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這個高達三倍之多 那我請問你如果媒體今天要報導說臺灣的缺工人數是多少 是24萬還是6.6萬"},{"start":70.053,"end":78.222,"text":"我必須澄清主總的詢問方式跟我們是不一樣的那我就問你嘛這個可能媒體會困擾啊如果今天媒體要下一個標說臺灣的缺工人數請問這個數字是要填24萬還是6.6萬"},{"start":86.997,"end":107.538,"text":"如果根據我勞動部的統計我會我會認為應該是6.6萬這比較精確我是指過去6個月真的那你要去跟主席總部說你的數據是錯了麻煩你依照我勞動部的6.6萬我們也要跟主總溝通這件事就是我們其實已經在跟他溝通就是因為他詢問的是職缺數"},{"start":108.319,"end":108.9,"text":"但是部長你知道嗎從去年112年這個主計數的統計是23萬的缺工數"},{"start":126.417,"end":142.983,"text":"到現在第二季是超過24萬的缺工數這個趨勢根本就沒有改變如果按照部長剛剛的說法應該是會大幅的改善才對但是如果他有補足人不可能他現在開出來的缺工數還是達到24萬"},{"start":144.944,"end":168.263,"text":"我覺得這個是一個最根本的就是說政府的統計數據不能有兩個數字讓民眾搞不清楚那另外一個我要強調的是誠實的面對問題才能解決問題我可不可以就是再補充一下就是為什麼我會做這個調查這也是勞動部第一次自己做缺工統計調查因為我是避免誤判"},{"start":169.364,"end":171.045,"text":"所以你說全台灣真正找不到人的缺工的數據只有6.6萬"},{"start":199.572,"end":216.371,"text":"現在目前目前是6.6萬然後你是每一家企業去調查我們調查4000家企業那能代表全部嗎那當然它是有一個樣本數的限制啦那這樣子你這個6.6萬的代表性是什麼"},{"start":217.892,"end":218.592,"text":"是,我們是針對所有的行業,抽樣的"},{"start":239.104,"end":242.007,"text":"我國全時職位缺工概況：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會"},{"start":255.1,"end":278.915,"text":"事實上24萬跟6.6萬6.6萬也不少啦6.6萬也不少只是24萬是一個就是說它是比較定義不精確的數字這樣我會很難做決策好本席要求這個勞動部你們要做出一個檢討你們跟主席總署就是全台灣只需要一個真相跟一個數據我們不需要兩個數據到底台灣的缺工是24萬還是是你講的6.6萬你們兩個單位"},{"start":282.757,"end":287.262,"text":"可不可以在這個一個月之內把你們的統計數據就頂掉未來發布的臺灣的缺工數據不應該是勞動部講勞動部的主計處講主計處這樣可以嗎一個月之內你們整合出一個版本好不好另外一個我要檢視你們的專案的成效"},{"start":301.095,"end":327.885,"text":"就是你有一個役後改善缺工擴大就業方案你們從112年5月一直到今年的6月30日為止然後你們的事辦要投入10億促進2萬名的這個勞工就業但是這個你們提供的資料你們自己真正的合法人數才1078人如果占2萬人的裡面你的達成率大概是6%"},{"start":329.145,"end":358.272,"text":"就是這個部分成效其實很不好那這個部長可以告訴大家為什麼嗎你明明編了10億也要想要給大家要去改善這個億後的缺工的情況但是改善下來的結果特別是針對旅宿餐飲業那為什麼改善下來的成效這麼差是委員這個其實就是針對旅宿餐飲是他們現在缺工還很嚴重啊你明明有方案啊那為什麼就是沒有辦法銜接上"},{"start":360.513,"end":370.008,"text":"對,因為這個你們檢討的結果是什麼?到底問題出在哪?我想業者的期待他們都希望更便宜"},{"start":371.588,"end":399.887,"text":"對可是對國人的就業期待都希望薪資要合理這個就是兩個之間永恆的拔河跟落差所以他們達不到你們的獎勵標準或是你的誘因不足他也不想來沒有我誘因足可是他不想開那個價錢請人啊他一直希望更便宜這就是為什麼那你們要怎麼檢討跟改善這就是我也要跟您報告我們有這個方案也沒有用業者還希望我開移工因為移工比這個更便宜"},{"start":401.107,"end":421.504,"text":"這就是我當今的困境可是我們能這麼做嗎是所以你的改善方案是什麼在中高齡跟婦女就業這是大宗我們在有1.4萬的中高齡跟婦女在這裡面在旅宿業裡對本期要了解的是你針對這個執行的成效不彰只有6%那請問勞動部你後續的因應"},{"start":424.326,"end":430.211,"text":"我國全時職位缺工概況：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期"},{"start":448.266,"end":449.987,"text":"八成根本沒有參與過這一個的徵採活動你實際的核發數從110年到112年總共只有152人而且聽說已經停辦"},{"start":461.597,"end":485.278,"text":"委員這個什麼時候就結束了這個方案結束了就是成效不佳嘛結束了是是是阿所以去年112年我們開了一萬兩千的營建業移工所以你就是用移工來替代了就是說本國的部分沒有辦法了所以你就不要再推動了嘛對不對就是就是用移工替代了是好那"},{"start":486.264,"end":496.169,"text":"今天這個招委牌這樣的一個專案我想我們要討論的就是這些缺工的問題到底應該要怎麼改善那本期就要求剛剛我講的你疫後的這一個編了10億要找2萬人結果只有6%1000多人"},{"start":502.534,"end":527.602,"text":"﹗"},{"start":527.942,"end":528.262,"text":"王育敏"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:50:43+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:50:44.568500+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-30T09:50:44.568500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:50:46.137000+08:00","text":"請何部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:50:46.137000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:50:47.705500+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:50:47.705500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:50:49.274000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:50:49.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:50:49.694000+08:00","text":"我請問你，你覺得臺灣缺工問題嚴不嚴重？","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:50:49.694000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:50:50.694000+08:00","text":"當然，我們就是審慎面對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:50:50.694000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:50:51.694000+08:00","text":"你認為嚴不嚴重？","quality":0},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:50:51.694000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:50:52.694000+08:00","text":"社會上……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:50:49.