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基本上 很多的 很多的 很多的列別啦 才列別來講他也不見得有多低薪喔 甚至高薪的還蠻多的啦齁 包含 包含 包含 包含剛從大學畢業的"},{"start":111.173,"end":112.634,"text":"在台北市的服務業平均薪資也不能算低"},{"start":132.974,"end":156.169,"text":"如果僱主賦給這些服務業的對象基本上我的理解他也不算低當然有這個城鄉上的一個落差嘛所以我現在就是要讓部長瞭解到這個狀況那勞動部應該可以扮演更堅強的這個角色不過他還是會連動到相關的部會這個我們都清楚嘛那部長你可以看一下就是說這個是你們的報告嘛606案"},{"start":157.61,"end":185.169,"text":"6點6岸的職缺這個是超過半年補不到人的嘛對不對這是勞動部的資料綜合統計結果綜合的分析主計處剛剛部長有回應其他委員就是說他一個事業能力雇用調查的這個報告則是112年8月底工業及服務業的職缺數是在23.7萬然後他會叫同年的2月增加2.1萬因為他是8月2月8月這樣在計算"},{"start":187.43,"end":198.18,"text":"那或許這23.7萬的職缺就成了部長答覆的可能你們在統計的方式不太一樣他應該是不是就不是缺過這個缺超過6個月的啦您這個是組總的調查吧沒有組計總處下一張對他這個就是職缺調查"},{"start":209.504,"end":224.549,"text":"對這個是主計總署的調查沒有錯對嗎我說你們是半年你們的6.6萬是超過半年補不到人的嘛對不對那主計總署或許就是不是超過6個月的一個統計嘛對應該是這麼講他可能現在缺而已"},{"start":225.889,"end":240.337,"text":"現在缺而已但是你去年8月對照2月主計總署的統計一個表格是增加2.1萬這是主計處我不曉得你怎麼解讀這一個那部長你再看下一個數據"},{"start":242.519,"end":261.177,"text":"103一直到112這個是主計的資料他是每年就這樣公佈如果他公佈這個數據是有問題的那就很嚴重了因為105是民進黨開始執政那你看我們在105到109左右平均都在22萬以下"},{"start":263.339,"end":283.627,"text":"10月11年疫情的一些狀況有增加但是到了11年到112年我們還是維持在23萬以上不是以下這個我就要請教部長有沒有機會有沒有什麼做法有什麼精進的作為可以壓低回到105到109這個區間22萬左右有嗎"},{"start":288.269,"end":313.14,"text":"委員我想因為歷經3年的疫情啦他這個是有一個爆發式的經濟需求存在其實這個喔112年23.7那當然慢慢的也許他也有可能緩和下來啦這也是有可能的那可是你說我有沒有這個能耐把他要回到105年"},{"start":315.442,"end":331.533,"text":"我沒有用能耐兩個字來形容部長我是說有沒有想到用什麼樣的方法可以把他壓到22萬當然我們現在正是要努力但是如果部長要願意這樣努力達成這個目標但是你們今天報告又會被挑戰"},{"start":333.314,"end":355.922,"text":"你們的報告裡面寫這樣每年協助求職者就約50萬人其中在112年就協助服務部門僱用44.8萬包含住宿、餐飲13萬、批發及零售業11.3萬顯然這個老花署每年都有這樣成效但是你看那個缺工還是持續在惡化"},{"start":357.485,"end":382.942,"text":"報告裏面我勞動部報告裏面寫的也非常清楚就缺工缺工的原因以這個待遇不符合期望比率最高這部長剛才在答詢的過程裏面也一直提到那行政院總處也有這樣的一個資料就人力運用調查統計資料顯示失業者曾遇過工作機會曾遇有工作機會而未就業原因中以待遇不符合期望佔比最高62%其實什麼地點"},{"start":385.444,"end":398.423,"text":"對理想工作環境不良等等等比例還算是偏低嘛那我現在是現在就是說那勞動部在沒有這些工作的時候有沒有再去做這樣的一個統計他留在這個職場的時間有嗎"},{"start":402.519,"end":415.655,"text":"我請署長講好請署長跟委員報告我們一般就會追蹤至少三個月會持續做追蹤至少三個月以上對以下以下因為有些像兆福園這一部分我們甚至到一年"},{"start":417.598,"end":432.184,"text":"