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洪文華局長我們今天想要來跟你討論的問題是我們其實有很多政府部會的公務員或者是公部門裡面的約聘僱其實常常每天他們都會開很多會議或包括做很多會議記錄那這些第一線的公務員其實他們包括個案的訪談或是這些會議記錄、訪談記錄"},{"start":35.862,"end":56.899,"text":"這些內容有的時候敏感有時候也不一定敏感但是裡面勢必都會有一些敏感的資訊在我們行政體系裡面所以我們其實我們也看到我們其實有很多公務體系的這個公務員或約聘戶協助做記錄他們常常會去使用這個錄音轉錄的這個文件的電子產品"},{"start":61.903,"end":87.385,"text":"那買這個來開會因為其實方便嘛那很快就可以把這個錄音把它轉成主持稿或者是即時的翻譯喔那但是我不知道局長清不清楚喔其實這些電子產品喔你如果要去使用的話其實你都需要連線到一個第三方的APP但現在大家發現這些很多第三方的應用程式喔"},{"start":89.229,"end":95.269,"text":"大部分都是中國的資訊業者所以我要問局長第一個問題"},{"start":96.638,"end":126.161,"text":"你覺得像我們裡面假如有一些會議裡面有這些敏感的資訊使用這類的產品你覺得有沒有一些國安上面的風險?風險確實是存在喔那事實上我們也利用各種的機會在提醒中制的APP它本身就存在治安的風險因為依照中共的相關的國安法規各個相關的軟體或企業必須要把他們所擁有的客戶的資訊要提供給相關的國安部門"},{"start":135.187,"end":155.182,"text":"其實這類的電子產品其實真的蠻好用的而且它價格很便宜所以我們其實有很多公務體系來說其實對它來講是很吸引人的就是說我買一個我就可以方便我工作很多但我想要跟局長講我們現在看到有一些看起來它可能是歐洲品牌"},{"start":157.304,"end":186.287,"text":"但是呢 這個電子設備它本身可能是歐洲品牌 它不是中國品牌喔但是它的第三方APP的公司呢 比方說像這個它是精華電子 深圳的精華電子那它的母公司 就是南京的熊貓電子南京熊貓電子的母公司 再是這個中國的電子信息那這當然是一家中國國務院獨資的公司"},{"start":188.112,"end":208.862,"text":"甚至我想這個局長已經清楚其實2020年當時有一個很這個國際上面非常非常大家都了解事件就是關於這個深圳的振華數據的這個事情那透過這個深圳的這一家中國的國有公司那做對很多明星、軍人、商人等等去做相關的監控當時就被發現了這樣的數據的資料"},{"start":211.923,"end":236.432,"text":"當然我們發現其實現在包括剛才講的金華數據跟這個振華其實他們的控制者是相同的所以就像我這邊想要說的事情是我自己覺得像我們現在看到的這個狀況我不知道國安局有沒有向我們相關部門在情收上面在情質上面做清楚的提供"},{"start":237.668,"end":264.58,"text":"這個部分我們比較關切的是剛跟委員報告的就是針對中置的這些自通訊產品或是APP的資安風險那來提出一些警示那事實上在上一屆的立法院也在這個問題上有很多的討論那因為涉及到規範的依據到底有沒有一個規範的依據來讓一般的民眾或公務員在選擇中置的APP有一個所謂的一個"},{"start":265.56,"end":281.833,"text":"法院的依據但是問題來了他是中資的APP可是產品本身不是中國品牌所以是歐洲品牌歐洲品牌去用了中國的APP就像剛才局長說用了中國的APP有可能資料會上傳會回傳"},{"start":285.959,"end":300.71,"text":"國安局有沒有針對這件事情向速發部或相關部會提出示警?上屆立法院林靜雯有做這樣的提案希望由國安局提醒速發部相關的問題"},{"start":303.672,"end":330.458,"text":"在會後後來就請我們的科技副局長跟蘇發部的次長針對這個問題有做相關的一個討論局長當然問題是我們之前當然我們有修了這個所謂各機關對危害國家自動安全產品限制使用原則對不對對只是這裡面我們的清單沒有公開嘛對不對如果我們按照這個使用原則來做管理的話局長你覺得我們管不管到剛才我們講這件事情"},{"start":331.567,"end":355.202,"text":"這可能還有涉及到各個部門之間相關的一個...你覺得管不管得到?不太...對管不到啊?對,可能不太容易因為我們在這邊第一個清單沒有公佈所以我們其實是讓這個使用原則他現在用的做法是說讓治安署透過跨部會的協調平台跟各機關溝通其他的內容是什麼我們外界其實也不知道"},{"start":356.65,"end":381.512,"text":"那剛剛在講的這個問題我們其實去了解了一下他可能只是要求針對大陸的品牌中國品牌禁止使用那這明顯就是一個洞啊我們剛才講局長也承認說這可能是有國安上面疑慮的問題精明資料可能會外洩被回傳的問題可是在這個使用原則裡面明顯管不到啊局長你覺得"},{"start":384.006,"end":401.835,"text":"對,這個問題我們來注意,因為依照那個自動安全法管理法,確實是公務機關不能夠使用中國大陸所製的這些自動產品,是有這樣的規範,可是委員剛剛特別提醒的是有外國的品牌去使用到中資的產品,那這部分在規範上確實有個模糊空間。"