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.737,"text":"農民的痛苦一定要知道陳部長你是院長他是"},{"start":512.082,"end":531.773,"text":"主管所有政策的指導,但是在執行的話,陳部長,我說實在,我不知道到現在為了這個事情,人家健保點數也有替代方案,人家原住民的淨化補償也有替代方案,你的替代方案是什麼?"},{"start":533.095,"end":550.107,"text":"我跟委員報告齁其實在主決議裡面一個非常重要的共同目標就是要確保農民的所得嘛這個精神是在的那我們提出來了一個一級二轉三加三的方案就是透過產地價的提高才確保所有的農民的你如果再說到這個我就覺得說你這些噱頭我都贊成這個絕對不是噱頭"},{"start":558.493,"end":558.673,"text":"主席"},{"start":570.404,"end":588.791,"text":"公糧開始收購的時候是要去鼓勵農民去種植水稻因為當時的時候糧食是不夠的是來接下來呢為什麼要補助為什麼要收購沒有那現在目前本身我們的供需裡面每一年多了20萬公噸"},{"start":590.322,"end":611.675,"text":"那公糧制度還是在那邊我跟妳講,吃米要知道米價農民13年來在這個部分從10塊錢慢慢慢慢調,已經13年沒有調來,我跟妳講當初為什麼要收購這個公糧第一是戰備準備量"},{"start":614.597,"end":622.463,"text":"這第一第二保證農民他有一定的這些收入照顧農民"},{"start":626.398,"end":646.952,"text":"我跟委員報告齁公糧的一個收購只是在確保農民收益的一部分那最重要的是我們每一年針對稻農的投入大概有153億然後如果說加上現有的公糧收購已經244億了"},{"start":650.234,"end":666.826,"text":"其實針對這個問題我相信我們卓院長我跟你講沒錯現在算起來你們算起來要九十幾億事實上算起來只有六十幾億啦我坦白跟你講這個部分啦其實農民真的是苦哈哈十三年來他賺錢"},{"start":670.589,"end":699.44,"text":"我跟妳講沙頭生意有人做啦虧錢生意沒有人做農民啊是因為沒有辦法他是農民他的思考邏輯就是說我正中啊我正中啊他不是我跟妳講這個我是農家主帝我很會做的公糧的問題我坦白跟你說我坦白跟你說大量種植絕對不可能因為無利口徒農民只是那溫三寶"},{"start":700.725,"end":702.926,"text":"這兩個政策是矛盾的那我只提供一個數據委員報告"},{"start":721.411,"end":740.711,"text":"十三年來公糧沒有提高,但是這幾年來透過我們的相關的倒做試選山,產地價格提高了大概一百塊,換算成公斤的話是每一公斤也差不多提高了三塊,換句話說我不需要提高公糧的價格,我只要提高產地價格還是能夠確保農民的收益。"},{"start":742.292,"end":762.64,"text":"這是你的促銷嘛跟你的政策是有衝突的嘛你跟我談這個什麼一級二轉三加三那是促銷嘛幫農民促銷是你的責任這不是促銷這是一個產業結構的一個調整什麼不是促銷呢我跟你講公糧收購是政策"},{"start":763.439,"end":763.939,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。"},{"start":784.406,"end":784.546,"text":"林國成"},{"start":799.738,"end":814.953,"text":"坦白講,你要叫他大量去種公糧啊,他不會,為什麼?你們在一集二轉,三加三,你們既然有這麼好的價錢,我幹嘛要交給你公糧?不會,所以"},{"start":815.273,"end":831.187,"text":"委員一句話他會吸引一些原來交過民糧的這個農民會把他的道具送到公糧收購因為民糧跟公糧現在有差距那是賣不出去的時候那民糧他的這個品牌長年推動的優良的品牌就會受到傷害價格就會波動"},{"start":833.689,"end":850.237,"text":"農業部說沒有做事對他們不公平確確實實不管是三毫米啊什麼什麼米啊確實有做促銷但是我不希望部長的觀念你的促銷把政策現在公良收購是政策"},{"start":850.848,"end":863.335,"text":"如果你認為政策不好那你就不要做那不要做你要過渡期阿三年五年我就不收了阿但是我提醒你這是戰備的存量"},{"start":864.6,"end":880.152,"text":"這不是我收來只有顧農民說比較好聽的是在顧農民是在想我們戰備糧如果不充足也不行啊我跟委員報告喔您講得非常好就是說我們的很多工糧一部分是做戰備糧"},{"start