不同列比的追蹤的時間所以你這樣的統計數字有點奇怪我這邊有一個民間的統計數字你看一下他根據民間的統計大約約有25%到4%的先進員工他在半年內就離開了就離職了"},{"start":435.129,"end":461.272,"text":"這樣如果你套在你們老花鼠每年每盒50萬也就是說你們一旦每盒50萬不到三個月半年他就跑了就離子12.5萬到20萬左右嘛就半年內離子啦我們講半年內為一個週期來講這個是這個數據這樣推估如果統計起來等於老花鼠在做這些事情好像在做白工"},{"start":463.18,"end":463.821,"text":"臺灣就已經不是一個低薪的環境"},{"start":474.895,"end":493.362,"text":"他這個待遇不合期期望到底是雇主不願意去提高薪資還是還是還是從事這個職業的人他覺得這個薪資沒有達到他要的這個我們不曉得你們有沒有去做相關的一些調查"},{"start":495.558,"end":506.567,"text":"因為我覺得他是要細究的啦他絕對不是只有單純說平均薪資怎樣怎樣我們也要調了啊你看明年我們的明年最低的基本工資是28590塊嘛對不對時薪就來到190嘛其實你們都有在做嘛民進黨執政呢這這八九年已經提了提了九次了嘛"},{"start":515.194,"end":538.232,"text":"所以我是覺得說然後你再看喔你們報告就寫你6.6萬的缺工數與中階技術層次最多占59.7嘛對不對那同時較高層次占32高階技術占32.7排序在第二嘛然後你們有一個叫做後續強化精進做法"},{"start":539.953,"end":562.927,"text":"是要把喬外森拿來補嗎?喬外森就是中階人力對我剛才講的這兩個城鎮你要補中階人力是喬外森嗎?我沒有反對你拿喬外森來補不過這個有點奇怪喬外森本來是一個補充人力那你現在把他放在中階這一塊那喬外森就不會跟你講說心思不符合期望"},{"start":564.156,"end":582.595,"text":"他也會啊對啊我要跟您報告齁其實現在我們對僑外生的政策已經逐漸不是把他看成補充他是已經把他當人才啦我們甚至還要搭配國防會的修法攬財的專法的修法希望能夠把他銜接技術移民這樣問題又更嚴重了"},{"start":585.29,"end":614.693,"text":"對不對待遇不符期望那蕎麗生沒有這個問題有他有他也有這樣的問題啊他所有蕎麗生可能比例會比62%更高那你們怎麼處理待遇不符期望對啊對啊對啊對啊是這樣啦所以蕎麗生進來他會是做他這個台灣就是說我們現在看那個產業裡面他有需求的高就是說薪水有一定程度以上的而真的找不到人啊"},{"start":615.593,"end":637.558,"text":"這個才是我要開中階的目的嘛比如像我昨天在我在服務業的那個座談裡面測會繪圖的那種技術人員他的薪水可能比如說四五萬以上的可是你的腿他就找不到人而他是需要專業的那這一種我就是吸引我就是用這種中階橋外生來希望能讓他們來進入這裡這樣子啦"},{"start":642.399,"end":658.605,"text":"你這樣打呼我 我覺得怪怪的就台灣我們就自己找不到了你期待中階這一塊從橋外生找然後你又不擔心他們有這個待遇不符合期望的狀況就沒辦法衝突衝突了"},{"start":659.634,"end":676.367,"text":"我現在有個概念大家要弄清楚就是中階的是人力他不是for低薪行業的移工啦這是兩個是喔中階的人力他是真的要來補人力的不足而他是一定薪水以上的喔"},{"start":677.188,"end":698.786,"text":"啊,會有薪資門檻的。這就是為什麼旅宿的中階橋外生他還要限制薪資門檻3萬3以上你如果是在台灣的旅宿業喔都會低到2萬7、2萬8這樣子而已所以這個是中階人力是有薪資門檻以上要來補人力不足的"},{"start":703.044,"end":719.232,"text":"所以他不會去他也會向上提升薪水啦我的意思是這樣就我的理解現在不要說中階連低階的薪資門檻都有在提高如果說你對僑外生有中階的這個勞工需求的薪資門檻的這樣的一個設定那對國人怎麼又沒有"},{"start":729.264,"end":732.528,"text":"我們對國人也是那就是希望要提高薪資啊"},{"start":733.713,"end":762.555,"text":"對啊你你這邊講門檻這邊是提高薪資那個那個做法上就為什麼我們要限要要對中階有薪資門檻就是怕他拉低國人薪資啊所以我們才會有薪資門檻的限制因為他不是移工這就是為什麼我不開服務業移工