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會注意到你跟財政部長得一位之隔啊?"},{"start":590.149,"end":617.803,"text":"財政部長有沒有跟你報告到底這個禮拜讓國人紛紛擾擾的中獎門到底是什麼原因他已經有初步的掌握而且我們要求大院委員會也要求他一個禮拜之內要提出完整的說明所以現在什麼原因大家會覺得說這件事情那麼離譜是因為財政部門、國稅部門就是支柱必較的單位到目前為止還沒有告訴國人答案喔他今天已經有初步的掌握那未來一周內他必須完整的報告來部長什麼原因"},{"start":618.663,"end":619.264,"text":"什麼時候會報告"},{"start":639.841,"end":662.53,"text":"一週以內,今天已經禮拜五了,禮拜二發生的事情,所以下禮拜一或二就一定會報告,是不是?還要拖那麼久嗎?你多拖一天其實就對於政府部門的不信任就會增加。剛剛院長一直強調我增加的預算都是要打造都是要什麼,都是好像很冠冕堂皇的理由。但我呼籲啊,我也提醒啊,真的是善意的提醒啊。"},{"start":662.97,"end":683.195,"text":"如果說財政部門、國稅單位這種那麼嚴謹、支柱必較、人民漏報一塊錢、漏報一百塊都要支柱必較的單位都可以用這樣子讓國人看到重複重獎重複不可能的機率的時候發生一次的粗暴事件比政府編一百億的打債預算效果還要強烈"},{"start":684.346,"end":710.658,"text":"報告委員這件事情查出的結果無論如何查出的責任無論如何我們要求行政院我們要求財政部一定要徹底的檢討防範無論查出的結果是如何我們要徹底的檢討當然其實院長連發聲都不應該發聲連發聲都不應該發聲來最後113年的年度預算我想幾個部分很重要其中針對觀光的部分"},{"start":711.496,"end":722.979,"text":"院長,直到今天,今年度我們的觀光,來台觀光人次已經下修的目標,最新目標是多少,您知道嗎?從1000萬下修到750萬。750萬。當初一開始2024年開頭的時候,喊出多少目標?我們說要倍增。1200萬。1200萬。1000萬到現在750萬。今年度我們用在觀光的預算有多少錢?"},{"start":738.118,"end":761.163,"text":"報告委員那個目標的部分今年度我們用在觀光的預算有多少錢?我們應該是有七十幾億七十億明年我們要用在觀光的項目上有多少錢?也應該是差不多七十九億換言之院長人民的納稅錢民脂民膏七十億不是七百萬不是七千萬是七十億"},{"start":762.369,"end":776.805,"text":"七十億的目標、七十億的經費花了更不用講說這其實是延續性的計畫四年延續性計畫今年七十億、明年七十九億但今年繳出的成績單卻是倒退到十二年前的來台觀光旅次"},{"start":777.642,"end":802.816,"text":"院長,可以接受嗎?我不敢太規則於國際因素,但確實國際是有因素。但重要的是我們國內受到這麼多次天然災害的影響,許多國際著名的景點都遭受到嚴重的破壞。日本,日本沒有地震嗎?日本旅客創新高,日本旅客創新高,日本沒有地震嗎?韓國沒有天災嗎?泰國沒有天災嗎?我的意思是說,院長你可以接受嗎?"},{"start":804.173,"end":818.555,"text":"我能接受的是說我們必須趕快把這個事情做得更完整因為像太魯閣、像阿里山它確實在現在是沒有觀光客可以來那這個是我們一直要去努力的院長,再一個數字,您看一下下一張"},{"start":821.701,"end":849.739,"text":"我們的觀光佔GDP其實是一直在倒退還有更重要的是南部鄉親跟北部鄉親觀光客人數減少其實受損最大的是南部的鄉親因為南部的鄉親是沒有觀光人口的這比例是下降的北部相對來講都還持平因為很多背包客有很多這些要利用大台北地區的這個交通運輸系統北部相對比較不受影響最後院長"},{"start":850.68,"end":878.565,"text":"我提出來這個觀光也請您一定要放在心上那還有另外一個部分就是能源議題能源議題在這禮拜二您也接受我們的質詢我再來跟您請教一下幾個部分我們現在台灣到跟其他國家確實有背道而馳你看到我們的用發電用化石原料化石能源的是高達84%這是去年的表格"},{"start":879.198,"end":893.545,"text":"今年因為核三廠一號機、二號機現在稅收的情況下這個比例只有往上增而其他國家不管是全球是60%、歐盟只有32%、美國也差不多60%我們跟世界是越來越遠、越來越擴大"},{"start":894.991,"end":919.091,"text":"再來看一下當全世界都把不管是核能、生物質、水力、太陽能、風電全都變成是clean power也就是所謂的潔淨能源的時候我們卻忽略掉潔淨能源還有院長你有講到未來核能重啓的部分是要有共識是要有這個核廢料的一個影響那目前看起來是沒有是不是目前"},{"start":920.526,"end":925.291,"text":"何能的安全問題跟核廢的處理在社會上還是討論該條件?他必須在明年的5月17號依法就必須重新"},{"start":964.767,"end":965.708,"text":"好,謝謝洪委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":350,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（15時52分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我想在這一次，今天針對114年中央政府總預算案的報告，我們過去這兩個多月以來其實也都一直強調一個概念，政府的總預算只要是依法編列，我們馬上、立即做實質的審查，因為立法院就要做實質的審查才能夠幫人民把關荷包，幫人民把納稅錢該用則用、該省則省。