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報告委員我們這些都是滾動式的這個在調整就是說我們還是與時俱進所以那個是我們的目標但是實際上我們一定要"},{"start":309.444,"end":326.89,"text":"基於實際的狀況我們來努力我們希望你們都能答出來也不是部長說了16%我現在早上大家都在問你這個16%的問題這個是當天你有16%但是每個委員問你就是你平均值是打多少目前都是8到10而已啦"},{"start":327.15,"end":327.47,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":357.261,"end":379.93,"text":"臺電你的歸咎你的責任部分是最高的2021年的話你的責任是40.9%你的2022年是42%2023年是又再提高到46.5%這都是你的責任你說強振電網在做配電升級也在做為什麼你們的臺電發生的這個這個責任歸屬的地方還是一直在提高呢"},{"start":380.883,"end":383.186,"text":"已經每年都在做了,要減少你們台電發生問題啊?"},{"start":399.986,"end":418.361,"text":"對你們責任一直在提高是都是因為你們的責任才發生在停電的問題這個就是因為在隨著時間所以那個設備每一年都會增加這個老的這個狀態每一年都在太快應該不好這個發生在停電問題會減少啊是我們給你的計畫是10年計畫強振電網跟配電的提升"},{"start":423.204,"end":423.505,"text":"報告委員數字上面齁"},{"start":445.885,"end":445.905,"text":"部長﹗"},{"start":468.319,"end":488.691,"text":"桃園已經有5家在做SRF的這個發電現在又核准了這3家剛剛我們省次長也提到說在整個工業區的總量的環評的空屋的部分他是可以不用做環評但是你不要忘了空屋的問題"},{"start":490.682,"end":507.423,"text":"的問題是隨著風向一直在飄離開他的園區的所以你怎麼去測試那本席要告訴你就是桃園市政府已經撤銷了他們入園許可現在第二次撤銷我們也希望部長你把"},{"start":508.064,"end":531.363,"text":"民眾的聲音聽進去不要強行讓他們入園因為我們希望的話就是我們環境部跟我們經濟部一定要了解你們重演的條件跟規範目前來講的話這個SRF它的來源有製造廠跟空污規範的這個要做一個"},{"start":532.324,"end":561.36,"text":"通盤的整理的規劃裡面尤其是我們目前的鍋爐空污空氣污染的這個物的這個排放照目前來講有兩種就是粒狀的空污物歐盟的標準每立方公尺是10毫克環境部的話目前的標準每立方公尺是30毫克如果說是氮氧化物歐盟的標準是73 ppm環境部的標準是100 ppm"},{"start":562.981,"end":586.033,"text":"這就是環境部放鬆的地方所以請你們要比照歐盟國家一定要重演你的重演標準年底要出來但是本席再次提醒目前你的標準是這樣子對於這鍋爐空氣污染物的這個排放的標準現在在這邊所以現在請你照我們環境部"},{"start":586.954,"end":587.114,"text":"所以我們請"},{"start":601.24,"end":623.811,"text":"部長、郭部長不要在這個二度的撤銷桃園市政府的這個處分這種惡性循環會讓我們再生能源更加的這個沒有辦法有好的出路尤其是對於民眾跟地方、中央跟地方不要在這邊在角力讓我們大家不要有民眾更多的不滿請我們環境部跟經濟部"},{"start":626.792,"end":626.932,"text":"主席主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1010,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（12時7分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，因應全球供應鏈的改組跟國際局勢的變動，我們鼓勵臺商回流到臺灣來加強投資，我們的政府也在2019年用三大投資方案吸引臺商回臺投資以及根留臺灣，最重要的還要讓中小企業能夠加速投資。這三大方案現在定調了沒有？因為我看到你們又延長到2027年。"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我們有延長。"],["呂委員玉玲：你延長，那有沒有做修正、調整？這個計畫還沒出來嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們按照原來的計畫繼續實施。"],["呂委員玉玲：原來的計畫？但是要你們現在臺商回流投資的方案適用對象大部分臺商都在大陸，你們有沒有規劃擴大到全球，也就是全球臺商？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。","還有，要讓中小企業能夠在臺投資、能夠升級的話，你們要輔導他們，但最重要的是你們又進一步擴大到在臺的外商，如果他們能夠投資的話，你們也擴大讓他們申請，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["呂委員玉玲：為什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：外商也一樣。"],["呂委員玉玲：外商？"],["郭部長智輝：現在對於所有要投資臺灣的，我們都歡迎。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以外商也是嗎？但是如果要擴大外商進來投資，又提供他們同樣申請標準的話，會不會壓縮我們中小企業跟臺商的生存空間與範圍？"],["郭部長智輝：以我們目前的計畫來看不會。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，本席會這麼問，就是因為我國核定了1,559家企業的投資案，但預計到年底還有632件沒有完成投資，這些你有沒有協助？"],["郭部長智輝：現在所有投資都逐案在進行啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：你完成的只有927件啊！還有632件沒有完成，這些沒有完成，你還要再擴大？那你怎麼協助他們呢？他們是基於什麼原因沒有來投資呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請投資司向你報告一下？"],["呂委員玉玲：好。"],["張司長銘斌：跟委員報告，到去年年底的話，事實上95%都有按計畫完成，有一部分是因為疫情的關係，還有缺工、缺料、原物料大漲……"],["呂委員玉玲：這些問題？"],["張司長銘斌：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：還有沒有別的問題？"],["張司長銘斌：還有一部分是因為……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以本席要提醒你們，核定了這麼多，完成了927件，但未完成還有632件，對於這些案件，你們都要了解原因，有什麼困難需要協助的，你們要協助，好不好？"],["張司長銘斌：好，沒問題。"],["呂委員玉玲：再來，企業投資最重要的還有水電問題、廠房設計問題，這些也都是問題。在水電問題上，台電曾特別講我國2030年的綠電發電量要達到30%，對不對？但是我又看到你們下修的資料是到24.7%，是不是這樣，台電？部長，你知道嗎？他們已經下修了。