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要鬥臭臺中市市長盧秀燕為什麼呢這也真正的作死了民進黨就會搞鬥爭的一個現象"},{"start":2586.687,"end":2592.183,"text":"現在政府執政了8年,台電電力變成一本爛帳。"},{"start":2593.314,"end":2617.325,"text":"缺電跳電問題不斷每一天都有官員出來說市院不漲價電價不行囉經濟部長更說不調漲電價臺電會有財務危機陳建宇院長你更好笑的是說我們要感謝臺電但是臺電要做什麼呢反映成本"},{"start":2618.91,"end":2641.59,"text":"問題是臺電虧損是老百姓害的嗎?當然不是!臺電的員工這麼辛苦,發生了財務的問題,重要是什麼?政府的能源政策的錯誤!所以院長,你應該去討論你的能源政策到底要怎麼調整,而不是將所有的責任愧疚於我們的人民!"},{"start":2646.776,"end":2668.086,"text":"謝謝楊委員、瓊英。接下來我們請登記第4位張委員嘉峻發言。主席"},{"start":2669.042,"end":2687.482,"text":"院長各位同仁大家早安那今天呢本席想要建議行政院一個非常重要的一個議題就是雲林一直是臺灣的糧倉不管是農漁畜牧都是臺灣第一為全臺灣所有的"},{"start":2687.942,"end":2690.324,"text":"因為雲林不管是水、電、土地乃至交通、醫療、教育等等"},{"start":2717.345,"end":2734.962,"text":"都已經準備好了首先最重要的就是土地雲林縣有超過1200公頃的台塘地可以說是單一地主不用擔心未來擴廠的問題包括私人用地的問題可以讓台積電穩定建構未來20、30年的基地發展"},{"start":2740.407,"end":2756.711,"text":"台灣目前能夠提供這麼優秀條件的縣市只有雲林縣。那包括雲林縣有充分的水電基礎建設的優勢。水資源方面尤其湖山水庫蓄水5347萬噸。及籍蘭和縣每年可以供給20億噸。"},{"start":2762.893,"end":2763.053,"text":"﹚發言委員："},{"start":2787.012,"end":2797.485,"text":"麥寮氣電共生1800MW,換而言之雲林縣能夠提供最穩定的水電基礎資源作為高科技產業。"},{"start":2799.526,"end":2826.901,"text":"穩定發展的後盾那包括說我們的交通位置優勢雲林縣位於臺灣西岸的中間位置與竹科南科的距離相當地勢平緩氣候佳亦有高鐵站目前雲林縣政府已經爭取到麥寮公用碼頭的興建在2027可以完工未來將增加這個海運的選項大幅減低運輸成本"},{"start":2827.561,"end":2847.37,"text":"所以為了爭取台積電來雲林我們準備好了請行政院可以落入考量希望能夠讓雲林縣脫胎換骨成為下世代高科技產業的基地也為我們的年輕朋友們年輕的鄉親們提供最佳的就業機會"},{"start":2852.68,"end":2857.945,"text":"謝謝張委員嘉峻的發言。接下來我們請登記第五位羅委員志強。"},{"start":2882.196,"end":2910.707,"text":"管碧玲要管碧玲下臺管碧玲你聽見了嗎?管碧玲要管碧玲下臺管碧玲你聽見了嗎?今夏海域的執法事件已經上綱到兩岸非常緊張的一個狀態在這整個事件當中竟然發生海巡單位沒有錄影的這件事情"},{"start":2912.366,"end":2935.067,"text":"海巡單位執法沒有錄影到底政府該負什麼樣的責任羅志強來說不公允管碧玲自己說最公平我們來看看在2016年的時候當時憲兵指揮部爆發了一個偵查事件沒有錄影的一個狀況"},{"start":2936.909,"end":2959.743,"text":"管碧玲痛批這是國軍憲兵史上最大烏龍該下臺負責的人要有自覺不可以拿基層當替死鬼這三句話我如數奉還管碧玲我要請管碧玲來回答今天"},{"start":2961.124,"end":2981.62,"text":"海巡執法沒有錄影是不是海巡署海洋委員會有史以來最大的烏龍海巡執法沒有錄影是不是管碧玲你說的該下台的人要有自覺你有沒有這個自覺"},{"start":2983.695,"end":3007.463,"text":"海巡執法沒有錄影我要問管碧玲你要推給基層的執法人員嗎我看到現在民進黨的整個漫天扣紅帽說今天在這件事情上發出意見的人是中共同路人你不站在海巡的弟兄背後我讚重告訴大家"},