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麼講?"},{"start":809.025,"end":836.073,"text":"因為報告我們沒有參與那是機密文件還是什麼?不曉得,國安會他有就是殷商的報告他們有拿到然後就是我們10月底問他們他們是說他們把相關的結果也簽成本我讓部長跟局長在這邊先跟你說明一下殷商的報告絕對是抄我們台灣的抄世襲的,一定是他憑什麼做出來?"},{"start":837.196,"end":864.145,"text":"不能憑空想像,是不是?他要賺蛋、水文、水流、氣候,很多因素都要考慮的是不是英國人特別聰明嗎?我不相信所以請局長去了解一下到行政院的進度你們要吹,不是說我不去問你們,你們去把馬祖大橋放在那個地方部長,生命是很短暫的小弟今年73歲了"},{"start":867.307,"end":884.3,"text":"我還剩下兩三年就不幹了,不幹了問題你這個大橋還在那邊給我拖,你是準備拖到我卸任還是怎麼樣?沒有,程序都在走,其實交通部這邊的程序已經走完,該走的程序都在走走完了你要追蹤啊,因為你是主政嘛會,會追蹤"},{"start":886.618,"end":913.707,"text":"你幫我問一下好不好好因為你的層次比較問得到啊局長的層次問不到他連打電話都不敢問啊你起碼問一下啊是卓院長嘛你一會碰到賴總統啊你說欸你有沒有做這樣的承諾啊你對陳委員有做這樣的承諾你對馬祖地區有做這樣的承諾不多啊一年30億嘛是不是我已經循規蹈矩的做成"},{"start":914.656,"end":922.665,"text":"按照程序,按照行政程序再走了那你的意思怎麼樣?要拿到立法院三讀通過嗎?"},{"start":923.973,"end":952.055,"text":"不要做成組決議吧?要嗎?現在程序已經在走,其實不太需要不要修法吧?應該不太需要要修離島建設條例來完成馬祖大橋嗎?應該不太需要應該不需要吧?對好不好,這個拜託部長那其他的我想等交通委員會考察因為颱風我還很擔心,本來要跟昭偉報告颱風不知道要在哪裡?不來了?昭偉金口昭偉說不來也不會來你不要說6號去"},{"start":954.403,"end":959.172,"text":"6號去,7號等一下颱風來回不來回不來我可以往大陸跑"},{"start":960.216,"end":983.506,"text":"那你們不能去大陸我可以往大陸從廈門我們就待在馬祖也不錯待在馬祖蠻好的希望天流客好不好7號天氣把它變壞把你們通通留在馬祖好不好我們來接待我已經準備了淡菜給你們吃馬祖沒別的好東西海裡面的魚已經都不見了好不好謝謝委員好那謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳委員"},{"start":987.376,"end":1002.586,"text":"馬祖相關的一個建設問題還蠻多的所以我們這個禮拜三禮拜四特別舉辦馬祖魔鬼營那個很多的問題拜託各位相關的首長把那個解決方案都要帶到馬祖因為馬祖前線民風飄漢大家注意一下好 謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":563,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時21分）謝謝主席，是不是請交通部陳部長？"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳委員雪生：還有航港局葉局長。"],["主席：航港局葉局長。"],["陳委員雪生：部長早安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員早。"],["陳委員雪生：我接續剛才廖委員的質詢，平潭的部分，上一次我到北京去跟對方聊到兩個，一個是馬祖先開，馬祖先讓它小三通進來；第二個就是平潭跟臺北之間的直航。我有跟葉局長討論過平潭到臺北的直航，現在我們講的是雙向，很像對等，問題是我們又沒有船要過去，人家有船要過來啊，為什麼我們不放，您知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：其實旅運上要有需求啦，我們的船不過去，可能旅運上還真的沒有那個需求在，臺灣人要去平潭的可能不多。"],["陳委員雪生：應該是這樣，會吐死了。