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實現當然是要努力啊但是有目標有規劃才能努力才能達成嘛目標是可以目標是很清楚那10層我們要想辦法在一個法定的基礎底下能夠推動那10層才能夠定得出來"},{"start":387.389,"end":415.162,"text":"所以都是說努力跟推廣但是我們是依法嘛所以我要請教一下我們現在你摸著院長摸著良心講你的眼睛有沒有有我你的眼裡有沒有我有嗎在這個議事廳裡面接著對話的就是你跟我有沒有只有只有你委員跟我在對話你眼裡有沒有我"},{"start":417.601,"end":429.987,"text":"這個回家不好交代不好交代所以呢你眼裡有我是正常人因為你看著我你眼裡有我是正常人如果沒有的話你要去看醫生了那這樣講是說我的眼前有你不能說眼裡有我"},{"start":435.309,"end":450.443,"text":"對,你眼裡有我,就是你表示你的心裡會把新住民發展署放在心裡。如果你的眼裡沒有看到我的話,你的心裡就把新住民變成惡等。我眼前,眼前我們是在對話,新住民發展署我們會放在心裡,這樣子。"},{"start":451.084,"end":453.645,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間．麥玉珍二、上午9時為國是論壇時間．麥玉珍"},{"start":472.851,"end":480.83,"text":"所以在接下來我請教一下我們的院長我們中華民國的中華民國是法治國家對嗎?"},{"start":482.409,"end":507.514,"text":"所以我們站在這裏對話,民主最高的電台,當然是啊!如果是法治國家,是不是我們都要遵守我們的法律的規定,包含你,是嗎?沒錯!好,如果是這樣子的話,比如說萬一院長你開車出去撞死人了,是警察馬上辦,還是要通過行政院同意才能辦?"},{"start":510.579,"end":533.891,"text":"現行犯警察馬上說起來好馬上說起來所以呢所以我們如果是法治國家我們要不要就是依法來去編列預算為什麼你不編我很納悶所以我想要了解因為你讀法律比我懂為什麼為什麼不依法不照法律來編列再度提醒委員預算法91條的規定"},{"start":536.701,"end":551.317,"text":"立法院在對行政院審查預算法律的時候對於稅出有增加稅出的時候必須徵詢行政院的意見同時要指出彌補資金之來源換句話說"},{"start":555.083,"end":571.57,"text":"委員在審查預算或是法案的時候所以你是依法行政嘛 對不對有兩個要件一個要徵詢行政院的意見一個要找出增加這筆預算它的資金來源在哪裡好 所以你是依法行政嘛 是嗎"},{"start":572.89,"end":588.247,"text":"要依這個法行政?好,你依法行政的話,這樣子我們的法律通過的是多少萬?幾萬?我們經法補償是幾萬?依法通過的?6萬。所以你有依法去編列嗎?那3萬的來源在哪裡?"},{"start":590.529,"end":615.73,"text":"三萬的來源,彌補資金的來源,增加的三萬來源在哪裡?我現在問你的是依法編列嘛。依法就要指出三萬的來源在哪裡,我才能依法啊。對,依法來源在哪裡,你自己要去想辦法。哪有這種事?我編了預算,你把它增加,叫我自己來源去想辦法。剛才,因為我的門的助理很厲害啦,他知道說你一定要回我就是91條還有70條。"},{"start":618.072,"end":631.479,"text":"但是呢我要跟你講的明確的用於預算法不包含法律法律案預算案不包含法律案所以預算案呢第91條"},{"start":633.28,"end":652.776,"text":"也就是要求立法委員徵詢行政院的意見而非取得同意所以立法院三讀通過後行政院或有異議在10天內提出覆議你沒有提出覆議表示你同意"},{"start":653.916,"end":682.548,"text":"你有同意,你覺得有這個預算你要去算嘛,對不對?委員這一天,那一天我們在參敘中都講得很清楚你只記得你的問題,你從來不瞭解我的答案對,你說,再講一次,讓大家聽到我知道你說為什麼行政院不提出復議那天我也說了,我想用其他的方式其他的方式還有很多那提出復議其他方式我們有沒有依法?"},{"start":683.957,"end":705.567,"text":"對,要依法,為什麼我們不要依法去編列,再來明年你再提出來其他方式呢?因為我們今年是我們依法,我們要拜託你依法,你說疑心不忍嘛,對不對?我現在,我也疑心不忍,因為呢,之前你還記得2019年你當"},{"start":708.53,"end":721.367,"text":"民進黨的主席我是因為你我才加入民進黨的因為很多人推薦我但是有一個人跟我講說要跟卓院長也要去學習他當"},{"start":723.59,"end":723.87,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間"},{"start":740.296,"end":743.64,"text":"我覺得我現在最重要的工作就是建立一套"},{"start":757.877,"end":783.215,"text":"兩院互動的關係一定要在憲法跟法律的基礎底下我們希望依法來去編列剛才你有講依法是多少?是6萬但是你沒有依法4萬從哪裡來?我們看不到委員你可以再請教你那個厲害的助理那增加了3萬資金來源在哪裡?資金來源在哪裡?如果你富裕你就來說明但是你沒有富裕表示你心裡有數"},{"start":784.636,"end":800.901,"text":"復議的原因我已經講過了,如果我復議,就表示說這個程序是合理的。好,我要問你,如果是說進法補償金,它是針對原住民本來就是有必要要去補償的,對不對?"},{"start":802.521,"end":819.331,"text":"對,原來的法律,立法後也是原來的法律,但是這些人是不是有必要的,必要要補償他們,是不是必要?不管3萬還是6萬,你再跟我講,必要的還是不必要的?對,必要的,你說必要的是..."},{"start":824.454,"end":831.176,"text":"任何一個補助的案件都不應該從3萬加到6萬。但是呢,必要的我們要去給他們。預算的是不是必要的?"},{"start":847.888,"end":874.593,"text":"還沒有執行嘛預算就像說你要給的就是現在3兆多你要給的是誰就是我們的電視台還有媒體還有就是打仗還有其他等等你預算的預算的算不算土利廠商你還沒有必要給的你預算的算不算土利"},{"start":877.113,"end":888.106,"text":"立法院在審查預算的時候是!