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:50:50.475000+08:00","text":"那我問你，我們臺灣現在缺工的人數是多少？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:51:14.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:51:24.722000+08:00","text":"在今年7月底，就是今天發布給委員會的報告裡面，我們現在真正空缺6個月找不到人的就是6.6萬人，在我們的勞動部統計……","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:51:25.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:51:29.726000+08:00","text":"我提供你另外一個數據，就是我們現在開缺出來的數據，臺灣缺工是超過24萬人，這個也是統計報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:51:29.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:51:29.846000+08:00","text":"這是主總的統計。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:51:29.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:51:43.961000+08:00","text":"對，你們的數據跟主計總處的數據落差非常大，高達3倍之多。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:51:44.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:51:49.669000+08:00","text":"我請問你，如果媒體今天要報導臺灣的缺工人數是多少，是24萬，還是6.6萬？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:51:53.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:51:56.978000+08:00","text":"委員，我也必須澄清，主總的詢問方式跟我們是不一樣的，主總……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:51:57.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:51:58.419000+08:00","text":"那我就問你嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:51:59.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:52:01.222000+08:00","text":"可能媒體會困擾，如果今天媒體要下一個標說臺灣的缺工人數，請問這個數字是要填24萬還是6.6萬？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:52:09.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:52:17.785000+08:00","text":"如果根據我們勞動部的統計，我會認為應該是6.6萬，這比較精確，我是指過去6個月真的都找不到人。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:52:17.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:52:23.991000+08:00","text":"那你要去跟主計總處說：你的數據是錯的，麻煩你依照我勞動部的6.6萬。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:52:23.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:52:30.538000+08:00","text":"對，我們也要跟主總溝通這件事，我們其實已經在跟它溝通，因為它詢問的是職缺數，就是你當下缺不缺，那是當下，但是它可能一下子馬上就補上來了，它是流動的，不像我這一次的調查真的是6個月找不到人。","quality":0.369},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:52:31.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:52:31.579000+08:00","text":"但是部長，你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:52:31.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:53:15.510000+08:00","text":"從去年（112）年主計總處的統計是23萬的缺工數，到現在第二季是超過24萬的缺工數，這個趨勢根本就沒有改變，如果按照部長剛剛的說法，應該是會大幅的改善才對，如果它有補足人，不可能它現在開出來的缺工數還是達到24萬，我覺得這是一個最根本的，就是說政府的統計數據不能有兩個數字，讓民眾搞不清楚。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:53:16.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:53:20.935000+08:00","text":"另外，我要強調的是，誠實的面對問題，才能解決問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:53:20.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:53:24.277000+08:00","text":"委員，我可不可以再補充一下？好。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:53:24.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:53:32.364000+08:00","text":"為什麼我會做這個調查，這也是勞動部第一次自己做缺工統計調查，我是避免誤判，因為如果照主總的24萬這個數字來講的話，會不停地要求我要開放移工，可是在對開放移工的這個問題上面，我們一直覺得必須審慎，所以我必須有精確的數字調查，我認為我這個是會比較精確的，就是這6個月真的是找不到人……","quality":0.27},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:53:32.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:53:34.045000+08:00","text":"所以你說全臺灣真正找不到人的缺工數據只有6.6萬？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:02.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:03.112000+08:00","text":"就是說現在目前這6個月……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:03.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:05.996000+08:00","text":"目前是6.6萬？