……已經拍過的我想大家都有很多討論跟詮釋,那如同剛才……"},{"start":451.934,"end":465.822,"text":"本委員所講的。那我們希望記住您的未來的推動能夠在全世上考慮到所有的視角。最後,今、はぎや、ミサ・ウィリアン、ドゥ・ユン・ジュ・ミン、ハ・ディニアイ、ア・ラ・フィン、ア・ファス、サナイ・イティニ、"},{"start":476.653,"end":503.306,"text":"改提拉安等19人保存條例草案案。netesa Wili Aung等19人保存條例草案案。請記住他們是誰?誰是不義的一方?任何對原住民的剝奪,不公不義,不分時期,都是不義。請我們從人權的概念中學習吧。"},{"start":509.347,"end":514.435,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員的指教希望我們未來也可以用這個題材拍電影永遠記得這些"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":127,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（9時24分）謝謝召委，我們請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["林委員倩綺：部長，在開始今天的詢答之前，請記得剛才您對洪孟楷委員的承諾，就是法定重來這件事情。","今天本席的質詢主題是「誰的不義？」，過去幾週本席一直有跟您提到，文化政策應該要包容，才不會落入另外一種威權，所以本席一直希望能夠用多元的方式、擴大歷史範疇的方式，來處理我國的人權問題，在面對、處理過去歷史上的人權，是需要謹慎的，因為這涉及我們未來的文化發展，跟現在的族群和解，甚至是政策的公平性和政府的責任，剛才孟楷委員也有提到。我這邊的資料顯示，監察院的調查報告告訴我們，我再重提一次，轉型正義工作的重點，了解與揭露真相、避免重蹈覆轍、以理解來開啟和解的可能性。所以，我們如果就正義這一方來做論戰，我真的要問的是誰的正義？請您記得我今天的主題。","剛才我們一直討論您今天法規上所定義的威權時期，請你們好好審慎去處理這個問題。首先，我要問到一個問題，如果從原住民的視角，那不義是什麼？我們看到的是，早來這個土地的在排擠晚來的，晚來的甚至現在壓迫原本在這個島上的，這樣的壓迫與不平，是不是要納入不義的定義？","今天您給本席相關的回應，也就是針對某一個時期，剛才孟楷委員也有提到，我想接下來很多委員也都會提到，所以要問的是，這個轉型正義是針對某些人或某些時期的選擇性記憶嗎？如果要這樣講，以政權來講，1624年荷蘭人建立熱蘭遮城的時候，荷蘭人也就是現在的尼德蘭人，那我們在這塊土地上的人，就已經在外來的勢力下，經歷過剝削與壓迫，難道沒有人經歷這個課徵重稅、強迫勞役，而且還被軍事鎮壓的階段嗎？如果不義遺址只能如你們所講的，終戰以後才開始的話，請問歷史上的不義，你們又怎麼去詮釋呢？難道現在全世界有關於猶太人被屠殺的博物館，是在終戰之後嗎？","1867年的羅發號事件，導致了美方與瑯嶠十八社的南岬之盟，這個範疇你們怎麼去詮釋？是不義嗎？牡丹社事件之後，1874年清朝為了這個事件，就開始開山撫蕃，進入了原住民的區域之後，建立了防疫、土牛溝等隔離的設施，這些保護的設施也是隔離跟壓迫，那你要怎麼去詮釋它呢？是不義嗎？誰的不義？","日治時期的壓迫，更是系統性的，我們都知道1914年的太魯閣事件、1930年的霧社事件，這不是日本政府對我們的壓迫嗎？莫那魯道帶族人集體自殺的地方，你們要怎麼去詮釋？是不義嗎？總統府的前身──臺灣總督府，這是日治時期最高權力的象徵，它有沒有壓迫我們？那你要不要叫總統府不義遺址？還是你要學韓國，把全臺灣的不義遺址都除掉？你們想一想！","所以史觀應該是加法，本席在跟您質詢的時候已經提到了很多次，不義遺址這件事還是請你記得你的承諾，所以這個「不義遺址」的名稱適合嗎？目前我們適合討論這個問題嗎？我們是不是在人權場域中學習？這整個事件是不是一個人權的概念？人權應該怎麼被討論、怎麼被詮釋？我還是那句話：「誰的不義？」","所以我們是不是可以涵蓋更多一點，還有一個很實際的問題，現在你們所謂的不義遺址，有一些建物不見了，有一些是私人財產，這個產權被冠以不義，如果今天是你家，我不知道部長你怎麼回應我？你覺得如果你家被冠為不義，你怎麼看待？這個部分可不可以請您先回應？"],["李部長遠：剛才委員問得非常好，就是剛才我們有特別報告，不義遺址分兩種：一個是公家機關，一個是私人的。公家機關部分，我們可以按照法令去要求他處理與不義遺址相關後續的、陸續的一些事情。但私人部分，法律沒有辦法強迫他一定要列入，這點我們事先就考慮過。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝部長。所以也請記得您剛才給洪委員的承諾，法定重來是給文化部一個展現專業的機會，所以我在此呼籲，希望能夠全面正義，而不是選擇性的正義，希望重新定義這個名詞。面對歷史，部長，我們不能片面化，也不能選擇性的只記住某些時期，而忽略其他時期的痛苦。今天這個條例我希望它不會讓未來更分裂，不要讓各個族群感到不同情勢的壓迫。史觀應該是加法，發生過的，我們就記住它，從這裡面去學習。至於不義遺址，我希望不要太不容易被紀念，因為有時候紀念這些歷史創傷會讓我們覺得，已經被加害的人還要接受加害者的視角，究竟這是在還原歷史、掩蓋歷史，還是選擇性操作？還是本席之前講的，另一種威權？","最後還是回到正題，誰是不正義的一方？部長，你要針對我剛才講的部分做回應嗎？"],["李部長遠：在歷史上我剛才有強調加害者跟被害者，您提到有關原住民的事，每一件事情都被拍成電影過，譬如說斯卡羅，你剛才講的……"],["林委員倩綺：已經拍過的，我想大家都有很多討論跟詮釋……"],["李部長遠：還有魏德勝拍的賽德克巴萊……"],["林委員倩綺：如同剛才洪委員所講的，我們希望記住您未來的推動能夠在詮釋上考慮到所有的視角。最後，Ci：ma hakiya? misawili'ay to Yen-cu-min hatiniay a lafin，a：fas sanay itini kaitiraan no to'as saheto o misawili'ay，請記住他們是誰？誰是不義的一方？任何對原住民的剝奪，不公、不義、不分時期都是不義。請從人權的概念中學習吧，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員的指教，希望我們未來也可以用這題材拍電影，永遠記得這些不義的事情，謝謝。"],["主席：部長請回。請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}