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對不對還有什麼別的責任嗎我問你有什麼責任嘛請教就教你嘛你也只能尊重我的意見啦我就幫你回答啦沒有責任嘛"},{"start":372.318,"end":388.242,"text":"就是大法官赤裸裸示範跟大家講說從小教你不要說謊這是一個天大的罪惡啊我們小時候教育是錯的官員今天在立法院不說謊是錯的官員在立法院說謊是天經地義的今天就赤裸裸示範這件事情啊我想請財政部謝謝副秘書長來請財政部理事長請"},{"start":405.216,"end":425.434,"text":"請教次長昨天有網友爆料說財政部推廣民眾使用的雲端發票的抽獎活動雲端種樹去一起集點樹那似乎三期活動有四位民眾重複種獎很多人質疑不公那昨天晚上我看"},{"start":426.864,"end":453.356,"text":"財政部發新聞稿說抽獎都在律師的見證下進行公平公正公開至於有沒有不公的行為還在查證中我想請問財政部現在查的怎麼樣報告委員目前我還在查證中還在查證效率可以快一點我們會積極請那個主辦單位趕快辦理而且我們會將查證的結果對外來公佈我現在就直接問一件事財政部應該馬上可以回答了"},{"start":454.042,"end":467.771,"text":"有網友爆料其中一位重複中獎的人是財政部的員工如果不是請現在好好地澄清不要傷害財政部的信譽有沒有財政部員工在裡面?這部分我不清楚"},{"start":469.215,"end":469.496,"text":"委員．羅智強委員"},{"start":495.814,"end":495.834,"text":"議員：羅智強"},{"start":520.888,"end":536.919,"text":"我等一下就請我們同仁轉資我們主辦單位,馬上查證。等一下給委員會。我再請教齁,你們新文稿我想齁,第一期結束可以參加第二期、第三期嘛。只要繼續參加就有機會再中嘛,對不對?是不是?是。那請問這三期有多少人中獎?嗯...那個..."},{"start":539.912,"end":564.642,"text":"我幫你講,如果我有講錯你幫我更正網站上來看三期中獎人數將近1700人其中1680人是抽到50元到100元的禮券只有19個人抽到特殊大獎包括iPhone、手機、吉安特、腳踏車可是這19個人裡面竟然有4個人連續兩次抽到大獎我想請問這個機率有多高?"},{"start":570.307,"end":596.104,"text":"呃 這個當然如果用一般抽獎的機率 機率其實到底是多少我不確定但是應該是沒有那麼高的機率啊 所以我們也 我告訴你你要看母數啦 對不對 是因為抽獎 中獎那個連續中獎的人數四個人齁 這已經是一個所謂的數字齁 但是要看母數齁 那我想請教你查了一天齁 第一期第二期第三期分別抽獎的人數是多少 應該有了吧 可以給我一下嗎"},{"start":601.032,"end":605.659,"text":"你們昨天新聞稿有啦,報名註冊9萬多人啦,符合抽獎資格在12萬到13.6萬人嘛,這數字有錯嗎?"},{"start":616.323,"end":642.802,"text":"我們好啦我跟你講你會後再告訴如果數字有錯或是看你們的新聞我們有一個統計表對9萬人抽獎每個人可以抽獎三輪一輪有五個中獎名額第二輪有五個中獎名額第三輪有九個中獎名額請問四個人中獎兩次的機率有多少我不知道可能要算一下我告訴你啊我來念給你聽好了那機率低到什麼程度啊"},{"start":643.533,"end":661.779,"text":"我後來有找這個用CHAT GPT來演算那AI跟我講一個數字我也有請那個統計學的教授幫我問了一下他只是跟我講說這個已經小到基本上很難比尼出來然後我跟你講我看到CHAT GPT給我的答案你聽聽看是多少他告訴我答案將近十萬億分之一我想請教你"},{"start":673.765,"end":701.699,"text":"這個幾乎在生活上統計上不可能發生的事情只剩下為什麼人民會懷疑原因是什麼原因為什麼會懷疑因為在自然上基本上是不會發生的那只剩下一個可能性了嘛什麼可能性就是舞弊啊人民為什麼會覺得但機率上幾乎不可能發生所以人民會懷疑是舞弊那我要跟市長講這件事有多嚴重你知道吧"},{"start":702.861,"end":719.419,"text":"你知道這件事嚴重在哪裡嗎?