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委。"],["李主任委員進勇：召委好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。今天本席聽到你回答很多委員質詢的內容，有幾點我一定要在這邊提出來，您在報告及答詢的時候一直強調，公投綁大選會有人與事的混淆，本席認為……"],["李主任委員進勇：失焦，會失焦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，你還特別講了會模糊焦點，針對這點，本席真的要好好的跟您就教，因為這個是你自己一廂情願的，第一個，怎麼會有所謂失焦的問題，因為像地方選舉，也是有5張選票啊，對不對？要選不同的人，其實很多時候選民選某個人也有很多因素啊，有的是因為候選人所提出的政見所以投給他，他的政見也是事啊，所以選舉，你一直強調公投綁大選是人跟事會模糊焦點，本席認為你這是強詞奪理，沒有這一回事啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：這個有實證的啦，有實證的研究。"],["徐委員欣瑩：在這裡，我覺得這一個部分，我們當然也可以公論啦，但是以我們選舉這麼多來看，選民就是投票，不管投人、投事，你只要清楚明瞭，他也清楚知道，讓他來選擇就對了，這是第一個。","第二個，剛剛你答詢的時候有提到，我們很多人都覺得公投綁大選可以節省整個社會資源跟成本，包含剛剛黃建賓委員也提到，不只是選務的經費，也包含了我們民眾自己的時間跟成本，因為如果要投票，現在也沒有不在籍投票，所以他們都要回到戶籍地……"],["李主任委員進勇：失去的會是選舉的品質啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，再來，您剛剛也提到，我先就耗費社會資源的部分，既然合在一起可以節省不管是民眾的成本或我們公帑，我們就應該考慮。接著你們就講到，公投綁大選的投票率高，投票率高就是民眾的參與度高，民眾參與度高，您剛剛也講，這個是核心價值，既然是核心價值就該維護啊，怎麼會核心價值，然後又因為其他次要的理由，你又把公投綁大選這個可以造成我們全民參與度高，其實全民參與度高也反映出一個，對他來說，他的成本也低，包含時間成本。再來，大家一直提到2018年那一次的選舉就是個大災難，這個大災難其實當年很多民眾也都反映，一個投票要他花二十分鐘、三十分鐘，對他來說就就很多了，你要他排一個半小時，甚至兩小時、兩個半小時，他根本沒辦法，所以2018年的選舉是因為選務沒有做好，所以本席……"],["李主任委員進勇：是因為量太大了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，既然知道量太大……"],["李主任委員進勇：最主要是量太大。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，你說得很好，既然量太大，我們就應該把它分流，把這個量減少啊！本來……"],["李主任委員進勇：分流有很多方式。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本來我可能一個投開票所……"],["李主任委員進勇：脫鉤就是分流的方式之一。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，那是其中一個，但是你脫鉤之後，你把全民參與度高的核心價值丟掉了，你怎麼……"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有丟掉……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有啊，你這個……"],["李主任委員進勇：讓他更能夠非常冷靜的、非常清楚的來做決定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你去看，過去只要脫鉤，他的投票率都不到50%，都沒有過半……"],["李主任委員進勇：這是議題設定的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你又要講議題，沒有，沒有議題的設定……"],["李主任委員進勇：有、有！"],["徐委員欣瑩：公投綁大選，不管什麼議題，全民的參與度就是高，所以……"],["李主任委員進勇：那就是焦點模糊了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這是你一廂情願的想法，大家去投票的時候，每一個人都有他的自主性，我投每一票，我都知道我在投什麼，民眾希望便利，我們站在維護整個公帑還有民眾的民脂民膏、納稅錢的角度，我們當然覺得公投綁大選，合在一起是可以又省時又省力。拉回來講，剛剛一直講2018是個大災難，那就是中選會的選務沒有做好，我們要中選會做什麼？你看喔，本席本來覺得選務、選政要合一，你們覺得沒關係，跟內政部溝通良好，選務、選政分開，那選務就是你中選會最大最大的工作目標，你的工作目標就是要把整個選務做好……"],["李主任委員進勇：報告委員，2018以前……"],["徐委員欣瑩：過去的災難你就要想辦法避免。"],["李主任委員進勇：2018以前有10個公投案合併選舉舉行，沒有發生選務的問題，只有2018發生。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，所以現在公投綁大選的這種情況也是可以避免這種龐大或者是投票要排很久的情況……"],["李主任委員進勇：所以量的問題一定要重視。"],["徐委員欣瑩：問題就出在你可以事先找好多一些的投開票地點，還有選務人員……"],["李主任委員進勇：已經增加二千個了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，選務人員也可以安排，開票的時候，開票的次序把它安排好，最重要的就是大家都覺得從這個方向，這一個點你就是不願意從這個角度來思考……"],["李主任委員進勇：有做，所以2020、2021、2022、2024都辦得很好，選務都辦得很好，就是有改進。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們希望公投綁大選你也能夠辦得很好，非不能也，不為也。而且主委，你應該知道天下無難事的下一句話是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：不是因為我個人……"],["徐委員欣瑩：天下無難事的下一句？請問你。"],["李主任委員進勇：不是我個人一廂情願、好大喜功的問題，而是必須要顧慮到很負責的選務的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：全國三十幾萬個選務人員共同的心聲，他們碰到的困難，我有責任要講出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好、對，這也是本席接下來要問你的，剛剛本席聽到你說你代表全國選務人員，所以全國選務人員都跟你反映嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：有，我們開過幾次檢討會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那就是2018年因為規劃不周，所以2018年中選會就被監察院糾正了嘛，所以你們的錯誤造成選務人員的怨聲載道……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們沒有意思要推卸責任，所以我們也在改進，但是除了改進之外……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，要持續改進，你不能改進到一半或者是不求改進，請問天下無難事的下一句話是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：登天很困難。"],["徐委員欣瑩：哈哈，天下無難事，登天很困難？