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11:13:29","會議時間":"2024-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國對設置SRF發電廠之規劃評估，及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.81971875,"end":2.0222187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.2878437500000004,"end":5.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.90971875,"end":23.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.832843750000002,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.60034375,"end":29.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.317218750000002,"end":31.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.127218750000004,"end":33.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.05534375,"end":33.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.62909375,"end":35.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.29534375,"end":39.518468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.41346875,"end":36.987218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.830968750000004,"end":39.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.518468750000004,"end":39.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.53534375,"end":39.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.75471875,"end":42.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.12971875,"end":44.040968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.344718750000006,"end":45.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.76221875,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.048468750000005,"end":51.752843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.07346875,"end":52.883468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.93409375,"end":53.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.469718750000006,"end":56.579093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.962843750000005,"end":58.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.39721875,"end":62.603468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.430968750000005,"end":60.46034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.447218750000005,"end":63.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.24034375000001,"end":65.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.45096875,"end":66.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.53534375000001,"end":66.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.78846875,"end":67.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.46346875,"end":67.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.48034375,"end":67.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.07096875,"end":70.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.78784375000001,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.82471875,"end":78.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.33034375000001,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.05534375,"end":94.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.23971875000001,"end":102.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.09096875,"end":103.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.72346875000001,"end":106.00596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.54596875,"end":109.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.51596875000001,"end":111.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.08534375,"end":112.