{"start":3008.786,"end":3037.847,"text":"我們國民黨羅志強就是站在海巡執法人員的後盾才要求你必須徹查沒有錄影這件事情任何的執法單位錄影不只是為了犯罪違規的修正而已錄影更是執法人員自保最重要的工具就像今天我們的海巡人員這麼辛苦在海上查緝不法"},{"start":3039.964,"end":3064.987,"text":"結果有理說不清我就要問為什麼會有理說不清不就是因為政府沒有貫徹今天海巡執法必須錄影這件事情嗎當你沒有做這件事情你就是限執法人員於不義還有臉出來扣紅帽管碧玲還是問你按照你2016的標準你要不要下台謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":3070.173,"end":3075.686,"text":"謝謝羅委員自強的發言。接下來我們請登記第6號徐委員與珍發言。"},{"start":3095.633,"end":3111.904,"text":"大會主席韓國瑜院長陳建仁院長以及各位官員還有各位委員同仁們大家好本席今天要討論的是擴大中科胡委員區讓台積電落腳雲林政府推動半導體學院精創臺灣方案"},{"start":3113.792,"end":3131.123,"text":"臺灣AI行動計畫2.0帶動半導體產業的發展。．望藉此帶動關聯產業以及上中下游供應鏈的發展與創新。透過科學園區的分散讓北中南都有基地。2023年底傳出臺積電有意落腳雲林縣嘉義縣"},{"start":3135.026,"end":3154.821,"text":"﹚"},{"start":3155.101,"end":3176.918,"text":"業已向經濟部提案進行報編中。護衛產業園區緊鄰中科護衛園區可銜接麥寮與斗六等既有的工業園區。且臨近高鐵雲林站週五分鐘的車程、中山高速公路還有78線東西巷快速道路以及台19線省道,非常具有交通的便利性。"},{"start":3177.859,"end":3204.616,"text":"可以提供高科技產業進駐,將其納入中科虎尾園區,也可以擴大科學園區用地以因應AI趨勢下的產能需求。與新政府積極地推動中科虎尾園區擴大計畫,以及九大產業園區的設置,爭取下一個世代的高科技產業能夠落腳雲林。除了台積電,也積極地爭取其他高科技產業前來設廠。"},{"start":3207.017,"end":3232.594,"text":"希望創造雲林縣的就業機會讓雲林縣能夠真正的成為農工上併進的大縣。今年行政院對外表示支持中科湖尾園區的擴建但是在辦理時程上卻未能符合雲林縣民的期待昨日本席與張家俊委員丁學忠委員召開雲林縣政府爭取中科湖尾園區擴大的協調會議"},{"start":3235.946,"end":3263.521,"text":"經濟部、臺堂公司、臺水公司、臺電公司跟國科會都表示會將積極的配合辦理。本席期盼中央與地方能夠攜手合作,掌握產業發展的契機,能夠真正的達到築潮影縫,讓台積電以及其他的高科技的產業能夠落腳雲林,增加雲林的就業機會,提升縣民的幸福感。謝謝。"},{"start":3269.52,"end":3295.627,"text":"謝謝許委員與真接下來我們請登記第7號葉委員元之發言院長好管碧玲要管碧玲下台管碧玲聽見了嗎其實我今天要講的主題不是這個但是這很重要所以我擺在這裡"},{"start":3296.892,"end":3325.041,"text":"我今天我要講的主題是有關於食安因為昨天晚上到很晚的時候行政院才把食安報告送到我們黨團那我抱著非常認真的心情在看這份報告但是我看得很認真他們寫得非常的隨便整本報告裡面只有傳達10個字應該是12個字馬英九好爛爛民進黨好棒棒就是這12個字"},{"start":3326.858,"end":3347.105,"text":"總共9頁的報告大概一半以上在吹噓民進黨做得多棒這我只有8個字送給這個報告叫做只會吹噓不知反省這就是我們為什麼食安問題一直出現的原因嘛因為沒有病識感所以不會找問題解決問題"},{"start":3349.139,"end":3370.633,"text":"這整份報告阿他從民國97年開始講起說民國97年開始裡面馬英九有做多爛多爛多爛欸那為什麼是從民國97年因為97年2008剛好就是馬英九上任嘛所以就從民國97年到現在還在馬維拉還在馬維拉那為什麼不從盤古開天開始講"},{"start":3375.043,"end":3384.338,"text":"為什麼不從陳水扁執政開始講所以還在搞政治鬥爭現在這個主題明明就是民進黨執政八年台灣食安問題總檢討還在馬唯拉"},{"start":3387.677,"end":3410.229,"text":"然後第二民進黨好棒因為馬英九都是系統性問題民進黨都只有個案問題所以民進黨好棒我就問請問蛋液洗產地不是系統性的問題嗎?