能源局呢？"],["郭部長智輝：你是說我們的綠電占比下修？"],["呂委員玉玲：對，就2030年要完成的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：應該沒有吧？"],["呂委員玉玲：24.7%是你們給我的數字。"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請能源署回答？"],["呂委員玉玲：好，請游署長。"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，依照我們現在估計，到2030年12月還是可以達到30%。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以這個數字是不對的喔！"],["游署長振偉：我們有重新檢討，就是有在作滾動檢討……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們現在就是重新檢討，要達到30%？"],["游署長振偉：對，重新滾動檢討。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，我要請教的就是，現在我們的綠電不可能作為基載能源，對不對？目前太陽能發電變成綠電的主力了，它占再生能源的比例是48%，但在天氣、氣候不佳的情況之下，像是到11月還有颱風這樣的情形，太陽能發電量會減少，你仍然認為綠電目標到2030年就會達成嗎？因為有受到氣候的影響啊！"],["郭部長智輝：這本來就在考慮的因素之內啦！也就是說，它之所以不能作為基載能源，就是有它的限制在，所以太陽能的……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以就必須調整嘛！目前就是太陽能啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們對於這些都是滾動式調整，也就是說還是與時俱進，那是我們的目標，但是實際上一定要基於實際的狀況來努力，所以我們的再生……"],["呂委員玉玲：好，我希望你們都能達成，也不是部長說的16%。早上大家都在問你16%這個問題，但這是當天有16%，而每個委員在問你的是平均值達到多少，目前都是8%到10%，了不起到12%而已。所以我希望到了2030年，既然目標是30%，你們就要達成。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員關心。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在我們最關心的就是台電啦！為了降低停電事故，2022年、2023年強韌電網及配電升級計畫都努力在做，但是我看到，在你們供電穩定計畫的事故統計裡面，從2021年、2022年到2023年，事故責任歸咎於台電的部分是最高的，其中2021年你們的責任歸屬比例是40.9%，2022年是42%，2023年再提高到46.5%，這都是你們的責任。你說強韌電網在做、配電升級也在做，為什麼台電在責任歸屬比例這個地方還是一直提高呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想會發生電網事故基本上有幾個變數關係，包括設備老舊、包括使用量的……"],["呂委員玉玲：已經每年都在做了！應該要減少台電發生問題啊！"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：但你們的責任一直在提高，都是因為你們的責任才會發生停電問題。"],["郭部長智輝：這是因為隨著時間，設備每一年都會增加老化狀態……"],["呂委員玉玲：每一年都在汰換，停電問題的發生應該會減少啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們給你的計畫是十年計畫，強韌電網跟配電提升都有在做，每年做就必須每年減少事故，結果還在每年增加！"],["郭部長智輝：所以，報告委員……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，我會提醒你這個部分，就是在告訴你，很多回流臺灣投資的人也要看我們的供電能不能穩定，供電不穩定的話，他們是不敢回來投資的，所以請你們好好地檢討所有供電。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，從你這個數字上來看，其實事故數量一直在降，是底下的比例稍微高一點……"],["呂委員玉玲：比例還是提高的啦！所以你們還是要檢討……"],["郭部長智輝：對，所以我們要檢討。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們要檢討是不是強韌電網還有要檢討的部分……"],["郭部長智輝：當然、當然。"],["呂委員玉玲：還有配電升級的部分，就是要檢討，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，一定要檢討。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席還要問的就是SRF。部長，桃園已經有5家在做SRF發電，現在又核准了這3家。剛剛沈次長也提到，因為整個工業區有總量環評空污，它們可以不用做環評，但是你不要忘了空污的問題！空污是隨著風向一直在飄，離開它所在園區的，你要怎麼測試？本席要告訴你的就是桃園市政府已經撤銷了他們的入園許可，現在是第二次撤銷，我們也希望部長把民眾的聲音聽進去，不要強行讓它們入園，希望環境部跟經濟部一定要了解，要設定從嚴的條件跟規範。","目前SRF的來源有製造廠，根據空污規範通盤整體規劃，目前鍋爐空氣排放的污染物有兩種，針對其中的粒狀空污物，照歐盟的標準，每立方公尺是10毫克，環境部目前的標準則是每立方公尺30毫克；如果是氮氧化物，歐盟的標準是73ppm，環境部的標準是100ppm，這就是環境部放鬆的地方，所以請你們比照歐盟國家，一定要從嚴，且從嚴的標準年底要出來。本席再次提醒，目前標準是這樣的，對於鍋爐空氣污染物的排放標準在這邊，所以請環境部要依照歐盟國家的標準，可以更嚴，不能更鬆，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：可以在這邊承諾嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：可以在這邊承諾年底開出來的標準會比歐盟更加嚴格。也請郭部長不要二度撤銷桃園市政府的處分，這種惡性循環會讓再生能源更沒辦法有好的出路。對於民眾跟地方來說，中央跟地方不要再角力，讓民眾有更多不滿，請環境部跟經濟部把民眾的聲音聽進去，對於民眾，不要讓空氣污染危害他們的健康，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：我們了解，但是在委員會評審的部分，我沒有辦法影響。"],["呂委員玉玲：一定要從嚴，不能放鬆，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請黃國昌總召發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","蘇巧慧","黃國昌","羅智強","蔡易餘","王育敏","徐欣瑩","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","涂權吉","黃珊珊","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國\n對設置 SRF 發電廠之規劃評估，及設置 SRF 發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}