":881.013,"end":898.805,"text":"那以現在我們的庫存法定的是3個月可是現在我們的庫存平均供糧大概有7個月到9個月然後再加上民糧的話可以維持至少14個月所以至少可以維持14個月我告訴你啦,柏定,我不想跟你扮啦你有資料你就說我這個政策要取消"},{"start":901.048,"end":924.605,"text":"你還沒有取消以前現在是政策你很簡單你該補的就補那怎麼樣去補我同意卓院長所講的以羅克剛的施政方式大家談清楚大家了解大家共同為我們的農民去做這些最好的Ending這才是好不能像這樣啦不定我告訴你"},{"start":927.785,"end":927.805,"text":"好"},{"start":958.325,"end":958.346,"text":"二、謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":253,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（15時20分）謝謝主席，請卓院長及農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請卓院長及農業部陳部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員國成：院長辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["林委員國成：昨天康芮颱風來襲，我看全國農民的災損一定很嚴重，今天院長及部長在我們本院，當然初步底下一定會回報，我要請教陳部長，到底初步的回報有沒有跟卓院長報告？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，今天早上我們同仁兵分了好幾路，特別是花東地區本身普遍性災害是相當嚴重的；然後在漁業的部分，漁港部分有一些漁筏也受損相當嚴重；至於西部的地方，最主要是蚵棚的部分，蚵棚的部分因為它本身是浮動性，所以這次颱風也會造成一些相關的影響，包括相關……"],["林委員國成：有沒有初步的估計跟院長做報告？"],["陳部長駿季：目前還沒有，因為我們通常是今天下午回來以後，我才會跟院長報告。"],["林委員國成：好。院長，其實坦白講，對於你從頭到現在為止，本席對於你在整個為人處事、執政方面還是高度肯定……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員鼓勵。"],["林委員國成：但是有一個問題，其實我每當看到我們立法院民進黨同事一直在指責這些預算就是國眾兩黨在作祟，院長，我要跟你說一個問題，它是退回程序委員會，還有空間，並非退到行政院去，奇怪了，現在為什麼都要指責我們反對黨在阻擋這些預算呢？就像今天，院長，你來到這裡很好啊，該罵你的人就罵，不該罵你的人，就像我就不會罵你啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["林委員國成：我認為這是好的開始，也要謝謝立法院韓院長跟江副院長的努力，三黨最後做適度的退讓，由你先來做報告，最後再來做決定。對於你的報告，我也一字一字地看了，你也想要解決啊，問題就在三個部分而已嘛，其他的預算都沒有問題嘛！其實很簡單啊，就是原住民的禁伐補償、公糧收購以及健保點數等問題。","這個問題我必須要勸我們院長，有時候你拋開政黨、拋開其他的思考邏輯，是可以解決的欸！因為陳主計長也到我們黨團去做說明，第一，原住民禁伐補償它有替代方案，雖然不能馬上解決，但是最後還是會解決嘛，這是一個方法。另外，有關健保點值的問題，我在想邱部長也說得很清楚，雖不滿意，但最起碼是有動作的，是有方法的，只有什麼？立法院做退讓的一步，你可以來做編列預算的報告，那這些如何解決？其實院長，我在黨團開會跟我自己本身對於這件事情我都講一句話，或許是因為我們這三個法律案通過，不管是主決議，不管是法律案都一樣，三黨都是有共識的，沒有說三黨是哪一個沒有意見。但是有一點，我曾經就偷偷地告訴我們黨團，人家行政院編列在先，我們法案通過在後，這個部分就是在卓院長的一線之隔，也就是你的認定。如果把這個理由講出來，院長，我跟你說，立法院不是像你想的這樣，不是像民進黨，到現在為止……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我都一直保持非常樂觀，如果每個委員先進都像委員這樣的想法，那國家就可以成功了。"],["林委員國成：是，所以，院長，當然有少部分，但是他的堅持是堅持法律，那你堅持說沒有告知，其實不需要。"],["卓院長榮泰：不，委員，我不是堅持沒有告知，我是說未來在立法的過程當中，一定要履行這樣的程序，要徵詢、要指出來源，否則今年可能20幾億，未來可能更多錢，那行政院的預算權將會破壞無遺……"],["林委員國成：不是啦！