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,行政院把立法院當作你的立法局嗎?委員,你有沒有繼續看一下,如果草野可以獲得這樣的共識,"},{"start":488.871,"end":489.291,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。"},{"start":504.117,"end":528.883,"text":"你希望找共識嗎?我們可以來救明年度的淨法補償那兩萬塊錢我們來尋找適當的資金來源來支應沒錯,我也想聽到你講這句話早上就寫了啊那你所謂的適當來源的你是從什麼科目裡面去支應這兩萬元那這個我希望朝委之間還有共識我們一定會找出一個方法的今天我再問你你今天還要找共識現在你就可以直接回答啦因為我們如果說"},{"start":533.413,"end":553.024,"text":"所以是這三個方案如果有更好的方法我們也願意討論我想大家對於綜合發展基金裡面去做編列大家很有意見更何況立法院在2017年的時候就通過組決議希望不要再從綜合這個範疇裡面去編這個預算所以"},{"start":559.593,"end":587.309,"text":"這個基金的方式來撥補可能是違法的這個大家應該要有這種共識啊所以現在要用二倍金或者追加預算的方式我們在這邊今天在這邊來詢問院長或者我們主委我們就是希望院長跟主委跟我們的民眾講清楚說明白但是你今天我覺得你還在打魔物仗啊你還是不願意講說你到底要如何指引啊把你的善意告訴我們啊我的"},{"start":588.49,"end":616.015,"text":"議員長﹖"},{"start":616.275,"end":635.615,"text":"當然,如果法律怎麼規定,我們就法律的規定,法律它有它的法理。當然您現在,您剛才一直強調說,您的書面說明講說這個是憲法70條的精神啊。是。但我就剛才一直跟你強調,過去立法院就有做過相關的法案的一個立法。"},{"start":636.015,"end":637.396,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．林思銘二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．林思銘"},{"start":658.168,"end":663.89,"text":"如果朝野有這種共識,而且對於我們用二倍金或是用追加預算也都能夠取得共識的話,那我們就朝這個方向走。"},{"start":685.358,"end":709.337,"text":"這個絕對沒有問題啊是嗎但是第一個前提一定要完成啊將來就是在憲法跟預算法的精神底下你不要預設錢這沒有什麼這個前提我覺得不成立因為本來就是這樣委員你也是本來就是要遵守憲法的規定本來就是要遵守預算法的規定原來就沒有啊原來這一次我們認為有所欠缺你認為沒有我有跟你溝通所以這個我認為有好那我們把它補起來以後不會有這種現象"},{"start":711.459,"end":711.999,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。"},{"start":736.935,"end":750.406,"text":"是在二倍金或者追加預算的方式我們來做討論因為委員在黨團也是重要的幹部您的一席話是應該代表國民黨黨團的意見這部分我們可以來取得共識是否委員的一席話代表國民黨黨團的意見接下來這個院長我要問你有關於這個我們公糧收購的這個部分我先問你那個健保點子好了我想健保點子"},{"start":763.871,"end":783.237,"text":"那裡總統在競選的時候公開承諾就是他必須要把健保點值從0.9塊朝向1.1塊邁進讓一屆對健保點值的改革充滿期待但是我們立法院順應這次順應一屆來提出相關的修法"},{"start":784.622,"end":801.229,"text":"那除了說讓醫療品質更好也是間接維護了我們全民的健康至少我們認為健保點子要保一但是我想我們在這次修法的過程中衛福部對於這個能不能達到一他一直有意見"},{"start":802.009,"end":828.077,"text":"所以我們在協商過程中才這個退而求其次那麼經過三檔的大家的一個協商就認為說希望能夠在這個明年6月30號達到0.95這樣的一個目標要達到這個目標要大概一年要這個700億700億左右但是我們就是在這一次的預算書裡面我們看不到這700億編補在我們的總預算書裡面"},{"start":832.563,"end":860.768,"text":"所以到底說衛福部或者行政院你所謂的要達到0.95的這樣子的一個值啊你到底你要如何做你要如何做院長你今天的當然您今天的報告裡面講得非常的清楚就是說你總共可能未來總共加起來大概有712億大概712億這樣的一個預算來去做一個補充的話可以讓明年的健保點值可以達到0.95"},{"start":862.288,"end":879.682,"text":"我這個解讀有沒有錯誤?712億是我們明年關於預註健保財務以及從公務預算移出的這個部分加起來我們會達到以及這個健保總額增加提高到5.5%的這個數目算起來會有大概712億是直接在健保的相關預算裡面"},{"start":885.686,"end":900.103,"text":"所以你不是把它編在這個總預算書,直接把它譯注到這個我們的健保裡面部分是,增加好像是200多億嘛,對不對181億,健保用公務預算你們是補181億嘛那改善健保的有336億"},{"start":905.689,"end":908.07,"text":"市長,我希望說你用這個方式來做編製"},{"start":940.512,"end":941.453,"text":"好 謝謝林委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":145,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（15時4分）謝謝主席，請行政院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員思銘：院長，還是要針對今天的主題，在野黨針對總預算的編製，最主要的是今天總預算一直沒有辦法進到委員會來審查，我們提出了三個非常明確的主張，但我想從早上到現在，行政院對於這三個主張並沒有很明確的回答，所以我還是一一很理性、很誠懇地來就教院長。","我們先談禁伐補償條例，這個條例在今年6月4號三讀通過，然後在6月24號賴清德總統也公布施行了，這個法案也是由貴黨的伍麗華、陳瑩委員他們提出的，也有將近30位民進黨委員來連署通過。