},{"start":402.475,"end":417.34,"text":"那局長你覺得你會來提醒我們這個說一步因為我當然今天說一步不在可是我自己是覺得說第一個大家會很困惑的點就是說我們現在報告這個清單沒有公開"},{"start":419.551,"end":447.053,"text":"到底這裡面喔 比方說他可能我們是聽說裡面對華為華為的產品有限制使用但是你通常你是其他的政府部會你要去詢問他可是到底他的清單裡面有什麼我們也不知道有漏沒漏是不是夠完整是不是夠全面是不是兼顧到各個層次其實坦白說大家都並不知道所以很有可能我們的公務員他去詢問說我採購能不能採購他們說可以啊"},{"start":450.319,"end":477.52,"text":"就可以了以後一樣啊回去連線到中國的APP很有可能把這些機密資料全部都回傳給老共所以局長我這邊要講是因為我知道說一步不在可是我覺得你們應該很嚴正的態度我光剛才幾分鐘的時間局長就知道這邊是一個漏洞了嗎我清楚意思對這邊就是一個明顯的漏洞嘛我們不是用猜的嘛"},{"start":478.735,"end":498.18,"text":"這就是一個明顯漏洞,我覺得應該要來盡快的,是不是可以在兩個禮拜內,請跟這個,包括數位部,召開一個相關的會議,請他們來討論,我請國安局跟數位部來討論,我們到底怎麼把類似這樣的漏洞,其實可以補起來,包括是不是要研修相關的法規,還是修相關的規定,"},{"start":499.244,"end":527.527,"text":"那讓像這樣子的風險我們有一個具體去解決的時程很可能也不是只是剛才說的這樣子的錄音轉錄筆而已不是只是這樣的東西而已是很多層次我們現在是擔心的事情是說這類型的產品或者是他其實可能是尤其是都是用應用服務包括可能是資訊的平台上面應用服務的是用中資的我們有沒有可能一個更嚴格來去管理跟禁止使用的做法"},{"start":529.331,"end":556.912,"text":"這部分我們謝謝委員提醒我們會後會立刻來針對這個問題做比較細部的一個研議那也會來找數位部來針對這個問題做一些溝通畢竟數位部他是主管業管機關局長這可能在兩個禮拜內我沒有要兩個禮拜出報告兩個禮拜內請國安局來跟我們辦公室來告訴報告你們跟數位部溝通的狀況還有你們接下來要怎麼去"},{"start":557.873,"end":558.594,"text":"提醒主管單位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時43分）請國安局蔡局長。"],["主席：請局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我們今天想要來跟你討論的問題是，其實有很多政府部會的公務員，或者是公部門裡面的約聘僱，常常每天都會開很多會議，包括做很多會議紀錄，這些第一線的公務員，包括個案的訪談或是會議紀錄、訪談紀錄，這些內容有的時候敏感，有時候也不一定敏感，但是裡面勢必都會有一些敏感的資訊，在我們行政體系裡面。所以我們也看到其實有很多公務體系的公務員或約聘僱協助做紀錄，他們常常會去使用錄音轉文件的電子產品，買這個來開會，因為方便嘛！很快就可以把錄音轉成逐字稿，或者是即時的翻譯，但是我不知道局長清不清楚，其實你如果要去使用這些電子產品的話，都需要連線到一個第三方的app，但現在大家發現這些很多第三方的應用程式，大部分都是中國的資訊業者。所以我要問局長第一個問題，你覺得假如我們有一些會議裡面有這些敏感的資訊，使用這類的產品，有沒有一些國安上面的風險？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，風險確實是存在，事實上我們也利用各種的機會在提醒，中製的app本身就有存在資安的風險，因為依照中共相關的國安法規，各個相關的軟體或企業，必須要把他們所擁有的客戶資訊提供給相關的國安部門，所以這個問題的風險性是存在的。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，OK，我謝謝你很坦誠講這風險是存在。其實這類的電子產品真的蠻好用的，而且它價格很便宜，所以對我們很多公務體系來說是很吸引人的，就是我買一個就可以方便我工作很多，但我想要跟局長講，我們現在看到有一些看起來它可能是歐洲品牌，這個電子設備它本身可能是歐洲品牌，不是中國品牌喔，但是它第三方app的公司，比方像這個是京華電子，深圳的京華電子，它的母公司就是南京的熊貓電子，熊貓電子的母公司是中國電子信息，這當然是一家中國國務院獨資的公司。","甚至我想局長已經清楚，其實2020年，當時有一個國際上面非常非常大，而且大家都瞭解的事件，就是關於深圳的振華數據的這個事情，透過深圳這家中國的國有公司，對很多明星、軍人、商人等等去做相關的監控，當時就被發現了這樣的數據資料，當然，我們發現其實包括剛才講的京華數據跟振華，他們的控制者是相同的。所以局長，我想要說的事情是，像我們現在看到的這個狀況，我不知道國安局有沒有向我們相關部門，在情蒐、情資上面做清楚的提供？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個部分，我們比較關切的是剛剛跟委員報告的，就是針對中製的這些資通訊產品或是app的資安風險，來提出一些警示。事實上，在上一屆的立法院，也在這個問題上有很多的討論，因為涉及到規範的依據，到底有沒有一個規範的依據，來讓一般的民眾或公務員在選擇中製的app有所謂的一個法源的依據……"],["洪委員申翰：但是問題來了，它是中製的app，可是產品本身不是中國品牌，是歐洲品牌啊！