{"error":false,"id":["156515"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":156515,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156515","日期":"2024-11-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-2-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期第7次會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"第11屆第2會期第7次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-11-05T16:34:35+08:00","結束時間":"2024-11-05T16:51:19+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:44","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/31e775e5ad017d41b23de0ffad95e315e3fd33acf0e4cf8b052879ca95171cd10911e5930497b7265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"16:34:35 - 16:51:19","會議時間":"2024-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第7次會議（事由：一、行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「114年度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢。二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.805343750000002,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.952843750000003,"end":16.872218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.66534375,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.60534375,"end":30.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.726593750000003,"end":34.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.70909375,"end":35.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.41346875,"end":39.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.65346875,"end":42.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.24784375,"end":44.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.37409375,"end":50.065343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.31846875,"end":52.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.83284375,"end":61.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.41784375,"end":63.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.97846875,"end":67.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.58159375000001,"end":67.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.63221875,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.80909375,"end":71.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.81721875000001,"end":72.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.31909375000001,"end":76.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.45346875,"end":83.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.74784375,"end":87.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.73034375,"end":88.67534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.77659375,"end":90.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.71721875,"end":95.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.21846875,"end":98.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.72846875,"end":100.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.89284375000001,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.03596875000001,"end":104.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.06096875,"end":113.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.35909375000001,"end":115.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.00034375000001,"end":115.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.11409375000001,"end":117.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.70034375,"end":121.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.54784375000001,"end":134.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.87909375,"end":136.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.75221875,"end":143.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.71721875,"end":145.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.35846875000001,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.84784375,"end":146.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.01221875000002,"end":148.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.91909375,"end":153.