第六條明定把我們的禁伐補償金從114年起從原本的3萬元增加到6萬元，但是我們看到行政院這次送來的114年度總預算書裡面，原民會的預算只編列了4萬元，即禁伐補償金從原本的3萬增加到4萬，而沒有編足到6萬，請問院長，原因是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員有機會讓我再次地說明，我很清楚整個修法的過程，一個法律修法之後，它的效力如何，我很清楚。但是，我要請委員看一下，在今天早上的報告裡面，我特別提到要恪遵憲法第七十條跟預算法第九十一條，尤其是預算法第九十一條規定，增加歲出的時候，要徵詢行政院，並且要指明彌補資金的來源。我想徵詢行政院跟資金來源這兩項，在當初立法的時候是否有所忽略，我們共同來檢討一下，但是如果變成現在的狀況，如果大家往後還是在憲法的精神跟預算法、財政紀律劃分法的規定底下，那明年的預算，我們想辦法來尋找資金的來源，但這個原則要先確立起來。"],["林委員思銘：院長您這個意思，我想你也講過很多次了，你一直認為這次法案的通過，違反憲法第七十條或者是剛才提到的預算法第九十一條，在整個立法的過程中，好像行政院都沒有參與。但是院長您這種說法，我們沒有辦法接受，不管是憲法第七十條講的，跟我們這一次所謂預算案不能增加支出，跟這一次通過的法律案，今天早上傅崐萁總召也提出，過去我們立法院很多的法案裡面提到，如果相關預算要增加的話，行政院會儘量地來跟立法部門溝通，然後達到法案需求的預算數，這是第一點。","第二點，如果談到預算法裡面的規定，要徵詢行政院的意見，就這個部分，我要告訴院長，陳瑩委員或者伍麗華委員他們都表示，在整個立法過程中，包括我們原民會主委現在也在這裡，都有告訴我們的原民，他們都有跟行政院做非常多次的溝通，所以他們才會把這個數字提高到6萬元，但是今天法案通過了，行政院現在才告訴我們，當初我們的立法非常草率，行政院不知道啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有用「草率」兩個字，我是說我們來檢討這個過程是不是有所疏忽，我沒有用「草率」兩個字。"],["林委員思銘：院長，所以這個就造成我們的原民或者我們的全國人民會覺得行政院你在放馬後炮啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是！林委員，你也非常清楚……"],["林委員思銘：法案都通過了！"],["卓院長榮泰：法律的規定它有兩個要件……"],["林委員思銘：所以您要在整個立法的過程中就要講清楚、說明白。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經表示過！"],["林委員思銘：院長，我再請教你一件事情，大家一直在談的，這次你編4萬元是OK，所以你在預算書編了二十八億一千六百多萬，但是為什麼編6萬元就不行呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：在協商之前，我們曾表示過，如果從3萬調整到4萬，那行政院可以同意一起來尋找。委員，預算法第九十一條它還有一個行為，就是要指明彌補資金之來源，在這個修法的過程當中，完全沒有說這增加的預算的來源從何而來，從來沒有指出。"],["林委員思銘：院長，我剛才跟你說，希望你很誠懇地告訴我們社會大眾，因為你說編4萬可以，而且你甚至說現在這部法案通過後，未來你不排除釋憲。編4萬不叫違憲，編6萬叫違憲，這個邏輯在哪裡？我們真的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果依第九十一條規定，這是要徵詢行政院，行政院的意見就是我們可以同意雙方來談，同意可以從3萬增加到4萬。我本來跟原民會說的是，編這個預算，他們內部如何調整，我沒有意見；要把它編成一個名目出來，我沒有意見。"],["林委員思銘：院長，我想我剛才一開始就告訴你了，陳瑩委員或伍麗華委員、貴黨的委員都很清楚告訴我們，他們是有跟行政院溝通、有跟原民會溝通的，因為當時的爭議大概就是你剛剛提到的4萬塊，但最後溝通的結果，行政院並沒有反對提高到6萬……"],["卓院長榮泰：這種說法不對！我並沒有責怪任何委員，只是在溝通過程中，我們的意見沒有被充分尊重，我只能這麼說。"],["林委員思銘：你說沒有被尊重，你這樣說。這個法案已經三讀通過了，三讀通過了，請問您還是堅持己見嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，現在我們的方式是……未來大院在進行相關修法或審預算的時候，是不是會依照憲法跟預算法的規定？"],["林委員思銘：院長，您講的我們都尊重……"],["卓院長榮泰：未來會尊重嗎？"],["林委員思銘：但我現在要說的是，當初在立法過程中已經造成了這樣子，三讀通過的已經是這樣一個法案……"],["卓院長榮泰：我已經跟全國人民說了……"],["林委員思銘：但是院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：只要未來……"],["林委員思銘：您還是不願意依照我們立法院三讀通過的法律依法行政，編列相關預算？