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:05.996000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:06.996000+08:00","text":"對，懸缺6個月都找不到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:06.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:08.379000+08:00","text":"你是每一家企業去調查有沒有超過6個月？","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:08.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:11.682000+08:00","text":"我們調查4,000家企業。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:11.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:13.725000+08:00","text":"能代表全部嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:14.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:15.767000+08:00","text":"當然它是有一個樣本數的限制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:16.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:19.371000+08:00","text":"那這樣子你這個6.6萬的代表性是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:19.371000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:20.371000+08:00","text":"能不能說明我們臺灣整個現在就業的現況？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:20.371000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:21.371000+08:00","text":"就是說你這個數字可不可以保證它是全臺灣超過6個月找不到工作的人只有6.6萬？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:21.371000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:22.371000+08:00","text":"全臺灣各行各業，包括工業或者是服務業。","quality":0},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:20.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:21.452000+08:00","text":"是，我們是針對所有的行業。所有？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:21.452000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:26.687429+08:00","text":"抽樣的，抽樣4,000家，找樣本出來……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:26.687429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:31.922857+08:00","text":"那你這個抽樣可以代表整個群體嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:31.922857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:37.158286+08:00","text":"可以推估嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:37.158286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:42.393714+08:00","text":"是有推估母體的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:42.393714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:47.629143+08:00","text":"委員，我可以請我們處長來說明……","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:47.629143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:52.864571+08:00","text":"是可以推估母體的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:52.864571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:58.100000+08:00","text":"所以如果按照你這個數據，其實我們缺工沒有那麼嚴重。","quality":0.087},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:58.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:54:58.460000+08:00","text":"事實上……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:54:59.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:55:01.982000+08:00","text":"24萬跟6.6萬，本席覺得落差滿大的。","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:55:01.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:55:02.663000+08:00","text":"6.6萬也不少啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:55:04.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:55:10.688000+08:00","text":"只是24萬是一個比較定義不精確的數字，這樣我會很難做決策。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:55:10.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:55:21.715000+08:00","text":"好，本席要求勞動部，你們跟主計總處要做出一個檢討，全臺灣只需要一個真相跟一個數據，我們不需要兩個數據，到底臺灣的缺工是24萬，還是是你講的6.6萬？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:55:21.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:55:27.939000+08:00","text":"你們兩個單位可不可以在一個月之內，把你們的統計數據定調？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:55:28.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:55:28.800000+08:00","text":"未來發布的臺灣缺工數據，不應該是勞動部講勞動部的、主計處講主計處的，這樣可以嗎？