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﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":267.927,"end":288.541,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":289.107,"end":301.446,"text":"這樣的一個判決意思好像是說好像有印含著繼承人他繼承了多少應該有一個分攤依比例分攤這些遺產稅這樣的意味您覺得有沒有"},{"start":302.332,"end":322.584,"text":"大法官的解釋應該是有這樣一個意思那就是一個分遺產稅的稅制但是這個姿勢體大請你們回去研議好嗎這個部分我們會研議但是也跟委員報告因為我們民情不同那我們目前在這個民法規範的遺產繼承的制度裡面並不是必須以主為準所以我們在設計的時候才會採這個並沒有說總遺產稅制不對"},{"start":325.566,"end":350.254,"text":"但是現在大法官的這個判決有這樣的意涵的時候往這個方向去研議而且很重要要開公聽會好不好會我們會來思考要不要把做這樣一個這麼重大稅制的變動好你們去研議好謝謝接下來我們請副秘書長以及兩位專門委員和副處長好所以我們從這個案例來看一下你好憲法法庭的是人民權利最後的守門人"},{"start":350.97,"end":372.76,"text":"在這個案件當中我們看到經過了訴願拜訴確定然後提出了違憲申請審查然後呢廢棄判決而且宣告法律違憲立即私下限期改正這就是憲法法庭對人民權利保障的最重要的貢獻但是如果沒有憲法法庭的判現判現行的稅務事件的救濟流程你要課稅處分"},{"start":373.988,"end":397.016,"text":"然後要經過復查、訴願、行政訴訟。如果行政訴訟、訴願決定後撤銷復查,然後原機關可以再提起,就在這邊循環。那麼請問副民長,這樣的一個循環不只對人民的一個折磨,是不是就是你們這次要新創我們的這個稅務事件審理法的主要宗旨?"},{"start":408.367,"end":424.378,"text":"所以如果沒有今天的這個修法人民只能透過憲法法庭來救濟如果有了今天的立法未來不需要走到憲法法庭人民一樣可以透過這個事件來救濟是不是這樣所以比較起原來沒有這個事件審理法我們是往前踏出了一步"},{"start":424.918,"end":452.133,"text":"好 那我們看一下你剛剛講到的處理萬年稅單的問題而且法院得自行推計課稅不需要再由機關核課強化了法院認定的一個義務而且機關做成新儲分不用再是輸入是不是這是你們的主要的一個目的報告是好 那我們等一下看齁但是呢你們剛剛提到兩個一個重點一個是司法事務官的能量不足啊因為目前呢目前我們的司法人員不具備稅務專業背景所以沒有辦法充分來協助推計課稅是不是這樣"},{"start":452.984,"end":465.649,"text":"所以你們才有要戒掉嘛,是不是?要做推計科,所以這個要非常有這個稅務審查實務經驗才可以。但是呢,我也剛剛呢,我也認同,雖然呢,該名委員對我有個人的偏見,但是我認為就是論事,的確這裡面"},{"start":468.959,"end":483.351,"text":"包括由原來的稅務機關你們去商界他的專業來幫你們做這樣的一個事件處理的審理難免有一些這個立場上的問題那未來你們如何去確保不會有這種求員兼裁判的情況"},{"start":485.097,"end":511.543,"text":"那個跟委員報告齁,類似制度在那個那個技術審查官也存在。那麼剛開始也許也有技術審查官大概已經差不多20年了。當初確實也有這樣子的﹖你說的技術審查官是智慧財產﹖後來操作這麼久齁,操作這麼久其實反而是技術審查官在在那個法院這一邊他知道是獨立審判,反而常常撤銷廢棄他們的智慧財產。"},{"start":514.163,"end":535.773,"text":"稅務上的結果方向你要說明 然後我們來看一下你們這裡提到說怎麼徵聘稅審官第25條你要借調或聆聘在原來你們有借調嘛 對不對那實務上有去聆聘嗎因為借調還是公務員稅務機關是公務員借調還是公務員他是7到9指等的專員介紹過來還是7到9指等的專員是不是這樣有沒有用過聆聘的方式"},{"start":536.593,"end":561.125,"text":"目前實務上有沒有發生?沒有。跟委員報告,當初本來有這樣的想法,但後來確實...那沒有,那就你們這個靈病既然沒有用到,有沒有需要再放進去,你們思考一下好不好,這我們會審查。好,那我們往下看。但是呢,你要到稅務機關去借掉人才啊,你看李次長在那邊眼睛瞪得很大,你要跟我掉什麼人?為什麼?我們遇到公務機關借掉啊,原機關很痛。怎麼說?假設有一群人,假設只有10個人。"},{"start":562.225,"end":584.492,"text":"你們要戒掉的人當然是戒掉裡面你們認為最專業的你們越想掉員機關越不捨得放是不是這樣那你怎麼說服這個人到你們這裡來他還是同官等啊他有沒有升遷呢他考慮他第一年的考績員機關打啊他未來兩年後戒掉起碼他再回去別人可以有機會升科長他還是當專員啊你沒有什麼方式誘因來吸引這個人讓你們戒掉"},{"start":585.165,"end":585.185,"text":"議員．