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謝謝主席賴委員好"},{"start":14.617,"end":38.25,"text":"兩位長官好,現在看起來我現在知道現在美國大選大家很關心在這個時刻是川普是198選舉人票,哈里斯、賀錦麗是112張選票,看起來川普大概贏了嘛是吧?沒有,因為他還在開票、計票,我們可能不適合做議政。差這麼多勒?差這麼多?"},{"start":41.161,"end":58.39,"text":"對,不適合臆測,這是外交憤激,請委員可以理解。好,現在不管怎麼樣,我先請教那個部長,這個大家都知道嘛,這個蔡局長要講話還可以講,就是他原來講了,今年初講說台灣的國防要到5%﹖然後在選舉的過程裡面,說要到10% GDP﹖"},{"start":66.44,"end":93.597,"text":"我們現在大概佔2.4%嘛對不對?是所以5%的概念是什麼?就是現在6千多億的國防預算就變成1兆2千多億如果是10%那就是2兆6千億左右我們的一年總預算就3兆所以佔我們的總預算超過八成喔這樣的一個概念國防部有這樣想法嗎?會把它提這麼高嗎?"},{"start":96.198,"end":125.112,"text":"發言委員我想國防預算也要看我們國家的財政狀況那也是全體大家的共識了那我們希望這個當然我們的國防預算是希望逐年成長尤其在現在的軍事環境的威脅情況下我想至於說如何去成長我認為還是看財政狀況未來的共識大家如何來去採取一個國防的共識因為我不懷疑怎麼成長他是要佔GDP現在2.5左右要提高到5有沒有可能"},{"start":126.84,"end":148.269,"text":"短時間之餘,我看...不可能嘛!你要大聲講不可能嘛!因為其他都不要做了啊!對不對?那這個話,應該讓川普知道啊!他現在快當總統了啊!要讓他知道啊!結果我們現在都在這裡講!然後,你川普講的美國人都聽到啊!你在這裡講美國人沒聽到!"},{"start":150.945,"end":168.294,"text":"來 蔡局長 你要不要講一下有沒有辦法讓我們說短時間不可能到5%這個聲音你不能讓美國知道這尊重業管單位國防部的一些評估跟意見你國安局長也是要國防部的預算是國防部在規劃的好 那我請問你喔針對美國大選之後你們國安有沒有開過國安會就是說這個我們如何因應有沒有幾套劇本因應"},{"start":177.414,"end":199.776,"text":"對,因為剛才跟其他委員有說明啦因為美國的選舉是一個動態蠻長的過程那過程當中我們對於相關的發展都有一些討論那正式的國安會還沒有召開因為剛剛總統府已經有對這一部分做說明了是大概什麼時候會召開這要由府方來宣布召開你一定會到吧對原則上都會到嘛對那現在來講的話"},{"start":202.202,"end":206.985,"text":"國際社會大家都在關注美國選情的狀況那台灣方面我們也是有高度的關注"},{"start":231.738,"end":233.023,"text":"你會覺得他當選是個壓力嗎?"},{"start":234.844,"end":262.594,"text":"整體來講因為川普政府也曾經執政過那在川普政府執政期間那台灣方面不管跟國會跟行政部門溝通合作都非常的順暢他最大的一個問題外界認為他最大問題就是美國優先嘛原來是MMAG讓美國再次偉大就是他是個勝利人就是我以美國為主所以國際上的周邊組織盡量能夠"},{"start":264.395,"end":268.679,"text":"川普上來之後大概我們要加入CPTPP更困難的,這個你怎麼看?"},{"start":277.477,"end":303.243,"text":"對各方面的評估意見我們都有在收集跟參考那也跟委員說明一下我剛有提到在川普政府第一任期之內臺美的合作是非常的發展的非常的順暢那包括也是在川普的任內那四年那美國對台軍售制度化然後我沒有記錯在2020年川普政府時期派美國的軍艦穿越台海是達到13次是歷史新高這都有都有"},{"start":303.703,"end":324.586,"text":"不要忘了川普時代比拜登時代川普時代台灣買的像美國買的武器就所謂的軍購是拜登時代的三倍三倍之多所以大家就認為說川普當選之後他說增加台灣的保護費Pay for defense這個講保護費對吧"},{"start":326.415,"end":344.602,"text":"這尊重委員的用語英文是Pay for defense保護衛這意思只有三條途徑第一個直接付錢像美國、日本、韓國因為有美軍住在該地所以直接付錢第二個那就是軍購"},{"start":347.816,"end":363.269,"text":"我認為軍購一定會再增加第三個那就是台積電2.0、3.0多一點的台積電去那裡因為他說了台灣偷了他們的晶片所以呢這個讓台灣的晶片廠多一點去大陸設廠這個看法怎麼樣"},{"start":365.179,"end":365.759,"text":"你認為川普不會要我們提高國防軍備嗎?"},{"start":386.134,"end":404.499,"text":"這部分可能後續還要再觀察,因為選舉期間的一些用語確實不一定能夠落實到後續的政策的執行。可是他講MAGA,要讓美國再次偉大,他一定是更加的,或者我們這樣問好了,他上來以後會不會重新重啟了國際間的保護主義,會不會?"},{"start":407.229,"end":426.935,"text":"這方面討論很多,我們會持續地來搜研。我們有沒有因應?我們有沒有因應請問?