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,{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:04.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:23.545000+08:00","text":"主委，首先想就我們原住民族工作權的部分跟您就教，您應該瞭解原住民族工作權保障法第十二條規定，政府採購法的廠商沒有使用一定人數的原住民是不是要繳納代金？是。是嘛！","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:23.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:24.545000+08:00","text":"根據大法官釋字第810號解釋「計算所應繳納之代金金額超過採購金額，可能造成個案顯然過荷之情狀……有關機關應至遲於本解釋公布之日起2年內（112年10月27日）依本解釋意旨修正之」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:24.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:25.545000+08:00","text":"現在就是用少聘的人數乘上基本工資，或者不超過採購金額的部分，是不是？是。是嘛！","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:25.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:26.545000+08:00","text":"所以這些處罰的目的是為了收罰款，還是為了保障原住民的工作權？","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:26.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:27.545000+08:00","text":"最主要是保障原住民。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:27.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:28.545000+08:00","text":"對，最主要是保障嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:28.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:29.545000+08:00","text":"立法的目的是為了保障原住民的工作權，但現在這樣子也沒有辦法保障工作權，那你們現在怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:29.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:30.545000+08:00","text":"針對這個狀況，我們也有開過幾個會，希望針對這個狀況看能不能……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:30.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:31.545000+08:00","text":"大法官解釋的結果並沒有辦法真正保障到工作權，你們有沒有打算送案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:31.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:32.545000+08:00","text":"我們目前正在修法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:32.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:33.545000+08:00","text":"什麼時候要送出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:33.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:34.545000+08:00","text":"已經送了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:34.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:35.545000+08:00","text":"已經送到行政院了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:35.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:36.545000+08:00","text":"儘快好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:36.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:37.545000+08:00","text":"行政院通過之後，儘快送到立法院。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:37.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:38.545000+08:00","text":"再來，臺北市促進原住民族就業自治條例法規在111年修正，為什麼到113年才突然說違憲？","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:38.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:39.545000+08:00","text":"已經實施兩年的法案突然說違憲，請問地方如何能夠安心？","quality":0.042},{"speaker":"羅處長赫踛","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:39.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:40.545000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為過去我們在臺北市有一個浩然的案例在，我們等到它判決之後……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:40.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:41.545000+08:00","text":"才發現？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅處長赫踛","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:41.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:42.545000+08:00","text":"對，確定浩然那邊是敗訴，所以我們在後面……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:27.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:43:30.970000+08:00","text":"我們希望原住民族委員會的主委和整個團隊要有效率，讓原住民族能夠安心好不好？","quality":0.343},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:43:50.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:45:59.323000+08:00","text":"第二個，原住民保留地立法的目的應該是為了保障族人的生計，所以保留了原住民傳統領域土地，是不是？是。是嘛！","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:46:00.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:46:03.927000+08:00","text":"請問沒有原住民身分的人可以買原住民的土地嗎？不能。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:46:04.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:46:04.687000+08:00","text":"不能嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:46:05.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:46:18.070000+08:00","text":"既然您知道不能的話，有沒有聽說不是原住民，但是借原住民的名義來土地登記原住民保留地、來使用原住民保留地的情況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:46:18.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:46:19.350000+08:00","text":"您是否了解？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-11-11T10:46:19.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:46:19.871000+08:00","text":"我知道有這樣的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:46:19.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:46:19.911000+08:00","text":"很多吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:46:19.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:46:19.971000+08:00","text":"那怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:46:19.