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對不對請時薪然後後來就變成什麼我們常常看到現在餐廳現在都是機器人在跑對不對送餐的那為什麼這是業者他自己會轉變就是說你今天要減少失業率你這些問題都沒解決的時候那業者自然會想出他一個生存的辦法對不對但是這個"},{"start":273.535,"end":281.542,"text":"時間久了時間久了就會造成我們這個失業率居高不下因為到時候都是請機器人啊比較划得來嘛我請時薪的划不來"},{"start":284.743,"end":312.184,"text":"所以我說這個缺工不是當然不等於是因為低薪的問題要對症下藥啦好不好對這個缺工的問題才有幫助就是我一直覺得缺工也不能只靠移工來解決啦對像自動化也是一個很重要的因為有很多啦就是說我們可能看製造業是改善環境嘛增加我們移工數其他服務業缺工也一樣"},{"start":313.144,"end":340.994,"text":"那健保及社會工作也很缺人那針對這個部門部長有什麼想法嗎?市委員我們其實也是針對就是我在講的你剛才講到就是各行各業裡面像醫療保健我們現在就開了醫院互佐讓橋外省中階技術人力也可以來從事就是這些我看到昨天商總有提個三項建議就是提引進移工擴大引進橋外生產"},{"start":342.254,"end":354.363,"text":"產學合作以及變形工時等方式來改善缺工那我想他要求我們呼籲說我們年底前給答案那部長什麼時候會有結論"},{"start":355.991,"end":373.964,"text":"委員其實他昨天這一些訴求我們部分都已經在處理而且事宜都已經在處理了像包括僑外生我們已經開放您也瞭解那麼我們甚至要進一步修僑外生的個人工作許可讓僑外生可以自由轉換工作所以我希望說業者也希望我們這邊盡快給答案"},{"start":381.209,"end":400.05,"text":"您是指服務業移工嗎?服務業缺工的問題也是有不同層次我今天的報告的重點就是其實連服務業裡面缺的都是中階技術人力比較缺勞資雙方希望全國來開這個缺工的會議那部長什麼時候會開?"},{"start":401.438,"end":423.935,"text":"全國聚會不是我能開的那必須我我如果有需要的話你相信政院報告了沒有嗯這因為我們這個要看政院這邊的那你反映了沒有啊還是要先看日子要看黃曆看哪一天日子比較好這個對我想政院會有他全盤的考慮是"},{"start":425.42,"end":439.714,"text":"這個有什麼全盤考慮的?這個本來就是缺工就是事實啊,要考慮什麼?該開會、該盡快解決的不是就馬上就要處理嗎?委員我們昨天是先清取我們服務業部門的這樣的朋友的意見啦,是,對。"},{"start":443.537,"end":464.848,"text":"臺灣未來9年會有378萬人要退休45個月出生率低於死亡率這種生不如死的狀況我發現15到20歲的青年失業率一直在創新高20歲到34歲的失業率也一直上升這個年齡層又是最有機會結婚生子的年齡"},{"start":465.808,"end":493.257,"text":"那現在年輕人有錢都不太願意生小孩了沒有工作更不用說啊所以針對這個部分勞動部這邊有沒有什麼因應的措施您是指青年失業嗎?是有青年失業我們推了非常多的行政措施包括投資青年就業方案那包括這個鼓勵青年的中階人力禁用這我們行政措施獎勵措施非常的多是"},{"start":494.017,"end":494.217,"text":"謝謝邱鎮軍委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":405,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時）主席好。我們一樣也請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。根據這個月勞動統計的通報，截至7月我們全國事業單位缺工數有6萬6,000個，是這樣嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：是，這是我們勞動部部內的統計。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看了一下，這是第一次採用懸缺半年才列為缺工……"],["何部長佩珊：對，這是我們的定義。"],["邱委員鎮軍：跟以往不太一樣？"],["何部長佩珊：對、對、對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼要這樣子？"],["何部長佩珊：因為這樣才能……"],["邱委員鎮軍：是比較好看還是怎麼樣？"],["何部長佩珊：不、不，不是為了數字好看。"],["邱委員鎮軍：是為了美化數字？"],["何部長佩珊：是為了精確掌握缺工真正的樣態。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也就是說他1個月沒有工作、2個月沒工作，不代表失業了？"],["何部長佩珊：這不是失業，這是針對廠商。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是缺工嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：懸缺6個月的調查，是針對廠商的調查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那2、3個月也不算啊？"],["何部長佩珊：對，那不叫缺工。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以現在是改變缺工的定義就對了？以前不是這樣嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對，缺工在一般過去像主總的調查，它是調查說你當下缺不缺、今天缺不缺，可是事實上可能馬上就可以補進來，那是一個流動性的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果2、3個月呢？為什麼要訂在6個月？"],["何部長佩珊：6個月才代表它真的是缺工。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我個人是這樣覺得啦！不論是1個月還是6個月，其實對我們業者來講，它還是缺工，對吧？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：實際的數字我希望大家還是要誠實一點，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我絕對誠實。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我再問你，明年最低工資的調幅已經訂了嘛！最低工資月薪為2萬8,590元，時薪漲至190元，不過外界還是認為這沒有辦法解決缺工的問題，反而會助長缺工，部長知不知道這為什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：其實我在最低工資調整的時候一再強調，這是保障邊際勞工，而不是解決缺工。