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:55:28.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:55:29.421000+08:00","text":"一個月之內，你們整合出一個版本，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:55:29.421000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:55:30.421000+08:00","text":"好，我們會跟他們商量，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:55:29.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:56:19.187000+08:00","text":"另外，我要檢視你們專案的成效，你們有一個疫後改善缺工擴大就業方案，從112年5月一直到今年6月30號為止，然後你們的試辦要投入10億，促進兩萬名的勞工就業，但是你們提供的資料，真正的核發人數才1,078人，如果占兩萬人的裡面，你的達成率大概是6%，就是這個部分的成效其實很不好，部長可以告訴大家為什麼嗎？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:56:19.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:56:31.270000+08:00","text":"你明明編了10億要去改善疫後的缺工情況，但是改善下來的結果，特別是針對旅宿、餐飲業，為什麼改善下來的成效這麼差？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:56:32.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:56:34.970000+08:00","text":"是，委員，這個其實就是針對旅宿、餐飲、觀光業……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:56:34.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:56:41.252000+08:00","text":"是，他們現在缺工還是很嚴重，你明明有方案，為什麼就是沒有辦法銜接上？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:56:43.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:56:46.037000+08:00","text":"因為這個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:56:46.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:56:49.363000+08:00","text":"你們檢討的結果是什麼，到底問題出在哪裡？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:56:49.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:56:52.988000+08:00","text":"我想業者的期待，他們都希望更便宜……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:56:52.988000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:56:54.588000+08:00","text":"所以你們的獎勵無效？","quality":0},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:56:54.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:57:02.713000+08:00","text":"可是國人的就業期待，都希望薪資要合理，這個就是兩者之間永恆的拔河跟落差。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:57:03.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:57:07.557000+08:00","text":"所以他們達不到你們的獎勵標準，或是你的誘因不足，他也不想來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:57:07.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:57:14.061000+08:00","text":"不是，我誘因足，可是他不想開那個價錢請人，他一直希望更便宜，這就是為什麼……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:57:14.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:57:15.522000+08:00","text":"你們要怎麼檢討跟改善？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:57:16.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:57:28.671000+08:00","text":"這就是為什麼……委員，我也要跟您報告，我們有這個方案也沒有用，業者還是希望我開移工，因為移工比這個更便宜，這就是我擔心的困境，可是我們能這麼做嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:57:29.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:57:30.672000+08:00","text":"所以你的改善方案是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:57:30.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:57:38.999000+08:00","text":"事實上，中高齡跟婦女就業是大宗，我們有1.4萬的中高齡跟婦女在旅宿業裡面。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:57:38.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:57:44.504000+08:00","text":"對，本席要了解的是，你針對這個的執行成效不彰，只有6%，請問勞動部後續的因應、調整，跟改善、檢討到底是什麼？","quality":0.689},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:57:44.504000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:57:45.995000+08:00","text":"是，我們會跟交通部觀光署一起來會商，該如何……","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:57:45.995000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:57:47.486000+08:00","text":"我要求也是一個月要交你們的檢討報告。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:57:47.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:58:12.987000+08:00","text":"還有一樣也是成效很差，營建業產業缺工專案的成效，你們推動這樣的專案，結果有七成三根本不知道這個專案、八成根本沒有參與過這個徵才活動，你實際的核發數從110年到112年總共只有152人，而且聽說已經停辦了。","quality":0.465},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:58:24.