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:46:45.002000+08:00","text":"保留地開發管理辦法就是為了保障原住民族的生計，結果現在卻遭到用高額抵押權的方式借名登記，讓原住民保留地不斷的流失，有沒有什麼預防性的政策跟做法？","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"謝處長亞杰","start":"2024-11-11T10:46:45.002000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:46:50.968400+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，針對委員關切有關於借名登記或者是……","quality":0.238},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:46:50.968400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:46:56.934800+08:00","text":"你不用再重複我的問題，趕快答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝處長亞杰","start":"2024-11-11T10:46:56.934800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:47:02.901200+08:00","text":"我們在原住民保留地權利回復及管理利用條例已經有訂定私有原保地不能設定抵押權給非原住民的規定，這個部分我們已經……","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:47:02.901200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:47:08.867600+08:00","text":"已經設定的怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:47:08.867600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:47:14.834000+08:00","text":"就算了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:47:14.834000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:47:20.800400+08:00","text":"少掉一半了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝處長亞杰","start":"2024-11-11T10:47:20.800400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:47:26.766800+08:00","text":"這個部分我們有統計。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:47:26.766800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:47:32.733200+08:00","text":"就本席手上的資料，大概快要50%了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:47:32.733200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:47:38.699600+08:00","text":"我們才剛通過原住民保留地禁伐補償，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:47:38.699600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:47:44.666000+08:00","text":"會不會又有很多非原住民運用相同方式取得禁伐補償？","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-11-11T10:47:44.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:47:48.368000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，關於委員所講的這是有人頭的問題，當然我們知道，但是實際上……","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:47:48.368000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:47:50.229000+08:00","text":"你們沒辦法、沒作為？","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-11-11T10:47:50.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:48:04.157000+08:00","text":"實際上現在還是原住民的名義，就是登記的所有權還是原住民，只是它是走一個脫法的行為在處理，這個我們也知道，我們的管理條例也在立法，未來要阻止這個事情的發生。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-11-11T10:48:04.157000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:48:11.538333+08:00","text":"另外，有關禁伐補償有沒有人頭的部分，事實上，我們目前也在清查，我們在了解一些大面積的部分是不是有這樣的情形，我們目前在調相關資料，因為這涉及到個資法……","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:48:11.538333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:48:18.919667+08:00","text":"你們還在調？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:48:18.919667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:48:26.301000+08:00","text":"我們都知道有一半都被拿去抵押了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-11-11T10:48:26.301000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:48:33.682333+08:00","text":"委員，抵押的部分我們這邊都有資料。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:48:33.682333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:48:41.063667+08:00","text":"我們看到上個月原民會好像有預告訂定原住民保留地權利回復及管理利用條例的草案，對不對？對。","quality":0.098},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:48:41.063667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:48:48.445000+08:00","text":"這裡面是不是已經把借名登記的部分納入了此次修法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-11-11T10:48:48.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:48:55.826333+08:00","text":"我們針對剛剛委員所說高額抵押的這個部分有做一些處理，就是未來原住民保留地的抵押只能夠在公營行庫，一般私人的不行。","quality":0.094},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:48:55.826333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:49:03.207667+08:00","text":"對，大部分都到私人……","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-11-11T10:49:03.207667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:49:10.589000+08:00","text":"因為從私人的部分就會看到這個大概都有一些其他的內幕在裡面，可能透過這樣的流程變成實質上的流失。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:49:10.589000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:49:17.970333+08:00","text":"好，請你們儘快改善好不好？