{"error":false,"id":["156672"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":156672,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156672","日期":"2024-11-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"公聽會-2024110659","會議代碼:str":"「稅務行政事件審理法草案」公聽會","屆":11,"會期":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"公聽會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「稅務行政事件審理法草案」公聽會）"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-11-11T10:49:36+08:00","結束時間":"2024-11-11T10:59:57+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:21","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69f47f638dd393350e4c0840059c77ef391a02e3bc7edb1fcc3b44aa4b1a787b5ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:49:36 - 10:59:57","會議時間":"2024-11-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「稅務行政事件審理法草案」公聽會）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.7690937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.85284375,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.501593750000001,"end":20.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.972843750000003,"end":24.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.83721875,"end":26.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.840968750000002,"end":28.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.460968750000003,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.570343750000003,"end":32.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.05534375,"end":34.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.60784375,"end":35.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.94096875,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.68284375,"end":60.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.27034375,"end":62.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.805968750000005,"end":105.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.93846875000001,"end":113.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.93721875000001,"end":115.08471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.54034375,"end":118.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.77596875,"end":148.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.71659375000002,"end":153.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.84659375,"end":154.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.33159375,"end":175.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.39596875,"end":201.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.97409375,"end":225.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.76784375000003,"end":227.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.14721875,"end":229.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.64909375000002,"end":242.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.96346875,"end":244.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.10659375,"end":247.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.71784375000001,"end":260.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.13784375,"end":264.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.64784375,"end":265.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.04846875000004,"end":267.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.00596875,"end":271.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.42721875,"end":273.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.94596875,"end":297.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.26284375,"end":299.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.15284375000005,"end":302.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.35909375,"end":306.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.75096875,"end":310.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.91909375,"end":311.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.88096875,"end":322.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.74409375000005,"end":325.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.42721875,"end":328.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.14409375,"end":329.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.19034375,"end":332.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.87346875000003,"end":339.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.97784375000003,"end":339.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.04534375000003,"end":348.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.22534375000004,"end":351.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.76909375,"end":378.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.89159375,"end":384.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.37159375000005,"end":400.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.33096875,"end":407.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.81534375,"end":414.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.45971875000004,"end":455.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.55471875,"end":459.