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所以這是個趨勢您說對了所以因為這樣的趨勢我們應該先做一個調查瞭解現在勞動力勞工他需求的方向然後呢我們再回過來看產業的需求我前不久在交通部問過客運業啊他們現在缺司機願意做全天8小時的全職的駕駛呢都是中高齡所以不得不交通部延長到68歲那新的年輕的人呢他不想要一天綁8小時"},{"start":268.456,"end":291.185,"text":"因此他們就說那我們在尖峰時間我們會顧那些已經退休的回來做兩個小時或者年輕人他就來做兩個小時你支持產業這樣的做法嗎就是他用這個方式來應付他尖峰時間客運業他的尖峰時間需要讓很大但是他為了尖峰時間的需求他僱用一堆人不見得顧得足"},{"start":292.509,"end":315.099,"text":"所以我問一下客運業的聘僱臨時人力有沒有法令上的限制我記得那時候你好像告訴我說沒有沒有沒有很好所以我們就要思考那如果沒有法令上的限制那為什麼僱主跟勞工他們沒有辦法去媒合達成說我想打工的就來打工僱主說你想打工的我就有這個監察的工作給你我們來看一下下一個"},{"start":316.525,"end":333.747,"text":"農業需要什麼樣的勞動力?現在農業缺工對不對?有季節性的缺工有常態性的缺工但是呢我們看到一個新聞啊他說你請外籍移工啊寫來做阿公啊為什麼?我農忙的時候我請了外籍移工但是我農協的時候他在做阿公啊你有沒有了解到這個情況?"},{"start":334.741,"end":352.746,"text":"我知道所以為什麼農業部門會有這個情況呢因為農業生產跟工業生產不同工業生產機器一開24小時你全天一週七天一個月30天一年360天你要隨時都可以農業要看老天爺啊是"},{"start":353.706,"end":354.347,"text":"你覺得可不可以"},{"start":376.601,"end":378.642,"text":"有什麼法令的限制我這樣講"},{"start":397.347,"end":414.214,"text":"其實農閒上學農忙下田這裡面就是需要教育部農業部跟勞動部共同來設計不然的話你知道現在農裡面雇用的得到的額外補充勞動力都是廠工都是移工"},{"start":415.094,"end":436.87,"text":"他們是8點上班5點下班中間還出來4點就來打工然後8點來打工這個對外籍移工賺錢好但是對他的身體勞動權不好所以我們認為與其用外籍勞工不如用外籍的什麼農學工過去我們再往下看有一種叫教育部的做法你看透過PD勞動力我們客運車的業者可以做這樣的事情那但是他會缺乏什麼保障"},{"start":437.967,"end":465.535,"text":"他會缺乏他可能職災的保障有沒有啊他的一個退休準備的保障有沒有啊這個勞動部要去幫忙享受啊包括你現在在支持的外送平台很多外送平台他不想要跟僱主成為全職的勞僱關係但他也不能接受這個承攬關係僱主完全對他沒有義務那有沒有可能在這兩者之間我們找出一個類勞工的方式來保障這些兼職人員部分工時人員他跟僱主之間的關係而且他們彼此的權益可以這樣嗎"},{"start":466.752,"end":496.121,"text":"我們來研究好嗎好那最後呢我要告訴你來你要看往下往前跳最後一個你好往前往前不是學校的學工學校的學助往下一頁這個就是教育部那時候出來的大概在8年前那些大學的研究生他有領錢所以呢學校就請他工作研究室的助理會幫學校做行政工作後來教育部呢有研究生反映啊我領你6000領你8000我是研究生碩博生結果呢我的勞動權利在哪裡"},{"start":497.141,"end":515.38,"text":"勞動部那時候出面了就有一個專科以上學校兼任助理勞動權益保障的指導原則這是勞動部出面的有沒有還沒印象在座的官員有嘛對不對所以那時候分成什麼分成兩種一種叫學習型的一種叫行政型的學習型的他的參與是基於學習的目的"},{"start":516.08,"end":528.531,"text":"但是如果是行政型的不是學習型的他就比較強調他勞動的部分給予他保障學校對這兩種型的助理學生助理是給予不同的條件有沒有印象"},{"start":530.486,"end":531.146,"text":"最後一題"},{"start":557.901,"end":557.921,"text":"鍾佳濱"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":802,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時17分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。今天我們大家都關心缺工的問題，都說全職的缺工，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一個，部長你知道嗎，我們不只是勞碌命，而且有一個部分要特別跟你講，我們的部分工時勞動參與比率很低，請問部長，對於全職參與勞動跟部分工時參與勞動，你認為有什麼差別？