但如果違法漏編，該編的沒有編、應該要編的沒有編的話，那就是政府部門的怠惰！所以我們現在看到，有民調顯示，總預算卡關，37.4%的民眾認為民進黨應該負責；二十幾趴的民眾認為兩黨都該負責；12%的民眾認為在野的國民黨應該負責，院長怎麼看這份民調？"],["卓院長榮泰：坦白地說，任何國家政務的推動有不順暢的時候，執政黨的責任在人民看起來是比較大的，也因為這個樣子，行政院必須負起更多的責任。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，其實也不需要行政院負起更多的責任，我們兩院各自的責任、各自負責啊！但今天本席就拿出來請教──「依法編列立即審查」，到目前為止，沒有依法編列的到底是行政部門還是立法部門？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然清楚禁伐補償這個法律是修法完成過了。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，你也很清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：那程序也完成了，但我要跟委員報告及提醒的是，我們認為在過程當中有若干的疏忽，它沒有履行……"],["洪委員孟楷：若干疏忽？那時候有沒有提出覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：它沒有履行預算法第九十一條的規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有提出覆議？我先請教一下有沒有提出覆議嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說過了，當初我是不願意提出覆議……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有提出覆議嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我相信……"],["洪委員孟楷：那再來，總統公告了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統公告了。"],["洪委員孟楷：總統公告了嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道它程序都完成了。我只想請問委員，未來是不是這樣的方式會一直出現？"],["洪委員孟楷：所以「依法」的部分到底是誰沒有依法？卓院長，可不可以向國人負責任地說明，到底現在行政院長站在這邊誇誇其談是有立場，還是沒立場？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為在預算法第九十一條等相關條文當中，它沒有履行對行政院的徵詢，也沒有明確指出彌補資金之來源……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，非常好。"],["卓院長榮泰：那這兩項未來任何的法律都要履行這樣的程序。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我們先不用講未來，其實歷史一再……"],["卓院長榮泰：不，一定要講未來！"],["洪委員孟楷：其實歷史是一再重演的……"],["卓院長榮泰：一定要講未來！"],["洪委員孟楷：我們先看一下，在這次行政院跟立法院爭議的時候，行政院一直強調一個──立委不能增加預算，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：這沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，我們來看一下，2009年，那時候的立法委員賴清德要求當時的政府要增加社福預算，當時賴清德說因為那時政府的預算送來立法院，看似增加了社福支出，但沒想到其實是減少的，所以賴清德要求增加社福預算。歷史是不斷重演的！再來，那時候民進黨黨團有沒有試著要退回總預算，不讓總預算付委？有啊！2008年民進黨黨團擬退回總預算，但是因為人數不夠，所以被否決了。可是當時他們怎麼做？民進黨黨團提案要求退回，要求行政院重新編列後再送立法院審議。院長，有沒有覺得很有既視感？"],["卓院長榮泰：前一個例子，因為行政院同意了那樣的做法，編足了預算，沒有爭議。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，院長，有沒有比退回總預算更激烈的做法？有喔！因為我們現在強調的是，你只要……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們是在解決問題，還是在分析討論？"],["洪委員孟楷：聽完我的說法，你再說明！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今天重要的是解決明年度中央政府總預算的問題啊！我們已經提出了方法……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長很不敢把問題聽完，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經提出了方法……"],["洪委員孟楷：你提出了什麼樣的方法？除了一直要求我們進入審查以外，你沒有任何方法啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：今天早上的報告清清楚楚……"],["洪委員孟楷：你沒有提出任何方法！來，告訴我，禁伐補償條例的預算你們要怎麼編列？是不是依法編列？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說只要雙方──行政、立法兩院遵守法律的規定，我們就可以在這個審查的唯一原則底下，研究出妥適的方法，只要大院有這個共識，我們的方法就只有這三樣，你也清楚的。