院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我也不是說立法院（大院）一定會這樣子，但是我們如果能夠依此建立一個模式，一個依憲法、法律規範之下的模式，讓未來的兩院有更好的互動基礎，我想這個都是往成功的路上走。"],["林委員國成：沒有啦，院長，你這個堅持，我也不反對，但是立法院還是有立法院的立場，如果各退讓一步，就會像今天你可以上臺來……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["林委員國成：所以，我特別要呼籲我們院長，我認識的卓榮泰院長，我希望是像過去一樣，是很會協調事情，是以柔克剛的施政方式，可是我看起來現在不是。所以，院長，我真的滿期待，過去的卓榮泰是現在的行政院長卓榮泰的處事風格，所以在這裡……"],["卓院長榮泰：原則性的問題可以討論，但不能破壞，只要討論出一個方式，以後大家照這個原則來走，我想我們的立場都可以互相調整。"],["林委員國成：是啦，這個可以私底下協調啦。私底下協調，立法院有立法院的立場，立法院在立法的時候，沒有什麼處處要先照會行政院，沒有那回事啦！要不要編是你行政院，所以院長，我不會跟你吵架，但是……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，預算法第九十一條的規定就是這樣子。"],["林委員國成：對，它規定是這樣，沒有先照會，只是經費的來源我們要附帶提醒，但是不要忘了，爭這個沒有意思，因為到最後還是要解決。所以，院長，我還是建議你們，立法院有立法院的立場，你們的說法我有時候聽不下去，到現在為止，51個民進黨委員從來沒有跟我們溝通過任何事，沒有啊！只有陳主計長有來溝通，欸，我們聽了，陳主計長在拜訪時我也在，你看看我跟他怎麼講，我說把它講清楚。這樣有時候我們雖然只有8票，但是是關鍵的8票，我們也知道怎麼處理，所以那天我們就談得很好啊，因為只要有方法解決，可以解決的方法，不要堅持己見。我相信任何事情，因為卓院長也是在為臺灣人民做事，立法院也是在替臺灣人民來做事，所以說實在，目標一致，只是在形式上認知有所差距，可是最後是可以解決的啦，院長，這是我給你的建議。"],["卓院長榮泰：多謝，也要請委員多多幫忙，跟我們的同僚之間能夠多多幫忙。"],["林委員國成：好。我拉回來，我的主題很簡單，院長，吃米要知道米價，農民的痛苦一定要知道。陳部長，院長是主管所有政策的指導，但是在執行面的話，陳部長，我說實在，我不知道到現在，為了這個事情，人家健保點值也有替代方案，人家原住民的禁伐補償也有替代方案，你的替代方案是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，其實在主決議裡面一個非常重要的共同目標，就是要確保農民的所得，這個精神是在的，那我們提出來的「1集、2轉、3加3」的方案，就是透過產地價的提高，來確保所有農民的……"],["林委員國成：那個不影響啦，部長。部長，你如果再說到這個，我就覺得，你這些噱頭我都贊成……"],["陳部長駿季：這個並不是噱頭，這個絕對不是噱頭。"],["林委員國成：可是看不出對這個事情有幫助啊！來，我只有問你一個問題，來，我們這個公糧收購，其目的是什麼？你告訴我。"],["陳部長駿季：公糧開始收購的時候，是要鼓勵農民去種植水稻，因為當時的時候，糧食的供給是不夠的。"],["林委員國成：缺糧了啊。接下來呢？為什麼要補助？為什麼要收購？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，目前我們的供需裡面每一年多了20萬公噸，公糧制度還是在……"],["林委員國成：部長，我要跟你說，呷米要知道米價，農民13年來在這個部分從10塊錢慢慢、慢慢調，已經13年沒有調了，我跟你講，當初為什麼要收購公糧？第一，這是戰備準備糧，這是第一點；第二，保證農民有一定的收入，照顧農民，這兩個就是大重點啊！現在對於公糧收購，如果部長認為不行，那你就收回啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，公糧的收購只是在確保農民收益的一部分，那最重要的是，我們每一年針對稻農的投入大概有153億，如果加上現有的公糧收購，已經244億了。"],["林委員國成：部長，我跟你說，其實針對這個問題，我相信我們卓院長……我跟你講，沒錯，現在你們算起來要九十幾億，事實上算起來只有六十幾億。我坦白跟你講，這個部分其實農民真的是苦哈哈，13年來他種這個並沒有賺錢。我跟你講，殺頭生意有人做，虧錢生意沒有人做，農民是因為沒有辦法，他是農民，他的思考邏輯就是我種稻子。