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我們也很關心是請問你的配套完整了嗎各位委員報告我們在6月到9月期間我們做了體檢報告做了體檢之後我們發現了一些可以改善的地方我們也覺得有必要把這樣的一個"},{"start":301.838,"end":316.457,"text":"可以改善的地方什麼時候會定出來?請教你現在只有產品原料是歐盟的標準但是你在整個空氣污染的排放你沒有比照歐盟你比歐盟這個鬆了很多"},{"start":318.78,"end":322.423,"text":"會不會嚴謹?請教!會不會嚴謹?請告訴本席!會不會嚴謹?你現在有訂的是參考指引 對不對?什麼時候?什麼時候訂排放標準跟加嚴標準?因為你在桃園已經搞了一個烏龍選舉的時間強力推薦!"},{"start":347.492,"end":353.565,"text":"竟然我們中央經濟部的推薦書還可以再收回由桃園市政府"},{"start":355.785,"end":379.781,"text":"又把它廢除竟然我們經濟部又又把廢除不准這個政府到底邏輯出在哪裡你第一個配套還沒有完整你的相關監管的還沒有完整尤其人民最恐怖最最怕的你的空污問題在這樣的情況之下已經搞了這個烏龍本席具體監理部長你站在面前要回答我會給你回答"},{"start":381.242,"end":400.83,"text":"本席告訴你我們希望在你的法規監管都要嚴格有訂定出來的時候你才可以全面的來做這是人民最卑微的要求請做說明我想這個委員你的這個指教非常正確我們是已經有這個排放標準訂出來"},{"start":403.171,"end":415.919,"text":"是有這樣定出來的?他說要年底啊 你說排放 好啦去釐清楚啦 你們兩個不要再不同調啦好不好?好 那個環境部市長環境部市長 你說在年底會告訴大家對不對?會加嚴 會加嚴 現況當然有標準啊不是 排放標準 跟委員報告 您專心的戴耀新"},{"start":431.17,"end":451.006,"text":"我們聚焦你預計在年底會把你重研的標準定出是不是?是,我們還會再加研,我們現在預告你告訴我時間是不是在12月底以前會拿出來?是好,我們拭目以待接下來本席要請教中火中火的環評真燃氣就要拆燃煤"},{"start":451.787,"end":467.574,"text":"政府應該是如王美化部長當時所做的這個承諾,是不是?我想中火的部分,我們當然是因為減煤是我們第一目標所以我們要把燃氣趕快做起來"},{"start":469.355,"end":481.181,"text":"所以現在正在做?對現在正在做?什麼時候拆那個燃煤機組?就是燃氣要做完了以後運作無疑對,當時承諾是如此,會不會照當時王美花部長的承諾燃氣機組在現在做的運轉成型之後就拆掉我們的兩座燃煤機組就是這幾年當是不是如此?照承諾走,會不會?應該就是照承諾走"},{"start":498.09,"end":501.952,"text":"臺電董事長你要回答你告訴我時間點你告訴我時間點什麼時候拆那個機組要蓋好才能夠換這是我們承諾的委員我這樣說今天下午要開環評商團好之後要拆對不對"},{"start":518.649,"end":532.36,"text":"那個委員我先說我們現在提出來的審查是把機組留下6部來做國安備用的機組這您簡報上面提到的他不會運轉他要有特別特別的才會運轉"},{"start":536.383,"end":539.964,"text":"我們現在燃氣,我們都沒有反對喔!台南的沒有我們的十分之一,台南都反對,就不做!那台中呢?台中我們已經做囉!我們也歡迎爭氣!那你要猜沒啊?請教什麼時候猜?我們原則上就是機組要上來以後才能夠猜啦!我想說狀況就是這個樣子"},{"start":560.988,"end":561.509,"text":"那所以你告訴我本席請教我們現在承諾的那個是無然無然的世界"},{"start":576.022,"end":579.384,"text":"二零三五年請教王美娃部長答應的剛剛部長說了會照承諾我們這兩部你這兩部的燃氣機組商轉成功就是拆掉我們的一支煙燈對不對?對不對?對不對?"},{"start":606.823,"end":610.527,"text":"告訴我前任部長所說的算不算?"},{"start":625.882,"end":627.484,"text":"就我的看法我不覺得王部長當時答應了後面這些事我們政務官有我們政務官這個事情大條喔"},{"start":641.038,"end":647.7,"text":"他沒有答應後面全部都是這樣子做的我想說這要跟委員做報告請你告訴我可以討論但是不可以說這個是王美花部長就承諾了請你告訴我目前在中火在蒸汽的兩部機商轉成功會不會拆我們一支煙燈你告訴我這一點就好2026年底以前會開始拆好2026年開始拆嘛那你早講嘛那是現在的這個機制好這一定要這麼做部長對不對"},{"start":670.066,"end":670.987,"text":"好,2026年開始猜,部長是不是如此?"},{"start":679.488,"end":701.314,"text":"前二任部長是?我要瞭解一下。因為前一任的交接…答案就是照剛剛台鑒董事長說,2026年現在這兩部燃氣,我們蒸氣就是要拆煤,蒸氣就是要拆煤。你點頭,我們一定要達陣成功好不好?我們共同努力了。這點一定做到。"},{"start":704.589,"end":707.714,"text":"好 謝謝 請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":171,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（9時50分）謝謝邱委員跟我換次序，謝謝。","楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。部長了解本席非常重視中小企業，你也推動整體性的中小企業低碳化轉型，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在說會給輝達百億度，我們很高興，也就是2026年550億度，你會達陣成功，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：2026年你預計要達陣多少？"],["郭部長智輝：550億度的綠電。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席首先要請教，你的綠電來源怎麼來？"],["郭部長智輝：綠電的來源有太陽光、風力、地熱，還有區域的風力，蠻多的，包括生質能、氫能等等，綠電的定義很多。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：前任王美花部長當時所答應的是往後延，2025年原本要達到20%，他在卸任之前承認達不到，所以就延後到2026年，也說明2025年要達到綠能的部分是15%，2026年則是20%，目前的進度是不是也是如此呢？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說你有信心要達到你剛才所說的，2026年550億度的綠能，您點頭。接下來本席要請教，你認為可以達到，我們也滿心歡喜，當然我不希望你跟王美花部長一樣又跳票，所以請教你要怎麼樣分配？因為包括我們非常重視的中小企業低碳化轉型，包括了目前大企業及相關企業需要的，也包括了我們竭誠歡迎的輝達，在這樣的情況之下，你怎麼分配？哪一個為優先？怎麼分配？"],["郭部長智輝：我可不可以請能源署跟你報告？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你頭腦裡頭應該會有這些東西，因為你已經說了，你會達到，你也說百億度，既然有這個數字，要給輝達百億度，你的頭腦裡頭難道沒有中小企業嗎？沒有本土的企業嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：當然有啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請說明怎麼分配。"],["郭部長智輝：所有要做出口的、需要綠電的，我們都是經過這樣的統計來設置發電設施。