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12:41:56","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光署署長、交通部民用航空局局長、交通部航港局局長、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長、桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長、臺灣港務股份有限公司董事長、外交部、內政部國家公園署、農業部林業及自然保育署及行政院消費者保護處就「如何提升國外旅客來台觀光人數暨優化國旅體驗及降低旅遊消費爭議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部觀光署署長、交通部公路局局長、交通部高速公路局局長、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長及桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長就「2025台灣燈會辦理情形暨交通疏運方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.30471875,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.469093750000001,"end":21.664718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.640343750000003,"end":16.652843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.70159375,"end":30.794093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":29.511593750000003,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.35096875,"end":42.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.775343750000005,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.42034375,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.38221875,"end":49.322843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.69409375,"end":52.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.360343750000006,"end":55.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.524093750000006,"end":66.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.67471875000001,"end":66.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.99096875000001,"end":67.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.64909375,"end":68.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.23534375,"end":70.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.24346875,"end":76.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.60534375,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.48659375000001,"end":85.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.18221875,"end":87.83159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.33784375,"end":91.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.88159375000001,"end":93.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.48471875,"end":99.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.99846875,"end":101.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.70284375,"end":106.98471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.35596875,"end":108.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.48659375000001,"end":108.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.48221875,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.97159375000001,"end":112.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.39346875000001,"end":110.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.09346875000001,"end":122.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.50971875,"end":122.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.56034375,"end":126.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.88034375000001,"end":138.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.45659375,"end":142.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.01284375,"end":144.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.24034375000002,"end":148.