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:49:17.970333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:49:25.351667+08:00","text":"接下來是剛剛高金委員有問到的，本席也要特別詢問，就是在114年度你們的預算裡面有南島民族論壇總部維運費440萬，其中的工作項目包括協助帛琉語的字詞典編纂，我們不太知道這個為什麼要由你們編？","quality":0.072},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:49:25.351667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:49:32.733000+08:00","text":"這是第一個問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:49:32.733000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:49:40.114333+08:00","text":"南島民族論壇這個部分剛剛高金委員也詢問過，接著還有一項，你們辦理原住民住宅業務及多元居住協助相關經費，你們上面寫的績效指標是要宣傳1,000人，編了350萬，為了宣傳1,000人編了350萬！","quality":0.039},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:49:40.114333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:49:47.495667+08:00","text":"本席告訴你，如果要宣傳1,000人，你找10個人，一個人一天給他2,000塊或2,500塊，一天找10個人去宣傳，難道沒有1,000人嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:49:47.495667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:49:54.877000+08:00","text":"就1,000人，我2萬5,000元解決，你卻要花350萬？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:49:54.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:50:02.258333+08:00","text":"以上這些問題請主委回答一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-11-11T10:50:02.258333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:50:09.639667+08:00","text":"第一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:50:09.639667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:50:17.021000+08:00","text":"我們為什麼要去幫帛琉語的字詞典編纂？","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-11-11T10:50:17.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:50:24.402333+08:00","text":"我們南島民族論壇……","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:50:24.402333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:50:31.783667+08:00","text":"就算要的話，再怎麼樣也是外交的費用，為什麼是原住民呢？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-11-11T10:50:31.783667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:50:39.165000+08:00","text":"南島民族論壇的總部在帛琉，因為帛琉他們一直希望我們來挹注這樣的經費，因為我們需要它來做一個總部，來跟南島的一些國家，包括馬紹爾還有帛琉等等，希望所有的南島國家都能夠連結，我們很需要帛琉這邊的工作人員來協助，所以他們希望我們協助他們自己國家的詞典編纂，我們也願意來幫忙，好讓這個工作能夠更順利的推展。","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:50:39.165000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:50:46.546333+08:00","text":"那你們有什麼成果？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:50:46.546333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:50:53.927667+08:00","text":"你們每年都在編。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-11-11T10:50:53.927667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:01.309000+08:00","text":"我們有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:01.309000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:08.690333+08:00","text":"總部維運就是要這樣進行就對了？","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:08.690333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:16.071667+08:00","text":"我們現在跟南島國家的友誼，因為南島國家其實就是我們自己家裡人一樣，我們不是在做外交，我們是在做自己家裡人的連結……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:16.071667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:23.453000+08:00","text":"好，那你接著說明有關宣傳的部分，宣傳1,000人要350萬！","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"劉處長哲維","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:23.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:30.177000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這350萬主要是補助地方政府推動建構住宅的業務費，因為它需要一些業務費來推動。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"劉處長哲維","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:30.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:34.259000+08:00","text":"至於KPI 1,000，的確我們寫得比較保守，事實上比這個多啦！","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:34.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:37.640000+08:00","text":"那事實上是多少？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉處長哲維","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:38.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:40.282000+08:00","text":"我們會後統計再將資料提供給委員，絕對比這個高很多。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:40.282000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:41.282000+08:00","text":"還有會後統計？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:41.282000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:42.282000+08:00","text":"再來，地方政府你怎麼給？","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:42.282000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:43.282000+08:00","text":"你這350萬要怎麼給？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉處長哲維","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:43.282000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:44.282000+08:00","text":"我們放在補助款裡面，是按照它核定戶數的比例去設算業務費給的比例。","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:44.282000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:45.282000+08:00","text":"你們這一個一定要交代。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:45.282000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:46.282000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-11T10:51:44.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-11T10:51:44.775000+08:00","text":"請蘇巧慧委員。","quality":0.333}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1054,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時42分）謝謝主席，本席請曾主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。主委，首先想就我們原住民族工作權的部分跟您就教，您應該瞭解原住民族工作權保障法第十二條規定，政府採購法的廠商沒有使用一定人數的原住民是不是要繳納代金？