所以審查預算是預算預算還沒有說執行你就覺得這個預算要給他們但是呢預算是圖利廠商那這樣想起來"},{"start":893.732,"end":897.294,"text":"從來沒有人說進法補償是不必要或違憲的"},{"start":923.786,"end":933.032,"text":"你說的違憲我說的是程序上這樣來說是違背憲法的程序我從來沒有說禁法補償是違憲的因為在協商之前我們同意4萬草野協商沒有同意沒有任何人簽同意從哪一個"},{"start":964.117,"end":967.522,"text":"好,謝謝,時間到,謝謝謝謝麥玉珍委員質詢,謝謝卓院長的備詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":83,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時17分）謝謝院長，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：院長好。今天我想要跟院長單獨對話，可以嗎？其他部會不要上來，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：坐著就可以，不用離開。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，不用他們，你一個人就好了。所以我想要請教一下，今天大家都來質詢我們院長的目的是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：希望我能夠說明之後，讓總預算能夠順利付委，審查完畢之後，明年度我們能夠幫所有的政策有一個執行的能力跟時程。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，所以我就是因為這個事情，我們要來質詢，所以我用要學吳思瑤，用越南語跟大家呼籲一下「總預算不分黨派，希望行政院遵守臺灣法律，依照所需資源分配總預算（越南語）」。你代表行政，就是政府機構，我代表的民間團體要來跟你對話……不是民間團體，是國民，一起來對話。"],["卓院長榮泰：麥委員，非常抱歉，你說的跟吳思瑤委員一樣的好聽，但是我還是聽不懂。"],["麥委員玉珍：當然，你聽得懂的話，你就是越南人，你要學越南語。所以我們進入正題，我想要請教一下我們行政院在送中央行政機關組織基本法修正草案，在推動運動部還有全民運動署機關數量修法是包含新住民發展署對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，再重複一次您的問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為我是看到中央行政機關組織基準法有在推動修正草案，裡面是不是包含了我們的新住民發展署？"],["卓院長榮泰：原來的體育署，我們將來會將全民運動組歸屬到運動部下面去。"],["麥委員玉珍：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以機關的數量我們在限制員額、機關額度底下已經是……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們新住民發展署是我們總統在8月12號公布的，而我們立法的過程也答應要在一年成立新住民發展署，在修法的時候就已經把它考量在裡面並定在裡面了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我應該要再查清楚一下，我們現在是在運動部裡面有全民發展署。"],["麥委員玉珍：所謂查清楚是要依法行事還是真的是查清楚，以你說的算？跟這個一樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然要查清楚，之後說的才算啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：所以在修法的時候不是考量立法，是考量你想說的，還是考量……"],["卓院長榮泰：考量法律的規定，我們中央行政機關組織基準法裡對所有員額跟機關數量的限制，我們考量的是這個限制，不是誰說的算。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，要考量的限制就是依法去考量、去立法還有去改變嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["麥委員玉珍：等於是你有把新住民發展署放在裡面，這樣我才知道什麼時候……因為一年後，也就是明年8月嘛！如果是這樣子的話，我們就是要大量去推廣，要跟全國的新住民說我們的新住民發展署明年即將成立，要去邀約還有要讓大家去設個目標共同去努力，往這個方面去成為發展署的成員，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在在推的是運動部跟全民運動署，在這個中央行政機關組織基準法裡的調整是這個方式。"],["麥委員玉珍：你一直在說全民運動署，所以新住民發展署是沒有考量在裡面嗎？是沒有照修法在做初步的預算嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個須要進一步地研議，我們現在在整個數量的限制上面就是剛剛跟委員報告的這個樣子。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以這個樣子就表示會依法規劃、修法，而新住民發展署也在你修法裡面是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前我們還要再研議這個事情。"],["麥委員玉珍：研議？研議是指不照法律規定？"],["卓院長榮泰：研議就是我們會繼續努力的意思。"],["麥委員玉珍：繼續努力，所以明年就會實現嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：實現也須要努力啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：實現當然須要努力，但要有目標、有規劃的努力才會達成嘛！如果沒有目標的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：目標是可以啦，目標是很清楚，只是時程我們要想辦法在法定的基礎底下能夠推動，那個時程才能訂得出來。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以雖都說要努力跟推廣，但是也要依法嘛！我要請教一下，我們現在……請院長摸著良心講，你的眼睛有沒有我？你的眼裡有沒有我，有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：在這個議室廳裡面，現在在對話的就是你跟我。"],["麥委員玉珍：有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：只有委員跟我在對話。"],["麥委員玉珍：你眼裡有沒有我啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個回家不好交代啦！"],["麥委員玉珍：不好交代？