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.59846875000002,"end":149.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.13409375,"end":153.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.09534375,"end":156.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.51284375,"end":158.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.84159375000002,"end":161.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.13221875000002,"end":164.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.20346875,"end":167.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.98784375000002,"end":171.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.44284375,"end":176.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.50534375,"end":178.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.97346875000002,"end":182.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.87159375000002,"end":186.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.66846875000002,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.78659375,"end":189.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.72721875000002,"end":188.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.45284375,"end":197.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.43034375000002,"end":199.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.83096875,"end":203.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.12971875000002,"end":205.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.93971875000003,"end":207.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.62721875000003,"end":208.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.97284375,"end":209.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.98971875,"end":210.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.96846875,"end":212.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.72346875000002,"end":223.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.29971875,"end":225.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.78471875000002,"end":226.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.69596875000002,"end":231.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.33221875,"end":232.73721875}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Pass你知道嗎日本的觀光客有多少比例用新幹線或者說在日本搭乘新幹線的乘客當中外國觀光客佔多少有沒有概念日本的我不曉得來周署長你們有沒有去過比較"},{"start":57.52,"end":75.328,"text":"台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署署署長、外交部國家公園署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署"},{"start":77.782,"end":98.629,"text":"還是你們的高鐵的乘客當中有多少是外國觀光客有沒有做過統計高鐵目前銷售的話我們的外國觀光客48萬人次好往下看你不是問你多少比例告訴你日本2023年的日本觀光客超過2500萬5兆的日元消費大概大成新幹線的日本觀光客佔他們總體新幹線的用量的兩成"},{"start":100.046,"end":126.057,"text":"那在我們疫情前大家高鐵的旅客當中外國的旅客只佔3.5%部長你看了有什麼感覺是當然比例上來看我們是比較低啦為什麼因為日本對國外的旅客來講可能使用台灣的這個高鐵的票可能沒有那麼方便或者是沒有那麼容易很多種可能我要說的是說因為當觀光客到日本搭新幹線非常划算"},{"start":126.957,"end":153.5,"text":"所以我們去日本觀光很喜歡自由行往下看但是我今天要問的是另外一個問題高鐵的運量從2007年1555萬的人次到去年是7308萬我們的搭車的人數啊我們搭乘的人數一直在成長最近這10年你看一下我們的運能人數在成長了50%以上可是發車的班次只有增加10%你知道這意味著什麼嗎"},{"start":155.131,"end":182.097,"text":"班次增加的少可是人載的人增加很多是表示每一班車都載更多的人都要到什麼程度你知道嗎請看下一張高鐵的營運過後趕不上去的成長啊34組列車每組12個車廂可以提供將近1000個座位去年以來從班次從1016班增加到1060班成長的多車班成長的少所以旅客就要坐在廁所外面了"},{"start":182.95,"end":197.303,"text":"那請問要怎麼解決這個問題 有沒有辦法再增加更多的班次 可不可以必須要增加列車組才有辦法再增加更多是的 要增加列車組才能增加班次嘛 對不對請問你這12組的列車是太舊換新 還是34加12 以後有46組在服務應該是34加12那這34的舊的有沒有要太舊換新時間還沒到時間還沒到 