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.58909375000002,"end":155.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.61846875,"end":158.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.62659375,"end":157.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.38159375,"end":173.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.36659375000002,"end":183.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.79971875,"end":185.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.17909375000002,"end":189.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.94221875000002,"end":193.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.44784375,"end":205.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.95659375000002,"end":208.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.63534375,"end":214.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.01846875,"end":217.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.57909375000003,"end":219.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.67596875,"end":234.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.03221875000003,"end":237.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.79971875,"end":239.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.11159375000003,"end":244.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.30909375000002,"end":247.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.43096875,"end":253.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.86471875,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.39596875,"end":259.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.18034375,"end":266.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.97659375,"end":274.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.36346875000004,"end":282.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.87284375,"end":294.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.56721875,"end":311.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.84721875,"end":319.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.03159375,"end":323.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.28409375,"end":338.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.06659375000004,"end":347.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.68971875,"end":355.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.09346875,"end":361.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.87346875000003,"end":360.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.54409375,"end":369.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.62721875,"end":372.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.15409375,"end":380.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.76034375,"end":397.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.55534375,"end":418.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.66596875000005,"end":422.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.63159375000004,"end":423.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.76221875000005,"end":424.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.06596875,"end":433.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.92221875,"end":428.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.99346875000003,"end":429.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.27971875000003,"end":446.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.68471875,"end":434.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.58159375,"end":447.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.16784375000003,"end":448.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.41659375,"end":452.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.71159375,"end":458.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.92159375000006,"end":462.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.68034375,"end":471.