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麻煩請剛剛有報告的長官都一起上來好不好好 請剛剛以上我們有做口頭報告的這個各部會官員直接上這個備詢台我想主席在這邊先暫時先宣告一下因為今天那個鄭部長他大概腳傷那有點不舒服如果他待會有個人需求的話可能會有一張被的椅子還是要不要先拿出來吧椅子要不要就先拿出來"},{"start":35.267,"end":35.808,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":45.98,"end":62.566,"text":"來 部長 因為教育文化委員會嘛 教育部嘛那本期剛剛聆聽了四個部會的簡報大家都講得非常的漂亮又是跨部會合作 又是源頭管理 又是加強取締 又是打擊犯罪那我想請教部長 部長你認為現在電子煙的狀況 氾氾濫嚴不嚴重"},{"start":68.94,"end":77.124,"text":"根據剛才衛福部的統計數字以國中來講從1點幾到3點8、3點9這個數字確實是讓我有一點訝異很訝異是不是你覺得太高還是太低我覺得就國中生來講他確實不管他基於什麼樣的一個動機但是怎麼會去接觸這樣的一個接觸的"},{"start":100.334,"end":114.218,"text":"電子煙到目前為止我們台灣是規定20歲以下是吸紙煙嘛 對不對那電子煙到目前為止也是不合法嘛 對不對不合法所以說任何人都不能買嘛那部長你知不知道如果所以國中生來講的話要講什麼樣的暗號還是要什麼樣的管道才能夠去購買到電子煙"},{"start":121.64,"end":147.376,"text":"對不起,這一個我確實是不清楚本席告訴你啊,不需要啊不需要任何的暗號啊不需要任何的管道啊我說我去便利商店要買紫煙國中生要買紫煙便利商店的店員都來看一下身份證啊但是買電子煙一點身份認證都沒有啊來,我們來看一下我就說剛剛上來前我Google啊下一張我們先到最後一張"},{"start":151.069,"end":175.814,"text":"我Google打電子煙三個字兩個禮拜前我已經在未還委員會講過一次了很多委員也都提過說現在電子煙氾濫的程度是你們沒有辦法想像的結果Google電子煙我還不用打任何關鍵字我不用很聰明我不用打暗語電子煙三個字打了之後第一個搜尋是什麼衛福部下面四個是什麼"},{"start":178.291,"end":192.78,"text":"全都是電子煙的販賣官網耶他不是拍賣平台他不是小賣家他不是跟你隱晦他直接做官網給你看來我們再看上幾張看到上面有沒有長先驚喜滿千送百電子煙可以跟你來做促銷"},{"start":206.656,"end":233.446,"text":"部長,要不要猜一下現在電子煙有多少口味?國中生嘛,好奇嘛,蠻多嘛對,我們日常生活所有的水果、咖啡各方面的這個飲料的口味大概都有喔,部長你也算了解喔來,我們來看一下葡萄、荔枝、薄荷、哈密瓜、蜜桃、百香果全部應有盡有直接叫你加購物車"},{"start":234.793,"end":260.708,"text":"部長你再看一下那個價錢喔420塊國中生拿不拿得出來420塊我想現在以一般的家庭一個禮拜的零用錢可能幾百塊應該有他直接可以購買那為什麼我講說沒有身份認證因為這個上這個平台不用任何的身份不用任何的年齡限制他直接搜尋就搜尋得到再下一張免運費"},{"start":262.287,"end":284.103,"text":"可以說幫你送到72個小時3天的時間今天下訂3點後幫你送到全台灣任何一個便利商店學校附近有沒有便利商店有嗎有所以你們剛剛一直在講說我查緝學校附近的專賣店不用啊我上網之後我送到便利商店最後一張他很貼心啊"},{"start":285.014,"end":298.83,"text":"告訴你保障隱私所以提供隱秘的包裝服務不會註明內容物跟店家意思是什麼我今天去拿這個貨的時候我只要給錢他就直接給我不會查你的身份證件"},{"start":301.431,"end":328.886,"text":"如果說源頭不管理源頭如此的泛濫源頭如此的方便取得我今天教育部在一直講我要給老師我要給第一線的教官我要給老師什麼樣的一個稽查你覺得查得完嗎?是的我們把我們的所有責任沒有源頭管理然後我們把所有責任都給第一線的老師老師看到電子煙你要稽查你要取締但是學生有人權又不能收書包"},{"start":330.421,"end":348.928,"text":"然後結果沒想到這個買賣紫煙、酒類能不能在網路上購買能不能獲到付款不行耶連合法的紫煙跟酒類都不能在網路上獲到付款結果反而非法的電子煙那麼方便部長還有剛剛這幾位我們的長官們你們的每一個報告我都聽了我都看了"},{"start":361.004,"end":365.866,"text":"說稽查科技執法跨部會結果Google沒有人會用Google嗎大家稽查稽查什麼東西我想請教你們好意思在剛剛20分鐘前每一個人講說你們的報告在稽查結果Google一出來是這樣子的大方精美部長"},{"start":389.588,"end":