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：那平潭要過來就讓他過來嘛，陸客來有什麼關係呢？"],["陳部長世凱：其實雙向……"],["陳委員雪生：它虧損起碼要虧1億、2億喔！"],["陳部長世凱：對，它那個會虧損其實聽起來不太合理啦！"],["陳委員雪生：它虧損是它的事啊！它有船啊，我們起碼沒有虧損嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：在虧損的狀態下，硬要開那個也是蠻怪的。"],["陳委員雪生：問題來了，這是對等的問題，你沒有船啊，它歡迎你也對等嘛，你也可以對等啊，你臺灣來一條船、我平潭來一條船，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：可是沒有需求啊！"],["陳委員雪生：你可以對等啊……"],["陳部長世凱：有需求就會有船啊！"],["陳委員雪生：你有船嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：現在問題是沒有需求。"],["陳委員雪生：你沒有船啊！"],["陳部長世凱：不是，有需求就會有船。"],["陳委員雪生：有需求也沒有船。"],["陳部長世凱：有需求自然航商就會去找船。"],["陳委員雪生：殺頭生意有人做，虧本生意沒人做的……"],["陳部長世凱：對，對，對，所以有需求、會賺錢……"],["陳委員雪生：沒有任何一條船要去跑，你問葉局長有沒有船要跑？"],["陳部長世凱：是，委員你在說的就是會虧錢嘛！"],["陳委員雪生：你起碼花1億到2億，我告訴你，1年至少1億到2億，你認為呢？它跑就讓它跑嘛，對不對？"],["葉局長協隆：報告委員，現在兩岸客運的部分，除了小三通之外，空運的直航也都是非常便捷，現在小三通的平均載客率大概只有六成左右，所以整個需求，特別是大三通……"],["陳委員雪生：你先不要講這個，你現在要講陸客不來吧，對不對？我上次到北京跟他們談，它說第一個馬祖先開放小三通；第二個就是平潭直航臺北。平潭直航臺北，它的船要過來，你不讓它過來啊，為什麼不讓它過來？你有對等的問題，我一條船去、你一條船過來，你讓它跑嘛！我跟你們講過了，平潭到臺北比福州到臺北更遠耶，會吐死啦，上船就發嘔吐袋，它跑幾次就停掉了，你何必給它一個藉口呢？它團客要來，你就讓它來嘛，是不是？我想這個層次當然是國安會的層次啦，我覺得部長應該要提一提，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：另外我們連江航業現在虧損多少錢？葉局長你知道嗎？"],["葉局長協隆：跟委員報告，依照縣府所提的這個數字，累積虧損大概1.1億左右。"],["陳委員雪生：對啊，它只有5,800萬，現在還要去向臺灣銀行借，它欠航商的錢，怎麼可以客戶在那裡不給……它沒有錢了，你懂了沒有？沒有錢，航港局依照大眾運輸條例，你有輔導它嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：我們有補助1年2.55億。"],["陳委員雪生：問題那個錢是不夠的，是不是請葉局長回去輪動式的再檢討一下，好不好？"],["葉局長協隆：是，跟委員報告，第一個，剛剛部長已經提到，我們大概每年編的是2.55億，包括離島基金跟公務預算，現在縣府這邊有提三個修正計畫，三個修正計畫合計要增加7,000萬……"],["陳委員雪生：沒關係，這個我們交通委員會考察之後還會提出來，好不好？"],["葉局長協隆：這個部分，我們會再協助縣府，現在在審查中。"],["陳委員雪生：葉局長，因為時間快到了，你請回，好不好？主席，是不是請觀光署署長？"],["主席：周署長。"],["周署長永暉：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，現任的王忠銘縣長，他當風景管理處處長的時候，旅宿補助大概1年淡季補助2,000到2,500萬，但是他卸任以後就沒了。我不曉得是風景管理處處長的能力有問題，還是觀光署這邊剋扣而去補助其他的。當然周署長跟我講了，花蓮現在風災嚴重，但是風災不嚴重的時候，我們也沒有啊！去年沒風災的時候，我們也沒有啊！署長，很慘耶！老百姓都罵死了，我們不是不努力，我們非常的努力，縣政府非常的努力，我們一直在拓展觀光，現在這樣的情況，你多多少少給我們一點，好不好？"],["周署長永暉：在硬體方面，其實我們一直支持馬祖的再建設；另外，軟體的部分，我們也有很多活動補助；針對秋冬的部分……"],["陳委員雪生：不是，活動補助是活動補助喔！我講的是旅宿的補助啊！