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要告訴你的是，不能不給中小企業，答不答應？中小企業低碳化的轉型務必要照顧到，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是你答應的？"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席希望我們能夠達陣成功，同時在分配的時候，一定要全面照顧中小企業，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那就拭目以待。","接下來，本席要跟你討論的是固體再生燃料SRF這個議題，我們看到推動可燃廢棄資源燃料化，到目前為止，政府的配套完整了嗎？嚴格的標準跟監管的法規到位了嗎？請說明。"],["沈次長志修：我是環境部次長。我想委員關心的部分就是從製造端到使用端，針對製造端，我們會訂出產品的品質規範……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對本席的提問，你訂定嚴謹的標準跟監管的法規了嗎？"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的配套完整了嗎？因為SRF在整個製程跟燃燒發電可能產生空污，是不是會影響健康？"],["沈次長志修：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這一些都是我們非常關注的。"],["沈次長志修：是，我們也很關心。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問你的配套完整了嗎？"],["沈次長志修：我們在6月到9月期間做了體檢報告，做了體檢之後，我們發現一些可以改善的地方，也覺得有必要把這樣的一個法規管理強度提升。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可以改善的地方，什麼時候會訂出來？請教。"],["沈次長志修：我們在今年年底之前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在只有產品原料是比照歐盟的標準。"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是整個空氣污染的排放，你沒有比照歐盟，你比歐盟鬆了很多。"],["沈次長志修：報告委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會嚴謹？請教。"],["沈次長志修：可能你得到的資訊有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會嚴謹？請告訴本席。"],["沈次長志修：當然，我們是比照歐盟。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會嚴謹？"],["沈次長志修：歐盟沒有訂的，我們還比照其他國家有的標準，我們絕對會確保國人的健康。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在有訂的是參考指引，對不對？"],["沈次長志修：我們會制定排放標準，加嚴標準，去加強……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候訂排放標準跟加嚴標準？"],["沈次長志修：今年年底之前，謝謝委員關心。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你在桃園已經搞了一個烏龍，選舉的時間強力推薦，但你們中央、經濟部的推薦書竟然還可以再收回，所以桃園市政府又把它廢止，而你們經濟部竟然又撤銷桃園市政府的處分，這個政府的邏輯到底問題出在哪裡？你第一個配套還沒有完整，相關監管的還沒有完整，尤其人民最怕的是空污問題，在這樣的情況之下，已經搞了這個烏龍，本席具體建議部長，你站在他面前要回答，我會給你回答。"],["郭部長智輝：我……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席告訴你，我們希望你的法規、監管都要嚴格，有訂定出來的時候，你才可以全面地來做，這是人民最卑微的要求，請做說明。"],["郭部長智輝：我想委員的這個指教非常正確，我們是已經將這個排放標準訂出來了，是有訂出來了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他說要年底，你說排放……好啦，去釐清楚啦！你們兩個不要再不同調，好不好？好，環境部次長……"],["沈次長志修：委員，當然是有標準，我們是要加嚴，比現況標準還要加嚴，當然有標準啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：環境部次長，你說年底會告訴大家，對不對？"],["沈次長志修：會加嚴，現況當然有標準啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！所以你只有原料是比照歐盟，其他排放的部分沒有啊！"],["沈次長志修：不是，排放標準……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以……"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告，您關心的戴奧辛……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們聚焦……"],["沈次長志修：排放標準是0.1奈克，歐盟現在的標準也是這樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請教，我們聚焦，你預計在年底會把從嚴的標準訂出，是不是？"],["沈次長志修：是，我們還會再加嚴，我們現在預告階段……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我時間，是不是在12月底以前會拿出來？"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我們拭目以待。"],["沈次長志修：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請教，中火的環評，增燃氣就要拆燃煤，政府應該是如王美花部長當時所做的這個承諾，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我想中火的部分，減煤當然是我們的第一目標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們要趕快把燃氣做起來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以現在正在做？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在正在做……"],["郭部長智輝：我們要趕快……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候拆燃煤機組？"],["郭部長智輝：燃氣要做完了以後。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你們預計……"],["郭部長智輝：運作無虞的時候，當然就可以下去……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，當時的承諾是如此，會不會照當時王美花部長的承諾，燃氣機組在現在做的運轉成型之後就拆掉我們的兩座燃煤機組，就是一支煙囪，是不是如此？會不會照承諾走？"],["郭部長智輝：應該就是照承諾走。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：照承諾走喔？"],["郭部長智輝：對，實際的請台電董事長來回答一下。