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是嘛！根據大法官釋字第810號解釋「計算所應繳納之代金金額超過採購金額，可能造成個案顯然過荷之情狀……有關機關應至遲於本解釋公布之日起2年內（112年10月27日）依本解釋意旨修正之」。現在就是用少聘的人數乘上基本工資，或者不超過採購金額的部分，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是嘛！所以這些處罰的目的是為了收罰款，還是為了保障原住民的工作權？"],["曾主任委員智勇：最主要是保障原住民。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，最主要是保障嘛！立法的目的是為了保障原住民的工作權，但現在這樣子也沒有辦法保障工作權，那你們現在怎麼辦？"],["曾主任委員智勇：針對這個狀況，我們也有開過幾個會，希望針對這個狀況看能不能……"],["徐委員欣瑩：大法官解釋的結果並沒有辦法真正保障到工作權，你們有沒有打算送案？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們目前正在修法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼時候要送出來？"],["曾主任委員智勇：已經送了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：已經送到行政院了？儘快好不好？行政院通過之後，儘快送到立法院。","再來，臺北市促進原住民族就業自治條例法規在111年修正，為什麼到113年才突然說違憲？已經實施兩年的法案突然說違憲，請問地方如何能夠安心？"],["羅處長赫踛：跟委員報告，因為過去我們在臺北市有一個浩然的案例在，我們等到它判決之後……"],["徐委員欣瑩：才發現？"],["羅處長赫踛：對，確定浩然那邊是敗訴，所以我們在後面……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望原住民族委員會的主委和整個團隊要有效率，讓原住民族能夠安心好不好？","第二個，原住民保留地立法的目的應該是為了保障族人的生計，所以保留了原住民傳統領域土地，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是嘛！請問沒有原住民身分的人可以買原住民的土地嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不能。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不能嘛！既然您知道不能的話，有沒有聽說不是原住民，但是借原住民的名義來土地登記原住民保留地、來使用原住民保留地的情況？您是否了解？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我知道有這樣的狀況。"],["徐委員欣瑩：很多吧！那怎麼辦？保留地開發管理辦法就是為了保障原住民族的生計，結果現在卻遭到用高額抵押權的方式借名登記，讓原住民保留地不斷的流失，有沒有什麼預防性的政策跟做法？"],["謝處長亞杰：跟委員報告，針對委員關切有關於借名登記或者是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不用再重複我的問題，趕快答。"],["謝處長亞杰：我們在原住民保留地權利回復及管理利用條例已經有訂定私有原保地不能設定抵押權給非原住民的規定，這個部分我們已經……"],["徐委員欣瑩：已經設定的怎麼辦？就算了嗎？少掉一半了！"],["謝處長亞杰：這個部分我們有統計。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就本席手上的資料，大概快要50%了！我們才剛通過原住民保留地禁伐補償，對不對？會不會又有很多非原住民運用相同方式取得禁伐補償？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：跟委員報告，關於委員所講的這是有人頭的問題，當然我們知道，但是實際上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們沒辦法、沒作為？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：實際上現在還是原住民的名義，就是登記的所有權還是原住民，只是它是走一個脫法的行為在處理，這個我們也知道，我們的管理條例也在立法，未來要阻止這個事情的發生。另外，有關禁伐補償有沒有人頭的部分，事實上，我們目前也在清查，我們在了解一些大面積的部分是不是有這樣的情形，我們目前在調相關資料，因為這涉及到個資法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們還在調？我們都知道有一半都被拿去抵押了。"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：委員，抵押的部分我們這邊都有資料。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們看到上個月原民會好像有預告訂定原住民保留地權利回復及管理利用條例的草案，對不對？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這裡面是不是已經把借名登記的部分納入了此次修法？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：我們針對剛剛委員所說高額抵押的這個部分有做一些處理，就是未來原住民保留地的抵押只能夠在公營行庫，一般私人的不行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，大部分都到私人……"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：因為從私人的部分就會看到這個大概都有一些其他的內幕在裡面，可能透過這樣的流程變成實質上的流失。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，請你們儘快改善好不好？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：接下來是剛剛高金委員有問到的，本席也要特別詢問，就是在114年度你們的預算裡面有南島民族論壇總部維運費440萬，其中的工作項目包括協助帛琉語的字詞典編纂，我們不太知道這個為什麼要由你們編？這是第一個問題。南島民族論壇這個部分剛剛高金委員也詢問過，接著還有一項，你們辦理原住民住宅業務及多元居住協助相關經費，你們上面寫的績效指標是要宣傳1,000人，編了350萬，為了宣傳1,000人編了350萬！本席告訴你，如果要宣傳1,000人，你找10個人，一個人一天給他2,000塊或2,500塊，一天找10個人去宣傳，難道沒有1,000人嗎？就1,000人，我2萬5,000元解決，你卻要花350萬？以上這些問題請主委回答一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：第一個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們為什麼要去幫帛琉語的字詞典編纂？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們南島民族論壇……"],["徐委員欣瑩：就算要的話，再怎麼樣也是外交的費用，為什麼是原住民呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：南島民族論壇的總部在帛琉，因為帛琉他們一直希望我們來挹注這樣的經費，因為我們需要它來做一個總部，來跟南島的一些國家，包括馬紹爾還有帛琉等等，希望所有的南島國家都能夠連結，我們很需要帛琉這邊的工作人員來協助，所以他們希望我們協助他們自己國家的詞典編纂，我們也願意來幫忙，好讓這個工作能夠更順利的推展。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你們有什麼成果？你們每年都在編。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們有啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：總部維運就是要這樣進行就對了？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們現在跟南島國家的友誼，因為南島國家其實就是我們自己家裡人一樣，我們不是在做外交，我們是在做自己家裡人的連結……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那你接著說明有關宣傳的部分，宣傳1,000人要350萬！"],["劉處長哲維：報告委員，這350萬主要是補助地方政府推動建構住宅的業務費，因為它需要一些業務費來推動。至於KPI 1,000，的確我們寫得比較保守，事實上比這個多啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：那事實上是多少？"],["劉處長哲維：我們會後統計再將資料提供給委員，絕對比這個高很多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有會後統計？再來，地方政府你怎麼給？你這350萬要怎麼給？"],["劉處長哲維：我們放在補助款裡面，是按照它核定戶數的比例去設算業務費給的比例。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們這一個一定要交代。"],["劉處長哲維：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["劉處長哲維：謝謝。"],["主席：請蘇巧慧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張智倫","林倩綺","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳瑩","許宇甄","黃仁","丁學忠"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中\n央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分；三、審查 114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金─原住民族綜合發展基金；\n四、審查原住民族委員會函送財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會及財團法人原住民族語言研究發\n展基金會114年度預算書案；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於不當黨產處理委員會單位預\n算","agenda_id":"1139601_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}