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.48596875000001,"end":112.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.77284375,"end":112.89096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.89096875000001,"end":113.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.65034375,"end":117.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.47659375,"end":120.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.53534375000001,"end":125.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.95221875000001,"end":127.25159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.31909375000001,"end":128.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.92221875,"end":129.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.87971875,"end":139.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.87409375000001,"end":140.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.92034375,"end":143.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.00034375,"end":145.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.66221875000002,"end":153.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.17971875,"end":156.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.00221875,"end":158.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.67284375,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.38534375,"end":163.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.39346875,"end":165.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.52409375000002,"end":176.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.15096875,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.33909375000002,"end":200.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.32034375,"end":203.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.35346875000002,"end":208.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.35596875000002,"end":215.71034375000002},{"speaker"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有啊是不是那這一次颱風來的時候會不會發生像上一次有可能潰堤的情況呢?我們做最好的這個準備嘛因應這個最壞的狀況那對於相關的不管是"},{"start":130.936,"end":151.326,"text":"在河川內的就是說海堤的就是堤防以及相關的區域治水有沒有辦法協助長化縣那當然有啊有啊系統性的我們區域排水總共是26億那還加上治理的還加上了整個計畫26家26家幾億26家8億有沒有辦法處理"},{"start":158.7,"end":187.631,"text":"我們現在都已經開始在進行設計之中了已經在設計了嗎對希望經濟部可以大力的協助因為畢竟到時候如果淹水了可能所有的產業設施很多委員所關心的不管是產業的問題不管是農業的問題都會發生非常重大的損失我希望經濟部可以做好準備可以嗎"},{"start":188.651,"end":208.268,"text":"這個部長多次的叮嚀除了委員說明了之外對於比如說弱勢的地方不可中斷的營運不可中斷的地方我們都已經在加強在做處理這裡面包括抽水機的這個調度還有治理的工作好 謝謝喔 謝謝署長我現在想要請台電"},{"start":215.333,"end":219.428,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":223.777,"end":227.919,"text":"現在我們台灣全年度的用電是2765億度台積電一家就用了247.75度佔了大概是8%那整個半導體呢佔多少%你應該知道吧應該是12%"},{"start":249.588,"end":249.708,"text":"是的。是的。"},{"start":274.195,"end":281.191,"text":"那剩下來的只有4%那4%裡面我們中小企業可以用到幾%?"},{"start":284.127,"end":310.033,"text":"我們現在是看這樣子啦就是說到底要用綠我們這個是比例啦全國發電的比例大概16%是綠電啦但是用綠電的人大概需要用綠電的產生除了半導體以外其他的中小企業哪一些需要產生綠電 團產也可能需要啊如果未來他們要出口他們就需要綠電了這怎麼處理"},{"start":312.033,"end":340.863,"text":"我們當然就是統計他們需要需求量然後幫助他們第一個可以買到綠電第二個幫助他們能夠節能又能夠減碳我想剛才也有很多的委員就這個節能減碳這個問題大家在討論你知道你在提倡的是ASCO就是能夠深度節能的部分那目前中小企業來共同來做這個深度節能你們經濟部協助了多少"},{"start":341.243,"end":356.861,"text":"那但是未來最大的情況就是這4%除了高科技產業所用的這12%的綠電剩下的4%的綠電你怎麼樣子能夠給中小企業以及你們未來"},{"start":357.802,"end":362.508,"text":"我們現在綠電的就是從發電的部分來看就是最快速的方法就是從風力"},{"start":378.266,"end":392.53,"text":"然後太陽能再來水利再來就是地熱第三生殖能我們有5、6種方式可以再提高綠電的這個量現在都是同時在進行中我們預計是這樣子本來是2025年底要能夠達到這個20%但是現在因為過去的一些總統原因那delay到2026年的11月可以達標那麼就綠電來講"},{"start":407.996,"end":419.673,"text":"2026年的這個年底的時候我們大概可以發到550億度所以這個這樣子的一個量能我們其實是可以滿足到2030年"},{"start":421.533,"end":447.727,"text":"那我想請問為什麼不用核電那所謂的原本的核電跟你所謂的新核能有什麼差別?