我們有在搜研是包括兩個陣營不管誰當選總統,他未來不管是在國安或經貿的人事佈局,那這部分也都會影響後續的政策。我們有其他劇本來因應。"},{"start":427.555,"end":450.694,"text":"有,各方面的有在討論。幾套的劇本?沒有幾套啦,就整個人事的布局,政策的走向,那以及後續他們可能在印太政策的主要施政重點在哪裡,那以及對台灣會產生哪些的影響,這大概都是我們讀的重點。以印太來講的話,台灣現在都沒辦法加入耶,IPF,台灣都沒辦法加入,如果川普來的話更不容易。好,最後一個我請教那個博次長,要博副部長了。是。"},{"start":452.155,"end":476.665,"text":"這個我們軍購大家預估啦一定會買的更多的美國武器因為他過去已經有這個記錄了嘛他的任內比川普比那個拜登多了三倍我們當然對台灣的防衛有幫助我們的還領可是我們人員不夠啊我們的報告裡面都寫啊我們的這個預算裡面都有提到啊就是就是"},{"start":478.075,"end":481.262,"text":"自願意啊!創新!這歷年來新低啊!"},{"start":484.142,"end":512.394,"text":"我昨天問了顧部長,他說你們正在研議要給自願役加薪有沒有什麼意思?有,是。幅度怎麼樣?現在在研議當中,因為這個牽扯到,我剛才是特別強調,就是說如何留住人才,那合理的給留住我們自願役的這樣子的人才,尤其在專長比例上來講,我們在討論,什麼專長是我們是非常需要的這樣加薪的比例?"},{"start":512.827,"end":530.485,"text":"我在想你們要打出一個亮的口號現在志願役我們的少將旅長都還不如美國的一個中士薪水來講真的我們的志願役的薪水一定要大幅提升起薪有沒有可能像現在台積電招年薪百萬起跳"},{"start":535.009,"end":547.199,"text":"我們最少你這個這一任賴清德總統協任以前2027年年薪破百萬護國神山我們要護國神兵啊破百萬有可能嗎有可能嗎來部長、副部長你講一下"},{"start":550.851,"end":575.214,"text":"報告委員我想調薪這件事情我還是必須要強調這還要看我們國家財政狀況來決定那另外一個就是說還有一個全面的共識那我想調薪對我們軍人來講本來就是一種鼓舞我想這個是一個朝這樣子的方向來發展現在捷運的起薪多少錢你告訴我捷運起薪依照各種不同的階級的標準都不一樣4萬塊左右"},{"start":576.772,"end":602.546,"text":"差不多啊,4乘以13.5,50幾萬嘛,對不對?那我說很快的調50%,目標2027破百萬,護國神三病護國神病,這樣子的話跟採集店爭取人才啊,怎麼樣?謝謝委員的關注,謝謝委員的關注,我想委員的關注對我們都是一種鼓舞,謝謝委員應該說樂見其成啊,我做球給你都不敢接"},{"start":604.501,"end":631.294,"text":"對嗎?蔡局長對嗎?我這個建議不是很好你同意嗎?你的點頭同意?蔡局長有說什麼嗎?沒有,我尊重委員的一些意見尊重委員的一些意見要同意啦這個東西這是2027嘛你還找你現在同意做不到也沒有人會給你救責啊對不對但是最少要大幅提升啦不然的話買了這麼多武器沒有好的人來人都不夠啊沒人要來薪水太低嘛就是這樣講啊又有風險有可能"},{"start":633.115,"end":633.876,"text":"臺灣有沒有可能引進傭兵制度?"},{"start":657.649,"end":659.09,"text":"我們這個都不評論這個東西我們目前都沒有這樣子規劃"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時33分）謝謝主席及各位先進。有請國安局蔡局長及國防部副部長。"],["主席：請蔡局長及副部長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。現在美國大選大家都很關心，根據我的資料，在這個時刻川普是198張選舉人票，賀錦麗是112張選票，看起來川普大概贏了是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，因為它還在開票、計票，我們可能不適合臆測。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，但是差這麼多耶！"],["蔡局長明彥：不適合臆測啦！這是外交分際，請委員可以理解。"],["賴委員士葆：不管怎麼樣，我先請教副部長，不過蔡局長要講話也可以講，大家都知道，原來今年初說臺灣的國防預算要到5%，然後在選舉的過程裡面說要到GDP的10%，我們現在大概占2.4%，對不對？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["賴委員士葆：所以5%的概念是什麼？就是現在六千多億的國防預算就變成一兆兩千多億；如果是10%，那就是2兆6,000億左右，我們的一年總預算是3兆，所以占我們的總預算超過八成，針對這樣的一個概念，國防部有這樣的想法嗎？會把它提這麼高嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我想國防預算也要看我們國家的財政狀況，這也是全體的共識，當然我們的國防預算是希望逐年成長，尤其是在現在的軍事環境的威脅情況之下，至於如何去成長，我認為還是看財政狀況以及未來的共識，大家如何採取一個國防的共識……"],["賴委員士葆：現在是占GDP2.5%左右，要提高到5%有沒有可能？短時間之內有沒有可能？