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.39596875,"end":474.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.57284375,"end":491.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.71784375000004,"end":515.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.5578437500001,"end":524.3034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.7422187500001,"end":525.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.3959687500001,"end":540.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.95909375,"end":541.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.4609687500001,"end":544.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.8572187500001,"end":548.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.9409687500001,"end":551.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.79284375,"end":558.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.98159375,"end":570.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.2665937500001,"end":572.9540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.3759687500001,"end":574.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.18159375,"end":580.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.78409375,"end":589.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.2722187500001,"end":589.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.9809687500001,"end":594.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.9422187499999,"end":599.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":600.20721875,"end":601.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":602.5022187500001,"end":603.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.66659375,"end":606.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.63659375,"end":613.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.79159375,"end":618.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.1459687500001,"end":614.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.2084687500001,"end":621.5034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.26284375,"end":627.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.02159375,"end":627.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.9328437500001,"end":633.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.11784375,"end":640.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.6059687500001,"end":647.9465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.5634687500001,"end":643.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.2165937500001,"end":653.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":654.2409687500001,"end":658.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.4553437500001,"end":663.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.7709687500001,"end":689.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.32784375,"end":666.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.0615937500002,"end":668.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.61971875,"end":690.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.5053437500001,"end":713.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.21471875,"end":714.8897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":715.09221875,"end":716.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.10909375,"end":715.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":716.5265937500001,"end":716.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.62784375,"end":716.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":717.1172187500001,"end":718.9397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":719.7665937500001,"end":726.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":726.9384687500001,"end":735.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":735.88221875,"end":742.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":742.5984687499999,"end":749.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":750.24284375,"end":758.