報告委員我想你也是非常清楚這個核電是潔淨的能源對減碳是有幫助的但是核電不是綠電我知道我們現在目前2030年之前努力的方向是趕快讓需要綠電的人滿足它"},{"start":448.851,"end":449.191,"text":"對,我問你的是"},{"start":476.501,"end":498.758,"text":"現在所謂的核電跟新核能有什麼差異性那新核能它增加的成本更高那對於我們整體的減碳有什麼幫助是 報告委員我想這個命題我們都是可以討論的所以還在討論是不是我想應該是在討論因為我們如果確定"},{"start":501.396,"end":524.356,"text":"這個安全沒有問題第二個核廢料是可以處理的第三個全民有共識那這個三個前提都是可以解開的那我們目前碰到的問題是這樣子我想您指導的這個核三的問題或者核二的問題這個我們現在在這個法令上面他還是沒有辦法我們陛下先把這個法解開以後"},{"start":525.469,"end":546.425,"text":"響鐘﹗"},{"start":546.425,"end":549.267,"text":"那不用核電的情況下是不是就增加了火力的發電?"},{"start":567.017,"end":591.423,"text":"沒有啊,不一定,我剛才講過了,不增加的話,我們有很多的方法有啊,你現在台中的那個,現在要今天下午要審議的那個燃氣機組他就超過了原本的火力發電的容量啊,是不是?那不就是在增加嗎?那個用電量是可以增加,然後減碳量可以大幅降低"},{"start":592.194,"end":599.239,"text":"用電量增加,那你不是在增加火力發電嗎?你不就在增加火力發電嗎?是不是?只是把它從燃煤變成燃氣嘛,是不是?不是,我們現在如果"},{"start":608.735,"end":608.935,"text":"火力是綠電嗎?"},{"start":634.295,"end":652.977,"text":"火力當然不是綠電火力也不是乾淨的能源對不對所以我們將來會用氫來捕捉這個碳用氫能來捕捉碳這個我們也在研究開發一方面我們加快那個綠能的開發所以我的綠能是在"},{"start":653.758,"end":673.826,"text":"在我們這個時候不斷的在加發太陽能光電或者是這個水力發電或地熱的發電或者是風力的發電那風力除了陸域的風電以外我們還有這個離岸的風電那這個部分其實是我認為可以得到更大的這個support如果大家"},{"start":675.286,"end":700.074,"text":"我相信就是大家在看了這台積電它用那麼多電半導體用那麼多電我們中小微的企業也需要做這麼多電臺灣就是一個以出口為導向以世界為我們的市場的這樣的一個國家的話我們必須要滿足所有企業大中小微它需要用的綠電我都要滿足它所以"},{"start":701.355,"end":703.779,"text":"將來的話2050年我希望我的綠電能夠到達70%好,謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":604,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時1分）謝謝主席，我想請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有水利署署長。"],["主席：請賴署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["主席：賴署長還沒回來，去找他一下，好嗎？"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長，你知道颱風要來了吧？這跟你們水利署有非常大的關係，你知道嗎？你應該知道吧？署長怎麼不見了，慘了，你看！你署長落跑了！是不是因為颱風太大了，署長都落跑了，災情會不會像上次一樣嚴重？"],["郭部長智輝：署長來了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你不講是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：他去上洗手間。"],["謝委員衣鳯：署長，你落跑了，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：他去關心災情。"],["謝委員衣鳯：颱風太大，你落跑了，是不是？"],["賴署長建信：委員，我們對於康芮颱風的部分，現在正在加強準備，今天也跟縣長通過電話，針對於之前凱米颱風彰化縣境內所有淹水的問題，他現在已經開始預部了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊！對於我們大城地區、和美地區、鹿港地區上一次淹水的情況，這一次會不會再次發生？"],["賴署長建信：屬於縣政府所管的這個部分，他們已經在加強準備，然後我們對於縣政府未來治理的需求……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那四河局管的呢？"],["賴署長建信：四河局管的部分當然我們禮拜一就已經開始做防颱的準備了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有沒有開始做了？"],["賴署長建信：一定啊！有啊！"],["謝委員衣鳯：那這一次颱風來的時候，會不會發生像上一次有可能潰堤的情況呢？"],["賴署長建信：我們做最好的準備，因應最壞的狀況。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對於相關的，不管是在河川內的，即海堤的堤防，以及相關的區域治水，有沒有辦法協助彰化縣？"],["賴署長建信：那當然有啊！有系統性的治水方式……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們區域排水總共是26億，還加上治理的整個計畫，26加8億，有沒有辦法處理？"],["賴署長建信：我們現在都已經開始在進行設計之中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：已經在設計了嗎？"],["賴署長建信：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：希望經濟部可以大力的協助，因為畢竟到時候如果淹水了，可能所有的產業設施、很多委員所關心的，不管是產業的問題，不管是農業的問題都會發生非常重大的損失，我希望經濟部可以做好準備，可以嗎？"],["賴署長建信：這個部長多次的叮嚀，除了委員說明的部分之外，對於比如說弱勢的地方、營運不可中斷的地方，我們都已經在加強處理，包括抽水機的調度還有治理的工作。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝署長。我現在想要請台電。"],["曾董事長文生：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長，我問你。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在我們臺灣全年度的用電是2,765億度，台積電一家就用了247.75億度，占了大概是8%，那整個半導體占多少%？你應該知道吧？