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董事長你聽不懂我的意思我講的是現在當然不是衰退是現在他目前他還在"},{"start":649.511,"end":669.546,"text":"曾定丹他是我們在整個經濟狀況還OK的傳產那這些傳產他面臨的問題是當他在目前的狀況之下他的趴數是如此當然不是累進啊可是他到了某一個坡度他就會往上跳"},{"start":670.265,"end":689.922,"text":"我跟委員報告就是在電價的調整上這幾年來的調整其實狀況是大概看得到一個調整的協律沒有,董事長基本上我們最近會得到那麼多產業的一個聲音你們是不是應該要去成立一個平台"},{"start":690.723,"end":715.6,"text":"去協助所有傳產他在整個用電的狀況否則他絕對不敢去接電他要說他不敢接電的大我跟委員報告那個部長已經一再指示我們要做這件事我們會來做這件事並沒有啊並沒有啊就並沒有啊報告委員這個我們要趕快加緊速度啦我們是方向方法都有啦那我們現在就是執行力要提高"},{"start":716.62,"end":733.847,"text":"所以你這個平台都沒有出來?傳展現在就對於說．中小微企業上面我們利用這一次的數位化還有深度節能這兩個方式這個雙軸引擎下去可以幫助提高競爭力"},{"start":734.867,"end":752.014,"text":"你說的智慧化對他們來講不是數位化我們幫助他說才有辦法智慧化數位化跟智慧化你這個部分要什麼時候去達到讓他們可以管控然後第二個你說要節能"},{"start":752.894,"end":767.982,"text":"說真的要解的空間實在不大你應該去了解所有的傳產傳產的狀況他們其實每一次配合你們的所謂要一趴調整一趴調整大家是有夠辛苦的但是又要接訂單"},{"start":769.543,"end":788.687,"text":"然後又沒有辦法得到我們政府關愛的眼神你說傳產請問你們用了多少力量在關心傳產並沒有這個我們現在這個組織上面當然有調整所以我們會要求實際上面在執行力上面要看到成果我發現我會落實要求這個中小企業署跟這個產發署"},{"start":794.584,"end":807.15,"text":"實際去落實這個計畫部長一個月一個月讓我們看到你做出什麼樣的起步我不敢要求說看到成果啦起步你到底對於傳產這一個所謂輔導光這個電光這個電喔"},{"start":812.472,"end":812.712,"text":"是,是"},{"start":842.512,"end":843.893,"text":"我可以了解：陳亭妃一個月：陳亭妃那個平台先建立起來怎麼去協助所有傳產在整個所謂數位化"},{"start":859.299,"end":876.792,"text":"還有節能的部分怎麼去做處理?怎麼做處理?沒有可是你們做的節能都是那種很表面象徵的你們並沒有了解各個產業的需要這才是最嚴重的你都只是叫大家照本宣科然後從我們的電腦當中然後寫書面"},{"start":880.154,"end":901.507,"text":"用書面這不對的產業的需要每個產業別他有不同的需要還有每個產業別有不同的一個狀況是委員你講的所指導的我完全能夠了解我也是這樣要求我的部署如果一個月內沒有看到成績那我會換掉這個部署"},{"start":903.168,"end":923.253,"text":"拜託部長讓傳產有信心啊大家都覺得我們現在好像每個眼光都在我們高科技護國神山護國神山很重要可是如果沒有這些傳產單為基底台灣的經濟也沒有辦法穩住啊謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":532,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時41分）謝謝召委，我們請部長還有水利署賴署長。"],["主席：請郭部長還有賴署長。"],["郭部長智輝：陳委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長好。部長，針對57年來首個11月登陸的秋颱，我們的防災準備就位了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們經濟部大概開過兩次準備會議了。"],["陳委員亭妃：你認為都準備好了嗎？這是57年來首個11月登陸的秋颱。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，水跟電應該都準備好。"],["陳委員亭妃：水跟電都沒有問題了。好，水的部分，從地方到中央的責任，我們都劃分清楚了嗎？比方說誰要負責什麼。"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請水利署長來跟你報告？"],["賴署長建信：這個部分都已經有明確的分工，而且我們在禮拜一的時候，都已跟地方政府產生橫向的聯繫。"],["陳委員亭妃：確定嗎？"],["賴署長建信：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們都在基層，署長你也很清楚，只要是有颱風，我們幾乎都在基層跑，我常常也都直接跟署長要求說，哪邊需要來做協助，然後我們的抽水機應該怎麼去配置、怎麼去幫忙，我相信署長應該接過很多通我的電話，包括第六河川局等等，所以當在基層跑的時候，我們發現一個問題，從凱米颱風來的時候，當時候也是一瞬間完全風雲變色，所以第一線所有抽水機的調度，地方跟中央在配置上該怎麼分工？"],["賴署長建信：第一個部分，地方當然擁有它的抽水機，除此之外，我們中央也會有，我在禮拜一的時候也跟我們第六河川分署……"],["陳委員亭妃：當然地方跟中央都要有啊！