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.93346875,"end":769.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.80096875,"end":772.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":773.32784375,"end":789.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":789.6459687500001,"end":791.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":791.9072187500001,"end":796.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":797.49284375,"end":803.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":804.3103437500001,"end":806.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":807.1284687500001,"end":819.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":820.1728437500001,"end":822.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":822.9740937500001,"end":830.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":823.1428437500001,"end":825.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":825.43784375,"end":826.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":828.2390937500002,"end":828.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":831.12471875,"end":831.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":831.1415937500001,"end":832.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":831.2765937500001,"end":834.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":835.1072187500001,"end":838.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":838.56659375,"end":840.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":840.4734687500002,"end":844.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":843.76409375,"end":845.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":844.7934687500001,"end":848.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":846.3797187500002,"end":846.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":847.54409375,"end":848.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":848.7253437500001,"end":850.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":848.7422187500001,"end":851.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":852.16784375,"end":861.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":852.20159375,"end":852.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":858.39471875,"end":860.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":861.49971875,"end":862.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":862.4953437500001,"end":885.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":885.4284687500001,"end":886.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":886.94721875,"end":900.5147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":900.7847187500001,"end":916.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":917.32221875,"end":923.5828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":923.88659375,"end":953.9578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":944.6428437500001,"end":950.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":951.17346875,"end":951.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":951.2578437500001,"end":953.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":953.8228437500002,"end":954.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":955.66221875,"end":960.7078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":960.4040937500001,"end":962.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":961.72034375,"end":966.1922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":962.74971875,"end":963.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":966.1584687500001,"end":966.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":967.0359687500002,"end":968.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":968.9597187500001,"end":974.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":974.6297187500002,"end":976.4522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":976.9753437500001,"end":978.