請委員指示這件事在攸關財政部將來辦的任何活動的公信力啊是了解所以如果說今天這件幾乎在機率上不會發生的事情發生了"},{"start":720.837,"end":720.997,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝羅委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":192,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時27分）客氣？有什麼好客氣的？我們的主席再次展現星宿黨大弟子的風範，一上來，等到黃國昌講完之後就開始了……"],["主席：委員，請尊重主席的職權……"],["羅委員智強：我需要尊重你啊？"],["主席：我尊重你的發言內容……"],["羅委員智強：你也沒尊重黃國昌啊，我尊重你什麼？你在會後那邊電他一下是什麼意思？你主席少來這一套！我幫你翻白話啦，今天司法院退席都沒關係，不用理立法院啦，我幫你翻白話啦！"],["主席：你的質詢要邀請哪一位？"],["羅委員智強：我幫你翻白話！我還沒開始時間！"],["主席：我還沒開始啊，我是問你要邀請哪一位？"],["羅委員智強：已經開始了，給我計時了啊！"],["主席：沒有、沒有，還沒開始，你要邀請哪一位？"],["羅委員智強：我還沒講完，會議詢問，對不對？主席啊，你官威是不是很大？你官威有沒有很大？"],["主席：委員請發言。"],["羅委員智強：黃國昌講完話，你還給他回馬槍補他一槍，好啦，隨便啦，問你也沒有用啦，我知道你是星宿派大弟子啦！我請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：剛剛主席講了，我們只能質詢行政院，我不知道副秘書長你來這裡幹什麼？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然，委員有垂詢，我們都會儘量回答嘛。"],["羅委員智強：他說你不需要啊，主席都說你不需要，我不知道你為什麼要在這邊？說真的……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想對於委員所說的，我們都會高度尊重。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛，今天立法院審議法案跟審查預算，本來就對各院、各部會有所謂質詢之權啊，我們親愛的鍾佳濱主席又變大法官了，黃國昌在這邊質詢還違憲咧，好厲害喔，嚇死我了，了不起啊，超級無敵強的主席啊，你不要當立法委員，去當大法官快一點啦！","第二個，我想要請教一下我們的副秘書長，剛剛聽到黃國昌委員的質詢，不管是聘用條例，包括無罪推定，包括今天到底有沒有公開的、讓大家公眾周知的公聽會，看起來今天我們司法院的準備，抱歉喔，我覺得是不夠的，是不足的喔！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們是召集研修委員會，由最高行政法院院長，然後各方的意見都有參酌啦，所以……"],["羅委員智強：我看剛剛黃國昌問你一堆問題沒辦法答，但是沒關係，我問你一個問題，剛剛黃委員有說，他說向司法院要有關於委員會審議的討論紀錄嘛，結果你就說不提供嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為以往的研修會紀錄，我們會在事後彙整成冊，然後再對外公開。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，這次我站在你這邊，你知道為什麼嗎？黃國昌算什麼啊！請問你，不要講你啦，任何行政機關，立法委員跟他要資料不提供，請問這樣的法律效力是什麼？法律效果是什麼？按照這次大法官會議解釋，有要負什麼責任？大法官會議解釋出來了，有沒有要負什麼責任？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官會議是說，因為這個質詢是一個政治上面的責任嘛。"],["羅委員智強：我幫你翻白話，你講得太好了，就是沒有責任啦！所以換言之，你不提供資料給黃國昌算什麼，反正黃國昌也拿你沒轍啊！就像我跟經濟部要資料，我要會議資料，他給三份，少一份，他也沒事啊！把最關鍵的藏起來不給我，請問我能拿他怎麼辦？我請教一下副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為這次大法官的解釋是說，五院之間是共同對人民負責啦……"],["羅委員智強：哈哈哈哈哈！