鍾佳濱"},{"start":604.139,"end":608.281,"text":"這是與法符合的啦,你們可以給他比較高的加級嘛,對不對?"},{"start":608.281,"end":630.85,"text":"有的加薪,多的加級他願意來。但是問題是,好在他啊,他的機關首長,比如說李次長,我們10個人,你多2萬塊的加級,把這個人挖過去,他本來薪水6萬。你花了2萬挖過去,他得了8萬。其他的9個人,少了1個人。欸,工作更多啦,機關怎麼同意?是不是這樣?那你們對委員機關怎麼補償?下一頁。"},{"start":634.281,"end":645.116,"text":"怎麼補償?你把我最好的挖走了,我們剩下的人呢?而且我補進來的還是什麼?還是職代欸?職代說你回來我就沒工作了,我職代也很難找,有沒有想過這個問題?怎麼辦?"},{"start":647.708,"end":668.786,"text":"我告訴你,其實在學術界有一個方式,大學教授借到有義務授課,產學合作工學術有回饋金。所以通常在學界借到出去之後有返校授課的義務,而且借到單位會給原單位什麼?學術回饋金。有沒有回饋機制作為誘引請員去換同意借到?你覺得應該要不要有這個制度?"},{"start":669.691,"end":692.293,"text":"我問一下理事長,稅局的人員你管的,他們跟你的稅局接到最優秀的人,你覺得要不要給機關一些補償?當然如果有的話最好。所以另外我很快的結束,還有一個第三人提供資料的協力物,你們這裡很有很重要精神,剛剛也提到"},{"start":693.089,"end":718.67,"text":"就是我們的稅務的這個行政跟稅務的審查有一個一個是補稅一個是罰是處罰對不對那稅務的處罰那稅務人他變成是怎麼樣是變成是犯罪的犯罪人啊那你們要他自己提供資料給你們所以你們在條文當中有怎麼樣有要求他協力又以不自證己罪的調和你們就你們的結論是吧要他把資料拿出來證明他有罪嗎"},{"start":720.76,"end":723.544,"text":"我覺得這個很重要。不管最後我們討論的結果怎麼樣,我覺得"},{"start":737.608,"end":764.081,"text":"如果大家覺得納稅義務人有協力的義務但是基於不治政局的情況之下我們很難勉強他那思考一下我們打詐條例他這裡說的他說金融機關對虛擬資產的人員防詐措施的時候免除其業務上保守秘密之義務有些財稅資料不見得是當事人納稅義務人的帳冊有些是金融機關留有的往來資料他是第三人"},{"start":764.997,"end":791.603,"text":"那他就可不可以要求他有這樣的提供免除他對當事人的一個保密義務你覺得這樣子是不是比較不會讓我們去不知正己罪的衝突這個方向可不可以思考一下我們回去研究因為對當事人本身跟對第三人那可能也有一些要去檢討因為第三人來講通常其實他沒有自己有罪除非他是為被告所以他是共同被告所以他是共同協助洗錢"},{"start":792.603,"end":821.664,"text":"所以今天我覺得今天的討論包括從前面幾位委員不管他們的職員的態度如何我們就是論事我們這個新創法很重要但是要很慎重所以本席這邊也提出了一些補充的內容希望未來在我們委員會我會進一步的希望能夠更聽取更多的社會意見來做更審密的一個完備它的法制的立法您同意嗎所以你們沒有很急喔我是覺得完備的話我們寧可怎樣求好而不要求快同意嗎"},{"start":822.708,"end":823.636,"text":"好!謝謝!謝謝市長!謝謝副理事長!"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":330,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時53分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴及媒體記者女士先生。首先要先邀請財政部李次長，第二段的部分要請司法院的黃副秘書長以及人事行政總處的蔡專委和主計總處的劉副處長。首先先請李次長。"],["主席：次長請。"],["李次長慶華：委員早安。"],["鍾委員佳濱：早安。今天的第一段先請教前兩天發生的一個大事情，就是報載6歲女童繼承了1,500萬的遺產，卻要被課5,000萬的遺產稅，請問次長知道這個新聞事件嗎？"],["李次長慶華：知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，他的來源就是，在10月28號的司法院記者會，對於113年憲判字第11號判決做出的說明，這當中，我們看一下這個圖，這個圖說什麼呢？說有一個先生，他生前把股票贈與給他的配偶，但是他在不到兩年內就過世了；此外，他的配偶跟他另外的婚生子女通通都拋棄了繼承，後來查出他有一個女童，是他外面的私生女，所以他變成唯一的繼承人，因為他沒有拋棄繼承，所以合計3億2,000萬的遺產，因為他贈與的股票，在生前兩年內贈與的都算入遺產，因此核課5,000萬的遺產稅。