405.334,"text":"你剛剛最後講到跨部會合作共同防制所以加強電子煙的查緝跟電子煙廣告的稽查建構較緊合作安全網路減少電子煙進入校園的機會分析"},{"start":406.991,"end":432.128,"text":"很希望你可以說到做到啊你要怎麼做跟委員報告這就是我進來520以後我事實上跟我們這個部會裡邊所以你從520到現在已經放任他四個多月又再放任他四個多月了我一直希望說校園不管霸凌或者陰害防制一定要整個從社區從包括警政的一個比較生態性的整體陳主委員剛才所提所以部長你覺得這是誰的問題學校的老師他真的力有未待對就是說"},{"start":436.551,"end":437.552,"text":"部長,學生現在能不能帶手機?"},{"start":465.971,"end":489.553,"text":"是的手機能不能5G上網可以學生可能他今天正在聽你這樣講的時候他可能他拿出手機來上網然後訂購三天後就可以在便利商店拿到貨文我們事實上已經跟這些傳播業者電信業者都已經在合作部長是跟誰在合作我們跟這個電信業者我們已經在談看怎麼樣去防制一些包括這個問題多久了來我們再到最後一頁"},{"start":494.502,"end":522.694,"text":"不覺得很諷刺嗎?其實本行...我說實在話台灣現在最大的問題是非法的東西比合法的東西好買不作為是政府官員的怠惰跟台灣最大的悲哀啊因為你不覺得看到這個狀況非常諷刺嗎?搜尋第一個是衛福部衛福部來我們請衛福部今天是副署長說實在話"},{"start":525.302,"end":550.874,"text":"我覺得非常難過是因為我兩個禮拜前直接跟著部長講部長也講說他要處理就過去兩個禮拜沒有耶感覺甚至變本加厲你看到這個情況你不覺得很諷刺嗎就是說我們衛福部的官網居然是跟其他販賣電子煙的擺在一起而且還比你多比你漂亮比你好看比你吸引人"},{"start":552.79,"end":555.871,"text":"所以我看到了這兩天有一個新聞叫做南投衛生局一個學生貼電子煙的圖片罰20萬對不對"},{"start":581.187,"end":591.872,"text":"是的有嗎有這個新聞一個學生貼一張電子煙的圖片罰20萬結果今天Google隨便查有一堆官網你們連下架能力都沒有"},{"start":593.134,"end":593.294,"text":"那是誰的問題 誰的問題"},{"start":622.488,"end":639.173,"text":"他還可以留在然後可以持續這是誰的問題這裡面其實需要看的是境內境外的我們在努力讓境內只要點TW的境內網站全部都封網了那境外網站會需要那個法務部還有今天數發部是不是有來來我再請教喔真的大家是覺得說這已經是麻木不仁到氾濫程度到那麼嚴重"},{"start":650.39,"end":675.772,"text":"我們就講說半年前性私密影像剛出來的時候全國大家都在關心有個論壇可以散發未成年的少年的照片媒體群起激憤報導可能會傷到我們民進黨政府的民調不到一天裡面訴發部、衛福部、教育部、相關部會"},{"start":677.592,"end":702.289,"text":"從你推我我推你到就讓那個官網就沒有辦法連結啦那現在電子煙的問題是不夠嚴重沒有人員傷亡還是因為它不夠有名還是它已經是氾濫到你管都不能管的程度所以說你讓它持續的在這邊我就說了剛剛副署長也承認了嘛兩個禮拜前我在外環委員會部長也知道啊"},{"start":703.186,"end":731.701,"text":"很多委員也關心啊我今天開第一炮我講的是我把它直接點出來因為我真的覺得說這樣的一個氾濫的程度背後到底有多少利益利益大到五個部會在這邊沒有一個人敢動他們沒有人敢動欸我都還沒有追查說財政部到底他的貨從哪裡來很多人講說Made in China海關偷渡來的啊"},{"start":733.059,"end":744.388,"text":"貨倉一個禮拜來一次啊但是今天五個部會站在這邊結果放任這樣的狀況沒有辦法處理沒有辦法負責沒有辦法下架沒有辦法遮蔽持續可以點部長我最後主席站起來了我其實整理真的很多很多質詢想要跟你討論啊但這個問題非常嚴重"},{"start":758.544,"end":767.515,"text":"我只想請教你今天自己講的第4頁跨部會合作共同防制什麼時候召開會議來討論要把這樣的問題給解決"},{"start":772.95,"end":795.906,"text":"也跟委員報告事實上卓院長在下個禮拜一也會有一個治安的一個匯報所以要推給卓院長部長你針對問題好不好你要推給卓院長我的意思是說我們本來內部就有一些然後我也跟事實上劉部長也提到說我們怎麼共同來建置一個像警務現在有一個APP的一個這樣一個"},{"start":798.308,"end":802.77,"text":"部長你到底知不知道我現在的問題是什麼?