行之有年了……"],["周署長永暉：對，因為旅宿的部分，基本上我們還是希望引客來，策略上除了花蓮算是比較災區啦……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，我想請署長回去討論一下，我們等交通建設考察的時候再來，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：旅宿補助的部分，我們再討論，看有需要加碼，我們再來加碼，好不好？"],["陳委員雪生：主席，對不起啊，我再耽誤點時間，請民航局何局長，署長請回，謝謝。","11月6號馬高航線首航，部長，你覺得這個首航是10班次包機包完就結束？"],["陳部長世凱：上次有跟委員報告，我們還會再加。"],["陳委員雪生：會加？"],["陳部長世凱：會再加，會再加。"],["陳委員雪生：現在我們沒錢了，我先跟你報告一下，它第二預備金已經動支500萬，它的第二預備金已經用光了……"],["陳部長世凱：這個我曉得，當時有……"],["陳委員雪生：所以拜託部長找民航局、找觀光署吧！"],["陳部長世凱：有承諾至少到元旦假期。"],["陳委員雪生：怎麼困難啊？你減班都可以，現在一個禮拜三班，我同意可以減班。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：還有一個問題，阿兵哥在南部，指揮官跟我講，軍人有八百多人是南部的子弟，問題來了，他禮拜三還禮拜五放假，我說我們航班可以配合他們，沒關係嘛！我們這個航班開航不只是為了我們老百姓，我們也為了軍人，但軍人的問題在哪裡呢？包機，國防部不給錢，如果是固定航班，他們很像是可以的，所以是不是等包機完畢以後，何局長，你還要第二次包機嗎？我覺得這個600萬，再加上來回的機票起碼七百多萬，你告訴華信，叫它算個成本給你聽聽看，好不好？怎麼來，怎麼去，我們不希望它虧損，但是也不要暴利嘛，是不是？"],["何局長淑萍：委員講到有關包機再延長的部分，我們11月中會來開會，第一個還是中油加油的問題要先來解決，因為不解決的話，一架飛機有70個座位只能載50個人，它在損益兩平上其實不容易達到，然後……"],["陳委員雪生：您告訴中油，好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：對，這個部分我們會邀中油來開會。"],["陳委員雪生：全中華民國，哪一個油品公司……中油沒有，只有馬祖是馬油，你告訴它如果不行，明年1月1號我們宣布馬祖油品公司回歸中油，回歸國有，好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：好，這部分我們會開會。然後另外一個就是包機的延長，剛剛部長也提到、委員也關心的部分，也謝謝觀光署給我們的一點費用，我們會儘量在現有那個部分來衡量，看如何規劃。"],["陳委員雪生：局長，你注意聽。"],["何局長淑萍：是。"],["陳委員雪生：部長答應我了，包機10趟以後還會包，我的希望不是包，我希望能夠成立固定航線，你每個禮拜即使飛一班，我也能夠接受，即使飛一班，我也能夠接受。"],["何局長淑萍：定期航線的部分……"],["陳委員雪生：一個禮拜飛一班，你用定期航線，然後把油料的問題解決，中油我會問它。"],["何局長淑萍：定期航線的部分，我們會再評估。"],["陳委員雪生：票價把它降下來，降到3,200，載客率載到70個人。關於你考慮的因素，臺北飛過去，萬一那邊氣候不好怎麼飛回高雄，這個問題你去跟華信討論好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：好。"],["陳委員雪生：但是包機不能夠停掉。"],["何局長淑萍：定期的部分我們再評估，因為也是要有穩定的客源支持。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，你剛才回答我的，包機不會停嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：最少到1月1號。"],["陳委員雪生：到1月1號？"],["陳部長世凱：到元旦假期。"],["陳委員雪生：那元旦假期以後就停啦？"],["陳部長世凱：目前預算還沒到，所以明年的部分……"],["陳委員雪生：那啟航典禮會很難看耶，這不只是我個人喔，許智傑委員也有很大的意見耶，所以我告訴你，不能停，繼續好不好？即使一個禮拜一班，用定期航線的方式來處理。"],["陳部長世凱：我們來討論。"],["陳委員雪生：這個繼續一下好不好？不能停喔！","還有，北竿機場擴建方案已經通過了，要啟動建設計畫，請問部裡面啟動建設計畫了沒有？