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：短時間之內我看……"],["賴委員士葆：不可能嘛！你要大聲講不可能嘛，因為其他都不要做了啊，對不對？這個話應該要讓川普知道，他現在快當總統了，要讓他知道啊！結果我們現在都在這裡講，川普講的美國人都聽得到，你在這裡講美國人沒聽到。蔡局長要不要講一下？我們說短時間不可能到5%，這個聲音能不能讓美國知道？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重業管單位國防部的一些評估跟意見。"],["賴委員士葆：你是國安局長，也是要……"],["蔡局長明彥：因為國防部的預算是國防部在規劃的，我們外單位不好置評。"],["賴委員士葆：那我請問你，針對美國大選之後，你們國安單位有沒有開過國安會，就是說我們如何因應，有沒有幾套劇本因應？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛才也有跟其他委員說明，因為美國的選舉是一個滿長的動態過程，在這個過程當中，我們對於相關的發展都有一些討論，正式的國安會還沒有召開，因為剛剛總統府已經有對這一部分做說明了。"],["賴委員士葆：大概什麼時候會召開？"],["蔡局長明彥：這要由府方來宣布。"],["賴委員士葆：召開的話，你一定會到吧？原則上都會到嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：現在來講的話，我們的外交部次長在他的statement裡面講一個concern，又講一個worry，他就是關心川普會不會當選，然後又擔心川普會當選。如果川普當選，我看世界任何的媒體報導，看起來都是對臺灣有很大的壓力，請問這句話你同不同意？"],["蔡局長明彥：國際社會大家都在關注美國選情的狀況，臺灣方面我們也是高度的關注。"],["賴委員士葆：你會覺得他當選是個壓力嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：整體來講，因為川普政府也曾經執政過，在川普政府執政期間，臺灣方面不管跟國會或行政部門溝通合作都非常的順暢。"],["賴委員士葆：外界認為他最大的問題就是美國優先，原來是MAG，也就是Make America Great，現在加一個Again，讓美國再次偉大，他是一個生意人，就是他以美國為主，國際上的周邊組織儘量能夠不要管就不要管，或者如果要管的話就要付錢之類的，所以有學者就提到川普上來之後，大概我們要加入CPTPP會更困難，這個你怎麼看？"],["蔡局長明彥：各方面的評估意見我們都有在蒐集跟參考，也跟委員說明一下，我剛剛有提到在川普政府第一任期之內，臺美的合作是發展得非常順暢，包括也是在川普任內那四年美國對臺軍售制度化，如果我沒有記錯，在2020年川普政府時期派美國的軍艦穿越臺海達到13次，是歷史新高，所以合作的狀況都有。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊，但是你不要忘了，以川普時代和拜登時代相比，川普時代臺灣向美國買的武器（就是所謂的軍購）是拜登時代的三倍之多啊！所以大家就認為川普當選之後，他說要增加臺灣的保護費，pay for defense，這個是講保護費對吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個尊重委員的用語。"],["賴委員士葆：英文就是pay for defense，他就講保護費嘛！保護費的意思就只有三條途徑：第一個是直接付錢，像日本、韓國，因為有美軍駐在該地，所以直接付錢。第二個就是軍購，我認為軍購一定會再增加。第三個就是台積電2.0、3.0，多一點的台積電去那裡，因為他說臺灣偷了他們的晶片，所以讓臺灣的晶片廠多一點去那邊設廠，這個你有什麼看法？"],["蔡局長明彥：各種的評估都有，我們尊重委員的一些觀察，但選舉期間難免會有一些政策的說明跟一些政治的處理，不一定在選後會變成政策，所以我們會持續來觀察後續實際政策執行的狀況。"],["賴委員士葆：你認為川普不會要我們再提高國防經費嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分可能後續還要再觀察，因為選舉期間的一些用語，確實不一定能夠落實到後續真正政策的執行。"],["賴委員士葆：可是他講MAGA，要讓美國再次偉大，他一定是更加的……或者這樣問好了，他上來以後會不會重新重啟國際間的保護主義，會不會？"],["蔡局長明彥：這方面的討論很多，我們會持續的蒐研，看實際……"],["賴委員士葆：我們有沒有因應？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，而且跟委員……"],["賴委員士葆：我們有沒有因應？請問臺灣有沒有因應？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們有在蒐研兩個陣營，無論誰當選總統，未來不管是在國安或經貿的人事布局，這部分也都會影響後續的政策。"],["賴委員士葆：我們有幾套劇本來因應？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，各方面有在考慮。"],["賴委員士葆：幾套劇本？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有幾套啦，就整個人事的布局、政策的走向、後續他們印太政策可能的主要施政重點在哪裡，以及對臺灣會產生哪些影響，這大概都是我們評估的重點。"],["賴委員士葆：以印太來講的話，臺灣現在都沒有辦法加入IPEF，如果川普來的話更不容易！","最後一個，我請教柏副部長。