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的運作，包含近期台達電，臺灣綠電的模範生，創辦人也講核三廠停機以後，臺灣在核電除役之後，綠電可能也不足。我們看一下，部長剛剛自己在講的，臺灣現在的再生能源，綠電的結構16%，但是我看去年（2023年）台電公司的報告，發購電量結構裡面的綠電占比，太陽能、風能、水力等有的沒有的加起來大約只占10%，所以我不確定你這個16%到底從何而來。","再來，回過頭來講，今天谷立言講的是說綠電不夠，我們看到去年再生能源的合計是242.9億度，台積電去年用電就230億度了，換句話說，如果全臺灣的綠電全部都給台積電用的話，我們綠電所剩無幾。請問部長，我們要去哪裡生綠電出來？"],["郭部長智輝：綠電的部分，我們有很多的方式在創電，剛才跟很多委員都討論過了，我們的綠電創電的部分來自於風力、來自於光電、來自於水力、來自於生質能源……"],["黃委員健豪：這些我都知道，結構上有寫，我是說去年就是這樣子的數字而已，你這個16%是怎麼來的？"],["郭部長智輝：這個就是它不會隨著年度呈現線性關係，就是每一年、每個月做多少，不會，它是我同時下去做，然後兩年以後、四年以後長出來的，所以創電的時間不一樣，它的量不一樣，得到的結果會不一樣，沒有線性關係。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你16%的計算不是用它每年度的發購電量結果，是用某一天它曾經達到16%，就認為我們的綠電有16%？"],["郭部長智輝：不是這樣，我是不是請他們的專家跟你報告一下？"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，因為我是外委員會的，時間比較少，部長，後續提供書面報告給我，你們那個16%到底怎麼算出來。","回到電的問題，我還是要討論一下今天台中火力電廠即將要環評的部分，現階段10部機組就有550萬瓩，如果讓各位去蓋燃氣機組，未來目標是要蓋6部燃氣機組，蓋到6部燃氣機組之後，它的發電量已經超過了現在的發電量，6部燃氣機組是你們的目標，蓋6部燃氣機組，現有的燃煤機組，過去承諾要拆掉，也的確要拆了4座，你還會留6座燃煤機組給我。部長，昨天在總質詢的時候，我想院長跟你都說不可能把這燃煤機組拆掉，那就回到問題啦！如果電夠用的話，第一個，為什麼要蓋新的？如果蓋新的，如果夠用而且還更多了，舊的為什麼不能拆掉？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是碳的問題啦！"],["黃委員健豪：碳的問題，我知道啊！我就是因為碳的問題所以問你燃煤機組可不可以拆嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：所以就是在解決碳的問題啊！"],["黃委員健豪：解決碳的問題，那你今天已經解決碳的問題，燃煤能不能拆嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：燃煤當然是……"],["黃委員健豪：我沒有反對天然氣喔！"],["郭部長智輝：燃煤當然是要拆啊！"],["黃委員健豪：當然要拆，你確定？"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！"],["黃委員健豪：部長，因為昨天院長說沒有喔！"],["郭部長智輝：這是時間嘛！就是什麼時候拆、拆多少。"],["黃委員健豪：拆多少？現在有10部。"],["郭部長智輝：這個就是……"],["黃委員健豪：經濟部過去已經承諾了，第一期拆2部，第二期今天要環評，你要給我們拆幾部？"],["郭部長智輝：我們就看環評結果啊！"],["黃委員健豪：你們的計畫是多少？你們要有計畫……"],["郭部長智輝：要看環評結果。"],["黃委員健豪：你們願意全拆嗎？如果環評結果……"],["郭部長智輝：我們要看環評的結果。"],["黃委員健豪：因為我們今天講的是發電量，我們講的電，現在分兩部分，電量……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在的量跟未來不會一樣的，未來我們整個中部地區還是會持續發展、繁榮，用更多的電，所以……"],["黃委員健豪：但電就是不夠啊！如果照你的邏輯，電就不夠嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：我就是要讓燃氣的電能夠滿足整個大臺中地區，大家都能夠幸福快樂的用電，所以，我們當然是要趕快把燃氣接上去……"],["黃委員健豪：因為主席站起來了，部長……"],["郭部長智輝：將來我們的綠電，如果大家更支持的話，我希望大家可以用綠電。"],["黃委員健豪：我支持啊！部長，我們先講台中電廠就好了。","主席，對不起，最後一段話而已。","現有的燃煤機組10部就有550萬瓩，你蓋了新的燃氣機組之後，再加上現有的燃煤機組，就是810萬瓩，整個發電量就已經超過了本來的燃煤機組了。我現在問的是，一樣你去蓋新的燃氣機組，大家沒有反對，為了減碳也只能這樣子，你蓋了新的燃氣機組，那舊的燃煤機組，你願不願意，經濟部你願不願意把它拆掉，用燃氣換燃煤，發電效率也更高，就這樣子而已，我的問題就這樣子而已。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們的目標是一樣的。我們的目標是一樣的，代表我們的方向也是一樣的。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你願意拆掉燃煤機組？"],["郭部長智輝：我們沒有說不拆掉啊。"],["黃委員健豪：確定喔？好。部長謝謝。主席謝謝。"],["主席：請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","蘇巧慧","黃國昌","羅智強","蔡易餘","王育敏","徐欣瑩","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","涂權吉","黃珊珊","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國\n對設置 SRF 發電廠之規劃評估，及設置 SRF 發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}