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啊以花蓮市來講它是原住民族第7啊原住民是1%而已啊以花蓮市來講所以這個部分是這樣那應該要怎麼樣真的要算的話那就要以原住民族基本法"},{"start":452.264,"end":473.419,"text":"第二條部落部落有定義這個是經中央原子民主機關核定的部落它有定義部落所以真的要去算的話不是要以原子民主第7應該要以部落或是家父或是個人"},{"start":474.414,"end":474.794,"text":"委員剛剛提出了很多齁"},{"start":496.223,"end":524.935,"text":"我想不至於發生這樣的誤解啦剛剛有一個交通的建設就一千多億是不是剛剛有一部我們去過的道路沒有一千多億那個是指一直到我想應該因為文字的說明他可能這樣但統計上應該不至於產生這樣的一個誤解因為我們包括明年度的中央政府總預算原住民主委員會的預算也不過124億不可能把這個全部包進去啊我跟你講"},{"start":526.184,"end":554.961,"text":"這是114到123啊,整個是一千多億啦但是114年度是列了五千多萬這五千多也不應該列入,為什麼?抒發公路、抒發案這是整體的一個交通建設不能全部都,不是只有原住民在走所以這個部分是一個是需要去我的建議就是以後就不要列了"},{"start":555.834,"end":556.955,"text":"主計長還有各部會首長"},{"start":584.622,"end":606.53,"text":"真的要算的話,就以部落、家戶或個人。然後呢,真正要去解決的,院長,真正要解決的是這些。平均收入,原住民與非原住民的平均收入的差距,這個落差,怎麼樣去收短。預算的編列,政策的執行推動。"},{"start":607.793,"end":617.62,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw"},{"start":628.736,"end":656.165,"text":"原住民的相關的生活就是靠教育但是這個出債協力越來越大就是要去解決這些問題住宅自有率落差10%所以預算的編列要因以縮減沿岸的生活落差的差距剛剛有講了沒有講到的自來水普及率相關的這些"},{"start":657.645,"end":684.973,"text":"應該是往這個方向去努力這個部分未來應該何時的來編列接下來原住民主懇求行政院卑微的懇求行政院依法行政依法編組預算我們看這個這是列壇的照片列壇非原住民的土地蓋大飯店"},{"start":685.95,"end":712.913,"text":"原住民的土地在上游,強制造林,禁止砍伐。我以這個為例。事實上,讓院長知道,臺灣省政府民國82年就開始禁伐補償,那時候用要點,當初多少?每公頃2萬塊,到明年是已經32年了。32年的物價指數各方面來算,"},{"start":715.49,"end":740.828,"text":"6萬塊不算高好113年6月4號韓院長組織朝野協商的時候行政院各相關的部會在場的都沒有一個部會說可不可以先提高到4萬塊沒有預算那個議事記錄都很清楚既然修正了原住民保育地信法補償條例第6條"},{"start":743.57,"end":768.759,"text":"6月4日三讀通過,行政院為一憲法體複一。我也謝謝過院長,對不對?你沒有體複一,就是切任,無自愛難行。賴總統6月24日公布,院長你也附屬了,你的名字、大名也在這裡,也附屬了。所以,預算的編列就應該編組,但是呢,總共預算28億,然後"},{"start":773.424,"end":798.099,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw二、上午9"},{"start":803.564,"end":825.524,"text":"保護區、水源特定區、國家公園的區域都不是我們以森林法來講禁止砍伐的請求補償,就是要補償所以原住民族基本法21條規定限制原住民使用他的土地的時候應由該主管機關來做補償"},{"start":829.082,"end":856.935,"text":"是誰來補償啊?就是森林法的主管機關,水土保持法的主管機關啊所以你現在主管機關都是農業部啊對不對?一森林法、延期法應該有農業部支應這個預算啊現在放在延民會然後又把它列在這個又把它列在延民會的就院長或是主計長就說讓延民會的預算成長太多"},{"start":858.709,"end":872.051,"text":"一法就應該一法一延期法延期法原住民族基本法就我們原住民族原是我們的憲法就應該要由各部會由各部會來編類但是"},{"start":873.22,"end":875.301,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。"},{"start":888.946,"end":890.906,"text":"民進黨是絕對多數也同意"},{"start":917.631,"end":931.529,"text":"所以我跟委員報告我剛剛委員所說的我是建議委員不用不必用卑微跟懇求四個字我們只要互相尊重那麼在憲法跟法律的底下大家協商出一個"},{"start":935.55,"end":951.968,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。．鄭天財Sra Kacaw"},{"start":961.073,"end":961.093,"text":"好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":831,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（17時41分）主席、行政院院長還有各部會首長。有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長好，辛苦了。康芮颱風造成臺灣地區很多災情，而花蓮、臺東的災情也非常嚴重。