請問次長，對於這事情有什麼看法？這樣合理嗎？"],["李次長慶華：這只能講說這是依照我們現行遺產及贈與稅法上面的規定，目前是按照現行的法律在執行的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，那你覺得現行的法律，我們看到，他留下的遺產扣掉股票，實際留下來可被繼承的遺產只有1,500萬，但是這個唯一的繼承人沒有拋棄繼承，6歲女童繼承了1,500萬之後，要繳5,000萬的遺產稅。另外，他的夫人、被繼承人的太太已經拿走了被贈與的3億股票，這個因為是在生前兩年內的，所以要併回來計算，您覺得被繼承人的配偶這樣做，還有他的其他子女拋棄繼承，這樣子公允嗎？"],["李次長慶華：他拋棄繼承是因為他自己本身的決定，這跟我們稅法是沒有相關的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是……"],["李次長慶華：但是在計算遺產的時候，可能因為這樣的行為導致最後只剩下這個6歲的小孩……"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為你們規定，他生前兩年內的贈與……"],["李次長慶華：贈與要併入遺產課稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還是要回到遺產來課稅嘛！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們看一看大法官怎麼說，憲法法庭表示，立法的目的是為租稅公平，但不能成為絞殺性的租稅。什麼是絞殺性的租稅？你認為大法官的意思是什麼？"],["李次長慶華：就是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是政府不能對人民絞殺啊！"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他繼承的遺產遠少於政府要跟他收的稅，這是絞殺，你認同憲法法庭的判決嗎？"],["李次長慶華：憲法法庭的判決，基本上我們都尊重法院的判決。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要遵守啦！"],["李次長慶華：對，我們都遵守。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。第二個，受贈配偶是繼承人，結果憲法法庭說什麼？要依比例課稅。也就是說，如果他沒有拋棄繼承，這3.2億當中，他去受贈，也是繼承了3億的股票，則這個價值要依照比例課稅，你認同嗎？"],["李次長慶華：我們會依司法院的判決來做處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。如果他們拋棄繼承了，這個受贈配偶不是繼承人，他拋棄繼承了，他就不用去負擔繼承的遺產稅了，那麼應課的遺產稅能夠轉移到對其他未拋棄繼承的繼承人去增加稅額嗎？不可以嘛！"],["李次長慶華：這個也是司法院解釋認為不可以的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我這裡有兩點要求，第一，我們目前的稅制當中，還有沒有其他由憲法法庭所形容的絞殺稅？有沒有？回去查一下，有沒有實務上繼承人所繼承的金額少於依法你們要跟他核課的稅額？請去查，可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：這個我們可以來通盤盤點一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。第二跟第三，就是我們目前是採總遺產稅的稅制，但是由憲法法庭的判決，他認為總遺產稅我們只認定遺產有這麼多總額，他們的共同繼承人要共同來承擔，依應稅額去繳稅，至於繼承人怎麼樣去繳這個稅，基本上稅務機關只要他繳了稅就好了，他們之間怎麼去分、怎麼去拿出來，你們不過問。但是大法官這樣的一個判決，意思好像有隱含著繼承人繼承了多少，應該有一個依比例分攤這些遺產稅的意味，您覺得有沒有？"],["李次長慶華：大法官的解釋應該是有這樣一個意思。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那就是一個分遺產稅的稅制，但是這個茲事體大……"],["李次長慶華：對，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請你們回去研議，好嗎？"],["李次長慶華：這個部分我們會研議，但是也跟委員報告，因為我們民情不同，目前在民法規範的遺產繼承制度裡面，並不是必須以遺囑為準……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我了解。"],["李次長慶華：所以那時候我們在設計的時候才會採這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：了解，並沒有說總遺產稅制不對，但是現在大法官的這個判決有這樣意涵的時候，往這個方向去研議，而且很重要，要開公聽會，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：會，我們會來思考要不要做這樣一個這麼重大稅制的變動，這個我們會研議辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你們去研議，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來我們請副秘書長以及兩位專門委員和副處長。"],["主席：請相關官員上臺。