我跟你講，我是農家子弟，所以我很清楚，關於公糧的問題，我坦白跟你說，大量種植絕對不可能，因為無利可圖，農民只是為了三餐溫飽、顧肚子這樣而已，所以部長一定要改正錯誤的觀念，你要做什麼「1集、2轉、3加3」，那個都沒有關係，都不影響收購嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，這兩個政策是矛盾的，那我只提供一個數據給委員，這13年來公糧沒有提高，但是這幾年來透過我們相關的稻作四選三，產地價格提高了大概100塊，換算成公斤的話，每公斤差不多提高了3塊，換句話說，我不需要提高公糧的價格，我只要提高產地價格，還是能夠確保農民的收益。"],["林委員國成：這是你的促銷嘛！這跟你的政策是有衝突的，你跟我談什麼「1集、2轉、3加3」，那是促銷嘛！幫農民促銷是你的責任。"],["陳部長駿季：這不是促銷，這是一個產業結構的調整，我們是為了讓水稻的種植面積能夠維持。"],["林委員國成：怎麼不是促銷呢？我跟你講，公糧收購是政策，如果這個政策不行，就撤！部長，我跟你說，你們有本事就撤，就這樣嘛！在你沒有撤以前，這就是政策，那你為什麼要用這種行銷策略來抵制政策呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是用引導的方式讓大家……"],["林委員國成：哎呀！你說引導，我跟你講，部長，你如果這樣說，我就不再問你了，我坦白跟你說，為什麼？卓院長他對於農業略知一二，但不是像你這麼專業，所以專業的人要談出專業的話，坦白講，你要叫農民大量去種公糧，他不會，為什麼？你們在推「1集、2轉、3加3」，你們既然有這麼好的價錢，我幹嘛要交給你公糧，不會！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我講一句話，它會吸引一些原來交購民糧的農民把他的稻穀送到公糧收購，因為民糧跟公糧現在有差距。"],["林委員國成：那是在賣不出去的時候。"],["卓院長榮泰：那民糧這個長年推動的優良品牌就會受到傷害，價格就會波動。"],["林委員國成：院長，如果說農業部沒有做事，這樣對他們不公平，確確實實，不管是三好米或什麼米，確實是有做促銷，但是我不希望部長的觀念是你用促銷作為政策，現在公糧收購是政策，如果你認為政策不好，那你就不要做，不要做你要有過渡期啊！3年、5年後我就不收了，但是我提醒你，這是戰備的存糧，這不是我收來只有顧農民，說好聽一點是在顧農民，實際上，我們戰備糧如果不充足也不行啊！部長！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您講得非常好，就是我們的很多公糧一部分是做戰備糧，那以現在我們的庫存來看，法定是3個月，可是現在我們的庫存平均公糧大概有7個月到9個月，再加上民糧的話，可以維持至少14個月。"],["林委員國成：部長，我跟你說，我沒有要跟你辯啦！你有本事就跟他說這個政策要取消，你就要這樣說，在還沒有取消以前，現在是政策，很簡單，你該補的就補，那怎麼樣去補？我同意卓院長所講的以柔克剛的施政方式，大家談清楚，讓大家了解，大家共同為我們的農民去做這些最好的ending，這才是好，不能像這樣啦！部長，我跟你說，農民都靠你啦，我不會騙你啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員……"],["林委員國成：你不可以用促銷來做政策，現在談的是政策。部長，說實在的是這樣啦，我跟你說，我專門在割稻等等，我很清楚啦！關於公糧，我坦白跟你說，過去價錢很好的時候確實是有瑕疵，他把比較差的交給公糧，我們的公糧都是比較差的，可是現在的農民沒有這樣啦！部長……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員、謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是來自臺北市南港高中的170位同學，我們在此歡迎他們。","下一位請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","陳昭姿","李坤城","林思銘","林國成","陳冠廷","洪孟楷","張雅琳","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","林德福","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":22,"meetingDate":["2024-11-01"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00002","1138801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「114年\n度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─\n進行質詢 ─","agenda_id":"1138801_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}