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對啊，所以說將來他都要去面對人民。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你啊，副秘書長，我也不是在為難你啦，這些大法官就是憲政的毒瘤啦，講白了，今天你也不過就是示範大法官的憲法判決，告訴大家，我不提供資料其實也沒關係，其實真的沒關係啊，我也搞不懂，今天有關於我們今天審查的法案的公聽會、委員會所討論的資料到底是哪一門的秘密，要保密不能給，我也搞不懂啊？今天納稅人給司法院去研議法案，去找學者寫報告，開委員會去做所謂的相關研修、討論，這些本來就是可以公開的意見啊，我們立法院今天本於要幫人民看守荷包的職責，所以才去向您要資料，想辦法去精進這樣一個所謂的修法過程，結果你資料不給我們。現在請你告訴我，我們怎麼幫人民去做監督、幫人民去看守荷包、幫人民去審定更精進的法案呢？所以今天在這裡，我也跟副秘書長講，我不認為是你的問題啦，抱歉啦，就像主席都可以上來跟你講說你沒有關係，因為基本上，不要講行政，主席也客氣了啦，什麼行政院我們對他可以質詢，對你們不能質詢，連行政院質詢都不行啦！有關於質詢，反正照我們現在大法官會議的解釋出來，官員說謊也沒事啊，請問官員在立法院說謊，依照大法官目前的解釋，要負什麼責任？政治責任，我幫你講完了，對不對？還有什麼別的責任嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員的意見我們當然尊重。"],["羅委員智強：我問你有什麼責任嘛，請教、就教你嘛，你也只能尊重我的意見，我就幫你回答了，沒有責任嘛！就是大法官赤裸裸示範，跟大家講說，從小教你不要說謊，這是一個天大的罪惡啊，我們小時候的教育是錯的，官員今天在立法院不說謊是錯的，官員在立法院說謊是天經地義的，今天就赤裸裸的示範這件事情啊！","我想請財政部，謝謝副秘書長。"],["主席：請財政部李次長，副秘書長請回。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：次長，昨天有網友爆料，財政部推廣民眾使用雲端發票的抽獎活動「雲端種樹趣e起集點樹」，似乎三期活動有4位民眾重複中獎，很多人質疑不公。昨天晚上我看到財政部發新聞稿表示，抽獎都在律師的見證下進行，公平、公正、公開，至於有沒有不公的行為還在查證中。我想請問財政部，現在查得怎麼樣？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，目前我還在查證中。"],["羅委員智強：還在查證？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["羅委員智強：效率可以快一點，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：是，我們會積極請主辦單位趕快辦理，而且我們會將查證的結果對外公布。"],["羅委員智強：我現在就直接問一件事，財政部應該馬上可以回答，有網友爆料，其中一位重複中獎的人是財政部的員工，如果不是，請現在好好的澄清，不要傷害財政部的信譽，有沒有財政部員工在裡面？"],["李次長慶華：這個部分我不清楚，因為我是今天早上……"],["羅委員智強：財政部的員工，你們稍微核對一下裡面的人……"],["李次長慶華：對，但是我跟委員報告，我們財政部員工也是可以參加這個抽獎活動的。"],["羅委員智強：當然，我不是、我沒有質疑財政部員工不可以參加這個抽獎，我問你的是一個事實問題啊！你不要跟我講，昨天到現在已經一天了，你連中獎的人是不是財政部員工都答不出來！"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，我真的不知道。"],["羅委員智強：你真的不知道啊？"],["李次長慶華：是，我真的不知道。"],["羅委員智強：那我們還能相信你的查證能力啊！連你的員工，中獎名單都有，財政部員工的名單也有，一核對就知道有沒有，有這麼難嗎？"],["李次長慶華：這個可不可以今天我們回去確認以後再跟委員回報，好嗎？"],["羅委員智強：好啊，拜託，沒有那麼……"],["李次長慶華：好，沒問題。"],["羅委員智強：這個真的沒那麼難啦！"],["李次長慶華：是，我馬上回去請……"],["羅委員智強：其他的事實查證有困難，需要一點時間，我可以認同啦，這個連人是不是，Yes、No，這兩個名單一對就知道了，怎麼可能不知道！"],["李次長慶華：這個部分我等一下就請我們同仁轉知主辦單位馬上查證，等一下給委員回報。"],["羅委員智強：我再請教，你們的新聞稿提到，第一期結束可以參加第二期、第三期，只要繼續參加，就有機會再中嘛，對不對？