我跟你談Google搜尋隨便搜尋的到你跟我講警務App真的很麻木欸"},{"start":814.794,"end":830.98,"text":"我說這樣子真的很麻木 如果說我們連最基本的源頭管理都沒有防制的話那這樣子我們怎麼樣能夠阻止說電子煙進入到校園連校園的老師的責任都沒有辦法部長幫他們負責"},{"start":834.401,"end":834.541,"text":"你OK了嗎?"},{"start":856.215,"end":856.395,"text":"最後一句話"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":144,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時23分）主席謝謝，麻煩請剛剛有報告的長官都一起上來。"],["主席：請剛剛有做口頭報告的各部會官員直接上備詢臺。","主席在這邊暫時先宣告一下：今天鄭部長因為腳傷有點不舒服，如果他待會有個人需求的話，會有一張備的椅子讓他坐著。"],["洪委員孟楷：還是椅子要不要先拿出來？鄭部長腳受傷，是不是？"],["主席：沒關係，椅子就放在那裡，如果他有需求的話可能就會先坐下，所以主席先宣告一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：鄭部長自便，有不舒服你就坐一下。部長，因為教育及文化委員會、教育部，本席剛剛聆聽了四個部會的簡報，大家都講得非常漂亮，又是跨部會合作、又是源頭管理、又是加強取締、又是打擊犯罪，我想請教部長，你認為現在電子煙的狀況氾不氾濫、嚴不嚴重？"],["鄭部長英耀：根據剛才衛福部的統計數字，以國中來講，從百分之一點幾到3.8%、3.9%，這個數字確實是讓我有一點訝異。"],["洪委員孟楷：很訝異，是不是？你覺得太高還是太低？"],["鄭部長英耀：我覺得就國中生來講，不管他基於什麼樣的動機，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼會去接觸，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：這樣的接觸比例確實是有一點偏高，我們不希望……"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣規定20歲以下是吸紙菸，電子煙到目前為止也是不合法，所以任何人都不能買，部長，你知不知道以國中生來講，要講什麼樣的暗號，還是要什麼樣的管道才能夠購買到電子煙？"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起，這個我確實是不清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席告訴你不需要，不需要任何的暗號，不需要任何的管道，國中生去便利商店要買紙菸，便利商店的店員都還會看一下身分證，但是買電子煙卻一點身分認證都沒有。我們來看一下，我剛剛上來前用Google打「電子煙」3個字，兩個禮拜前我已經在衛環委員會講過一次了，很多委員也都有提過，現在電子煙氾濫的程度是你們沒有辦法想像的，我還不用打任何關鍵字，我不用很聰明，我不用打暗語，Google上打了「電子煙」3個字之後，第一個搜尋結果是什麼？衛福部，下面四個是什麼？全都是電子煙的販賣官網，它不是拍賣平臺，它不是小賣家，它不是跟你隱晦，它是直接做官網給你看。我們還看到這幾張圖片上面有「嘗鮮、驚喜、滿千送百」，電子煙可以來做促銷！部長要不要猜一下現在電子煙有多少口味？國中生好奇……"],["鄭部長英耀：還滿多的，我們日常生活所有的水果、咖啡、各方面的飲料口味大概都有。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你也算瞭解。我們來看一下，有葡萄、荔枝、薄荷、哈密瓜、蜜桃、百香果，全部應有盡有，直接叫你加購物車，部長，你再看一下那個價錢是420塊，國中生拿不拿得出420塊？現在以一般家庭一個禮拜的零用錢可能幾百塊應該有，他直接可以購買。為什麼我講沒有身分認證？因為上這個平臺不用任何的身分，不用任何的年齡限制，直接搜尋就搜尋得到。再來是免運費，72小時3天的時間可以到貨，今天下訂3天後幫你送到全臺灣任何一個便利商店，學校附近有沒有便利商店？"],["鄭部長英耀：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：有嘛！所以你們剛剛一直在講查緝學校附近的專賣店，不用啊！我可以上網購買之後再送到便利商店。最後，它很貼心，它告訴你為了保障隱私，所以提供隱密的包裝服務，不會註明內容物及店家，意思是什麼？我今天去拿這個貨的時候只要給錢，他就直接給我，不會查你的身分證件。如果源頭不管理，源頭如此的氾濫，源頭如此的方便取得，今天教育部一直在講要老師、第一線的教官怎麼樣稽查，你覺得查得完嗎？沒有源頭管理，我們把所有責任都丟給第一線的老師，老師看到電子煙要稽查、取締，但是學生有人權又不能搜書包，結果沒想到能夠這樣買賣。紙菸、酒類能不能在網路上購買？能不能貨到付款？不行！