的原因因為服務業移工太低嘛你一進來又不是不是我們要弄清楚一件事情你對你對喬艾森的中階的這個部分有一個門檻的提高對不對那你對國人的中階的部分有沒有做這樣處理沒有"},{"start":763.542,"end":785.389,"text":"國人的中階甚至都會更高啦因為國人本身在薪資水準上都是時間的關係啦我們再來對啦最後一個我再提醒我還是希望你那個精進的報告可能要再詳細一點好不好不然你那個老花鼠這麼辛苦真的我感覺好像都是在做白工什麼原因這麼快就離開這個職場"},{"start":788.11,"end":808.504,"text":"是不是只有單純的待遇不符合期望的62%我覺得這個是可以討論的空間啦我最後再提醒老花鼠好不好你們吼現在我們就全台在講缺工趙薇今天也排這個專案嘛吼那你看老花鼠在辦理工作崗位訓練有這個叫做先顧後訓然後每訓練一年每月有補助1.2萬喔"},{"start":811.046,"end":825.919,"text":"特定區域你又提高到每個月1.5萬我想這是一個好的政策啦力量善嘛你的網站怎麼又這樣特定缺工產業先顧後勸課程查詢馬上查詢兩則課程你又發他來啊bug"},{"start":836.161,"end":836.481,"text":"謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1203,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時59分）謝謝召委。我就接續召委剛剛垂詢部長的題目，好不好？"],["主席：請何部長。"],["劉委員建國：部長剛剛答復黃召委時也提到，臺灣現在早已不是低薪的環境，既然勞動部知道這個狀況，那麼勞動部扮演改善這個情況的角色會著重在什麼地方？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因應缺工，我們在報告中提到要培訓國人及引進外籍等等，大致不會脫離這些方式，但我們也必須因應現在整個勞動型態的變化以及產業型態的變化，該如何與產業之間進一步的討論，怎麼樣的作法可以讓產業願意付出又能引進需要的勞動力，而且要搭配產業願意付出的薪水，這就是我們要在勞動力的供給端與需求端幫忙撮合的一個蠻艱鉅的工作。"],["劉委員建國：我還在消化部長這樣繞了一大圈又有點聽不太清楚的回答，其實我要強調的是，當然臺北已經不是一個低薪的環境，基本上，以很多產業的類別來講，它也不見得有多低薪，甚至還有蠻多的高薪，包含對大學剛畢業的求職者開出的薪水也是蠻高的，不過，各項類別可能還是要請勞動部去盤查，因為我們講的是比較著重在傳產業、服務業的情況。坦白講，其實臺北市的服務業平均薪資也不算低喔！雇主付給這些服務業員工的薪資，基本上，根據我的理解，其實並不算低，但是有城鄉上的落差，現在我就是要讓部長了解這個狀況，勞動部應該可以扮演更堅強的角色，不過它還是會連動到相關的部會，這個我們也都很清楚。部長，你可以看一下，這是你們的報告，顯示有6.6萬的職缺超過半年補不到人，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：這是勞動部的資料，綜合統計的結果、綜合的分析。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：根據主計總處的事業人力僱用狀況調查報告，截至112年8月底，工業及服務業的職缺數是23.7萬，因為是以2月及8月作為計算的月份，相較於同年的2月增加了2.1萬。或許這23.7萬個職缺，真的如部長剛剛的答復，可能是你們統計的方式不太一樣，它應該不是超過6個月的職缺。"],["何部長佩珊：你這個是主總的調查，對吧？"],["劉委員建國：主計總處。"],["何部長佩珊：對，它這個就是職缺調查。"],["劉委員建國：對，這是主計總處的調查，沒有錯。"],["何部長佩珊：對，是主總的調查。"],["劉委員建國：你們的6.6萬是指超過半年補不到人，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：主計總處這個數字或許是包含不超過6個月的統計，應該是這麼講吧！"],["何部長佩珊：對，它有可能是現在缺而已。"],["劉委員建國：現在缺而已？"],["何部長佩珊：它是流動的。"],["劉委員建國：但是以去年8月對照2月，主計總處統計的表格是增加了2.1萬，我不知道你要如何解讀這個數據。部長，你再看下一個數據，103年到112年，這個也是主計總處的資料，它是每年公布的，如果公布的這個數據有問題，那就很嚴重了！