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，台電董事長，你要回答，你告訴我時間點。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候拆？"],["曾董事長文生：機組要蓋好才能夠換，就是說我們一定要有天然氣機組……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這個是你們承諾的。"],["曾董事長文生：委員，我這樣說，今天下午要開環評大會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，商轉好之後要拆，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，我先說，我們現在提出來的審查，是把機組留下6部來做國安備用的機組，這您簡報上面有提到，它不會運轉，它要有特別的狀況才會運轉。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不要告訴我們這個，本席請教……"],["曾董事長文生：我們是覺得……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們現在燃氣……"],["曾董事長文生：委員，這個機組要非常久以後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們都沒有反對喔！臺南的，沒有我們的十分之一，臺南都反對，就不做，那臺中呢？臺中我們已經做了，我們也歡迎增氣，那你要拆煤啊！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教什麼時候拆？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教什麼時候拆？"],["曾董事長文生：我們原則上就是機組要上來以後才能夠拆。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你們有KPI嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：我想狀況就是這個樣子。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以……"],["曾董事長文生：我想國安的這個警備機組……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我，本席請教，你們現在承諾的……"],["曾董事長文生：我們預計全部商轉要2035年，這也就依著立法院的決定來辦。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那個是無燃的世界，2035年，請教王美花部長答應的，剛剛部長說會照承諾，我們這兩部……"],["曾董事長文生：那個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你這兩部的燃氣機組商轉成功，就是拆掉我們的一支煙囪，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：楊委員，我這樣講……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：前任部長提的那個事情，是針對1、2號機的狀況。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：我們接下來是3、4、5、6號機，那是不一樣的狀況，我想……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我，前任部長的承諾算不算？"],["曾董事長文生：因為它沒有運轉，它留下來的備用機組沒有運轉。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：告訴我前任部長所說的，算不算？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，我要這樣子說明，前任部長講的事情，我們已經想盡辦法，儘量能夠讓它減少，而且我要說，它留下來備用的機組並不會一起運轉。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：告訴我，王美花部長承諾的會不會實現？如果照曾董事長說的，是跳票喔！"],["曾董事長文生：就我的看法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就你的看法？"],["曾董事長文生：我不覺得王部長當時答應了後面這一些事，我們政務官有我們政務官……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：蛤！這個事情大條了喔！"],["曾董事長文生：他沒有答應後面全部都是這樣子做的，我想這要跟委員做報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你告訴我。"],["曾董事長文生：可以討論，但是不可以說這個是王美花部長就承諾的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你告訴我，目前中火在增氣的兩部機組，商轉成功後，會不會拆掉我們一支煙囪？你告訴我這一點就好。"],["曾董事長文生：會，2026年底以前會開始拆。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，2026年開始拆，那你早點講嘛，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：那是現在的機組，可以做，這是確定的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，一定要這麼做喔！部長，對不對？來……"],["曾董事長文生：OK，這樣我了解了，委員如果要說現在這個，那確定2026年年底我們會拆。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，2026年開始拆，部長，是不是如此？前後任的部長是一致的？"],["郭部長智輝：我要了解一下。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要了解一下？"],["郭部長智輝：因為前一任的交接沒有那麼詳細。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：答案就是就照剛剛台電董事長說的，2026年現在這兩部燃氣機組，我們增氣就是要拆煤，增氣就要拆煤，你點頭，我們一定要達陣成功，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：我們共同努力啦！"],["曾董事長文生：是，好，這點一定做到。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：2026年嘛，你有答案，你不說，還說一些五四三的。"],["曾董事長文生：我以為你在問下午的事。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你讓部長亂掉，對不對？"],["主席：好，謝謝，請回座。","請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","蘇巧慧","黃國昌","羅智強","蔡易餘","王育敏","徐欣瑩","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","涂權吉","黃珊珊","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國\n對設置 SRF 發電廠之規劃評估，及設置 SRF 發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}