行政院要帶頭違法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我在早上的報告講得非常清楚，我早上的報告講得非常清楚，只要兩院未來在憲法跟預算法的精神底下互相尊重，我們想辦法找出資金來源來處理！"],["林委員思銘：好，OK，你說你要找出資金來源……"],["卓院長榮泰：我早上講得非常清楚。"],["林委員思銘：院長，您所謂要找出一個共同研商妥適的解方，你的解方是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，我們之間、兩院之間要恪遵憲法跟預算法的規定，互相尊重，行政院尊重立法院的審查權……"],["林委員思銘：這不是說白話嘛，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有，這一次就沒有！"],["林委員思銘：我們不會尊重嗎？你尊重我，我尊重你，兩院本來就是站在互相尊重的立場。"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院尊重立法院的審議，立法院尊重行政院的預算權，如果朝野……"],["林委員思銘：所以這是暗指法案已經通過了，但行政院還要把立法院當作你的立法局嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你有沒有繼續看一下？如果朝野可以獲得這樣的共識、互相尊重的共識，那麼114年禁伐補償經費，行政院當然可以考量來尋找財源。"],["林委員思銘：好，院長你想要找共識，我想先請教行政院、您的善意回應是什麼？您不是要找共識？"],["卓院長榮泰：共識……"],["林委員思銘：就您這個……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以就明年度的禁伐補償那兩萬塊錢，我們來尋找適當的資金來源來支應！"],["林委員思銘：是、是，沒錯，我也想聽到你講這句話。"],["卓院長榮泰：早上就寫了。"],["林委員思銘：所謂的適當來源是從什麼科目裡去支應這兩萬元？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我希望朝野之間有共識，我們一定會找出一個方法。"],["林委員思銘：院長，今天我在這裡問你，結果你今天還要找共識，現在你就可以直接回答了！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如果說用基金，大家會有不同意見；我們說用二備金，則有用途的限制；我們說追加預算，是不是有辦法？大家可以再來找啊！"],["林委員思銘：所以是這三個方案？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有更好的方法，我們也願意討論。"],["林委員思銘：我想對於在綜合發展基金裡去編列，大家很有意見，更何況立法院在2017年時就通過主決議，希望不要再從綜合發展基金裡去編這種預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：是有這種意見。"],["林委員思銘：所以用基金的方式來撥補可能是違法的，這點大家應該有共識。至於用二備金或追加預算的方式，我們今天之所以在這邊來詢問院長或主委，就是希望院長跟主委能向民眾講清楚、說明白，但我覺得你今天還在打模糊仗，你還是不願意講到底要如何支應啊！把你的善意告訴我們啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我的方法要先得到兩院對於憲法跟預算法的尊重，如果這個有共識，我們就提出……"],["林委員思銘：院長，你講這個我就真的聽不懂！本來就有共識，大家對於憲法本來就必須尊重，這還有疑問嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我能不能問一下，朝野之間對於遵守憲法第七十條的憲政原理跟預算法第九十一條的規定，是有高度共識，未來一定照這種方式來進行，是嗎？"],["林委員思銘：院長，當然！如果法律怎麼規定……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果當然……"],["林委員思銘：就法律的規定，法律有它的法理……您剛才一直強調您的書面說明講到，這是憲法第七十條的精神啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員思銘：但我剛才也一直跟你強調，過去立法院就有做過相關法案的立法，行政院也積極來跟我們立法院溝通，做出善意的回應。但以您現在的作法，我們立法院或我們在野黨團感受不到您的善意！您一直堅持說大家要取得共識，但共識是什麼？我們要的共識就是你很明確告訴我們原民、告訴我們在野黨……"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛已經跟委員講過，如果……"],["林委員思銘：你要編的預算是用什麼方式？不管是二備金、追加預算，我想這個都是可以討論的啊，你就很明確地告訴我們，可能我們就不用基金的方式，就用二備金或者用追加預算的方式。