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你好。我們從這個案例來看一下，憲法法庭是人民權利的最後守門人，在這個案件當中，我們看到經過了訴願、敗訴確定、提出違憲聲請審查、廢棄判決，而且宣告法律違憲，立即失效，限期改正。這就是憲法法庭對人民權利保障最重要的貢獻，但是如果沒有憲法法庭的憲判，現行稅務事件的救濟流程，要課稅處分，然後要經過復查、訴願、行政訴訟，如果行政訴訟、訴願決定之後撤銷復查，原機關可以再提起，就在這邊循環。請問副秘書長，這樣的一個循環是對人民的一個折磨，這是不是就是你們這次要新創稅務行政事件審理法的主要宗旨？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，確實是，就是萬年稅單部分造成當事人民的救濟永遠沒有辦法得到一個最終的解決……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果沒有今天的修法，人民只能透過憲法法庭來救濟；如果有了今天的立法，未來不需要走到憲法法庭，人民一樣可以透過這個事件審理法來救濟，是不是這樣？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以比較起原來沒有這個事件審理法，我們是往前踏出了一步。你剛剛講到了處理萬年稅單的問題，而且法院得自行推計課稅，不需要再由機關核課，強化了法院認定的一個義務，而且機關做成的新處分不用再次訴願，這是不是你們主要的一個目的？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：報告，是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你們剛剛有提到一個重點，即司法事務官的能量不足，因為目前我們的司法人員不具備稅務專業背景，所以沒有辦法充分來協助推計課稅，是不是這樣？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：報告委員，是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們才有要借調，是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對、對、對，因為要做推計課稅，這個要非常有稅務審查實務經驗才可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛我也認同，雖然該名委員對我有個人的偏見，但是我認為就事論事，的確這裡面包括由原來的稅務機關，你們去商借他的專業來幫你們做這樣的一個事件處理的審理，難免有一些立場上的問題，未來你們如何去確保不會有這種球員兼裁判的情況？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，類似的制度在技術審查官也存在，剛開始也許有……技術審查官大概已經差不多二十年了，當初確實也有這樣子的懷疑……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你說的技審官是智慧財產……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：但是後來操作了這麼久，其實反而是技審官在法院這一邊，他知道是獨立審判，反而常常撤銷、廢棄他們智慧局本身……"],["鍾委員佳濱：實務上的結果、方向你要說明。你們這裡提到怎麼徵聘稅審官，第二十五條是借調或遴聘，原來你們有借調，對不對？那實務上有去遴聘嗎？因為借調還是公務員，稅務機關是公務員，借調還是公務員，他是7到9職等的專員，借調過來還是7到9職等的專員，是不是這樣？有沒有用過遴聘的方式？目前實務上有沒有發生？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有，跟委員報告，當初本來有這樣的想法，但後來確實沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有？這個遴聘既然你們沒有用到，有沒有需要再放進去，你們思考一下好不好？這個我們會審查。再來，你要到稅務機關去借調人才，你看李次長在那邊眼睛瞪得很大，你要跟我調什麼人？為什麼？我們遇到公務機關借調，原機關很痛，怎麼說？假設有一群人，假設這有10個人，你們要借調的人當然是借調裡面你們認為最專業的，你們越想調，原機關越不捨得放，是不是這樣？