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，關於北竿計畫的實施，因為我們第一期……基本上我們現在會跟港務公司，請他幫我們……"],["陳委員雪生：還在港務公司？"],["何局長淑萍：沒有，我們現在已經決定要辦，明（114）年會開始做基本設計跟細設的案子，117年縣府會把封山的垃圾場遷移，民航局118年會做都市計畫，然後就會動工。"],["陳委員雪生：這些都是建設計畫裡面的一環，對不對？"],["何局長淑萍：對，我們也會去處理委員跟馬祖地區比較關心的，也就是施工期間要關閉機場以及相關配套，還有施工期關閉機場的期間可不可以縮短，這個我們都會在施工期間跟廠商討論。"],["陳委員雪生：這一次交通委員會考察，我想何局長也會去嘛，我請北竿鄉鄉長跟鄉代會主席也要列席，他們把相關配套……他們的需求是什麼，我讓他們在會中向局長報告，好不好？報告了以後，你拿回去參考，有一些法令允許、有一些法令不允許的，起碼第一個依法行政；第二個要因地制宜，你要考慮到當地民眾關場以後所衍生的一些問題，商家、旅館、現有的公務員、場站的消防員等等，還有渡海要回去南竿，坐飛機通勤的問題，還有北竿民眾坐飛機的權益，他在北竿只有一班飛機，他隨時都可以登機就走了，但是這個機場如果只有在南竿的話，他坐飛機的位置能不能給他保留位等等，這些配套問題，我拜託何局長你併案來研究，好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：好，這部分我們跟縣府還有鄉代表等討論，我們蒐集到意見以後會來做整體評估。"],["陳委員雪生：好，港務公司董事長也來了，您有沒有配合民航局？"],["李董事長賢義：工程的部分，我們全力的配合，因為……"],["陳委員雪生：動作快一點，好不好？"],["李董事長賢義：是，只要是OK的話……"],["陳委員雪生：都用最速件來處理好不好？"],["李董事長賢義：目前有前置作業。"],["陳委員雪生：因為箭在弦上，我們非常希望動作快一點點，拜託啦！"],["李董事長賢義：是，全力以赴。"],["陳委員雪生：好，你們兩位請回。","部長，關於落地簽，賴總統在823的時候到金門去，移民署好像同意落地簽，大陸委員會邱主委也有講到開放金門落地簽，我在馬祖跟他提了幾次，他都沒提到落地簽，落地簽跟大陸民眾能不能來馬祖旅遊有很大的關係，這都是配套，回去你請觀光署就落地簽的部分跟移民署磋商，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：對，這個部分要……"],["陳委員雪生：還有我們在福州也有派駐人員在那邊，請他們積極的招商過來好不好？這很重要的。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：那署長跟董事長請回。部長，我另外再問你一個問題。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：馬祖大橋，後來你去問了沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：我去問了，它還是在國發會。"],["陳委員雪生：國發會回來了啊，英商那個已經回來了啊！"],["陳部長世凱：那可是……"],["陳委員雪生：他說第三方的簽證啊！"],["陳部長世凱：國發會報院了嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：國發會簽院了。"],["陳委員雪生：英商怎麼講？"],["陳局長文瑞：因為報告的部分我們沒有參與。"],["陳委員雪生：那是機密文件還是什麼？"],["陳局長文瑞：不曉得，國發會有拿到英商的報告，他們有拿到，我們10月底問他們，他們說他們把相關的結果簽呈……"],["陳委員雪生：部長跟局長，在這邊先跟你們說明一下，英商的報告絕對是抄我們台灣世曦的，一定是！他憑什麼做出來？不能憑空想像嘛，是不是？他們要鑽探、水文、水流、氣候，很多因素都要考慮的，是不是？英國人特別聰明嗎？我不相信。請局長了解一下行政院的進度。你們要催啊！不是說我不問你們，你們就把馬祖大橋放在那個地方，部長。