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":979.42221875,"end":982.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":982.67909375,"end":992.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":992.97284375,"end":994.0190937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.233,"end":42.248,"text":"謝謝韓院長現在有請原民會的主委還有主計長麻煩請原住民主委、主計總長備詢我今天就不邀請我們的卓院長上台了因為過去一個多月以來我的族人同胞在禁法補堂這個議題上面不斷地被污衊、被歧視為了不再發生這種反制的現象我這次就不邀請卓院長上台了"},{"start":43.811,"end":71.019,"text":"來請問一下主計長5月8號主計總署有沒有依據預算法第31條頒布114年度中央政府總預算編製辦法然後你行文給所屬各機關看一下有還是沒有你桌上應該也有啦有沒有應該有吧"},{"start":73.998,"end":98.774,"text":"編製辦法的第14條的第三項看一下各機關編列的概算不能夠超過行政院原本核定的額度但是有幾個例外的情況其中是不是就包含各機關必須要配合新增法律規定進法補償是不是新增的法律規定啊"},{"start":99.735,"end":103.437,"text":"曾主委,請問一下,5月8日主計總署發布這個編製辦法的時候,是不是匡列了125億給人民會來編製預算?"},{"start":116.141,"end":130.39,"text":"在6月4日進法補償條例立法院三讀通過了以後元明會你們是不是在6月18日也依據主計總署編製的辦法你們增編了進法補償要多3萬塊的補償預算給我們主計處所以你們提報的是165.02億也就是114年度的預算看到了沒有"},{"start":147.261,"end":153.447,"text":"8月19日,行政院合併給原民會114年度的預算多少錢?123.83億元"},{"start":159.551,"end":182.631,"text":"所以我們所有原民會的同仁依法依規編制了明年的預算是165.02億行政院大道一揮就只剩下123.83億高務人員依法行政依法編列預算成為我們行政院長口中的違法還有浪費公帑"},{"start":183.852,"end":208.547,"text":"主委,你不覺得非常荒謬嗎?進法補償每公請3萬塊的時候, 原民會匡列的預算是125億。而進法補償通過了每公請要6萬塊的時候, 行政院合併給原民會的預算只有多少?123.83億。比修法之前還少啊,主委。"},{"start":209.688,"end":233.258,"text":"你當了一輩子的公務人員我相信你的內心一定非常的沮喪但是你可以不必沮喪為什麼從上個禮拜五一直到今天所有很多民眾黨的委員也好國民黨的委員也好在這邊正在為你圓明會還有為我們的主任討公道所以我們要謝謝他們"},{"start":235.083,"end":253.201,"text":"而我們的卓院長不斷跟大家講預算法91條財政紀律法其實呢全部都是假議題啦禁法補償、條例修法大家回憶一下從委員會的審查我就是召委"},{"start":253.962,"end":273.807,"text":"然後到草野協商．再到今天的韓院長的協商．每一次的會議．行政院都有不同部會的人員參加．不管是新政府還是舊政府．期間都沒有人說修法有問題．"},{"start":276.007,"end":296.215,"text":"這不就是已經徵詢行政部門的意見嗎?哪裏沒有徵詢行政部門的意見呢?再說進法補償條例在105年立法的時候就是本席在立法院跟簡東明委員立的法當時有一個附帶決議"},{"start":298.295,"end":322.623,"text":"決議寫得非常的清楚如果要調整禁法補償的額度我們所需要的預算可以從碳稅或者是碳費來支應而環境部不是從明年就開始要開增碳費了嗎?哪裡沒有預算呢?所以本席認為禁法補償條例"},{"start":324.364,"end":346.901,"text":"一直在講為依法編列預算從頭到尾都只是卓院長自以為我們立法院沒有徵詢他一個人的意見而已導致現在我們必須要不斷的在這邊找理由在這邊跟他質詢所以"},{"start":347.742,"end":360.761,"text":"我要講的是難怪昨天有一位他們政黨的立法委員在廣播裡面講說卓院長嘴硬是一致的也難怪如此"},{"start":361.561,"end":365.763,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。"},{"start":381.806,"end":389.949,"text":"具體來講就是原民會在114年的公務預算裡面只有編列28.16億轉交給綜合發展基金去執行進法補償"},{"start":397.651,"end":399.592,"text":"兩本預算書加起來就只有28.16億,也就是每公頃左院長口中講的4萬塊的經費額度,是不是這樣?"},{"start":418.735,"end":441.025,"text":"我們的預算是編4億,但是往年就是編4萬,一公頃4萬,還有2萬本來行力就可以用這個基金那你基金編在哪裡?看一下預算書你的基金編在哪裡?你的基金裡面只有28.16億轉到你們基金裡面要動資轉給這個金髮補償啊,編在哪裡?"},{"start":446.448,"end":447.869,"text":"二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。二、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。"},{"start":472.438,"end":490.109,"text":"本來就只有4萬塊行政院長在這裡備詢還有在媒體面前講得很清楚他認為4萬塊是合理合憲的所以根本就沒有存在有一些立委尤其是原住民立委在外面一直講有啊4加2啊要不就是6加0的狀況啊"},{"start":491.81,"end":491.83,"text":"主計長"},{"start":516.844,"end":541.302,"text":"10月21號的協商你說你有很多的方式可以來解決預算編列不足的問題你說的工具有什麼總預算修正、綜合發展基金、第二預備金但是你講完了這些之後呢你又接著長篇大論講說綜合發展基金是你認為最可行的工具甚至說我們基金還有30億的剩餘款可以使用你知道嗎"},{"start":542.503,"end":553.37,"text":"原民會主委打臉你啦剛剛他說只有17億啊來我們看一下為什麼說17億因為基金的資產項目中114年底可動資做進法補償的款項現金7億流動金融資產10億應收款項0.27億合計17億主委你倒是講對了主計長你"},{"start":571.368,"end":599.511,"text":"才是搞不清楚狀況而主委你講你說你可以用17億好就算我們現在讓你用17億用在淨法補償加上公務預算28.16億你說這足以發給每個人每公頃6萬塊的補償對不對好你知道嗎這是要停止原民會各項貸款的業務耶然後你把17億全部放在淨法補償基金上面"},{"start":600.311,"end":620.941,"text":"你難道不清楚知道我們其他的貸款業務就做不來了嗎?如果這樣繼續動資基金115年就沒有預算可以辦理貸款了耶你知道嗎?各位報告我們每一年的進化補償的發放的時間最快也是9月底到10月"},{"start":623.123,"end":639.654,"text":"換句話講,這個經會是明年的9月、10月才會發放這個進化補償。然後呢?然後我們,就是說我們沒有經會,我們會請求來這個請這個主計…你知道原理會行了幾次公文跟主計處說,你們基金要破產了,主計處回你的文是什麼?"},{"start":640.735,"end":643.636,"text":"現在行政院究竟要使用你百寶箱裡面的哪一個工具?是總預算調整呢?還是要用第二預備金呢?"},{"start":664.864,"end":665.784,"text":"你還是沒有回答我的問題啦"},{"start":690.632,"end":718.307,"text":"我要講的是今天你們既然有心在這邊你們早就應該要白紙黑字提出來嘛不要讓大家在閣樓上講嘛然後等一下這邊質詢完畢以後我們的韓院長就可以進去跟其我們其他的在野黨的山長討論嘛你們現在一直在講說要用這些要用那些你們都沒有白紙黑字寫下來啊對不對好了請你可以回座曾主委剩下我們兩個在部落上你是我的長輩"},{"start":719.81,"end":735.224,"text":"我在這裡要告訴你的是,原住民族的轉型正義從來就不在民進黨政府的眼中。為什麼?