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是12%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想請教，如果半導體的用電占了12%，他們的用電大部分都是綠電，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：大部分都是。那我們臺灣整體的綠電目前到達幾%？16%？上一次你們說16%，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：剩下來的只有4%，那4%裡面，我們中小企業可以用到幾%？"],["郭部長智輝：我們這個是比例，全國發電的比例大概16%是綠電，但是需要用綠電的產業除了半導體以外，其他的中小企業哪一些需要綠電……"],["謝委員衣鳯：傳產也可能需要啊，如果未來他們要出口，他們就需要綠電，這怎麼處理？"],["郭部長智輝：是，完全正確。我們當然就是統計他們的需求量，然後幫助他們，第一個可以買到綠電，第二個幫助他們能夠節能又能夠減碳，剛才也很多委員就節能減碳這個問題，大家在討論……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，你在提倡的是ESCO，就是能夠深度節能的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：目前中小企業共同來做深度節能，你們經濟部協助了多少？未來最大的情況就是這4%，除了高科技產業所用的這12%的綠電，剩下4%的綠電你能夠怎麼樣給中小企業？以及大家都在說未來AI高度的發展，他們要用的綠電有可能又會提高，那在提高的情況下，你們怎麼樣子再提高我們的綠電？"],["郭部長智輝：關於綠電，我們現在從發電的部分來看，最快速的方法就是從風力、然後太陽能、再來水力、再來就是地熱、生質能，我們有五、六種方式可以再提高綠電的量，現在都在同時進行中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：能提高到多少？"],["郭部長智輝：我們預計是這樣，本來是2025年底要能夠達到20%，但是因為過去的一些種種原因，delay到2026年的11月可以達標，就綠電來講，2026年年底的時候，我們大概可以發到550億度，所以這樣子的一個量能，我們其實是可以滿足到2030年。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那我想請問為什麼不用核電？原本的核電跟你所謂的新核能有什麼差別？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想你也非常清楚，核電是潔淨的能源，對減碳是有幫助的，但是核電不是綠電。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我知道。"],["郭部長智輝：我們在2030年之前努力的方向是趕快滿足需要綠電的人，距離2050年，我們還有一段時間可以來努力，所以我們大家都希望能夠討論核電，我們基本上現在有三個基本原則，如果我們今天要重啟，或者我們要延用，第一個要確它是安全的，第二個核廢料是可以處理的，第三個全民有共識……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我問你的是現在所謂的核電跟新核能有什麼差異性？新核能增加的成本更高，那對於我們整體的減碳有什麼幫助？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個命題我們都是可以討論……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以還在討論，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我想應該是在討論，因為我們如果確定安全沒有問題，第二個確認核廢料是可以處理的，第三個全民有共識，這三個前提都是可以解開的，我們目前碰到的問題是這樣子，您指導的核三的問題或者核二的問題，我們現在在法令上面，它還是沒有辦法，我們必須要先把這個法解開以後，才可以充分的去解決這個問題，這個法如果沒有辦法解開的話，現在經濟部必須要依法行事，也就是說，現在的設備時間到了、40年到了，它就要停機，如果要重新啟用，在5年前就必須要開始進入這個程序，目前卡關是在這個上面，如果全國的國民都同意啟用核電，我相信我們都可以討論這個命題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在不用核電的情況下，是不是就增加了火力的發電？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啊！不一定，我剛才講過了……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：不增加的話，我們有很多的方法。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有啊！今天下午要審議台中電廠的燃氣機組，它就超過了原本火力發電的容量，是不是？那不就是在增加嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：用電量是可以增加，然後減碳量可以大幅降低。"],["謝委員衣鳯：用電量增加，那你不是在增加火力發電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：但是那個是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你不就在增加火力發電嗎？是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們當然是就字義上面……"],["謝委員衣鳯：只是把它從燃煤變成燃氣嘛，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，因為我們現在要減碳，減碳才是我們的第一個目標，減碳最快的方式，就是用燃氣來減掉燃煤的碳，現在大家比較concern的就是碳的問題，所以我們先用燃氣來減碳，這個是快速可以達標的，減碳以後……"],["謝委員衣鳯：火力是綠電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：火力當然不是綠電。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊！火力不是綠電，火力也不是乾淨的能源，對不對？以上，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們將來會用氫來捕捉碳、用氫能來捕捉碳，這個我們也在研究開發，一方面我們加快綠能的開發，所以綠能在這個時候不斷地加發太陽能光電或者是水力發電或地熱的發電或者是風力的發電，風力除了陸域的風電以外，我們還有離岸風電，這個部分我認為其實是可以得到更大的support，如果大家願意支持台電發更多的電，我相信就是大家在看的，台積電用那麼多電、半導體用那麼多電，我們中小微企業也需要這麼多電，臺灣就是一個以出口為導向、以世界為市場的國家，我們必須要滿足所有企業，大中小微所需要用的綠電我都要滿足，所以將來2050年我希望綠電能夠到達70%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","蘇巧慧","黃國昌","羅智強","蔡易餘","王育敏","徐欣瑩","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","涂權吉","黃珊珊","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國\n對設置 SRF 發電廠之規劃評估，及設置 SRF 發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}