委員，今天我的缺工調查……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你看一下這個表，我有計算過，同樣都是有健保、勞保，領時薪者只要多兼幾份差，每個月工作22天，每天工作8個小時，其實就可以領到3萬3,440元，還有8天可以運用，對照全時職位的月薪只有2萬8,590元，換算回來，每個小時只有119元，遠少於時薪。部長，我想請問一下制定這種時薪的計算，是不是鼓勵大家都要去做時薪工作，而不要做月薪？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，確實我們這次最低工資審議的時候，也有委員認為時薪的調幅……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你這樣反而讓業者都找不到工人。"],["何部長佩珊：對，那是因為有過去歷史的因素，我們在過去十年間，為了要保障……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，你不要講過去，你現在發現有問題，是不是就要改？"],["何部長佩珊：有，這一次最低工資調幅已經都把它拉齊了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有拉齊嗎？算起來還是差很多呀！"],["何部長佩珊：甚至還比較低，我們的月薪調幅是4.8%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果是你，你要領哪一種？我當然是領時薪啊，對不對？我時間比較好調配嘛，對不對？這就是現在年輕人的心態。"],["何部長佩珊：是，委員，我們儘量來、慢慢來調整。"],["邱委員鎮軍：難怪現在年輕人失業，就業率數字都一直起不來，而且你沒有辦法去解決真正的問題嘛。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再請問部長，你有沒有去外面吃飯訂餐？"],["何部長佩珊：當然是有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有沒有看到餐廳裡面有時候明明座位很多，但是他就跟你說他沒辦法接，為什麼會這樣，你知道嗎？就是因為人力不足。後來就變成什麼？我們常常看到餐廳現在都是機器人在送餐，這是業者自己設法改變，就是你今天要降低失業率，這些問題都沒解決的時候，業者自然會想出他的生存辦法。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是這個時間久了，就會造成我們的失業率居高不下，因為到時候都是用機器人，因為比較划得來，請時薪的划不來嘛。"],["何部長佩珊：不會啦，委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是真的，所以我說缺工當然不一定是因為低薪的問題，要對症下藥，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對缺工的問題才有幫助。"],["何部長佩珊：是，這就是我一直覺得缺工也不能只靠移工來解決，像自動化也是很重要的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為有很多情況，製造業是改善環境，增加移工數，服務業缺工也一樣。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：健保及社會工作也很缺人，針對這個部分，部長有什麼想法嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是，委員，您剛才講到的各行各業，像醫療保健，我們現在就開放醫院護佐讓僑外生、中階技術人力也可以來從事，這些我們都有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到昨天商總有提出三項建議，就是提引進移工、擴大僑外生產學合作以及變形工時等方式來改善缺工問題，他們呼籲在年底前給答案，部長，什麼時候會有結論？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，其實他們昨天這一些訴求，有部分事實上都已經在處理了，像僑外生，我們已經開放，您也了解，我們甚至要進一步修僑外生的個人工作許可，讓僑外生可以自由轉換雇主。"],["邱委員鎮軍：引進移工到服務業，他們還要培訓準備，業者希望我們這邊儘快給答案。"],["何部長佩珊：您是指服務業移工嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，服務業的移工。"],["何部長佩珊：服務業缺工的問題也是有不同層次，我今天報告的重點就是連服務業缺的也是中階技術人力比較多。"],["邱委員鎮軍：勞資雙方希望召開全國缺工會議，部長，什麼時候會開？"],["何部長佩珊：全國缺工會議不是我能開的，如果有需要的話，我會跟行政院報告。"],["邱委員鎮軍：報告了沒有？"],["何部長佩珊：這要看政院的想法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你反映了沒有？還是要先看黃曆，看哪一天日子比較好？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我想政院會有全盤的考慮。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個有什麼好全盤考慮的？本來缺工就是事實，要考慮什麼？該開的會、該儘快解決的，不是馬上就要處理嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們昨天是先聽取服務業朋友的意見。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那儘快啦，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：臺灣未來9年會有378萬人要退休，又有45個月出生率低於死亡率，「生不如死」，然後我發現15到20歲的青年失業率一直在創新高，20歲到34歲的失業率也一直上升，這個年齡層又是最有機會結婚生子的年齡，現在年輕人有錢都不太願意生小孩了，沒有工作就更不用說了，所以針對這個部分勞動部有沒有什麼因應的措施？"],["何部長佩珊：您是指青年失業嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，青年失業。"],["何部長佩珊：我們推了非常多的行政措施，包括投資青年就業方案、鼓勵青年的中階人力進用，我們的行政措施、獎勵措施非常多，不過確實有落差。"],["邱委員鎮軍：確實落差很大。"],["何部長佩珊：青年失業率15到24歲大概都在11%左右。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到你們做了鼓勵中高年齡再就業，怎麼樣降低青年的失業率也非常的重要，部長，我們大家一起努力，儘快提出辦法來，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員。","接下來請蘇清泉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}