可是我為什麼會用這個問題來質詢署長，就地方的權責跟中央的權責，還有整個大排、中排、小排，那個系統是不一樣的；抽水機有小台、有中台、有大台，可是你知道嗎？就我們在凱米颱風第一線的經驗，是我們根本調不到抽水機啊！為什麼調不到抽水機？因為都被搶光，然後排水系統的部分，我們好不容易跟中央調到抽水機，結果太大了，那個孔裝不進去啊！所以我一直在說，地方跟中央在權責上，在第一時間是不是可以救急？我們的小排、中排、大排，整個抽水管路的大小口徑，是不是能夠符合我們抽水機的需求？誰在做這個調度？誰在做這個分配？"],["賴署長建信：我們中央應變中心都會有一個統一的調度，凱米的時候確實因為災情相當的嚴峻，所以我們從全國各地調抽水機到南部去、到地方去，但是這些的數量跟尺寸的部分，我們在動員之前，會跟地方去確認需求，但是有時候在災點的回報上，它只有回報說，就它的淹水需要一個抽水機，所以這個部分我們還是需要時間，包括抽水機什麼時候會到、什麼尺寸會到，這個我們會再次的確認。"],["陳委員亭妃：誰在做這個掌控？之前的凱米就已經發生這個狀態了，我為什麼一直強調，這是57年來首個11月登陸的秋颱，它的狀況有可能會更慘，而且瞬間的影響會更大，所以我們怎麼樣記取過去從凱米得到的教訓，並以此做調合，如第一時間抽水機誰在掌控？第二，第一線的口徑為何？如果口徑沒有處理好，就算運到現場，也是浪費人力、浪費精力。甚至如果需要在第一時間過去的話是不是可以救急，又能得到比較萬全的協助？今天如果把大的抽水機運到現場卻不能用，不僅浪費時間，也浪費了第一時間可以預防的狀態？"],["賴署長建信：是，謝謝委員提點。這些部分我們在凱米之後都進行了相關的改善工作。中央應變中心在今天上午5點30分已經一級開設；至於抽水機的調度、包括管線部分，以及如何避免康芮颱風對我們造成比較嚴重的威脅，我們都有盤點。除此之外，現在抽水機預布的內水熱點部分，也參考了過去凱米淹水的點，但不會採取跟凱米之前一樣的作法，我們會再精進……"],["陳委員亭妃：凱米的瞬間雨量從百年洪水位變成兩百年洪水位，但從凱米到現在，馬上就改變所有的抽水系統或排水系統嗎？那是不可能的！所以我們只能用救急的方式準備好、備位好，也就是抽水系統如何能在第一時間達到效果……"],["賴署長建信：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：這才是我們要的！所以拜託署長，再盤整一下凱米來襲時沒有辦法到位的問題，這不只中央，地方也要拉緊神經。我剛剛問中央、地方的權責劃分好了嗎？你們很用心在做，但如果地方鬆懈不管，也是沒有用啊！"],["賴署長建信：我們在今天的應變會議裡會再通知地方加強。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個部分再拜託一下！特別是防災應變中心裡，中央跟地方的權責為何？在應急、救急的調度怎麼去分工？怎麼給最有效的訊息跟資訊？這很重要。如果有資訊落差，再怎麼調度都沒用，就算調了也不行！所以資訊不能有落差，這是我非常強調的一點。"],["賴署長建信：謝謝委員指導。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我們在第一線的調度發生問題，以致於調到現場的抽水機孔口徑太大，排水孔太小，進不了排水孔，這就是資訊落差！拜託這部分一定要嚴防，不要再有凱米來襲時的狀況發生！這個再拜託，因為現在只能救急。"],["賴署長建信：今天在應變中心會再重新盤點。"],["陳委員亭妃：再拜託署長。","第二個，有關傳統產業電費暴增的問題，在電價漲了之後，雖然有分離峰時間、半尖峰時間與尖峰時間，可是傳產在這一波計算下來，只要是用電大戶，級距就是加倍，可能從7%到14%。可是現在傳產發生一個問題，他們說：委員，你叫我們要拚經濟，叫我們要去拿訂單，我們訂單拿得越多、產量越多，我們的用電量就越多，結果級距用跳的，兩倍跳！請問兩倍跳之後，可以再回過頭來要求增加訂單成本嗎？不行啊，不能啊！所以他說，訂單拿越多賠越多，因為原本給的價格就是這樣！但是當台電再往上攀升、甚至加倍循環的價格時，他也不能回饋到原始價格，以致所有的傳統產業說，現在是逼我們到這裡就好，不要再增加訂單了，不要再搶訂單了？我這幾天聽到傳產業者這樣的回應，我嚇到了！所以我去調了這一次電價調漲後的情形，發現確實是這個狀況。可是我們問台電，台電說沒有，說有離峰時間、半尖峰時間與尖峰時間，他們可以依照他們的數據……但傳產是24小時，傳產都是24小時輪三班。過去我們的傳統產業是拿著一卡皮箱跑天下，他們是這樣拚經濟與時間賽跑的，因此，所謂的離峰時間、半尖峰時間跟尖峰時間，對他們來講一點幫助都沒有！現在他們面臨的是：要接訂單嗎？因為接越多賠越多，而且電價的級距是用跳的，是加倍的，這怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，電價是由電價審議委員所決定的，至於提供資料……我請台電董事長來向委員報告，好不好？"],["陳委員亭妃：來，請董事長。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，7%、14%不是累進的，這是第一件事；第二件事跟委員報告，要衰退的才會有7%緩漲，但這也是隨著景氣復甦，他還是會……"],["陳委員亭妃：不是，董事長，你聽不懂我的意思。我講的是現在，所以現在當然沒衰退，而且現在、目前還在增加訂單，這是經濟狀況還OK的傳產。