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:58:25.138000+08:00","text":"委員，這個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:58:25.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:58:25.218000+08:00","text":"什麼時候停辦？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:58:27.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:58:27.700000+08:00","text":"這個方案結束了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:58:27.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:58:29.361000+08:00","text":"就是成效不佳，結束了嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:58:29.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:58:35.387000+08:00","text":"是，所以去年112年我們開了1萬2,000個營建業移工。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:58:36.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:58:43.834000+08:00","text":"所以你就是用移工來替代了，就是說本國的部分沒有辦法了，所以你就不要再推動了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:58:43.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:58:44.935000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:58:44.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:58:47.117000+08:00","text":"就是用移工替代了？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:58:47.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:58:56.188000+08:00","text":"好，今天召委排這樣的一個專案，我想我們要討論的就是這些缺工的問題到底應該要怎麼改善？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:58:57.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:58:59.149000+08:00","text":"本席就要求剛剛我講的，你疫後這個專案編了10億要找兩萬人，結果只有6%，一千多人，成效不佳，未來你的檢討、因應跟調整會是什麼？","quality":0.528},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:58:59.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:59:03.690857+08:00","text":"因為今天開這個專案，我想主要就是針對缺工的問題要有所改善嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:59:03.690857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:59:08.232714+08:00","text":"如果部長其實不同意再開放移工的話，那就要轉向去設法改善這個職場環境，然後勞動部怎麼樣去調整你的獎勵措施，從本國勞工的部分，可以再增加他的就業率，或是改善這個缺工的現象，好不好？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:59:08.232714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:59:12.774571+08:00","text":"總是要提出一個方案，而不是一直說因為移工不能開放，所以就束手無策。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:59:12.774571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:59:17.316429+08:00","text":"那就要改變啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:59:17.316429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:59:21.858286+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"何部長佩珊","start":"2024-10-30T09:59:21.858286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:59:26.400143+08:00","text":"當然，我們來跟交通部一起會商，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-30T09:59:26.400143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:59:30.942000+08:00","text":"好，要提一個具體方案，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-30T09:59:30.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-30T09:59:31.242000+08:00","text":"謝謝王育敏委員。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-30T09:59:31.742000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-30T09:59:34.884857+08:00","text":"接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":331,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時50分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。我請問你，你覺得臺灣缺工問題嚴不嚴重？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，我們就是審慎面對。"],["王委員育敏：你認為嚴不嚴重？"],["何部長佩珊：社會上……"],["王委員育敏：那我問你，我們臺灣現在缺工的人數是多少？"],["何部長佩珊：在今年7月底，就是今天發布給委員會的報告裡面，我們現在真正空缺6個月找不到人的就是6.6萬人，在我們的勞動部統計……"],["王委員育敏：我提供你另外一個數據，就是我們現在開缺出來的數據，臺灣缺工是超過24萬人，這個也是統計報告。"],["何部長佩珊：這是主總的統計。"],["王委員育敏：對，你們的數據跟主計總處的數據落差非常大，高達3倍之多。我請問你，如果媒體今天要報導臺灣的缺工人數是多少，是24萬，還是6.6萬？