連合法的紙菸、酒類都不能在網路上購買後貨到付款，結果反而非法的電子煙那麼方便。","部長還有剛剛這幾位長官們，你們的每一個報告我都聽了、我都看了，你們說要稽查、科技執法、跨部會，結果沒有人會用Google嗎？我想請教大家稽查了什麼東西？你們好意思在剛剛20分鐘前，每一個人的報告都講你們在稽查，結果Google一出來是這樣子大方、精美！部長，你剛剛最後講到跨部會合作共同防制，會加強電子煙的查緝跟電子煙廣告的稽查，建構教警合作安全網絡，減少電子煙進入校園的機會，本席很希望你可以說到做到，你要怎麼做？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，跟委員報告，這就是我520進來以後，事實上跟我們部會裡……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你從520到現在已經放任它四個多月，又再放任它四個多月了？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，我一直希望校園不管霸凌或者菸害防制，一定要整個從社區，包括警政，比較生態系的整體，誠如委員剛才所提……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你覺得這是誰的問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：學校的老師真的力有未逮，我們臺灣……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，就是學校第一線的教師都跟我們說，如果源頭不管理的話，我們再怎麼查、再怎麼管，學生非常容易買到，這才是臺灣現在的問題嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們臺灣學術網路已經阻斷所有這些不當訊息，在學校他是沒有辦法透過網路去取得相關的訊息，所以我們也希望家長、社區，包括商家，整個學校共同……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，學生現在能不能帶手機？手機能不能5G上網？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：學生今天正在聽你這樣講的時候，可能他拿出手機來上網訂購，3天後就可以在便利商店拿到貨了。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們事實上跟這些電信業者都已經在合作……"],["洪委員孟楷：可不可以請教一下，部長，跟誰在合作？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們跟電信業者已經在談，看怎麼樣去防制一些包括……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個問題多久了？來，我們再到最後一頁，不覺得很諷刺嗎？我說實在話，臺灣現在最大的問題是非法的東西比合法的東西好買，不作為是政府官員的怠惰跟臺灣最大的悲哀啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：我們在努力……"],["洪委員孟楷：你不覺得看到這個狀況非常諷刺嗎？搜尋第一個是衛福部，來，我們請衛福部，今天是副署長，說實在話，我覺得非常難過，因為我兩個禮拜前直接跟部長講，部長也講說他要處理，結果過去兩個禮拜，沒有耶！感覺甚至變本加厲耶！"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：看到這個情況，你不覺得很諷刺嗎？我們衛福部的官網居然是跟其他販賣電子煙的擺在一起，而且還比你多、比你漂亮、比你好看、比你吸引人！我們是化外之地是不是？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，兩個禮拜前的衛環委員會質詢之後，我們已經更積極地跟地方共同來做一些查處，另外在……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以我看到了這兩天有一個新聞，一個學生貼電子煙的圖片被南投衛生局罰20萬，對不對？"],["賈副署長淑麗：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：有嘛！"],["賈副署長淑麗：有這個新聞。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個學生貼一張電子煙的圖片罰20萬，結果今天Google隨便查，有一堆官網，你們連下架能力都沒有，你們只敢打學生，我們衛福部的大砲只敢針對一個國中生，結果這一些人……"],["賈副署長淑麗：委員，不是這樣的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我都不知道這些人的背景到底有多硬、利益有多大……"],["賈副署長淑麗：沒有，我們其實……"],["洪委員孟楷：不然為什麼他們可以持續在這邊，留在這邊一天，就是對我們中華民國政府的諷刺多一天，也就是嘲笑我們官員怠惰跟無能多一天，不覺得嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們其實有跟所有的網路公司、網路平臺進行積極的開會……"],["洪委員孟楷：那是誰的問題？