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.99284375,"end":463.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.73471875,"end":470.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.89409375,"end":479.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.15846875000005,"end":485.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.59221875000003,"end":491.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.83159375,"end":497.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.65346875000006,"end":506.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.51721875000004,"end":514.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.8703437500001,"end":515.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.7647187499999,"end":515.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.06846875,"end":521.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.6709687499999,"end":524.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.25284375,"end":552.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.4128437500001,"end":569.7647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.50721875,"end":575.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.4978437500001,"end":579.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.8684687500001,"end":582.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.6740937500001,"end":621.2165937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.111,"end":1.892,"text":"之後我們就休息10分鐘謝謝眾委員還有我們在場所有的學者專家還有我們列席的官員大家早安辛苦我想我剛坐在這個台下在那邊聆聽感觸非常多有一些話想要來講這整個我們稅務行政事件審理法這個草案在我們稍後法制委員會在審的時候"},{"start":27.878,"end":28.661,"text":"我曾經講過一句話我在場啊"},{"start":31.616,"end":60.024,"text":"有辦法審出來的有辦法審 有能力審的有3個我就要求我們諸位我們召委一定要召開這個公聽每一次在這種這種重大的一個法律的一個修訂的時候我都特別有感覺就是說其實中間過程吵吵鬧鬧都很正常可是往前再去推的話就是一個進步可是在我們司法法制委員會裡面你說光各位剛提出的這些問題"},{"start":61.623,"end":85.7,"text":"這個是要讓我們整個委員會裡面來最後做出決定不容易會受到行政部門司法部門的影響會比較大因為畢竟這部法令裡面也經過了我看至少有超過兩年的一個時間在各界不管是司法院或者說在會計師或者律師界有這麼多學者專家大家共同來參與"},{"start":87.582,"end":104.837,"text":"會有這樣一個版本出來其實也是緩步將在前進那如果這一次我們在司法法制委員會出了以後我相信胡龍一下子在院會就會通過法律的修訂常常都是如此可是我必須要提出來就是說"},{"start":106.021,"end":117.747,"text":"我也一直在看這部法律到底要怎麼樣去定性我比較擔心的是說你一部法令如果定了以後啊那到最後很多判決出來"},{"start":119.824,"end":147.828,"text":"造成社會上尤其是比較專業的人出來在吶喊這對整個司法的一個公正性其實是有傷害那在這個整個訴訟過程當中啊你怎麼樣去讓老百姓去感受到你法官做出一個判決他是具備公正性的或者在這個過程裡面你覺得他是有效率的不會讓我這個身為老百姓的在法院這邊來回這樣子去做一個奔波"},{"start":148.806,"end":174.665,"text":"在中間的過程裡面又涉及到那麼多的一個技術性的確實喔我最近一直在想這個問題那該怎麼辦那你一般在講說我們民事訴訟說當事人在進行主義那刑事訴訟的部分又類似於比較有法官比較過去是職權進行那你在這個整個行政我們這個整個稅務行政事件裡面你要把法官定性成什麼"},{"start":175.606,"end":193.991,"text":"我記得我上一次在質詢的時候我就特別提出來那個副秘書長跟那個我們稅務誒 當時財政部是政事還是稅務署我忘了我特別跟他講到這個整個稅審官的部分我說我不跟你談法律啦我就認為這個設計喔有一點點我們現在如果用這樣採這樣的一個設計的話你對當事人對稅審官來講沒有期待可能性啊他那個角色的一個問題"},{"start":202.253,"end":227.027,"text":"角色的一個問題我會比較站在老百姓的立場我會認為這個五七就有點不平等啊憲法的設計就很好玩我們憲法的設計19條就很明顯的就講說人民有依法納稅的一個義務好啦 框在這個地方啦重點是說增值來以後我們這部法律本來可以解決掉很多萬年稅單的一個問題可是呢這個看起來都是"},{"start":228.188,"end":228.288,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":248.806,"end":263.015,"text":"法官的一個養成真的是這樣子幾個小時﹖或者說幾天的時間﹖大家密集來授訊﹖就有能力來審這樣的一個案件嗎﹖摸著良心﹖我比較擔心"},{"start":268.098,"end":288.292,"text":"一定會被稅審官牽著走這是勢必的我沒那麼厲害吳宗憲委員剛剛也是法律專家可是他就是檢察官出身嘛不要說你民法摸得少就算你在民庭的或者是一個律師你專門在打民事可是民事的領域又有多大那我們有辦法真的是期待我們稅務行政事件審理的法官在那麼短的"},{"start":299.038,"end":321.263,"text":"訓練裏面真的有辦法去承擔這樣的一個指揮訴訟或者到最後做出一個判決要做出一個非常好的判決讓人家拍手的不容易但是要做出一個判決讓人家一直可以跟你幹驕跳出毛病的那又很簡單譬如說副秘書長你現在代理秘書長你的研究發了14人"},{"start":323.8,"end":328.184,"text":"叫你來審 你是多大而已沒有摸過 不會就是不會啊真的啊我記得我在當小律師的時候啊我也只能在稅務這個部分稍稍涉略以後 我就怕到了你知道嗎那個太龐雜了那個太龐雜了我簡單講一個你說一個繼承案件裡面涉及到你多少債務要我多少債務要去把它扣除掉"},{"start":352.81,"end":358.354,"text":"各位如果說你是國稅局的 我告訴你 我就欠總裁員多少 只有這條證明有多久呢我如果說留下來的時候 那個國票 那個都沒有試駕 未上市的有多少光這一些喔 你說到最後 這個過程涉及到那麼多專業的一個判斷要交給我們整個稅務行政事件的審理的法官 去一次把它做一個終極的一個決定"},{"start":378.971,"end":394.282,"text":"我看實在是不容易但是我也期許各位的意見拜託多一點給我們一點書面我相信我們在司法法制委員會我們也會努力就把各位的意見來做一個權衡在審理的過程裡面我們會很仔細的去把關"},{"start":402.346,"end":402.386,"text":"主席"},{"start":426.773,"end":439.559,"text":"到最後如果 其實確實是重要 過了以後你們要準備二次修法啦真的啦 一定會的啦 常常都會是這樣子啦我看以前這個民事訴訟委員會 研討委員會 修法委員會 或者行政訴訟大家都定期這樣在討論 我都一直覺得行政訴訟 誒 程振秀老師 我看你們都失職啦你們應該都故意賺錢而已啊 不然大家看這樣找比較多人 有時間就大家好好研究 這個才會進步啊"},{"start":455.686,"end":461.471,"text":"我看民事訴訟在修法的過程裡面到最後為什麼會變得會比較順利就研討的過程裡面有權威見解會出現整個大廈到變成權威教授權威見解 權威律師這樣大家都在走比較不會淡淡不然現在你在稅務行政的部分到最後我跟大家報告這不是貶抑大家"},{"start":480.219,"end":484.742,"text":"立法院很多同事問我說 什麼人比較權威啊 我們來找那個好不好人會跟著一起走的話 內心會走得比較安全因為我們不容易隨便便 說你一個法律 我就聽誰的就過去聽司法院的 聽 聽他再說一說 他又官方聽民間 又不知道要聽誰的聽律師改的 待會想律師改 都要探錢而已"},{"start":506.987,"end":513.17,"text":"你聽法官的 法官很明顯你就是不管是法官或者律師你過去的養成你確實是 你就連課錢也不課就這樣 說一句實在啦所以大家最後胡亂吞早 是因為大家程度都不錯"},{"start":521.713,"end":521.813,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":537.091,"end":537.611,"text":"法學專家"},{"start":553.762,"end":579.335,"text":"我是覺得這個部分也應該有義務以各位都有那個能力來一起來推進立法院你們不要期待太多啦立法院我們是可以這樣你的意見我們拿來看一看就比較有道理我們司法及法制委員會真的送出去以後院會幾乎都會差不多嘛會尊重我們嘛因為畢竟這是比較專業的可是在審法的過程 修法的過程裡面請各位你們去看直播"},{"start":580.882,"end":584.765,"text":"會發言才會這樣他講不下去,真的講不下去,真的講不下去所以這個真的是也要拜託大家我們盡量來讓這一部法令來做一個完備啦確實是可以一次來做一個解決不然以前的行政法院大家被批評的就是你就把人家撤銷而已,撤銷而已你把人家駁回,你把人家駁回,你把人家駁回"},{"start":600.317,"end":600.337,"text":"莊委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}