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，臺灣所謂總工時長，確實是因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我沒有問總工時長，我講部分工時。"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們部分工時參與率是比較低的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你覺得這是雇主不願意給全職工作，還是勞工不想做全職的工作？"],["何部長佩珊：不，我們部分工時的參與率低其實是正面的，因為這其實等於是說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：等等，這句話我有一個保留，我先問你，我沒有說哪個正面或負面，我說部分工時參與率低是因為雇主不願意提供全職工作，還是勞工不想做全職工作？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，部分工時參與率低是意味著雇主……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我說部分工時的職缺少，是老闆不想僱全職，還是員工不想做全職？我都花了30秒了，這樣聽懂了？好，我來講啦，我再講的更直白一點啦，以前的人都結婚，但是現在結婚率下降，為什麼，因為同居就好了，先進國家都這樣子，因為結婚就有彼此的權利義務，而同居有同居的幸福，但是可能彼此沒有約束，我用這個方式來說明，過去的勞工希望跟雇主有一個從一而終，比如日本的永聘制，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：終身僱用制，但是現在好像勞工對於只被一個雇主綁住他所有的時間，他不能去做其他兼差，可能有不一樣的想法，像現在foodpanda都很流行，你覺得這個觀念是不是有些不一樣了？"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然，確實新興的勞動彈性型態是現在年輕人他們比較願意的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：而且勞動部現在推銀髮族、中高齡就業促進，也希望能夠多製造一些部分工時的職缺，讓這些中高齡者來參與，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是這樣？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們說嘛，產業是不是一定要全職勞工，勞動部要做一個思考，就是要問我們勞工需要什麼樣的職缺，勞工有的需要全職的職缺，有的喜歡部分工時的職缺，是不是這樣？"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們勞動部與其問老闆說你需要全職工，是否可反過來問勞工你希望什麼樣的彈性工作方式？你同不同意？"],["何部長佩珊：同意，同意，因為我們在中高齡的就業促進上就是採用這個方式。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實不止是中高齡，很多年輕的、不同世代的勞動力，他可能一天寧可把8小時用來兼三份差也不想幫一個老闆做8個小時的工，你覺得有沒有可能？有可能嘛！所以現在整個的工作概念是不一樣的，過去認為勞工必須要有一個雇主僱用他整天的時間，僱用他一輩子，而且雇主要對勞工有一定的義務跟保障，勞工也喜歡有這樣穩定的鐵飯碗，這是過去的概念。現在勞工可能會說雇主綁住他全部的時間，但我要想辦法去休息，我要休假，我要自由，我不要有這樣固定的勞雇關係來綁住我，你覺得有沒有這個可能？"],["何部長佩珊：有，其實這是一個趨勢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是一個趨勢，您說對了，所以因為這樣的趨勢，我們應該先做一個調查，瞭解現在勞動力勞工需求的方向，然後我們再回過頭來看產業的需求。我前不久問過交通部，客運業現在缺司機，願意全天做8小時的全職駕駛都是中高齡者，所以交通部不得不延長到68歲，新進的、年輕的人不想要一天綁8小時，因此他們就說我們可不可以在尖峰時間僱用那些已經退休的人回來做兩個小時，或者是年輕人就只來做兩個小時，你支持產業這樣的作法嗎？客運業在尖峰時間的人力需要量很大，但為了尖峰時間的需求就僱用一堆人不見得僱得足，所以我問一下，客運業的聘僱臨時人力有沒有法令上的限制？我記得那時候你好像告訴我說沒有。"