歐洲品牌去用了中國的app，就像剛才局長說，用了中國的app有可能資料會上傳、會回傳，局長，我剛才問的第一個問題是，國安局有沒有針對這件事情，向數發部或者我們相關的部會來提出示警，有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，因為上一屆立法院是林靜儀委員有做這樣的提案，希望國安局跟數發部，由國安局來提醒數發部相關的問題，在會後後來就請我們的科技副局長跟數發部的次長，針對這個問題有做相關的討論。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，問題是我們之前，當然我們有修了這個所謂各機關對危害國家資通安全產品限制使用原則，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員申翰：只是這裡面我們的清單沒有公開嘛，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：嗯！"],["洪委員申翰：如果我們按照這個使用原則來做管理的話，局長，你覺得我們管不管的到剛才我們講的這件事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：這可能還有涉及到各個部門之間相關的一個……"],["洪委員申翰：你覺得管不管得到？"],["蔡局長明彥：不太……"],["洪委員申翰：管不到？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，可能不太容易。"],["洪委員申翰：第一個因為清單沒有公布，所以我們事實上這個使用原則現在的作法，是讓資安署透過跨部會的協調平臺跟各機關溝通，它的內容是什麼，我們外界其實也不知道。剛剛在講的這個問題，我們去瞭解了一下，它可能只是要求針對大陸的品牌、中國品牌禁止使用……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員申翰：這明顯就是一個洞啊，我們剛才講，局長也承認這可能有國安上面疑慮的問題，機敏資料可能會外洩被回傳的問題，可是在這個使用原則裡面，明顯管不到啊！局長，你覺得？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個問題我們來注意。因為依照資通安全管理法，確實公務機關不能夠使用中國大陸所製的這些資通產品，是有這樣的規範，可是委員剛剛特別提醒的是有外國的品牌去使用到中資的產品，這部分在規範上確實有個模糊空間。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，你會來提醒我們數位部？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們來處理。"],["洪委員申翰：當然今天數位部不在……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，對，我知道。"],["洪委員申翰：可是我自己是覺得，第一個，大家很困惑的點就是現在包括這個清單沒有公開，到底這裡面，比方我們聽說裡面對於華為的產品有限制使用，但是通常其他的政府部會你要去詢問它，到底它的清單裡面有什麼，我們也不知道，有漏、沒漏是不是夠完整？是不是夠全面？是不是兼顧到各個層次？坦白說大家並不知道。所以很有可能我們的公務員詢問能不能採購，他們說可以，結果一樣回去連線到中國的app，很有可能把這些機敏資料全部都回傳給老共。","局長，我這邊要講，因為我知道數位部不在，可是我覺得你們應該用很嚴正的態度，我光是剛才幾分鐘的時間，局長就知道這邊是一個漏洞了嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：我知道，我聽的懂你的意思。"],["洪委員申翰：這邊就是一個明顯的漏洞嘛，我們不是用猜的嘛，這就是一個明顯漏洞，我覺得應該要儘快的，是不是可以在兩個禮拜內和數位部召開一個相關的會議，請他們來討論，請國安局跟數位部來討論，我們到底怎麼把類似這樣的漏洞補起來，包括是不是要研修相關的法規，還是修相關的規定，讓像這樣子的風險，我們有一個具體去解決的時程。很可能也不只是剛才說的這樣子錄音轉錄筆而已，不只是這樣的東西而已，是很多層次，我們現在擔心的事情是這類型的產品，尤其它可能都是用應用服務，包括可能是資訊平臺上面，應用服務都是用中資的，我們有沒有可能有一個更嚴格去管理跟禁止使用的作法？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，這部分謝謝委員的提醒，我們會後會立刻來針對這個問題做比較細部的研議，也會找數位部來針對這個問題做一些溝通，畢竟數位部是主管業管機關。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，這可不可以在兩個禮拜內，我沒有要你兩個禮拜出報告，兩個禮拜內請國安局來跟我們辦公室報告你們跟數位部溝通的狀況……"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["洪委員申翰：還有你們接下來要怎麼去要求數位部，可能把相關……"],["蔡局長明彥：建議，我們建議。"],["洪委員申翰：建議或要求啦，建議要求它把相關的資訊漏洞、資安漏洞給補上這個期程，好不好？兩個禮拜內可以嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來試行，也來提醒主管單位。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，局長請回。","接下來我們請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}