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，很直白地講，是行政部門沒有依法編列，並不是立法部門沒有依法審查！為什麼連這樣子清楚明白的道理……"],["卓院長榮泰：再說一次……"],["洪委員孟楷：我說實在話，昨天有媒體朋友在講……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我再說一次……"],["洪委員孟楷：賴清德總統在指揮中心都已經針對各縣市政府給予鼓勵，而不像上一次一樣用「電」的、用質疑的。很多媒體都說，連賴清德總統也在轉彎、也在改人設了，那我們現在要問的是，過去我們認為是調和鼎鼐的「大師兄」，怎麼突然變成是一個違法、不願意編列的「大魔王」？"],["卓院長榮泰：遇到一個法律原則是沒有辦法退步的。"],["洪委員孟楷：法律原則就是依法行政、依法編列！","來，我們再看一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：有沒有依照預算法第九十一條等相關規定的精神辦理呢？沒有啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼可能沒有？怎麼可能沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有指出資金來源……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果沒有的話，你當然就可以做任何動作啊！但是現在就沒有做任何動作……"],["卓院長榮泰：禁伐補償這3萬塊……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是已經公告了？你是不是沒有提出覆議？","再來，院長看一下，2005年的卓榮泰當時是行政院的發言人，當時也遇到行政、立法針對預算的問題，行政院發言人怎麼講？在野黨要求把相關的預算編入年度預算，結果行政院的發言人卓榮泰就講說：「我們行政院已經依照在野黨的要求給編列了」，這就是行政院回應在野黨的主張。2005年的行政院發言人卓榮泰可以接受在野黨要求編入預算的主張，說這是行政院回應在野黨，2024年的行政院長卓榮泰卻沒有辦法，你反而一直在強調的是……你到底有沒有依法編列？沒有！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，這就是你所舉的歷年的案例，行政院一旦同意了這個編列，我們就把它編列進去，那就沒有不履行預算法第九十一條的規定，但是如果行政院有意見，雙方應該來談，而且要指出彌補資金之來源，可是目前這兩個都沒有。我們今天提出……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你把自己的位階給看得太大了。說實在話，行政院就是針對立法院依法通過的法令來做……"],["卓院長榮泰：但一定要完成相關的程序啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：已經完成了啊！就已經完成了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：在憲法之下，沒有大小之分！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你沒有辦法自圓其說，今天就在於行政院一直沒有辦法自圓其說，然後還一直不斷用不管是側翼、網軍……"],["卓院長榮泰：我請問委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：不斷的抹黑帶風向，這種真的有對朝野和諧健康嗎？這種真的對朝野和諧……"],["卓院長榮泰：我請問委員，未來還會有這樣的方式嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：過去你如果這樣，我們先不要談未來，先看過去，過去的民進黨可以有這樣的作法，結果現在民進黨卻是反其道而行，這不是似是而非、這不是換了位置就換了腦袋，不然是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：不同的議題，行政院當然有不同的立場跟主張，你不能把所有的問題都放在一個籃子裡面來談啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我從來沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是委員的意思是……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以院長，其實本席自始至終其實就是強調我們要立即審查，我們要逐條、逐條來審……"],["卓院長榮泰：我也一直希望啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：因為明年的預算，院長你主政之下，明年的預算跟以往最大的不同是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：它的歲出歲入預算規模都比過去大……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，而且大很多，首次突破3兆元。"],["卓院長榮泰：它沒有編列新的特別預算，而且它發生的債務餘額……"],["洪委員孟楷：首次突破3兆元，其中光中央政府各部會的宣傳費用高達26.5億元，26.5億元是什麼概念，這一次我們大家在討論的禁伐補償條例只有14億，你的宣傳費用就高達26.5億，比這一次的禁伐補償條例還多了10億。"],["卓院長榮泰：那是所有部會，不是單一部會。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們講嘛！