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Tahov二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．伍麗華Saidhai Tahov二、上午9時為國是論壇時間。．伍麗華Saidhai Tahov"},{"start":740.404,"end":759.15,"text":"提撥一定比例納入原住民族綜合發展基金作為回饋或補償經費。所以我說到這邊,主計長有沒有違法的問題?目前我們都是依照相關的法令來做啦。有沒有違法嗎?有或沒有嗎?"},{"start":760.356,"end":761.637,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．伍麗華Saidhai Tahov"},{"start":777.563,"end":802.802,"text":"反經付出仍可收回,而非與營業者為作業基金。所以這個部分不斷不斷的拿來討論但是我們剛才整個聽完了我想主計長你應該解釋的很清楚了也確認了這句話的一個概念我們來看一下因為反經付出仍可收回是在出"},{"start":803.362,"end":810.969,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間．伍麗華Saidhai Tahov二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間．伍麗華Saidhai Tahov"},{"start":829.065,"end":831.306,"text":"對嗎?沒錯吧?以前的作業都是這樣"},{"start":854.877,"end":860.933,"text":"對嘛 就算是公務預算也是編到基金裡面 對嘛對 所以重發基金有破產的問題嗎"},{"start":863.181,"end":889.446,"text":"原則上如果有組不組的部分我們會來做協助好那最後我想要請教一下院長因為大家都會說行政院雙標4萬就不違憲了6萬就違憲了執政黨提案就不違憲了在野黨就違憲不好意思我就是有提案所以我想這個也是錯假資訊那我覺得院長您自始至終其實態度都很一致不論是報宅"},{"start":890.526,"end":905.449,"text":"或者是你今天的這個總預算報告書裡面都寫得很清楚就是憲法第70條我認為你在意的就是要恪守憲法的架構權力分立的原則行政權、立法權彼此的來尊重"},{"start":906.05,"end":932.677,"text":"所以我是特別要想說因為你已經有在報章有揭露就是徵詢行政院意見指明彌補資金來源然後呢你有說停止提案修正其他的方法我這樣子講有沒有違背你的意思謝謝委員的了解真的是如果能夠在憲法精神下在預算法跟財政紀律法的規定底下兩院建立一個互信的共識互相尊重"},{"start":990.876,"end":997.5,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。．伍麗華Saidhai Tahov"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1302,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（15時35分）謝謝主席韓院長，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長好。現在是11月，稱之為年底，您終於可以來報告明年度的中央總預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：也感謝我們立法院特別安排了備質詢，讓我們可以在這個地方再一次的討論。當然這一次備受爭議的禁伐補償金的發放，其實已經在這兩個月有非常多非常多的討論，可是因為我們今天要特別的來關心，到底明年能不能夠如實發放？所以我想快速的帶院長來回顧一下立法的過程。","禁伐補償條例在4月17號排進了內政委員會，用一天的時間詢答、逐條審查、審查完竣，我記得在我們的結論上還有後續的討論上，大家不斷的提到是不是可以等520的新內閣團隊就職上任之後，我們再來做協商？可是我們超前部署，在5月2號的時候，委員會安排了協商，當時我們提案的委員們都有參加，但是各黨團並沒有派員，那一天的協商結論，召委也很辛苦，逐一的去各黨團找各黨鞭要簽名。在隔天的時候，出現了一個很聳動的圖卡，上面寫著說：「民進黨團拒簽協商結論」，這張圖卡引起非常大的討論跟誤會，我們看一下那張圖卡的場景，它其實就是在這裡，就是一張照片，講了什麼不得而知。實際上黨鞭如果沒有簽名，照理說應該要請院長主持協商，但是在5月14號的時候，直接在院會二讀。因為還沒有協商，所以原本也沒有排這個案進來，但是在5月31號增列提案作為院會討論。6月4號看起來就要拼三讀了，所以在那個時候草草安排了一個協商，然後下午就三讀通過了。","我作為一個提案委員，三讀通過我非常的高興，可是我們可以看到，在這個過程中確實是有很多的瑕疵，舉個例子來講，在6月4號黨團協商那一天，我特別調出柯建銘總召在公報上的文字紀錄，它寫著說：「三十年來我在這個地方，所有法案、預算協商的程序，一定是委員會審查完畢，然後委員會協商，委員會協商各黨黨鞭都簽名的話，那就直接送院會；各黨鞭沒有簽名的話就交給院長主持協商。」所以院長的最主要功能在這個地方，能夠調和鼎鼐，能夠把朝野議事爭議全部來處理，過去三十年來，我們在這個地方從來就是這樣的一個遊戲規則和流程。","所以我很可以理解卓院長，我這些日子以來不斷不斷的聽到，您一直講一句話：「立法院跟行政院就是要來互相的對話，要坐下來，要彼此尊重，也要尊重我們行政院的行政權。」