什麼時候會到"},{"start":210.131,"end":230.946,"text":"來往下看35年嘛可以使用35年所以我希望你們呢好好的高鐵啊去要求他一下新採購的列出是什麼算出來的你這12組怎麼算出來的是按照我們的運量的需求成長算出來的嗎我先問一下有沒有聽過路線容量跟利用率台鐵該不會告訴我台鐵的路線容量跟利用率是多少說得出來吧杜總長有沒有"},{"start":234.033,"end":252.97,"text":"什麼是路線容量你解釋給大家聽是我們各路線的路線容量跟利用率不太一樣不過平均起來我們現在的路線容量有到達85%以上那利用率呢利用率大概超過6成7好你能告訴大家什麼是路線容量跟利用率嗎"},{"start":253.989,"end":281.681,"text":"呃 可以啊你請簡短的說路線容量就是我們在每一個路段我們所能開行的這個列次對那利用率就是用它多少利用率就是就是這個這些班次上面客人搭乘的一個情形高鐵有沒有高鐵能不能告訴大家你的路線容量是多少你的利用率多少說得出來嗎我們現在的承載率我們分平日跟假日沒有我是問你路線容量跟利用率你有沒有告訴我台鐵說得出來你說得出來嗎"},{"start":283.069,"end":301.031,"text":"你說不出來嘛 因為我公文去要 看下一張啊我去鐵道局要啊 要不到啊如果一個軌道的運輸業者搞不清楚自己的路線容量搞不清楚自己的利用率你告訴我現在可以跑30組列車你告訴我未來可以跑46組列車基礎在哪裡 部長知道原因了喔再看下一頁"},{"start":302.506,"end":315.53,"text":"今天我們要談臺灣的高鐵各站的停站量停站班次對不對你看到了沒有我們大概都60、61是不是這樣子這六都嘛你覺得台南46會不會太多還是太少不曉得那你覺得屏東多少才恰當停車班次跟彰化雲林一樣多好不好可不可以"},{"start":328.598,"end":339.811,"text":"我屏東也不敢太大野心我不敢要求要跟左營一樣60班次啦你要是給我跟彰化和雲林有17個班次就夠了請問如果要滿足屏東的需求你要多採購幾輛列車"},{"start":343.391,"end":361.94,"text":"這就是問題我們都一直以為屏東設站在考慮路線其實你要考慮到屏東縣州縣長說得好你的路線A案B案他說不管能夠趕快訂案就是好案按照運量來決定你停靠的次一個班次容量我們往下看有沒有聽過驗鈔方案驗鈔方案跟其他的左營案跟高雄案最大不同是什麼"},{"start":367.433,"end":393.471,"text":"縣巢方案到了縣巢往兩邊岔會去高雄左營的就不會來屏東會到屏東的就不會來高雄左營那表示什麼表示如果你是走高雄段或新左營岸或高雄岸高雄有60班屏東就有60班需要嗎屏東只要17、18班就可以了所以縣巢案的優點在哪裡你只要考慮屏東需要的運能運量同不同意"},{"start":396.24,"end":417.653,"text":"了解了沒有部長了解了沒有我最後要結束了因為主席站起來了因為他那個有主橋要改變有工程上面的問題我是說路線的部分要考慮到你未來的人客乘客的市場規模我們屏東不是南港會到台北的都會到南港但是不需要會到左營的都會來屏東"},{"start":418.593,"end":446.986,"text":"只要能夠服務就好往下看最後一個你知道臺北的那個日本的新幹線從1960年代到2020年代60年代間他們的車廂的列車的進化是這樣子的他的路線從開開始500公里到現在3000公里所以拜託部長高鐵要永續發展請看下一張我們要從軌道的長度跟車廂的進化列車的進化同步考量所以三個結論燕超案本來就有請交通部回顧可以嗎"},{"start":448.487,"end":472.659,"text":"路線規劃除了考慮工程之外要考慮營運可以嗎可以所以臺鐵跟臺灣永不有同步永續發展這是唯一的考量最後的這幾個問題你倒回去為了你們新站點的設置計劃為了你們採購列車的太舊歡欣的騎乘規劃為了你們攀勢成長的調度計劃以及你們延伸軌道服務的區域計劃還有後勤人力的招募計劃可不可以上去那裡給個答案可以可以可以委員沒問題謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":965,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時34分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請交通部陳部長，還有觀光署周署長以及鐵道局的楊局長。"],["主席：有請陳部長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外請臺鐵的杜董事長和高鐵的顏資深副總在旁邊協助。部長好、署長好、局長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我請教你一下，你有沒有去過日本？"],["陳部長世凱：去過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你去日本是當觀光客，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是，當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你會不會去搭他的新幹線？"],["陳部長世凱：會，搭過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我當觀光客每次去日本，我一定買他的JR Pass。你知道嗎？日本的觀光客有多少比例用新幹線，或者在日本搭乘新幹線的乘客當中，外國觀光客占多少？有沒有概念？"],["陳部長世凱：日本的我不曉得。"],["鍾委員佳濱：周署長，你們有沒有比較過？"],["周署長永暉：他的JR Pass裡面占的比例很高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很高？"],["周署長永暉：不僅如此，他還有三大系統，除了JR系統之外，還有大私鐵系統、軌道系統。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問一下台灣高鐵顏資深副總，請問一下，你知道外國來臺灣的觀光客有多少使用高鐵嗎？還是高鐵的乘客當中，有多少是外國觀光客？有沒有做過統計？"],["顏資深副總經理昭立：高鐵目前外國觀光客的銷售量是48萬人次。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是問你多少比例？告訴你，日本2023年觀光客超過2,500萬人次，創造5兆日圓的消費，搭乘新幹線的觀光客占日本總體新幹線用量的兩成。那在疫情前搭高鐵的旅客當中，外國旅客只占3.5%。部長，你看了什麼感覺？為什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：當然從比例上來看，我們是比較低。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼？因為日本……"],["陳部長世凱：對國外的旅客來講，使用台灣高鐵的票可能沒有那麼方便，或者是沒有那麼容易。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有很多種可能，我要說的是，因為當觀光客到日本搭新幹線非常划算，所以我們去日本觀光很喜歡自由行。但我今天要問的是另外一個問題，高鐵的運量從2007年1,555萬人次，到去年是7,308萬，搭乘的人數一直在成長，你看一下，最近這10年運能人數成長50%以上，可是發車的班次只有增加10%，你知道這意味著什麼嗎？