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["賴委員士葆：關於我們的軍購，大家預估一定會買更多的美國武器，因為他過去已經有這個紀錄了嘛，他的任內比拜登多了三倍，對臺灣的防衛有幫助我們當然都歡迎，可是我們人員不夠啊！我們的報告裡面都寫、我們的預算裡面都有提到，就是志願役創歷年來的新低，我昨天問了顧部長，他說你們正在研議要給志願役加薪，有沒有這回事？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：有。"],["賴委員士葆：幅度怎麼樣？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：現在還在研議當中，因為這個牽扯到……我剛才還是特別強調如何留住人才、如何合理的留住志願役這樣子的人才，尤其我們在討論專長比例，什麼專長是我們非常需要的，來決定加薪的比例。"],["賴委員士葆：我在想你們要打出一個亮的口號嘛，現在志願役……以薪水來講，我們的少將、旅長都還不如美國的一個中士，我們志願役的薪水真的一定要大幅提升啦！那起薪有沒有可能像現在台積電招募所稱的年薪百萬起跳？最少這一任賴清德總統卸任以前、2027年年薪破百萬，護國神山！我們要護國神兵啊！破百萬有可能嗎？來，副部長，你說一下。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我想調薪這件事情我還是必須……"],["賴委員士葆：確定的？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我還是必須要強調，這還要看我們國家財政狀況來決定。"],["賴委員士葆：財政很好啊、財政很好啊！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：另外還要有全民的共識，我想調薪對我們軍人來講，本來就是一種鼓舞，目前朝這樣子的方向來發展，我們在研議當中。"],["賴委員士葆：你告訴我現在志願役的起薪多少錢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：志願役起薪依照各種不同階級標準都不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：4萬塊左右，差不多啊！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：差不多，對。"],["賴委員士葆：乘以13.5，五十幾萬嘛，對不對？那我說很快的調50%，目標2027破百萬，護國神山變護國神兵！這樣子跟台積電爭取人才啊，怎麼樣？我給你換個……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員的關注，我想委員的關注對我們都是一種鼓舞，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：應該說樂見其成啊，我做球給你都不敢接，蔡局長，對吧？我這個建議不是很好？你同意嘛，你點頭同意，蔡局長，說一下嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，我尊重委員的意見。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：尊重委員的意見。"],["賴委員士葆：要同意啦！這個東西是2027嘛，還早，你現在同意，做不到也沒有人會跟你究責，對不對？但是最少要大幅提升！不然的話，買了這麼多武器沒有好的人來，人都不夠、沒人要來，薪水太低嘛，就是這樣講啊！又有風險，我們的人跑去烏克蘭死了兩個了，請問一下，那位死的是去當傭兵，是不是？我們當然很不願意看到這個結果，請問你是不是傭兵？去烏克蘭死掉的是不是傭兵？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我想這是他們個人的志願，我不便評論。"],["賴委員士葆：臺灣有沒有可能引進傭兵制度？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們這個都不評論，這個東西……"],["賴委員士葆：不是！我問你啊，你們政策有沒有規劃這個？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們目前都沒有這樣子規劃。"],["賴委員士葆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員，局長跟副部長請回。","我們先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時44分）","繼續開會（11時51分）"],["主席：開始開會。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","羅智強、羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","已經登記質詢的委員除了不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有黃仁委員、陳永康委員、劉建國委員、羅智強委員、王鴻薇委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}