因為105年是民進黨開始執政，對不對？你看，從105年到109年左右，平均都是在22萬以下，110年因為疫情的一些狀況就開始增加，但是到了111年及112年，這個數字還是維持在23萬以上而不是以下。我想請教部長，有沒有機會、有沒有什麼做法、有什麼精進的作為，可以壓低回到105年至109年22萬左右的這個區間？有嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因為歷經3年的疫情，它是有一個爆發式的經濟需求存在。其實112年的23.7萬也許可能慢慢地緩和下來，這也是有可能的，但是你說我有沒有這個能耐把它壓回到105年的狀況，這個……"],["劉委員建國：我沒有用「能耐」2個字來形容部長，而是說有沒有想到用什麼方法可以將它壓到22萬？"],["何部長佩珊：當然我們現在就是要努力、就是要努力。"],["劉委員建國：如果部長願意努力達成這個目標，但是你們今天的報告會受到挑戰，因為你們的報告寫著，每年協助求職者約50萬人，其中在112年協助服務部門僱用44.8萬人，包含住宿及餐飲業13萬人，批發及零售業11.3萬人。顯然勞發署每年都有這樣的成效，但你看缺工的狀況還是持續惡化。勞動部的報告也寫得非常清楚，缺工的原因以待遇不符合期望的比例最高，剛才部長在答詢的過程中也一直提到。而行政院主計總處也有這樣的資料，根據人力運用調查統計資料顯示，失業者曾遇有工作機會而未就業的原因中以待遇不符合期望占比最高達62%，其次是地點不理想、工作環境不良等等，比例還算是偏低。勞動部在媒合這些工作時，有沒有針對他留在這個職場的時間去做統計，有嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長來說明。"],["劉委員建國：好，請署長說明。"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，我們一般會追蹤至少3個月、會持續進行追蹤。"],["劉委員建國：至少3個月以上？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，有些像是照服員的部分，我們甚至會追蹤到1年。"],["劉委員建國：不同類別有不同的追蹤時間？"],["蔡署長孟良：對。"],["劉委員建國：所以你們這樣的統計數字有點奇怪！我這邊有一個民間的統計數字，你看一下！根據民間的統計，大約有25%到40%的新進員工在半年內就離開了、就離職了，如果把這個套在你們勞發署每年媒合的50萬，也就是說，即使你們媒合了50萬人，但不到3個月、半年，他就跑了、就離職了，大概有12.5萬到20萬左右的人會在半年內離職，我們就以半年為一個周期來講。根據這個數據來推估，勞發署做這件事情好像是在做白工？"],["何部長佩珊：我們來檢討，好嗎？"],["劉委員建國：現在就是我們大家一起來檢討嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：待遇不符合期望高達62%，但剛剛部長說臺灣已經不是一個低薪的環境，因此，這個待遇不符期望到底是雇主不願意提高薪資，或是從事這個職業的人覺得這個薪資沒有達到他要的？不知道你們是否有針對這點去做相關的調查？我覺得它是要細究的，絕對不是只有單純的平均薪資如何如何，我們也要調了啊。你看明年的最低基本工資是2萬8,590元、時薪達到190元，其實你們都有在做嘛！在民進黨執政的這八、九年已經調了9次。然後你們的報告又提到，6.6萬的缺工數以中階技術層次最多，占了59.7%，對不對？同時較高階技術的部分占32.7%，排序在第二嘛！你們有一個後續強化精進作法，打算以僑外生來補嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：那是中階人力。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！剛剛我講的是這兩個層次，填補中階人力的是僑外生嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：我並沒有反對你以僑外生來補，不過，這個有點奇怪！僑外生本來是一個補充人力，現在你把他放在中階這一塊，僑外生就不會告訴你薪資不符合期望嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：他也會啊！"],["劉委員建國：對啊！