班次增加的少，可是載的人增加很多，是不是表示每一班車都載更多的人？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多到什麼程度，你知道嗎？高鐵的營運規劃趕不上需求的成長，34組列車、每組12個車廂，可以提供將近1,000個座位，去年以來班次從1,016班增加到1,060班，人次成長得多，車班成長得少，所以旅客就要坐在廁所外面，請問要怎麼解決這個問題？有沒有辦法再增加更多的班次？可不可以？"],["陳部長世凱：必須要增加列車組，才有辦法再增加更多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要增加列車組，才能增加班次，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問這12組列車是汰舊換新，還是34加12，以後有46組在服務？"],["陳部長世凱：應該是34加12。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這34組舊的有沒有要汰舊換新？"],["陳部長世凱：時間還沒到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼時候會到？"],["陳部長世凱：可以使用35年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我希望你們好好要求一下高鐵，新採購的列車數是怎麼算出來的？這12組怎麼算出來的？是按照運量的需求成長算出來的嗎？我先問一下，有沒有聽過路線容量跟利用率？臺鐵可不可以告訴我，臺鐵的路線容量跟利用率是多少？杜董事長，說得出來吧？有沒有？你解釋路線容量給大家聽。"],["杜董事長微：各路線的路線容量跟利用率不太一樣，不過平均起來，我們現在的路線容量到達85%以上。"],["鍾委員佳濱：利用率呢？"],["杜董事長微：利用率超過六成七。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你能告訴大家，什麼是路線容量跟利用率嗎？"],["杜董事長微：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請簡短的說。"],["杜董事長微：路線容量就是我們在每一個路段所能開行的列次。"],["鍾委員佳濱：利用率就是用了多少。"],["杜董事長微：利用率就是這些班次客人搭乘的情形。"],["鍾委員佳濱：高鐵有沒有？高鐵能不能告訴大家，你的路線容量是多少？你的利用率多少？說得出來嗎？"],["顏資深副總經理昭立：我們現在的乘載率分平日跟假日……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，我只問路線容量跟利用率，你能不能告訴我？臺鐵說得出來，你說得出來嗎？你說不出來嘛！因為我發公文去跟鐵道局要，卻要不到，如果一個軌道的運輸業者搞不清楚自己的路線容量、搞不清楚利用率，你告訴我現在可以跑34組列車、未來可以跑46組列車，基礎在哪裡？部長知道原因了吧！"],["陳部長世凱：知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：今天我們要談臺灣的高鐵各站停站量、停站班次，對不對？你看到了沒有，大概都60、61，是不是這樣子？這六都嘛！你覺得臺南46會不會太多，還是太少？不曉得！你覺得屏東停的班次多少才恰當？跟彰化、雲林一樣多，好不好？可不可以？屏東不敢有太大野心，我不敢要求要跟左營一樣60班次，你要是給我跟彰化、雲林一樣，有17個班次就夠了。請問如果要滿足屏東的需求，你要多採購幾輛列車？這就是問題，我們都一直以為屏東設站在考慮路線，其實你要考慮到……屏東縣周縣長說得好，你的路線A案、B案，他說：不管，能夠趕快定案就是好案。按照運量來決定停靠的班次容量。有沒有聽過燕巢方案？燕巢方案跟其他的左營案、高雄案最大不同是什麼？燕巢方案是到了燕巢會往兩邊岔，會去高雄左營的就不會來屏東，會到屏東的就不會來高雄左營，表示如果你是走高雄段的新左營案或高雄案，高雄有60班，屏東就有60班，需要嗎？屏東只要17、18班就可以了，所以燕巢案的優點在哪裡？你只要考慮屏東需要的運能、運量，同不同意？瞭解了沒有？部長，瞭解了沒有？最後我要結束了，因為主席站起來了。"],["陳部長世凱：因為它有主橋要改變，有工程上面的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是說路線的部分要考慮到未來的人客、乘客的市場規模，屏東不是南港，會到臺北的都會到南港，但是不需要會到左營的都會來屏東，只要能夠服務就好。最後，你知道日本的新幹線從1960年代到2020年代，60年代間他們的車廂列車進化是這樣子的，它的路線從剛開始500公里到現在3,000公里。所以拜託部長，高鐵要永續發展，我們要從軌道的長度及車廂的進化、列車的進化同步考量。最後三個結論，燕巢案本來就有，請交通部回顧，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：路線規劃除了考慮工程之外，也要考慮營運，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：高鐵與臺灣同步永續發展，這是唯一的考量。最後的這幾個問題你帶回去，未來新站點的設置計畫、未來採購列車汰舊換新的期程規劃、未來班次成長的調度計畫以及延伸軌道服務的區域計畫，還有後勤人力的招募計畫，可不可以三個月內給個答案？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，可以提供給委員，沒問題，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","再來有請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-8","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","何欣純","游顥","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","王鴻薇","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","麥玉珍","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林月琴","陳冠廷","黃國昌","林倩綺","黃健豪"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光署署長、交通部民用航空局局長、交通部航港局局長、\n國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長、桃園國際機場股份有限\n公司董事長、臺灣港務股份有限公司董事長、外交部、內政部國家公園署、農業部林業及自然保\n育署及行政院消費者保護處就「如何提升國外旅客來台觀光人數暨優化國旅體驗及降低旅遊消費\n爭議」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部觀光署署長、交通部公路局局長、交通部高速\n公路局局長、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長及桃園國際\n機場股份有限公司董事長就「2025台灣燈會辦理情形暨交通疏運方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}