因為當我們努力在立法、修法、進法補償的時候,我們的農業部用一個計畫就可以讓農民零九萬塊的休耕補助。"},{"start":735.945,"end":758.311,"text":"我們的經濟部用一個計畫就可以讓一般人領6萬塊的直數保齡獎金。我們的農業部113年也預告了,獎勵造齡辦法平均每年可以領多少?6萬塊。我們很辛苦的立法修法,平地休耕補助,只要用一個行政方案,它就可以發放了。"},{"start":759.051,"end":779.406,"text":"而我們的禁法補償經過漫長的三讀立法通過即使總統已經公告實施了還要被我們的卓院長指責這是違法、浪費公堂然後不編預算我回想到2005年原禁法三讀通過的時候隔天馬上傳出行政院就要提復議"},{"start":780.626,"end":803.455,"text":"當時的原民會陳主委還有企劃處的林處長他們奉命跑到行政院去要簽署所謂的復議案當時你應該也在原民會因為當時是逢整個行政院總辭大家在拍畢業照一片混亂當中原民會沒有簽署復議案所以我們的原基法逃過一劫"},{"start":805.076,"end":829.911,"text":"2015年的時候也在這個地方進法補償立法也是這樣在野的民進黨團柯總統他一路的阻擋理由是什麼民進黨已經要執政了怎麼能夠先通過一個20億的進法補償呢這是一個前坑法案後來後來因為我沒有請你回答主要是因為我沒有請你回答"},{"start":831.193,"end":832.901,"text":"我沒有請你回答 請暫停時間 韓院長"},{"start":835.614,"end":860.585,"text":"時間暫停,麻煩請行政官員沒有要求詢答之前請不要回答我現在非常的尊重你喔,我說你是我長輩喔所以我現在告訴你2015年時間暫停,高金委員時間暫停再重申一遍根據立法院執行事法沒有要求你詢答之前請暫時不要回答,好嗎?不好意思,我要跟村議員報告一下,高金委員請繼續"},{"start":863.185,"end":886.23,"text":"謝謝2015年進法補償立法也是這樣在野的柯建民主黨理由是什麼民進黨就要這個執政了怎麼可以通過進法補償後來是因為蔡總統要大選啦怕影響他勉強通過所以除了進法補償之外我們的政府還忘了很多早年對原鄉的長期壓迫啊光復之後"},{"start":887.01,"end":887.65,"text":"三十六年的三地管制讓原鄉"},{"start":903.777,"end":923.178,"text":"一窮二白、民生基礎是零、工作機會是零而當時我們原住民的子弟只好離鄉背井去討生活因為我們的文化跟語言的差異只能去做重勞力的工作這些全部都是對原住民轉型正義而我們的民進黨對我們的轉型正義做什麼"},{"start":924.019,"end":948.315,"text":"促進轉型正義條例排除了日據時期。然後兩天前聯合國的生物多樣性公約第16次的大會才在哥倫比亞閉幕並且通過一項決議。大會主席蘇珊娜表示透過這項決議原住民、非洲人後裔和在地社區的傳統知識價值得到了肯認公約26年對原住民族的起暫停。"},{"start":956,"end":978.636,"text":"對不起,高金委員時間暫停。高金委員跟曾主委這邊容許我唸一下。我還沒有請你回答。時間請暫停。第一方面質詢新司法第22條的精神。時間已經暫停了。對。對於委員質詢之答覆,由行政院院長或質詢委員指定之有關部會首長答覆。委員如果沒有指定,請部會首長不要接受。"},{"start":979.485,"end":980.085,"text":"不要搶答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1507,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（16時34分）謝謝韓院長，現在有請原民會的主委，還有主計長。"],["主席：麻煩請原民會主委、主計總長備詢。"],["高金委員素梅：我今天就不邀請我們的卓院長上臺了，因為過去一個多月以來，我的族人同胞在禁伐補償這個議題上面不斷地被污衊、被歧視，為了不再發生這種反智的現象，我這次就不邀請卓院長您上臺了。","請問一下主計長，5月8號主計總處有沒有依據預算法第三十一條頒布114年度中央政府總預算編製辦法，然後你行文給所屬各機關？看一下，有還是沒有？你桌上應該也有啦！有沒有？應該有吧？都在這裡了，編製辦法第十四條第三項，你看一下，各機關編列的概算不能夠超過行政院原本核定的額度，但是有幾個例外的情況，其中是不是就包含各機關必須要配合新增法律規定，禁伐補償是不是新增的法律規定啊？是還是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。","曾主委，請問一下，5月8號主計總處發布這個編製辦法的時候，是不是匡列了125億給原民會來編製預算？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，124。"],["高金委員素梅：在6月4號立法院三讀通過禁伐補償條例以後，原民會是不是在6月18號也依據主計總處的編製辦法，你們增編了禁伐補償要多3萬塊的補償預算給主計總處，所以你們提報的是165.02億，也就是114年度的預算，看到了沒有？有吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：嗯。"],["高金委員素梅：8月19號行政院核定給原民會114年度的預算是多少錢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：124。"],["高金委員素梅：123.83億，所以我們所有原民會的同仁依法依規編製了明年的預算是165.02億，行政院大刀一揮就只剩下123.83億，公務人員依法行政，依法編列預算，成為我們行政院長口中的違法，還有浪費公帑。主委，你不覺得非常荒謬嗎？禁伐補償每公頃3萬塊的時候，原民會匡列的預算是125億，而禁伐補償通過了，每公頃要6萬塊的時候，行政院核定給原民會的預算只有多少？123.83億，比修法之前還少啊！主委，你當了一輩子的公務人員，我相信你的內心一定非常的沮喪，但是你可以不必沮喪，為什麼？從上個禮拜五一直到今天，很多民眾黨的委員也好，國民黨的委員也好，在這邊正在為你原民會，還有為我們的族人討公道啊！所以我們要謝謝他們。","而我們的卓院長不斷跟大家講預算法第九十一條、財政紀律法，其實全部都是假議題啦！禁伐補償條例修法，大家回憶一下，從委員會的審查我就是召委，然後到朝野協商，再到今天韓院長的協商，每一次的會議行政院都有不同部會的人員參加，不管是新政府還是舊政府，期間都沒有人說修法有問題，這不就是已經徵詢行政部門的意見嗎？哪裡沒有徵詢行政部門的意見呢？再說，禁伐補償條例在105年立法的時候，就是本席在立法院跟簡東明委員立的法，當時有一個附帶決議，決議寫得非常的清楚，如果要調整禁伐補償的額度，我們所需要的預算可以從碳稅或者是碳費來支應，而環境部不是從明年就開始要開徵碳費了嗎？哪裡沒有預算呢？所以本席認為禁伐補償條例一直在講未依法編列預算，從頭到尾都只是卓院長自以為我們立法院沒有徵詢他一個人的意見而已，導致現在我們必須要不斷地在這邊找理由、在這邊跟他質詢。所以我要講的是，難怪昨天有一位他們政黨的立法委員在廣播裡面講，卓院長嘴硬是一致的，也難怪如此。","另外，主委，我再請你看一下，我翻遍了原民會114年單位預算書，還有你的綜合發展基金的預算書，目前這兩本預算書加起來，在禁伐補償金項目上就只有編列28.16億，具體來講，就是原民會在114年公務預算裡面只有編列28.16億轉交給綜合發展基金去執行禁伐補償，然而我們的基金是一毛錢都沒有編，因為上面都沒有看到禁伐補償要補那2萬塊的不足，所以這兩本預算書加起來就只有28.16億，也就是每公頃卓院長口中講的4萬塊的經費額度，是不是這樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們預算是編4億，但是往年都是……"],["高金委員素梅：4億？有沒有講錯？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是編4萬，一公頃4萬，還有2萬本來循例就可以用基金來補。"],["高金委員素梅：那你的基金編在哪裡？看一下預算書，你的基金編在哪裡？只有28.16億轉到你們基金裡面要轉給禁伐補償啊！編在哪裡？你翻給我。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們至少是可以先挹注，我們再來……"],["高金委員素梅：你翻給我看你們說2萬要編在哪裡？編在哪裡總是有科目吧！在綜合發展基金裡面。"],["曾主任委員智勇：有科目，綜合發展基金本來就可以用來做禁伐補償。"],["高金委員素梅：本來？本來113年就沒有編啊！114年要編，你應該上面要有寫嘛，對不對？好，你剛剛倒是講了4萬塊，本來就只有4萬塊，行政院長在這裡備詢，還有在媒體面前講得很清楚，他認為4萬塊是合理合憲的，所以根本就沒有存在有一些立委，尤其是原住民立委在外面一直講：有啊！4加2，要不就是6加0的狀況啊！也就是因為一直是缺2萬塊嘛！