所以……"],["何部長佩珊：報告委員，其實我們現在對僑外生的政策已經逐漸不是將他們當成補充人力，而是已經將他們當成人才，我們的政策甚至還要搭配國發會攬才專法的修法。"],["劉委員建國：既然你們把他當成人才……"],["何部長佩珊：希望能夠讓他銜接技術移民。"],["劉委員建國：這樣問題就更嚴重了，對不對？待遇不符期望，難道僑外生沒有這個問題？"],["何部長佩珊：有，他也有這樣的問題啊！"],["劉委員建國：所有的僑外生的比例可能會比62%更高，你要如何處理？"],["何部長佩珊：待遇不符合期望？"],["劉委員建國：對啊！"],["何部長佩珊：僑外生進來要做的是現在有需求的產業、有一定程度以上的薪水，而且真的找不到人，這個才是我要開中階的目的。譬如昨天我在服務業的座談，測繪、繪圖的那種技術人員，他的薪水可能是四、五萬元以上，但是雇主就是找不到人，因為這是需要專業的，針對這種狀況，我就是希望能讓僑外生進入這種中階的工作。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我覺得你這樣的答復怪怪的！臺灣自己就找不到人了，你還期待中階這一塊可以從僑外生去找，也不擔心他們有待遇不符合期望的狀況，這個部分有些衝突。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，現在有一個概念大家要弄清楚，中階人力不是for低薪行業的移工，這是兩回事喔！中階人力是真的要來補人力的不足，而且他是一定薪水以上、是有薪資門檻的，這也是為什麼旅宿的中階僑外生還要限制薪資門檻3萬3以上，如果是在臺灣的旅宿業都會低到二萬七、二萬八而已，所以中階人力是有薪資門檻以上要來補人力的不足，他的薪水也是會向上提升，我的意思是這樣。"],["劉委員建國：就我的理解，現在不要說是中階，連低階的薪資門檻都有在提高耶！"],["何部長佩珊：對，我的意思就是……"],["劉委員建國：如果你對僑外生有中階勞工需求的薪資門檻設定，對國人怎麼會沒有？"],["何部長佩珊：我們對國人就是希望要提高薪資啊！"],["劉委員建國：對，你這邊是講門檻、那邊是提高薪資，作法上就會……"],["何部長佩珊：為什麼我們要對中階設定薪資門檻，就是怕他拉低國人薪資啊！所以我們才會有薪資門檻的限制，因為他不是移工，這也是為什麼我不開服務業移工的原因，因為服務業移工薪資太低，一進來就會把……"],["劉委員建國：我們要弄清楚一件事情，你對僑外生在中階這個部分有一個門檻的提高，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：你對國人中階的部分有沒有做這樣的處理？沒有？"],["何部長佩珊：國人在中階的部分甚至都會更高啦！因為國人本身在薪資水準上都是……"],["劉委員建國：時間的關係，我們再來對啦！最後還是要提醒你，我還是希望你提出的精進報告能再詳細一點，不然，雖然勞發署那麼辛苦的做事，卻讓我感覺是在做白工。到底是什麼原因這麼快就離開職場？是不是只有單純的待遇不符期望占62%？我覺得這個是有討論的空間。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["劉委員建國：最後我要提醒勞發署，現在全臺都在講缺工問題，所以召委今天安排關於缺工的這個專案，勞發署辦理工作崗位訓練有一個叫做先雇後訓，每訓練1個人每個月就補助1.2萬，對不對？特定區域還提高到每個月1.5萬，我想這是一個好的政策，立意良善，但是你們的網站怎麼會這樣？特定缺工產業先僱後訓課程查詢，馬上查詢，2個課程，又壞了？bug！還是真的只有2個課程？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，因為有些課程結束之後就不會再加上去了。"],["劉委員建國：結束之後就不再繼續了？"],["蔡署長孟良：因為有效的就會在……"],["劉委員建國：所以目前只剩2個課程？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，目前有效開班的還在放。"],["劉委員建國：就2個課程？"],["蔡署長孟良：是，因為這是由部會提供相關的需求，我們就會協助它開設。"],["劉委員建國：所以這個沒有問題？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，沒有問題。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝劉建國委員。","接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}