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：生命是很短暫的，小弟今年73歲了。"],["陳部長世凱：您是大哥，不是小弟。"],["陳委員雪生：我還剩下兩、三年就不幹了，問題是你這個大橋還在那邊給我拖，你是準備拖到我卸任還是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有，程序都在走，其實交通部這邊的程序已經走完，該走的程序都走完了。"],["陳委員雪生：走完了你要追蹤啊，因為你是主政嘛。"],["陳部長世凱：會，會追蹤。"],["陳委員雪生：你幫我問一下好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：因為你的層次比較問得到，局長的層次問不到，他連打電話都不敢問啊，你起碼問一下卓院長嘛，你也會碰到賴總統，你說：你有沒有做這樣的承諾啊？你對陳委員有做這樣的承諾，你對馬祖地區有做這樣的承諾。不多啊，一年30億嘛，是不是？我已經循規蹈矩的按照行政程序在走了，你們的意思是怎麼樣？要拿到立法院三讀通過嗎？不要作成主決議吧？要嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：現在程序已經在走，其實不太需要……"],["陳委員雪生：不用修法吧？"],["陳部長世凱：應該不太需要。"],["陳委員雪生：要修離島建設條例來完成馬祖大橋嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：應該不太需要。"],["陳委員雪生：應該不需要吧？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員雪生：拜託部長，好不好？其他的我想等交通委員會考察，因為颱風，我還很擔心，本來要跟召委報告，颱風不曉得到哪裡……"],["主席：不來了。"],["陳委員雪生：啊？不來了？召委金口……"],["陳部長世凱：召委說不來就不會來。"],["陳委員雪生：不要說6號去，等一下7號颱風來，我們就回不來了，回不來我可以往大陸跑，你們不能去大陸，對不對？我可以往大陸，從廈門……"],["陳部長世凱：我們就待在馬祖也不錯。"],["陳委員雪生：待在馬祖喔？"],["陳部長世凱：蠻好的。"],["陳委員雪生：好，希望天留客，7號天氣變壞，把你們通通留在馬祖，好不好？我們來接待，我已經準備了淡菜給你們吃，馬祖沒別的好東西，海裡面的魚都已經不見了。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝部長、謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。馬祖相關的建設問題還蠻多的，所以我們這個禮拜三、禮拜四特別舉辦馬祖魔鬼營，很多問題都要拜託各位相關首長，把解決方案帶到馬祖，因為馬祖前線民風剽悍，大家注意一下，謝謝陳委員。","接下來有請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-8","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","何欣純","游顥","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","王鴻薇","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","麥玉珍","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林月琴","陳冠廷","黃國昌","林倩綺","黃健豪"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光署署長、交通部民用航空局局長、交通部航港局局長、\n國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長、桃園國際機場股份有限\n公司董事長、臺灣港務股份有限公司董事長、外交部、內政部國家公園署、農業部林業及自然保\n育署及行政院消費者保護處就「如何提升國外旅客來台觀光人數暨優化國旅體驗及降低旅遊消費\n爭議」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部觀光署署長、交通部公路局局長、交通部高速\n公路局局長、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長及桃園國際\n機場股份有限公司董事長就「2025台灣燈會辦理情形暨交通疏運方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}