是不是？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["羅委員智強：請問這三期有多少人中獎？"],["李次長慶華：嗯，那個……"],["羅委員智強：我幫你講啦，如果我有講錯，你幫我更正。從網站上來看，三期中獎人數將近1,700人，其中1,680人是抽到50元到100元的禮券，只有19個人抽到特殊大獎，包括iPhone手機、捷安特腳踏車，可是這19個人裡面竟然有4個人可以連續兩次抽到大獎，我想請問，這個機率有多高啊？"],["李次長慶華：當然，如果用一般抽獎的機率來說，機率到底是多少我不確定，但是應該沒有那麼高的機率啦，所以我們也……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，你要看母數啦，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["羅委員智強：因為抽獎、中獎，連續中獎人數4個人，這已經是一個所謂的數字，但是要看母數。我想請教你，查了一天，第一期、第二期、第三期分別抽獎的人數是多少？這個應該有了吧？"],["李次長慶華：委員可不可以讓我……"],["羅委員智強：你們昨天的新聞稿有啦，報名註冊九萬多人，符合抽獎資格的在12萬到13.6萬人嘛，這數字有錯嗎？"],["李次長慶華：呃，第一期，對不起……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，你會後再告訴我啦！"],["李次長慶華：好，會後告訴委員，不好意思。"],["羅委員智強：如果這個數字有錯，我也是看你們的新聞稿。"],["李次長慶華：有，我們有一個統計表。"],["羅委員智強：9萬人抽獎，每個人可以抽獎三輪，第一輪有5個中獎名額，第二輪有5個中獎名額，第三輪有9個中獎名額，請問4個人中獎兩次的機率有多少？"],["李次長慶華：我不知道，可能要算一下。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你啦，我來念給你們聽好了，那機率低到什麼程度，我後來有用ChatGPT來演算，AI跟我講一個數字，我也有請統計學的教授幫我問了一下，他只跟我說這個已經小到基本上很難比擬出來啦。我跟你講，我看到ChatGPT給我的答案，你聽聽看是多少，他告訴我的答案是將近十萬億分之一啦，我想請教你，這個幾乎在生活上、統計上不可能發生的事情，為什麼人民會懷疑，原因是什麼？為什麼會懷疑？"],["李次長慶華：就是因為……"],["羅委員智強：因為在自然上、基本上是不會發生的啊！"],["李次長慶華：不可能的，對。"],["羅委員智強：那只剩下一個可能性了嘛，什麼可能性？就是舞弊啊！人民為什麼會這樣覺得，因為機率上幾乎不可能發生的，所以人民會懷疑是舞弊。我要跟次長講，這件事有多嚴重，你知道吧？你知道這件事嚴重在哪裡嗎？"],["李次長慶華：請委員指示。"],["羅委員智強：這件事攸關財政部將來辦的任何活動的公信力啊！"],["李次長慶華：是，了解。"],["羅委員智強：所以，如果今天這件幾乎在機率上不會發生的事情發生了，不是舞弊就算了，那你要交代清楚……"],["李次長慶華：會。"],["羅委員智強：為什麼機率上不會發生的事情竟然發生，而且不是舞弊，去查清楚。"],["李次長慶華：會，這部分我們已經儘量趕快，其實我們承辦單位已經在查證……"],["羅委員智強：但如果是舞弊，我跟次長講，財政部這件事情受創是非常嚴重的……"],["李次長慶華：了解。"],["羅委員智強：這個事情不可以輕易看待，謝謝您。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝，謝謝委員指導，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝李次長。","在此先作宣告：今天有委員提出臨時提案，稍後預計在上午11點處理，如屆時委員正在質詢，則於該位委員詢答完畢之後即進行處理臨時提案。","接下來請沈委員發惠發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}