所以你眼裡有我才是正常人，因為你看著我，你眼裡有我就是正常人，如果沒有的話就要去看醫生了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，那這樣講的話，委員，我要跟你說一下……"],["麥委員玉珍：我是說你的眼裡有我……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，正確的說法是，我的眼前有你，不能說我的眼裡有你。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，你的眼裡有我就表示你會把新住民發展署放在心裡，如果你的眼裡沒有看到我的話，你的心裡就是把新住民變成二等公民。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，可以。委員，眼前我們是在對話，新住民發展署我們會放在心裡。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，如果是這樣的話，我希望我們的新住民發展署就是你已經答應的，所以是不是要全國去說明，要招募更多人在新住民這邊？還有，此事是你要去辦還是委任其他人去辦，我們希望你要去執行，這個就是今天你答應我們的。","接下來，我請教一下院長，我們中華民國是法治國家，對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們站在這裡對話……"],["麥委員玉珍：是嗎？我問你，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：民主最高的殿堂。"],["麥委員玉珍：是不是法治國家？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：好，如果是法治國家，是不是我們都要遵守我們法律的規定，包含你，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，如果是這樣子的話，比如萬一院長開車出去撞死人了，是警察馬上辦，還是要通過行政院同意才能辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：現行犯，警察馬上抓起來了。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，馬上辦。所以我們如果是法治國家，我們要不要依法去編列預算？為什麼你不編？我很納悶，所以我想要瞭解，因為你讀法律，比我懂，為什麼？為什麼不依法來編列？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我再度提醒委員預算法第九十一條的規定，立法院在對行政院審查預算、法律的時候，對於歲出有增加的時候，必須徵詢行政院的意見，同時要指出彌補資金之來源，換句話說，委員在審查預算或是法案的時候，增加了行政院……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你是依法行政，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：有兩個要件，一個要徵詢行政院的意見，一個要找出增加這筆預算的資金來源在哪裡。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，所以你是依法行政，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：要依這個法行政。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，你依法行政的話，請問我們法律通過的禁伐補償是多少萬？"],["卓院長榮泰：6萬。"],["麥委員玉珍：6萬，所以你有依法去編列嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：那3萬的來源在哪裡？"],["麥委員玉珍：一樣是依法，但是……"],["卓院長榮泰：彌補資金之來源、增加3萬的來源在哪裡？"],["麥委員玉珍：我現在問你的是依法編列……"],["卓院長榮泰：依法就要指出3萬的來源在哪裡，我才能夠依法啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：對，你依法，來源在哪裡，你自己要去想辦法……"],["卓院長榮泰：哪有這種事……"],["麥委員玉珍：你要怎麼樣去編預算，但是照你說的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我編的預算，你把它增加，來源叫我自己去想辦法。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們的助理很厲害，他知道你一定要回我第九十一條還有第七十條，但是我要跟你明確的講，預算案不包含法律案，預算法第九十一條，也就是要求立法委員徵詢行政院的意見，而非取得同意，所以立法院三讀通過後，行政院若有異議，要在十天內提出覆議，你沒有提出覆議，表示你同意，你有同意，你覺得有這個法律，你才要去算，對不對？如果你不同意的話，你就不會……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，那一天我們在餐敘中都講得很清楚了，你只記得你的問題，你從來不不瞭解我的答案……"],["麥委員玉珍：好，你再講一次，讓大家聽到你講什麼。"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道你說為什麼行政院不提出覆議？那天我也說了，我想用其他的方式，其他的方式還有很多，那提出覆議……"],["麥委員玉珍：其他方式，我們有沒有依法？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然要依法啊！依的就是……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，要依法，為什麼我們沒有依法去編列，明年再提出其他方式呢？今年……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你請你的……"],["麥委員玉珍：今年是我們要拜託你依法。你說於心不忍，對不對？我現在也於心不忍，你還記得之前2019年你當民進黨的主席，我是因為你才加入民進黨的，當時很多人推薦我，其中有一個人跟我講，要跟卓院長學習，你當我們的主席，待在這邊的話，我可以學到很多，因為你的人很好……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，那你後來為什麼離開？"