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你自創的？好，沒關係，您的行為就是天下無難事，只要肯放棄，這就是我們中選會現在的作為……"],["李主任委員進勇：這不是我講的，這是委員講的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：天下無難事，只要肯放棄！而且如果真的中選會覺得把公投綁大選的選務做好如登天一般難的話，那中選會，譬如說如果主委這樣覺得，那你可以不要做，讓更有能力可以完成的人來做。所以現在這個部分如果我們委員會多數決通過，或者是我們立法院多數決通過，我們要請主委還是要帶領整個中選會，天下無難事，只怕有心人。"],["李主任委員進勇：我依法行政。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我就怕您是有心人，所以天下無難事的下一句話，你從小到大，你知道的是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：我不會那麼自大啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不會那麼自大？"],["李主任委員進勇：人的能力還是有一定的限制。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，再來，你剛剛最後還提說你代表全體國民，全體國民有告訴你說他們不要公投綁大選嗎？他們不要的是公投綁……"],["李主任委員進勇：我有這樣講嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：有、有、有，你剛剛……"],["李主任委員進勇：我是說出我們選務人員的心聲啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有、沒有，後來你也有，這個找錄影帶可以看，本席聽到你說你代表全體國民。"],["李主任委員進勇：那我要再看一下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以本席要說的是，全體國民對2018那一年的情況，他們確實覺得那個真的很慘，但是那個是因為選務工作沒有安排好，選務工作好好的安排，這個不是問題，可以分流……"],["李主任委員進勇：它可以解決部分，沒有辦法百分之百的解決，選務改革……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你就事先預判，事先規劃好，你連事先規劃的能力都沒有？"],["李主任委員進勇：選務改革已經做了很多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以也很好，今天這個答詢讓全民來公論，我們的政務官，我們中華民國的行政官員，我們明知的問題，他也看得出解決方案，但是不做就是不做，所以天下無難事，只要肯放棄……"],["李主任委員進勇：我做了，我們全國的公務人員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們不希望這個是我們行政官員的態度！"],["李主任委員進勇：全國的公務人員從2020、2021、2022、2024不斷的改進，而且效果非常的良好，舉世都給我們肯定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是全民的參與度都沒有超過50%，所以現在你們……"],["李主任委員進勇：滿意度達到85%。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們又要閹割民眾公投的權利嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：滿意度達到85%了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你那個滿意度85%是你自己說的。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們每一次選後都會做民調。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是現在民眾的參與度不到50%，你沒有得到過半民眾出來表達，這是很重要的問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：議題設定可能要多花點心思啦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你核心的價值不要丟掉，你自己說的。"],["李主任委員進勇：我就是要維護核心價值。"],["徐委員欣瑩：核心價值就是要越多人參與，而且本席覺得過50%還不夠，到60%……"],["李主任委員進勇：大家共同努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這樣出來的結果，就是我們多數民眾他們所表達的意見。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們選務在做改革啦，在做提升，自己提案人也必須要做議題的設定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦！本席還是很痛心的，請主委一定要能夠符合全民的期待，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：一直都是朝這個方向，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐召委的質詢，謝謝主委。","接下來請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-7","speakers":["徐欣瑩","羅智強","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張宏陸","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","吳琪銘","丁學忠","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","翁曉玲","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬\n具「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公民投票法部分\n條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等 18 人擬具「公民投票法第二十三條條文修正草案」\n案；五、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公民投票法第二十一條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}