那你怎麼說服這個人到你們這裡來？他還是同官等啊，他有沒有升遷呢？他考慮到他第一年的考績原機關打啊，他未來兩年後借調，他再回去的時候，別人可以有機會升科長，他還是當專員，你們有什麼方式、誘因來吸引這個人讓你們借調？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們以往在技術審查官的時候是借調過來，我們會多給加給。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個加給是合法的嗎？我們的人總跟我們的主計處，可以這樣嗎？可以嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個當時應該都經過……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以兩位不知道今天要討論這個事情？兩位就算了，這個是於法符合的啦！你們可以給他比較高的加給，對不對？有了加薪、多了加給他願意來，但是問題是好在他啊！他的機關首長比如說李次長，我們有10個人，你多2萬塊的加給把這個人挖過去，他本來的薪水6萬，你花了2萬挖過去，他得了8萬，其他9個人少了1個人後工作更多了，機關怎麼同意？是不是這樣？那你們對原機關有什麼補償？怎麼補償？你把我最好的人挖走了，我們剩下的人？而且我補進來的還是職代，職代說你回來我就沒工作了，職代也很難找，有沒有想過這個問題？怎麼辦？我告訴你，其實在學術界有一個方式，大學教授借調有義務授課；產學合作提供學術回饋金，所以通常在學界借調出去之後有返校授課的義務，而且借調單位會給原單位什麼？學術回饋金，有沒有回饋機制作為誘因，請原機關同意借調？你覺得要不要有這個制度？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們以前確實還沒有思考到這個部分，但是我們回去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問一下李次長，稅局的人員是你管的，他們跟你的稅局借調最優秀的人，你覺得要不要給機關一些補償？"],["李次長慶華：當然如果有的話最好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有的話最好，好，可以了，謝謝。我很快的結束。另外還有一個是第三人提供資料的協力義務，你們這裡還有一個很重要的精神，剛剛也提到我們稅務的行政跟稅務的審查，一個是補稅，一個是處罰，對不對？那稅務的處罰，納稅義務人他變成是怎麼樣？變成是犯罪的犯罪人，你們要他自己提供資料給你們，所以你們在條文當中有要求他協力義務與不自證己罪的調和，你們的結論是什麼？要他把資料拿出來證明他有罪嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，目前條文的協力義務是一般的核課跟處罰都包含在內，剛才黃國昌委員也有質詢，我們回去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得這個很重要，不管最後我們討論的結果怎麼樣，我覺得如果大家覺得納稅義務人有協力的義務，但是基於不自證己罪的情況之下，我們很難勉強他，那思考一下我們打詐條例這裡面說的，金融機關、提供虛擬資產服務的人員執行本條例之防詐措施的時候，免除其業務上應保守秘密之義務。有些財稅資料不見得是當事人、納稅義務人的帳冊，有些是金融機關留有的往來資料，他是第三人，那可不可以要求他有這樣的提供，免除他對當事人的一個保密義務？你覺得這樣是不是比較不會讓我們去不自證己罪的衝突？這個方向可不可以思考一下？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們回去研議，因為對當事人本身跟對第三人，可能也有一些要去檢討，因為第三人來講，通常其實他沒有自己有罪，除非他是為被告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，除非他是共同被告、除非他是共同協助洗錢，所以我覺得今天的討論，包括從前面幾位委員，不管他們質詢的態度如何，我們就事論事，我們這個新創法很重要，但是要很慎重。所以本席這邊也提出了一些補充的內容，未來在我們委員會，我會進一步希望能夠聽取更多社會的意見，來做更縝密的、完備它的法制的立法，您同意嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：同意，謝謝委員的指教。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們沒有很急喔，我是覺得為了完備，我們寧可求好而不要求快，同意嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝次長、謝謝副秘書長。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：接下來我們請吳召委宗憲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}