我看起來這樣的互相沒有尊重其實是頻頻的發生，所以我在前幾天有看到我們立法院的老院長──王金平，他也出來說話了，他談話的內容其實就是告訴我們協商在立法院的重要性，它的真意就是要真誠對話、找到共識，因為我們很清楚知道，真正的民主國家不是只有點人頭，只有點人頭不是真民主，還必須要有所謂的協商、溝通、共識。院長，我爬梳這一段歷程只是要交代，我真的可以理解你這些日子不斷不斷講的那些話，就是彼此尊重，大家要坐下來談，我不曉得還有哪些人找過您談？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員是其中之一。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，還有誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然還有很多委員，朝野黨團的委員都有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，我想要請教院長，因為我很無奈啊，為什麼我很無奈？其實我是一個很溫和的人，但是我有一個底線，因為我認為作為人民選出來的民意代表，就跟我們的行政機關父母官一樣，人民是我們的主人，所以當我看到族人惶惶不安，互相的謾罵、對立的時候，我會很著急、很難過。所以你應該知道，我面對這些很難解釋的問題，我有時候急了到處跟大家去做保證承諾，請安心，如果明年真的不是1公頃6萬如實發放，我就不再參選。有的人會說：「哎呀！什麼不再參選？馬上辭職！」可以，我也可以馬上辭職。","我要表達的是，因為我非常的相信中華民國政府，政府怎麼會發不出錢呢？我們要相信我們的政府，相信我們的法律，一旦真的沒有辦法兌現，說實在的，我這個立委其實也可以不用當了。我只是要表現、表達我們要相信政府、相信我們的法律，所以對我來講這是一個假議題，很多都是錯假的訊息。我想要請教一下，我們常常聽到的一個錯假資訊「行政院堅持不甩立法，只願意撥4萬」，但是我們可以看到總統公告的原住民保留地禁伐補償條例，上面寫得很清楚，中華民國114年起每年每公頃新臺幣6萬元，院長，沒有錯吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統公布的法律內容確實如此。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：確實如此嘛！我想要問一下，因為還有很多關於預算編列不足這樣的錯假資訊，因為我們預算法的主管機關是主計總處，解釋權在他們那邊，所以我也請主計長。主計長好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們有一個錯假資訊也是漫天飛，「預算不足，明年會領不到」，我有跟原民會索資，這張圖表是原保地禁伐補償各年度的預決算一覽表，請教一下主計長，我看到的是公務預算、綜發基金的搭配編列，其實有一些年度最後的決算綜發基金的編列也花不完。但是像112、111就算最後決算綜發基金編列不足、超支，也照樣都領得到。請教一下主計長，我這樣的解釋正確嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上在112年之前，公務預算和基金預算是各半負擔啦，在113年度是全部由國庫來撥補。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，即便是超支也會發得出來對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上我們會按政策來撥補基金。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：明年一定發得出來，對嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個我們配合政策來協助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，我再請教一下主計長，現在有說原住民綜合發展基金要破產了。主計長，還有聽說無法收回，基金不可以拿來發，說這個是違法的。所以我調了一下公文，這個是105年主計總處發給原民會的公文，上面載明你們建議原民會在發放的時候用公務預算跟基金各半編列，當然你們不會亂講話，你們也有提到這是依據原住民綜合發展基金的管用辦法，這個東西載錄可以做土地補償，是在民國96年寫進來的，以前沒有，96年寫進來，但是在105年開始發放，還沒有發禁伐補償的時候，基金就已經把用途載明，可以做土地補償金發放。","在民國96年，當時原民會的副主委是非常資深的立委──鄭天財委員，他也是非常資深的公務員，我覺得這些都不容置疑。我們來看一下，因為它只是辦法，來看一下這些不可收回的項目，我隨便念幾個，像是「原住民族地區溫泉資源開發、經營、利用之規劃、輔導及獎勵支出」、「促進原住民族或部落文化發展支出」、「原住民族就業基金支出」等等，裡面屬於支出類的有四、五、六、七、八、九、十、十一好幾項，這些都是不可收回的項目，所以不可以用基金去發嗎？主計長，因為有很多人都不懂。"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般基金是……這個是作業基金，它是有付出可以收回，但它是就整體來講，並沒有針對個別的項目。一般禁伐補償是整體撥到基金去執行，然後由國庫來撥補，所以它整個在基金裡運作，是從很久以前就一直執行到現在。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，所以基金可以去發放這些。當然有人質疑那只是辦法，所以它的法源是在哪裡呢？原基法第二十一條裡面有寫「提撥一定比例納入原住民族綜合發展基金，作為回饋或補償經費。」我說到這邊，請問主計長，這有沒有違法的問題？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前我們都是依照相關的法令來做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有沒有違法嘛？