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我於心不忍，你已經在這邊忍耐了四年，現在出來當行政院長，你不能再忍耐不要再做其他的了，我希望你永續為我們的行政工作，我希望是這樣，所以我也於心不忍，不希望你為了這件事情負責，我希望你繼續為我們的人民來工作……"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得我現在最重要的工作就是建立一套兩院互動的關係……"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，建立一套，但是我們的法條你都有看到……"],["卓院長榮泰：一定要在憲法及法律的基礎底下……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望你依法去編列，剛才你有講，依法是多少？是6萬，但是你沒有依法，4萬從哪裡來，我們看不到、我們不知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你可以再請教你那個厲害的助理，那增加的3萬，資金來源在哪裡？"],["麥委員玉珍：資金來源在哪裡，如果你覆議，你就來說明，但是你沒有覆議，表示你心裡有數，你知道怎麼樣去編列。"],["卓院長榮泰：不覆議的原因我已經講過了，如果我覆議，就表示這個程序是合理的。"],["麥委員玉珍：我要問你，禁伐補償金是針對原住民，本來就是有必要要去補償的，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：原來的法律是有這樣的規定。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，原來的法律，立法後也是原來的法律，但是對於這些人是不是有必要要補償他們？是不是必要？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果隨著……"],["麥委員玉珍：不管是3萬還是6萬，你跟我講，是必要的，還是不必要的？"],["卓院長榮泰：必要要看程度。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，必要的，你說必要的。"],["卓院長榮泰：必要要看程度，任何一個補助的案件都不應該從3萬增加到6萬。"],["麥委員玉珍：所有的法律通過都是經過所有的立委討論、研議，花了很多時間才立法通過，但是，必要的我們要去給他們。預算是不是必要的？預算還沒有執行，就像現在三兆多，你要給的是誰？就是我們的電視臺，還有媒體，還有打詐，還有其他等等，你預算的，預算的算不算圖利廠商？你還沒有必要給的，你預算的算不算圖利？"],["卓院長榮泰：立法院在審查預算的時候，實質的審查……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以審查預算是預算，預算還沒有執行，你就覺得這個預算要給他們，但是……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你這個邏輯我聽不大懂，預算是圖利廠商，那這樣講起來……"],["麥委員玉珍：預算你要給媒體的有多少錢，你要給的……"],["卓院長榮泰：都要經過合理的、法定的招標程序再來，不是隨便給的啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，所以這個就是預算，你還沒有執行，你為什麼說無法執行，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：程序不符合。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們原住民的禁伐補償，它是必要的，要給他們，是利民利國的，為什麼我們沒辦法去執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：從來沒有人說禁伐補償是不必要或違憲的。"],["麥委員玉珍：你說的，違憲。"],["卓院長榮泰：我說的是程序上這樣來做是違背憲法的程序，我從來沒有說禁伐補償是違憲的。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以這4萬從哪裡來的？依據哪個法律？依據那個規定？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為在協商之前，我們同意4萬。"],["麥委員玉珍：協商跟誰協商？"],["卓院長榮泰：朝野協商。"],["麥委員玉珍：朝野協商沒有同意，沒有任何人簽同意，從哪一個？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們行政院同意4萬，但是這個意見從來沒有被重視。"],["麥委員玉珍：你說的，不是別人的……"],["卓院長榮泰：是行政院的意思，不是我說的。"],["麥委員玉珍：行政院的意思，但是沒有經過大家同意，所以我今天是來拜託你……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以要徵詢行政院的意思……"],["主席：好，謝謝，時間到。"],["麥委員玉珍：不要浪費大家的時間，希望你要編預算，拜託你。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員質詢、謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第17號鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","張智倫","麥玉珍","鍾佳濱","羅智強","王定宇","牛煦庭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","郭國文","邱鎮軍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","郭昱晴","高金素梅","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","王美惠"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-11-05"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「114年\n度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─\n詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138801_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}