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果朝野有這種共識，而且對於我們用二備金或是用追加預算也都能夠取得共識的話，我們就朝這個方向走，這個絕對沒有問題啊。"],["林委員思銘：是嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是第一個前提一定要完成，將來就是在憲法跟預算法的精神底下……"],["林委員思銘：院長，您不要預設前提，這個前提我覺得不成立，因為本來就是這樣……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為委員你也是……"],["林委員思銘：本來就是要遵守憲法的規定，本來就是要遵守預算法的規定。"],["卓院長榮泰：本來，原來就沒有啊，原來這次我們認為有所欠缺……"],["林委員思銘：哪會沒有，都有跟你溝通，所以這個……"],["卓院長榮泰：你認為沒有，我認為有，那我們把它補起來，以後不會有這種現象，這個事情就可以解決了。"],["林委員思銘：院長，這個不能說以後，本來就不應該這樣子，本來就是要遵守憲法精神，所以以後……"],["卓院長榮泰：本來應該沒有，現在不應該有……"],["林委員思銘：沒有，過去的慣例是怎麼樣，我也希望行政院要去遵守啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：過去慣例是行政院同意啊，同意該筆的預算，所以就沒有問題……"],["林委員思銘：所以院長，大概您剛剛也講得很清楚……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為委員在黨團裡面也是重要的幹部，您的一句話應該可以代替……"],["林委員思銘：您也具體地回應說，未來禁伐補償基金是用二備金或者追加預算的方式，我們來做討論喔，我想我們……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為委員在黨團也是重要的幹部，您的一席話，是應該代表國民黨黨團的意見……"],["林委員思銘：對於這部分，我們可以來取得共識啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：是否委員的一席話代表國民黨黨團的意見？"],["林委員思銘：接下來，接下來，院長，我要問你有關於公糧收購的部分……我先問你健保點值好了，有關於健保點值，賴總統競選的時候公開承諾，就是必須要把健保點值從0.9塊朝1.1塊前邁進，讓醫界對健保點值的改革充滿期待。我們立法院這次順應醫界提出相關的修法，除了說讓醫療品質更好，也間接維護了全民的健康，至少我們認為健保點值要保1，但是我們在這次修法過程中，衛福部對於能不能達到1一直有意見，所以我們在協商過程中才退而求其次，經過三黨大家的協商，希望能在明年6月30號達到0.95這樣的目標。要達到這樣的目標，1年大概要700億左右嘛，但是我們在這次的預算書裡面看不到這700億元有編補在總預算書裡面，所以到底衛福部或者行政院所謂要達到0.95的值，你到底要如何做？院長，您今天的報告裡面講得非常清楚，可能未來總共加起來大概有712億……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["林委員思銘：大概712億的預算來做補充的話，可以讓明年的健保點值達到0.95，我這個解讀有沒有錯誤？"],["卓院長榮泰：712億是我們明年關於挹注健保財務以及從公務預算移出的部分加起來我們會達到，以及健保總額增加提高到5.5%，這樣算起來會有大概712億是直接在健保相關預算裡面。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以你不是把它編在總預算書，而是直接把它挹注到我們健保裡面？"],["卓院長榮泰：部分是。"],["林委員思銘：部分是？增加好像是二百多億嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：不只喔……"],["林委員思銘：喔，181億。"],["卓院長榮泰：光是健保……"],["林委員思銘：健保用公務預算你們是補181億嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：181億，對，改善健保的有336億。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，因為改善健保的336億裡面，當然有181億是直接支出面的部分，加上我們總額的成長率是有史以來最高的，應該可以達到多了五百多億。"],["林委員思銘：院長，我最後一秒鐘，希望你用這方式來做編製撥補以後，明年我們的健保點值一定要達到0.95%。"],["卓院長榮泰：我一定盡力往那個方向走。"],["林委員思銘：你要公開承諾啊！不是盡力而已。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為它變數很多，但是我們一定盡力往那個方向走。"],["邱部長泰源：因為總額有它的制度啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個不僅是我們，也是總統對醫界的呼籲，我們會盡力來完成。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽席的是新北市新莊高中的同學，我們在此歡迎他們到立法院參訪。","下一位請林國成委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","陳昭姿","李坤城","林思銘","林國成","陳冠廷","洪孟楷","張雅琳","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","林德福","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":22,"meetingDate":["2024-11-01"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00002","1138801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「114年\n度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─\n進行質詢 ─","agenda_id":"1138801_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}