有或沒有嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以這個定義是沒有違法。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒有違法，好。那為什麼有人一直說基金不可以發禁伐補償金？因為他援引到預算法，我們來看一下預算法第四條有提到特種基金，裡頭的第四個種類「凡經付出仍可收回，而非用於營業者，為作業基金。」這個部分不斷不斷的拿來討論，但是我們剛才整個聽完了，我想主計長應該解釋得很清楚了，也確認了這句話的概念。我們來看一下，因為「凡經付出仍可收回」是在出跟回之間；那原住民綜發基金的收支管用辦法的第四條有提到「本基金的來源由政府循預算程序之撥款。」它的意思是不是有付出、有收回，一直都會有錢，不夠就來編，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分如果有不足，我們就會撥補。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，所以它的法源也是在原基法的第二十一條「受限制所生之損失，應由該主管機關寬列預算補償之。」它是會一直撥補，而且所有的預算、公務預算就是必須被撥補到基金，由基金來發放對嗎？沒錯嘛。"],["陳主計長淑姿：以前的作業都是這樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對嘛，就算是公務預算也是編到基金裡面對吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：撥到基金。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，所以綜發基金有破產的問題嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上如果……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：除非政府倒了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不足的部分，我們會來做協助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，最後我想要請教一下院長，因為大家都會說行政院雙標，4萬就不違憲，6萬就違憲？執政黨提案就不違憲，在野黨就違憲？不好意思，我就是有提案，所以我想這個也是錯假資訊，我覺得院長您自始至終其實態度都很一致，不論是報載或者是你今天的總預算報告書裡面都寫得很清楚，就是憲法第七十條，我認為你在意的就是要恪守憲法的架構、權力分立的原則，行政權、立法權彼此來尊重，所以我是特別想說，因為你已經有在報章上揭露，就是徵詢行政院意見，指明彌補資金來源；然後你也說，同時提案修正其他法律。我這樣子講，有沒有違背你的意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的了解，真的！如果能夠在憲法精神下、在預算法跟財政紀律法的規定下，兩院建立一個互信的共識、互相尊重。今年我們會想盡辦法來解決，但光是用基金可不可行，我想大院的同仁就有不同的意見，那還需要進一步談，但是我們願意提出一個方式，讓它到最後是一個協商可能達成的方式。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：總之，就是不管基金、不管二備金、不管追加預算，如果大家坐下來談，明年就是依法發放1公頃6萬元，這樣對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：法律的原則要先確定，互相尊重的共識要形成。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：最後，雖然時間已經到了，我還是想在這個地方說明，禁伐補償，我們都很清楚，它不是福利，雖然程序有問題，沒有提覆議，也不打算釋憲。我相信這都是因為院長您尊重原住民族千百年來在土地、山林所受到的權利的剝奪，這個我們都能理解，所以在這個部分，我就是要讓族人再一次的了解，明年禁伐補償金發放，絕對沒有問題，對吧？好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們會努力。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第30號謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","張智倫","麥玉珍","鍾佳濱","羅智強","王定宇","牛煦庭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","郭國文","邱鎮軍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","郭昱晴","高金素梅","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","王美惠"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-11-05"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「114年\n度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─\n詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138801_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}