像花蓮吉安鄉等地，房子、道路受災嚴重，還有農損，所以臺東縣黃建賓委員特別請我轉告院長及相關部會，當然，未來相關部會也會很辛苦來協助災後復建。其他如成功小港漁港、長濱漁港都有很多災情，我也把特別針對……部長就不用上來了，我已經把書面資料給部長了。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們會很重視並研究怎麼來處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：像這張就包括了農損。我們現在就來談今天的總預算，因為涉及很多部會，所以請行政院主計總處主計長代表各部會上台，也請各部會首長能夠好好了解一下。","在中央政府總預算案說明裡特別提到，114年度原住民族相關經費合計377.3億，數字看起來非常非常大；至於前瞻基礎建設則為703億5萬元，原住民部分為6億4,940萬元，占0.09%。其中，六億多的預算裡，媒體宣傳為1,600萬元，占了2.5%，真的太多了，這點原民會要檢討。","其次，虛胖的原住民族預算。我來做一個說明，讓院長、主計長及各部會首長能夠了解。159.46億，寫起來有這麼多，但包括公路系統新建、國家風景區開發、農田水利發展，還有整體性治山防災等等，都不應該列為原住民族預算。舉個例子，像台9線花東縱谷公路安全景觀大道計畫，這個台9線從花蓮木瓜溪一直到臺東與花蓮縣界，114年度編列22億4,450萬元，說明寫得很清楚，全數列為原住民族預算，因為在原住民族地區。花蓮跟臺東都是原住民族地區，以花蓮來講，原住民只有占四分之一，所以這個部分不需要，以後行政院主計總處也不必要那麼辛苦去計算這個，為什麼不計算客家的呢？客家在花蓮也很多，比我們原住民還多啊！","好，花東縱谷公路安全景觀大道臺東段的部分，從花蓮縣界一直到臺東市綠色隧道，全數114年度7億9,400萬，這些道路不是只有原住民在走，我們還是算少；生活圈道路也是一樣，全數預計8億8,772萬8,000元；省道也是一樣，剛才台9線也是省道，現在這個是另外一個省道改建計畫，原住民族地區11億5,544萬8,000元，都不應該列為原住民族的預算；蘇花公路安全提升計畫，院長去了2次，對不對？和仁到崇德，謝謝院長去了2次，114年到123年度總共1,056億，就114年度來說，5,230萬元，全數喔！所以這個部分都不應該。","這個部分再舉例，一樣是省道養護等這些20億8,259萬6,000元；水庫集水區，而且是國有林的治理5億9,400萬，也列為原住民族預算；農田水利跨域整合、農地重劃，還有農田水利事業，都很多啊！經濟部的中央管流域整體改善計畫5億，農田水利事業6億多，農村再生、山村綠色，只要是在原住民族地區都列入啊！前瞻基礎建設中的提升道路品質部分包括交通部、內政部，農業部的國有林治理，經濟部縣市管河川，還有數位發展部強化偏鄉，偏鄉不是只有原住民啊，內政部有定義偏鄉地區，原住民只是其中一部分而已。所以對於這樣的一個預算，我要特別建議，如果真要算的話，各部會誤以為原住民族地區都是原住民，不是啦，以花蓮市來講，它是原住民族地區，但原住民是1%而已，以花蓮市來講，所以這部分是這樣。那應該要怎樣？真的要算的話，就要以原住民族基本法第二條的部落，部落有定義啊，這個是經中央原住民族主管機關核定的，部落是有定義的，所以真的要去算的話，不應該是以原住民地區，應該要以部落或者是家戶或者是個人，當然這不好算啊，所以就不要算了。不然的話，預算的編列這樣虛胖會讓國人誤以為原住民族才百分之二點多的人口，竟然有這麼多預算，對不對？院長，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員剛剛提出了很多，我想不至於發生這樣的誤解啦，剛剛有個交通建設就是一千多億，是不是？剛剛有一個我們去過的道路……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有一千多億，那個是指一直到……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，因為文字的說明可能是這樣，但統計上應該不至於產生這樣的誤解，因為明年度中央政府總預算中原住民族委員會的預算也不過124億，不可能把這個全部包進去啊！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長，我給你看，這是114年到123年，整個期程的預算是一千多億啦，但是114年度編列了五千多萬，這五千多萬也不該列入，為什麼？蘇花公路、蘇花安……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是整體的一個交通建設。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不能全部都列入，不是只有原住民在走啊，所以這個部分是需要去修正，我的建議是以後就不要列了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請主計長說明一下文字的記載跟統計出來的統計標準到底是什麼樣的依據，過去是怎樣處理，現在又是怎樣處理。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們一般都是以整體經費，大概裡面會談到哪一些區域是屬於原住民部落的部分，這個會特別備註而已啦。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長、主計長，還有各部會首長，真的要算的話，就以部落、家戶或個人為準，然後真正要去解決的，院長，真正要去解決的是這些啦，即平均收入的部分，原住民與非原住民的平均收入的差距、落差要怎麼樣去縮短，預算的編列、政策的執行推動，譬如粗在學率，原住民與非原住民學生粗在學率的差距拉大，107學年度是31.9%，現在是34%，還加大了，這個是我們要去解決的，教育多重要啊，對不對？提升原住民的相關生活就是靠教育，但是粗在學率越來越大，就是要去解決這些問題；還有住宅自有率，落差10%。