所以你們，也就是民進黨不斷地要拜託韓院長來這邊朝野協商，才會有今天針對禁伐補償、針對老農的公糧收購來這邊質詢，不是嗎？所以不要再強辯了，好不好？","主計長，10月21日協商時，你說你有很多方式可以來解決預算編列不足的問題，你說的工具有什麼？有總預算修正、綜合發展基金、第二預備金，但是你講完了這些之後呢？你又接著長篇大論說，綜合發展基金是你認為最可行的工具，甚至說我們基金還有30億的賸餘款可以使用。但你知道嗎？剛剛原民會主委打臉你了，他說只有17億。我們看一下為什麼說只有17億，因為基金的資產項目中，114年底可動支做禁伐補償的款項有現金7億、流動金融資產10億、應收款項0.27億，合計是17億。主委，你倒是講對了，主計長，你才是搞不清楚狀況的。而主委你說你可以用17億，好！就算我們現在讓你用17億用在禁伐補償，加上公務預算的28.16億，你說這足以發給每個人每公頃6萬塊的補償對不對？好，但你知道嗎？這是要停止原民會各項貸款的業務耶！然後你把17億全部放在禁伐補償基金上面，你難道不知道這樣其他的貸款業務就做不來了嗎？如果這樣繼續動支基金，115年就沒有預算可以辦理貸款了耶！主委，你知不知道？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們每一年禁伐補償發放的時間，最快也是9月底到10月，換句話講，禁伐補償經費是明年9月、10月才會發放。"],["高金委員素梅：然後呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們沒有經費會請求主計總處來挹注。"],["高金委員素梅：你知道原民會行了幾次公文跟主計總處說，你們的基金要破產了，主計總處回你的文是什麼？不要在這邊胡說八道了啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我沒有胡說八道。"],["高金委員素梅：今天在這邊談論的事情就是行政院怎麼樣釋出善意。主計長，我要請你回答我，現在行政院究竟要使用你百寶箱裡面的哪一個工具？是總預算調整呢？還是要用第二預備金呢？就你的認為。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們原則上是希望……"],["高金委員素梅：請你大聲一點，好嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們原則上是希望從基金裡面來支應，有不足的部分再從總預算來撥補。院長今天也陸續談到，如果對這個有意見，我們甚至可以用第二預備金，也可以用追加預算的方式來處理。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！你還是沒有回答我的問題。我要講的是，今天你們既然有心在這邊，你們早就應該要用白紙黑字提出來，不要讓大家在閣樓上講。等一下這邊質詢完畢之後，韓院長就可以進去跟其他在野黨的三長討論。你們現在一直在說要用這些、要用那些，你們都沒有白紙黑字寫下來，對不對？好，請你可以回座。","曾主委，剩下我們兩個，在部落，你是我的長輩，我在這裡要告訴你的是，原住民族的轉型正義從來就不在民進黨政府的眼中，為什麼？因為當我們努力在禁伐補償立法、修法的時候，農業部用一個計畫就可以讓農民領9萬塊的休耕補助，經濟部用一個計畫就可以讓一般人領6萬塊的植樹保林獎金？農業部113年也預告了獎勵造林辦法，平均每年可以領多少？6萬塊！我們很辛苦的立法、修法，平地休耕補助只要用一個行政方案就可以發放了，而禁伐補償經過漫長的三讀立法通過，即使總統已經公告實施了，還要被卓院長指責這是違法、浪費公帑，然後不編預算。","我回想2005年原基法三讀通過的時候，隔天馬上傳出行政院就要提覆議，當時的原民會陳主委，還有企劃處的林處長，奉命跑到行政院要簽署所謂的覆議案，當時你應該也在原民會。因為當時適逢整個行政院總辭，大家在拍畢業照，一片混亂當中，原民會沒有簽署覆議案，所以原基法逃過一劫。2015年也在這個地方，禁伐補償立法也是這樣，在野的民進黨團柯總召一路阻擋，理由是什麼？民進黨已經要執政了，怎麼能夠先通過20億的禁伐補償？這是一個錢坑法案。後來因為……"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有請你回答！"],["曾主任委員智勇：主要是因為……"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有請你回答！我沒有請你回答！"],["曾主任委員智勇：還沒有協商……"],["高金委員素梅：請暫停時間，韓院長。"],["主席：時間暫停，麻煩行政官員沒有被要求詢答之前，請不要回答。"],["高金委員素梅：我現在非常的尊重你，我說你是我長輩，所以我現在告訴你……"],["主席：立法院職權行使法……要求詢答才能詢答，好不好？"],["高金委員素梅：2015年……"],["主席：好，時間暫停。高金委員，時間暫停。我再重申一遍，根據立法院職權行使法，沒有要求您詢答之前，請暫時不要回答，好嗎？不好意思，我要跟卓院長也報告一下。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝，院長的裁示非常好！謝謝。"],["主席：高金委員，請繼續。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝。2015年禁伐補償立法也是這樣，在野的柯建銘阻擋，理由是什麼？民進黨就要執政了，怎麼可以通過禁伐補償，後來是因為蔡總統要大選了，怕影響他，才勉強通過，所以除了禁伐補償之外，政府還忘了很多早年對原鄉的長期壓迫。光復之後，你應該知道政府的一個行政命令，對30個山地鄉實施了36年的山地管制，當時只要進出山地鄉，就必須要向警察機關申請入山證。36年的山地管制讓原鄉一窮二白，民生基礎是零，工作機會是零，而當時原住民的子弟只好離鄉背井去討生活，因為文化跟語言的差異，我們只能去做重勞力的工作。這些全部都是對原住民轉型正義，而我們的民進黨對我們的轉型正義做什麼？促進轉型正義條例排除了日據時期，然後兩天前聯合國的生物多樣性公約第十六次大會才在哥倫比亞閉幕並且通過一項決議。大會主席蘇珊娜表示，透過這項決議，原住民、非洲人後裔和在地社區的傳統知識價值得到了肯認……"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，禁伐補償也是民進黨政府才開始發放，從105年到現在……"],["高金委員素梅：公約26年來對原住民族的……","請暫停，院長。"],["主席：對不起，高金委員時間暫停，高金委員跟曾主委，我這邊容許我唸一下……"],["高金委員素梅：我還沒有請你回答，要……"],["主席：時間請暫停，立法院職權行使法第二十二條的精神，時間已經暫停了。"],["高金委員素梅：對。"],["主席：對於委員質詢之答復，由行政院長或質詢委員指定之有關部會首長答復，委員如果沒有指定，請部會首長不要搶答，再重申一遍。","高金委員請繼續。"],["高金委員素梅：剩下最後5秒，我要講的是聯合國的決議解決對原住民族的歷史虧欠，而我們的行政院長卻揮刀斬斷原住民的轉型正義，曾主委，這樣子就是臺灣跟國際的距離，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：並沒有這樣子。"],["高金委員素梅：請你要注意，你是原住民……"],["曾主任委員智勇：我是啊！"],["高金委員素梅：被欺負了，不能這樣子的態度。"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有欺負啊！"],["主席：謝謝高金委員的質詢，也謝謝曾主委的答詢。","接下來我們請登記第33號賴惠員委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","張智倫","麥玉珍","鍾佳濱","羅智強","王定宇","牛煦庭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","郭國文","邱鎮軍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","謝衣鳯","郭昱晴","高金素梅","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","王美惠"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-11-05"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告「114年\n度中央政府總預算案」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─\n詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138801_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}