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，沒有限制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，很好。所以我們就要思考，如果沒有法令上的限制，那為什麼雇主跟勞工沒有辦法媒合達成說想打工的就來打工，雇主說你想打工我就有這個兼差的工作給你？下一個，我們來看一下農業需要什麼樣的勞動力，現在農業缺工對不對？有季節性的缺工，有常態性的缺工，但是我們看到一個新聞，說是請外籍移工是來當阿公啊！為什麼？農忙的時候我請了外籍移工，但是農閒的時候他在當阿公啊！你有沒有了解到這個情況？"],["何部長佩珊：我知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼農業部門會有這個情況呢？是因為農業生產跟工業生產不同，工業生產機器一開就是24小時全天，一週7天、一個月30天、一年360天，要隨時都可以上工，農業要看老天爺啊！氣候限制你不能下田嘛！所以過去一直有一個概念，就是我們現在的新南向國家，你們不是同意讓一些有技術、來學習技術的學生可以去當副理、佐理嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你覺得同樣來臺灣學習農業，他可不可以農閒上學、農忙下田？你覺得可不可以？"],["何部長佩珊：去工讀？"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["何部長佩珊：農校啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，他來念農校嘛！對不對？他可以農閒的時候就上學，因為他們課程的安排很有彈性嘛！農忙的時候大家下田，不只是體驗、可以賺錢，還可以實際的去做中學，你同意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：同意，同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下這有什麼法令的限制，其實農閒上學、農忙下田這裡面就需要教育部、農業部跟勞動部共同來設計，不然的話，你知道現在農業裡面得到的額外補充勞動力都是廠工、移工，他們是8點上班4點下班，4點後就出來打工到8點，這個對外籍移工來說好賺錢，但是對他的身體勞動權不好，所以我們認為與其用外籍勞工不如用外籍的農學工。過去教育部有一種作法，透過PT勞動力，我們客運車的業者可以做這樣的事情，但是這樣會缺乏什麼保障？可能會缺乏職災的保障、退休準備的保障，這個勞動部要去幫忙想，包括你現在支持的外送平台，很多外送平台人員不想跟雇主成為全職的勞雇關係，但他也不能接受雇主完全對他沒有義務的承攬關係，那我們有沒有可能在這兩者之間找出一個類勞工的方式，來保障這些兼職人員、部分工時人員跟雇主之間的關係和他們彼此的權益？可以這樣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們來研究，好嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。最後我要告訴你的是學校的學助部分，這是教育部那時候出來的，大概在8年前，那些大學的研究生他有領錢，所以學校就請他工作，擔任研究室的助理或幫學校做行政工作，後來有研究生反映說我領你6,000元、領你8,000元，可是我是研究生、碩博生，結果我的勞動權益在哪裡？勞動部那時候出面了，就訂了一個「專科以上學校兼任助理勞動權益保障指導原則」，這是勞動部出面做的，有沒有？在座的官員還有沒有印象？有嘛！對不對？所以那時候分成兩種，一種叫學習型、一種叫行政型，學習型的參與是基於學習的目的，但是如果是行政型的、不是學習型的，就比較強調在勞動的部分給予他保障，學校對於這兩種類型的學生助理是給予不同的條件，有沒有印象？"],["何部長佩珊：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我希望你們可以參酌外送產業的外送作業安全指引，以及過去在勞動部協助之下訂定的專科以上學校兼任助理勞動權益保障指導原則，是不是可以研發包括給運輸業、包括給我們醫療業、包括給農業，如果他是以學生的身分，可以怎麼樣用部分工時方式來參與勞動，補充我們國家的勞動力？可以研究嗎？就是針對這部分去研議。"],["何部長佩珊：我們來研究，好嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：請研議聘用非典型勞動PT人力的可行性，好嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多久可以給我一個大概的報告？"],["何部長佩珊：一個月內。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。謝謝主席！"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}