它還可以留著，然後可以持續……這是誰的問題？"],["賈副署長淑麗：這裡面其實需要看的是境內、境外，我們的努力讓只要是「.tw」的境內網站全部都封網；境外網站我們需要……"],["洪委員孟楷：來，法務部，還有今天數發部是不是也有來？我再請教，大家真的覺得這已經是麻木不仁，氾濫程度到那麼嚴重，我們就講半年前性私密影像剛出來的時候，全國大家都在關心，有個論壇可以散發未成年少年的照片，媒體群起激憤報導，可能會傷到民進黨政府的民調，不到一天，數發部、衛福部、教育部等相關部會，從你推我、我推你，到可以讓那個官網沒有辦法連結了。現在電子煙的問題是不夠嚴重，沒有人員傷亡，還是因為它不夠有名，還是它已經是氾濫到你管都不能管的程度，所以你讓它持續的在這邊？我就說了，剛剛副署長也承認了，兩個禮拜前我在衛環委員會，部長也知道，很多委員也關心，我今天開第一砲，我把它直接點出來，是因為我真的覺得這樣的氾濫程度，背後到底有多大的利益，利益大到五個部會在這邊沒有一個人敢動他們，沒有人敢動耶！我都還沒有追查財政部到底它的貨從哪裡來？很多人講說Made in China，海關偷渡來的，貨艙一個禮拜來一次。但是今天五個部會站在這邊，結果放任這樣的狀況，沒有辦法處理、沒有辦法負責、沒有辦法下架、沒有辦法遮蔽，持續可以點。","最後，部長，主席站起來了，我其實真的整理很多質詢想要跟你討論，這個問題非常嚴重，我只是想請教，你今天自己講的，第4頁跨部會合作共同防制，什麼時候召開會議來討論，要把這樣的問題給解決？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上卓院長在下個禮拜一也會有一個治安的會報……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以要推給卓院長？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們在那邊也都會……"],["主席：部長，你針對問題好不好？回答一下什麼時候就好。"],["洪委員孟楷：你要推給卓院長？"],["鄭部長英耀：不是，我的意思是說我們本來內部就有一些，然後劉部長也提到我們怎麼樣共同來建置，像警務現在有這樣的app，它就可以用來防制校園的霸凌或者菸害防制的通報……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你到底知不知道我現在問題是什麼？我跟你談Google隨便都搜尋得到，你跟我講警務app？真的很麻木耶！"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，跟委員報告，我們真的有在努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣子真的很麻木，如果我們連最基本的源頭管理都沒有防制的話，那我們怎麼樣能夠阻止電子煙進入到校園？"],["鄭部長英耀：是不是容我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：連校園老師的責任都沒有辦法由部長來幫他們分擔、部長來幫他們負責。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們來跨部會，我們來邀請像今天的部會來研擬，然後會後再來跟委員報告。"],["主席：洪委員，因為時間已經超過很多了，會後請部長再跟洪委員仔細報告一下，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們一定會來邀集今天報告的這些相關官員，確實從源頭，包括數位……"],["主席：部長，時間到了，如果你要繼續講，我就給洪委員再一次10分鐘。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝，主席抱歉。"],["主席：你OK了嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：OK。"],["主席：我想這樣好不好？我們今天也是要打開耳朵去聽一下委員質詢在講什麼，如果一直搶著話講，我們沒有辦法去解決問題，所以請各部會官員稍微注意一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：我最後一句話，在臺灣非法的東西比合法的東西好買，這是官員的怠惰跟不作為，是我們國家最大的問題跟悲哀。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來有請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}