但這些傳產所面臨的問題是：在目前的狀況之下用電趴數是如此，也當然不是累進的，但到了某一個坡度後就會往上跳！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，在電價調整上，這幾年來的調整其實大概看得到調整的斜率……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有，董事長……"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得這個斜率是存在的……"],["陳委員亭妃：我們最近聽到那麼多產業的聲音，你們是不是應該要成立一個平臺以協助傳產的用電？否則他們絕對不敢接單，他說不敢接訂單，因為接越多虧損越多！"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，部長一再指示我們要做這件事，所以我們會來做這件事……"],["陳委員亭妃：並沒有！並沒有啊！就並沒有啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們要趕快加緊速度，我們的方向、方法都有，現在就是執行力要提高。"],["陳委員亭妃：可是你連平臺都沒有出來？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在中小……"],["陳委員亭妃：現在傳產對於……"],["郭部長智輝：我們在中小微企業上利用這一次的數位化，還有深度節能這兩個方式、雙軸引擎下去，可以幫助他們提高競爭力……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，你說的智慧化對他們來講……"],["郭部長智輝：不是，是數位化。"],["陳委員亭妃：數位化……"],["郭部長智輝：我們幫助他，之後才有辦法智慧化。"],["陳委員亭妃：數位化跟智慧化這部分要什麼時候達到，讓他們可以管控？第二個，你說要節能，說真的，節能的空間實在不大，所以你應該去了解所有傳產的狀況。其實傳產每一次配合你們所謂的一趴調整、一趴調整，大家真的很辛苦，因為他們又要接訂單，又沒有辦法得到政府關愛的眼神！請問你們用了多少力量在關心傳產？並沒有！"],["郭部長智輝：我們在組織上有調整，所以我們要求在實際面上、在執行力上要看到成果。我發現……"],["陳委員亭妃：多久？要怎麼看到成果？"],["郭部長智輝：我會要求中小企業署與產發署實際落實計畫……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，一個月？一個月讓我們看到你做出什麼樣的起步？我不敢要求能看到成果，但至少有起步。也就是你對傳產在用電方面的輔導，看怎麼讓他們安心？他們說：今天我該被漲的，OK。可是當我要進入下一個階段去搶訂單時，我會害怕，我會擔心！因為我搶了訂單後整個運作會增加；運作增加，用電量就會增加，這樣電費會增加，但我又不可能反饋到原始的價格當中，這樣就是做越多賠越多！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我可以瞭解……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以這個部分該怎麼做？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你所指教的我都可以了解，所以我回去以後，你說的一個月裡面……"],["陳委員亭妃：一個月！"],["郭部長智輝：我要求他們兩個……"],["陳委員亭妃：那個平臺先建立起來，怎麼去協助所有傳產在整體所謂數位化還有節能的部分做處理。"],["郭部長智輝：先從節能開始做，因為現在是關於電費……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有，可是你們做的節能都是那種很表面、象徵的，你們並沒有了解各個產業的需要，這才是最嚴重的！"],["郭部長智輝：不會！"],["陳委員亭妃：你都只是叫大家照本宣科，然後從我們的電腦當中寫書面、用書面，這不對的！關於產業的需要，每個產業別有不同的需要，還有每個產業別有不同的狀況。"],["郭部長智輝：是，委員你講的、所指導的我完全能夠了解，我也是這樣要求我的部屬，如果一個月內沒有看到成績，那我會換掉這個部屬。"],["陳委員亭妃：拜託部長，讓傳產有信心啦！"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：大家都覺得我們現在好像每個眼光都在高科技、護國神山，護國神山很重要，可是如果沒有這些傳產當為基底，臺灣的經濟也沒有辦法穩住啦！謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","休息5分鐘。","休息（10時56分）","繼續開會（11時1分）"],["主席：繼續開會。請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","蘇巧慧","黃國昌","羅智強","蔡易餘","王育敏","徐欣瑩","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","涂權吉","黃珊珊","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國\n對設置 SRF 發電廠之規劃評估，及設置 SRF 發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}