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我也必須澄清，主總的詢問方式跟我們是不一樣的，主總……"],["王委員育敏：那我就問你嘛！可能媒體會困擾，如果今天媒體要下一個標說臺灣的缺工人數，請問這個數字是要填24萬還是6.6萬？"],["何部長佩珊：如果根據我們勞動部的統計，我會認為應該是6.6萬，這比較精確，我是指過去6個月真的都找不到人。"],["王委員育敏：那你要去跟主計總處說：你的數據是錯的，麻煩你依照我勞動部的6.6萬。"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們也要跟主總溝通這件事，我們其實已經在跟它溝通，因為它詢問的是職缺數，就是你當下缺不缺，那是當下，但是它可能一下子馬上就補上來了，它是流動的，不像我這一次的調查真的是6個月找不到人。"],["王委員育敏：但是部長，你知道嗎？從去年（112）年主計總處的統計是23萬的缺工數，到現在第二季是超過24萬的缺工數，這個趨勢根本就沒有改變，如果按照部長剛剛的說法，應該是會大幅的改善才對，如果它有補足人，不可能它現在開出來的缺工數還是達到24萬，我覺得這是一個最根本的，就是說政府的統計數據不能有兩個數字，讓民眾搞不清楚。另外，我要強調的是，誠實的面對問題，才能解決問題。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我可不可以再補充一下？"],["王委員育敏：好。"],["何部長佩珊：為什麼我會做這個調查，這也是勞動部第一次自己做缺工統計調查，我是避免誤判，因為如果照主總的24萬這個數字來講的話，會不停地要求我要開放移工，可是在對開放移工的這個問題上面，我們一直覺得必須審慎，所以我必須有精確的數字調查，我認為我這個是會比較精確的，就是這6個月真的是找不到人……"],["王委員育敏：所以你說全臺灣真正找不到人的缺工數據只有6.6萬？"],["何部長佩珊：就是說現在目前這6個月……"],["王委員育敏：目前是6.6萬？"],["何部長佩珊：對，懸缺6個月都找不到。"],["王委員育敏：你是每一家企業去調查有沒有超過6個月？"],["何部長佩珊：我們調查4,000家企業。"],["王委員育敏：能代表全部嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然它是有一個樣本數的限制。"],["王委員育敏：那這樣子你這個6.6萬的代表性是什麼？能不能說明我們臺灣整個現在就業的現況？就是說你這個數字可不可以保證它是全臺灣超過6個月找不到工作的人只有6.6萬？全臺灣各行各業，包括工業或者是服務業。"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們是針對所有的行業。"],["王委員育敏：所有？"],["何部長佩珊：抽樣的，抽樣4,000家，找樣本出來……"],["王委員育敏：那你這個抽樣可以代表整個群體嗎？可以推估嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是有推估母體的。委員，我可以請我們處長來說明……"],["王委員育敏：是可以推估母體的？所以如果按照你這個數據，其實我們缺工沒有那麼嚴重。"],["何部長佩珊：事實上……"],["王委員育敏：24萬跟6.6萬，本席覺得落差滿大的。"],["何部長佩珊：6.6萬也不少啦！只是24萬是一個比較定義不精確的數字，這樣我會很難做決策。"],["王委員育敏：好，本席要求勞動部，你們跟主計總處要做出一個檢討，全臺灣只需要一個真相跟一個數據，我們不需要兩個數據，到底臺灣的缺工是24萬，還是是你講的6.6萬？你們兩個單位可不可以在一個月之內，把你們的統計數據定調？未來發布的臺灣缺工數據，不應該是勞動部講勞動部的、主計處講主計處的，這樣可以嗎？一個月之內，你們整合出一個版本，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們會跟他們商量，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：另外，我要檢視你們專案的成效，你們有一個疫後改善缺工擴大就業方案，從112年5月一直到今年6月30號為止，然後你們的試辦要投入10億，促進兩萬名的勞工就業，但是你們提供的資料，真正的核發人數才1,078人，如果占兩萬人的裡面，你的達成率大概是6%，就是這個部分的成效其實很不好，部長可以告訴大家為什麼嗎？你明明編了10億要去改善疫後的缺工情況，但是改善下來的結果，特別是針對旅宿、餐飲業，為什麼改善下來的成效這麼差？"],["何部長佩珊：是，委員，這個其實就是針對旅宿、餐飲、觀光業……"],["王委員育敏：是，他們現在缺工還是很嚴重，你明明有方案，為什麼就是沒有辦法銜接上？"],["何部長佩珊：因為這個……"],["王委員育敏：你們檢討的結果是什麼，到底問題出在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：我想業者的期待，他們都希望更便宜……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們的獎勵無效？"],["何部長佩珊：可是國人的就業期待，都希望薪資要合理，這個就是兩者之間永恆的拔河跟落差。"],["王委員育敏：所以他們達不到你們的獎勵標準，或是你的誘因不足，他也不想來。"],["何部長佩珊：不是，我誘因足，可是他不想開那個價錢請人，他一直希望更便宜，這就是為什麼……"],["王委員育敏：你們要怎麼檢討跟改善？"],["何部長佩珊：這就是為什麼……委員，我也要跟您報告，我們有這個方案也沒有用，業者還是希望我開移工，因為移工比這個更便宜，這就是我擔心的困境，可是我們能這麼做嗎？"],["王委員育敏：所以你的改善方案是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：事實上，中高齡跟婦女就業是大宗，我們有1.4萬的中高齡跟婦女在旅宿業裡面。"],["王委員育敏：對，本席要了解的是，你針對這個的執行成效不彰，只有6%，請問勞動部後續的因應、調整，跟改善、檢討到底是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們會跟交通部觀光署一起來會商，該如何……"],["王委員育敏：我要求也是一個月要交你們的檢討報告。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["王委員育敏：還有一樣也是成效很差，營建業產業缺工專案的成效，你們推動這樣的專案，結果有七成三根本不知道這個專案、八成根本沒有參與過這個徵才活動，你實際的核發數從110年到112年總共只有152人，而且聽說已經停辦了。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個……"],["王委員育敏：什麼時候停辦？"],["何部長佩珊：這個方案結束了。"],["王委員育敏：就是成效不佳，結束了嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是，所以去年112年我們開了1萬2,000個營建業移工。"],["王委員育敏：所以你就是用移工來替代了，就是說本國的部分沒有辦法了，所以你就不要再推動了嘛！對不對？就是用移工替代了？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["王委員育敏：好，今天召委排這樣的一個專案，我想我們要討論的就是這些缺工的問題到底應該要怎麼改善？本席就要求剛剛我講的，你疫後這個專案編了10億要找兩萬人，結果只有6%，一千多人，成效不佳，未來你的檢討、因應跟調整會是什麼？因為今天開這個專案，我想主要就是針對缺工的問題要有所改善嘛！如果部長其實不同意再開放移工的話，那就要轉向去設法改善這個職場環境，然後勞動部怎麼樣去調整你的獎勵措施，從本國勞工的部分，可以再增加他的就業率，或是改善這個缺工的現象，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["王委員育敏：總是要提出一個方案，而不是一直說因為移工不能開放，所以就束手無策。那就要改變啊！好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，我們來跟交通部一起會商，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：好，要提一個具體方案，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員。接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}