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利息；其次是台電同仁的薪水，可能就是獎金的部分，大家稍微降一下……"],["蔡委員易餘：我看最好不要這樣子……"],["郭部長智輝：這也不是我們願意的嘛！"],["蔡委員易餘：去動到台電同仁的福利，我覺得不好，畢竟他們也這麼打拚。"],["郭部長智輝：我的意思是，一般企業經營大概都是會這樣，國營企業不會這樣，我們不會去動到員工的薪酬。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，如果真出現這兩千億沒辦法來挹注的時候，也許就得思考其他的方案，可以再來研究……"],["郭部長智輝：我們再請大家來指導。"],["蔡委員易餘：我昨天也說了，因為台電公司扮演著物價「防波堤」的角色，過去它都擋在第一線，如果遇到產業寒冬的時候，就由台電負擔電價的損失；如果遇到物價上漲的時候，民生用電的部分凍漲，也是穩住物價的一環。所以台電公司的角色很重要。依部長的想像與規劃，未來很多責任不應該再完全讓台電扛在第一線，就這個說法來看，是不是我們中央政府也就是行政院自己就要扛在第一線？幫台電來分擔？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會請其他單位來協助。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是大家一起來協助。過去可能有一些對農漁業、弱勢團體、社福團體的補助，就由他們自己來編列預算，台電就少了這部分的支出。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：這對台電來說，也可以減少負擔。本席再講一個跟產業有關的議題，這次電價漲了12.5%，我們考慮到產業消退的狀態，所以我們以113年上半年度用電衰退15%為基準點，衰退15%以上的產業就凍漲，衰退5%至15%者就減半。但我後來也接收到很多產業向我反映，他們說只用113年用電衰退、產業銷售額衰退作為基準，會產生一個問題，比如我上次質詢時提到，傳統的鋼鐵業在兩年前俄烏戰爭發生時，就已經衰退，已經盪到谷底，113年上半年，他們就已經在谷底了，就這麼慘了，也不可能再慘個15%給你看。相對之下，你說他是用電大戶，電價是他很大的成本，可是這個產業衰退是在兩年前，俄烏戰爭發生時，就已經衰退到了谷底。所以，現在看起來我們的這一個制度，並沒辦法充分反映現在很多傳統產業因為用電成本上升，他們所面對的壓力。除了鋼鐵業，還有螺絲、重金屬業，也都有這樣的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，電價訂價委員會裡面有很多的專家跟學者，可能當初在訂定這個價的時候，這個部分沒有被提出來，作為他們的參考。我們每年有兩次調整電價，電價不一定只往上調，也有可能往下調。委員指教的這一點，我會提到12月的電價諮詢委員會，請他們參考。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，因為很多產業的狀況，以前就已經反映……"],["郭部長智輝：對，不能以這麼短的時間來做評估。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果用這麼短的時間來論定的話，基本上會有相對的剝奪感。這是第一點。"],["郭部長智輝：是。謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二點，台電公司面對產業這樣的衰退，電價凍漲或是減半，我看也是台電要負擔，是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣說起來，我也覺得自我矛盾，一方面希望解決台電的問題，一方面又覺得很多產業需要用電上的照顧，因為他們真的沒有成長，我知道自己在這一題的論述會有矛盾，所以回到要台電當產業的防波堤、物價的防波堤這一點，我認為經濟部本身也應該編列部分的預算幫助台電，一起協助這幾年遇到景氣寒冬的產業。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我認為台電的問題有兩件事情，不是補助或不補助，而是讓台電所有的創電成本能夠降低；第二個，台電的經營效率要能夠提升，從本身的體質來改造，我不希望台電的電價是會再漲的……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦！當然啦！"],["郭部長智輝：因為電力是國力，所以我們希望大家可以用到比較便宜的電，這個是我們努力的方向，我們現在台電一直朝這個方向，包括怎麼樣提高創電的效率、怎麼樣在營運的效率上面來提升、減少成本的墊高，這是我們努力的方向，所以我才……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，這是一直要這樣做、一直要保持的，但是我們現在要解決的是過去兩年成本的提高，造成大幅的虧損，所以我們現在短期內是遇到這個壓力……"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望能夠改善我們財務上面的問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個改善不只是現在，應該是持續都要做好改善的。"],["郭部長智輝：對，過去的虧損，也希望能夠改善。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒錯啊！第二個，我再用1分鐘的時間就好，跟部長再就教一下，現在我們好多產業真的都是被中國資金所侵略，尤其是一些我們看不到的產業，其中有兩個很有名的吳宗憲，像演藝界的吳宗憲投資LED，後來整個被中國廉價的LED打趴了；我們立法院的吳宗憲在8月的時候也開了一個記者會，他說整個陸資都遁入新加坡或者是香港，同時把臺灣的帷幕牆，帷幕牆就是我們在蓋房子外面暫時包起來的那個，這些全部都被中國貨給壟斷了。你看連國民黨的吳宗憲委員都有跳出來說了，那我們經濟部有正視帷幕牆被陸資壟斷的狀況嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：只要有業者反映，我們都會列入檢討。"],["蔡委員易餘：這件事情業者已經有反映了喔！他們的公會事實上都在反映，已經被陸資攻城掠地到，連我們臺灣臺北未來的一個指標──雙子星建設，也都是用陸資的帷幕牆。"],["郭部長智輝：我們回部以後會來了解這個問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，連我們臺灣未來指標的一個建案，都已經被中國攻城掠地了。對他們陸資的審核，是否足以嚴格？足以排除那些陸資，他們現在都是假借新加坡最多，我們認為，就這個部分，中國就是有他們的競爭力，他們就是用價格優勢在攻擊，我們臺灣當然在這部分要做好自己的自我防護，我們經濟部站在第一線，當然要幫它審查好。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員，我們會建立這個基準來嚴審，然後您剛才所指正的那個案子，我們已經退掉了。"],["蔡委員易餘：有退掉了？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我了解，那再繼續保持。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","蘇巧慧","黃國昌","羅智強","蔡易餘","王育敏","徐欣瑩","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","羅廷瑋","陳冠廷","涂權吉","黃珊珊","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國\n對設置 SRF 發電廠之規劃評估，及設置 SRF 發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}