如果各部會做得好，講實在話，自然人民有感，為什麼你要拿人民的錢來洗人民的腦呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：那是所有部會，而且關於內政部、外交部該做的事項，我們在歷次的說明都說得很清楚，委員都只記得問題，而忘記了答案。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我請教一下，26.5億元裡面，所有部會中有超過億元的，有多少部會？宣傳費用。"],["卓院長榮泰：增加的部分，內政部編了2.67億元，它是針對很多打詐的事情要做一些宣導……"],["洪委員孟楷：你總共有六個部會……"],["卓院長榮泰：另外像交通部有1.39億元，外交部有1.13億元，各有該做的事情……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，你都非常了解，我們多出了那麼多的宣傳費用，為什麼要這樣做？我說實在話，如果你做得好，人民才會有感，如果做不好，你只想要拿去給特定媒體的話，人民當然沒有辦法接受！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有這樣的作法，絕對不會有這樣的結果。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，你剛剛提到內政部提高了2.3億元，主要是用在打詐，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，還有青少年的預防犯罪……"],["洪委員孟楷：上午的國是論壇，我有特別說了，我說政府部門不要帶頭當詐騙集團，請教院長，今天我也注意到你跟財政部長是一位之隔，財政部長有沒有跟你報告，這個禮拜讓國人紛紛擾擾的中獎門，到底是什麼原因？"],["卓院長榮泰：他已經有初步的掌握……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼原因？"],["卓院長榮泰：而且大院的委員會也要求他一個禮拜之內要提出完整的說明，就目前的狀況……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在是什麼原因？大家會覺得這件事情那麼離譜，是因為財政部門、國稅部門就是錙銖必較的單位……"],["卓院長榮泰：他必須找出……"],["洪委員孟楷：到目前為止，還沒有告訴國人答案？"],["卓院長榮泰：他今天已經有初步的掌握，未來一週內他必須完整的報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，什麼原因？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們已經協同法務部調查局一起進來調查，所以對於這個事情，我們整個會去做釐清。第一個，我們知道重複獲獎人不是我們國稅局，也不是財政部所屬的，也不是承包廠商，這是可以確定的，至於還有沒有其他的問題，我們已經在進一步的釐清，一週內我們就會有報告出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會報告？"],["莊部長翠雲：一週以內。"],["洪委員孟楷：一週以內？今天已經禮拜五了，禮拜二發生的事情，所以下禮拜一或二就一定會報告，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，委員，我想我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：還要拖那麼久嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們同仁沒有在拖……"],["洪委員孟楷：你多拖一天，其實對於政府部門的不信任就會增加。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：剛剛院長一直強調增加的預算都是要打詐、都是要什麼，都好像很冠冕堂皇的理由，但我呼籲，我也提醒，真的是善意的提醒，如果財政部門、國稅單位這種那麼嚴謹、錙銖必較，人民漏報一塊錢、漏報一百塊都要錙銖必較的單位，都可以這樣讓國人看到重複中獎這種不可能的機率的時候，發生一次的出包事件，比政府編100億的打詐預算，效果還要強烈。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這件事情查出來的結果無論如何，查出來的責任無論如何，我會要求行政院、我會要求財政部一定要澈底的檢討、防範，無論查出的結果是如何，我們要澈底的檢討。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然！院長，其實連發生都不應該發生，連發生都不應該發生！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，沒有錯，不應該發生。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後113年的年度預算，我想幾個部分很重要，其中針對觀光的部分，院長知道今年度來臺觀光人次已經下修的目標，最新目標是多少，您知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：從1,000萬下修到750萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：750萬。當初一開始，2024年開頭的時候，喊出多少目標？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們說要倍增……"],["洪委員孟楷：1,200萬。從1,200萬、1,000萬，到現在750萬。今年度我們用在觀光的預算有多少錢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，那個目標的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：今年度我們用在觀光的預算有多少錢？"],["陳部長世凱：我們應該是有70幾億。"],["洪委員孟楷：70億。