所以預算的編列應以縮減原漢生活落差的差距，剛剛有講了，但沒有講到自來水普及率相關的這些，應該是往這個方向去努力，這個部分未來應該要覈實的編列。","接下來，原住民族懇求行政院，卑微的懇求行政院依法行政、依法編足預算，我們看到的這個是日月潭的照片，在日月潭非原住民的土地蓋大飯店，原住民的土地在上游，強制造林、禁止砍伐，我是以這個為例。事實上，我要讓院長知道，臺灣省政府民國82年就開始禁伐補償了，那時候是用要點，當初多少？每公頃2萬塊，到明年已經32年了，32年來物價指數各方面來算，6萬塊並不算高。113年6月4號韓院長主持朝野協商的時候，行政院各相關部會在場的，都沒有一個部會說可不可以先提高到4萬塊，沒有，議事紀錄都很清楚。既然修正了原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條，6月4號三讀通過，行政院未依憲法提覆議，我也謝謝過院長，對不對？你沒有提覆議，就是確認無窒礙難行。賴總統6月24號公布，院長你也副署了，你的大名在這裡，也副署了。所以預算的編列就應該編足，但是從公務預算28億，到實際在基金裡面用公務預算支用的二十七億多，如果以今年21億，3萬塊，所以應該要42億，所以是編列不足，不足約15億的經費。","原住民保留地禁伐補償條例，我剛剛講過，因為禁伐的區域是林業用地、保護區、水源特定區、國家公園區域，我們以森林法來講，禁止砍伐得請求補償，就是要補償，所以原住民族基本法第二十一條規定，限制原住民使用他的土地的時候，應由該主管機關來補償，是誰來補償？就是森林法的主管機關，就是水土保持法的主管機關，所以現在主管機關都是農業部，對不對？依照原基法，應該由農業部支應這個預算，現在放在原民會，然後又把它列在原民會的……院長或是主計長就是說原民會的預算成長太多，依法就應該，依法依原基法，原基法──原住民族基本法就我們原住民族而言是我們的憲法，就應該要由各部會來編列，所以這個部分依法也不應該用基金，為什麼呢？因為原基法第十八條規定，原發基金是作為經濟發展之業務，作為經濟貸款，很多年輕人要貸款，年輕人更需要，所以預算書也規定，原住民族綜合發展基金是預算法第四條第一項第二款第四目之特種基金，性質為「凡付出仍可收回」，禁伐補償付出去收不回來，所以綜合發展基金不可以使用。立法院做過決議，第9屆的時候做過決議，當時民進黨是絕對多數，也同意禁伐補償不能用基金，因為它違反預算法……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我跟委員報告，剛剛委員所說的，我是建議委員不必用「卑微」跟「懇求」四個字，我們只要互相尊重，在憲法跟法律底下，大家協商出一個原則，以後可以通用，行政院願意就大家朝野協商的方式，來尋求一個可行的辦法，我們願意。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：可行的辦法很簡單，就是修正預算，有案例，民國100年12月，行政院有案例，修正101年度的預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，或許有更簡明的……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那時候是修正多少呢？163億喔！那時候……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以有更好的方式來處理……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：現在只有15億。請院長，既然你認為……就我們原住民族而言……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以來協調更好的方式。總之，如何解決這個問題，是現在我們大家共同的一個期待……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是一個很卑微的懇求行政院依法編列預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：不必用卑微懇求。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：依法補足15億的預算。謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：我所要求的也是依法。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已詢答完畢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。11月5日（星期二）上午9時繼續開會，進行預算報告之質詢。現在休息。","休息（17時57分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":124,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","陳昭姿","李坤城","林思銘","林國成","陳冠廷","洪孟楷","張雅琳","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","林德福","王正旭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":22,"meetingDate":["2024-11-01"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00002","1138801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「114年\n度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─\n進行質詢 ─","agenda_id":"1138801_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}