明年我們要用在觀光的項目上有多少錢？"],["陳部長世凱：也應該是差不多。"],["洪委員孟楷：79億。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：換言之，院長，人民的納稅錢，民脂民膏，70億啊！不是700萬，不是7,000萬，是70億，70億的經費花了，更不用講說這其實是延續性的計畫，4年延續性計畫。今年70億，明年79億，但今年繳出的成績單卻是倒退到12年前的來臺觀光旅次，院長可以接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我不敢太歸責於國際因素，但確實國際是有因素，但重要的是我們國內受到這麼多次天然災害的影響，許多國際著名的景點都遭受到嚴重的破壞。"],["洪委員孟楷：日本沒有地震嗎？日本旅客創新高。"],["卓院長榮泰：他沒有像我們幾個……"],["洪委員孟楷：日本旅客創新高，日本沒有地震嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：國際上著名的觀光景點……"],["洪委員孟楷：韓國沒有天災嗎？泰國沒有天災嗎？但我的意思是，院長，你可以接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我能接受的是，我們必須趕快把這個事情做得更完整，因為像太魯閣、像阿里山，它確實在現在是沒有觀光客可以來，那這個是我們一直要去努力的，它一直重複發生。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，再一個數字您看一下，我們的觀光占GDP其實是一直在倒退，還有更重要的是南部鄉親跟北部鄉親，觀光客人數減少，其實受損最大的是南部的鄉親，因為南部是沒有觀光人口的，這個比例是下降了，北部相對來講都還持平，因為有很多背包客是利用大臺北地區的交通運輸系統，北部相對比較不受影響。最後，院長，我提出來的這個觀光，也請您一定要放在心上。","還有另外一個部分就是能源議題，在這禮拜二你也接受我們的質詢，我再來跟你請教一下幾個部分。我們現在臺灣跟其他國家確實有背道而馳，你看到我們的發電用化石能源的是高達84%，這是去年的表格，今年因為核三廠一號機、二號機現在歲修的情況下，這一個比例只有往上增，而其他國家不管是全球的60%、歐盟只有32%、美國也差不多60%，我們跟世界是越來越遠、越來越擴大。再來看一下，當全世界都把不管是核能、生物質、水力、太陽能、風電全都變成是Clean Power，也就是所謂的潔淨能源的時候，我們卻忽略掉潔淨能源。還有院長你有講到，未來核能重啟的部分是要有共識，是要有核廢料的影響，那目前看起來是沒有，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前核能的安全問題跟核廢的處理，在社會還是討論非常分歧……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果這樣的話，那核三廠二號機歲修完畢之後要不要重啟？"],["卓院長榮泰：它必須在明年的5月17號……"],["洪委員孟楷：要不要重啟？"],["卓院長榮泰：依法就必須除役。"],["洪委員孟楷：要不要重啟？"],["卓院長榮泰：要不要重啟，我們核管法目前沒有讓它重啟。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果現在的核廢料就像你講的沒有共識的話，現在歲修完畢之後就不用重啟啦！現在核三廠的二號機41天歲修完之後，你就應該要把它終止啊！怎麼可能你現在沒有終止，結果到明年2025年……那你現在共識有了嗎？核廢料處理了嗎？沒有辦法自圓其說嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員是建議我們歲修之後不重啟嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：我是拿你的邏輯打你的臉，讓你知道你的邏輯是講不通的。"],["卓院長榮泰：你不需要打我的臉。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員、謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在議場二樓旁聽席，除了南港高中的同學，還有臺北商業大學的同學，我們都歡迎他們到立法院參訪。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（16時9分）","繼續開會（16時20分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","陳昭姿","李坤城","林思銘","林國成","陳冠廷","洪孟楷","張雅琳","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","林德福","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":22,"meetingDate":["2024-11-01"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00002","1138801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「114年\n度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─\n進行質詢 ─","agenda_id":"1138801_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}