農業部當時告訴業者說巴西的蛋進來以後變成蛋液他就實質轉型了所以可以把它變成台灣製"},{"start":3412.032,"end":3439.198,"text":"結果巴西旦可以洗產地這是個案還是系統性問題這就是系統性問題那為什麼整份報告裡面說民進黨只有個案沒有系統性問題然後再來在最後啊大家關心的西部特羅的案子只有一頁半啦九頁裡面吹噓完之後只有一頁半在講西部特羅裡面自己提到很清楚的提到農業部接下來要負責調查養殖跟屠宰階段"},{"start":3440.243,"end":3464.175,"text":"衛福部要調查販賣階段跟檢驗階段然後保齊總隊跟警察也要去調查實驗室的問題那就代表你中央有責任嘛你中央也是有職責所在要去處理食安嘛那為什麼一開始一直把問題全部推給台東市政府民進黨說叫陳建仁來不如叫盧秀燕來那你自己在這邊寫一大堆說你要做事情幹什麼"},{"start":3464.955,"end":3482.331,"text":"我今天是因為我沒有抽到質詢所以利用這個國是論壇發表意見這個非常重要希望說謝謝葉委員原汁的發言接下來我們請登記第8號吳委員春晨發言"},{"start":3499.888,"end":3522.319,"text":"主席、院長今天我要講的是教育部的問題昨天我跟黃珊珊委員召開學校共參法的公聽會有八個民間團體踴躍出席"},{"start":3526.24,"end":3552.358,"text":"還有負責食材的農業部負責營養的衛福部都派了很多位一起出席進行了兩個小時大家非常熱烈的來關注這個孩子共餐的問題但是呢教育部只派了一位沒有決策權的國教署的專門委員來出席公聽會"},{"start":3554.246,"end":3572.404,"text":"然後什麼都沒準備教育部是負責這個共產法的專責部會我們的孩子的營養午餐這個已經不曉得炒了多少年的日本在"},{"start":3574.497,"end":3601.142,"text":"1954年70年前就已經制定了這個法韓國在1981年也制定了這個法我們相較於日韓已經落伍的半個世紀到現在為什麼臺灣還沒辦法訂了一個統一的學校的營養午餐法而放任給各縣市造成這個的亂象"},{"start":3603.939,"end":3629.805,"text":"所以很難了解原因,歸咎於原因就是教育部不願意負責任,不願意扛起這個責任來,推諉的責任。另外最近有一個熱門的話題,就是有一對雪嶺的兄妹,看他的日程表每天睡不到6小時,這個小學生也引起外界的樂意。雪嶺的兒童吃不好睡不好,"},{"start":3631.206,"end":3651.467,"text":"本席認為教育部長要負起最大的責任而這一些這麼嚴重的問題一直持續委員也要幫忙解決問題但是部長覺得不痛不癢所以這個充耳不聞因為每次營養午餐只要出問題"},{"start":3654.383,"end":3654.543,"text":"以上"},{"start":3686.985,"end":3690.013,"text":"謝謝吳委員春晨的發言。接下來我們請登記第9號陳委員經微。"},{"start":3708.735,"end":3731.021,"text":"主席院長各位行政首長還有我立法院的同事以及各位媒體朋友大家早安今天我在這邊要討論一個臺灣位居世界倒數第一名而且非常嚴峻的問題也就是我們的生育率只剩下0.87低到不能再低這樣的臺灣"},{"start":3733.462,"end":3751.497,"text":"我們未來很快人口就會跌破2000萬變成一個人口稀少的荒島必須我們朝野一同來重視這樣子的問題很多人會說到是不是我們現在的大環境讓結婚的人不敢再生小孩"},{"start":3753.998,"end":3763.805,"text":"錯過去這20年其實已婚的人生育率是不降反升他們都很願意生但當然我們還要有更好的配套"},{"start":3765.097,"end":3793.758,"text":"給他們更好的環境來養育小孩但是我們的單身在生育年齡這個單身率呢卻快要到45%所以其實現在非常多的女性已經把婚育脫鉤了並不會覺得我一定要為了生小孩而結婚所以我們應該重視的是越來越多人並不想結婚但卻願意為台灣生養小孩"},{"start":3795.516,"end":3812.536,"text":"過去這2、3、10年,行政單位辦了無數場公聽會,大家可以一一去細數,希望可以進行人工生殖法的修法,以及代理孕母的修法,但這麼多公聽會有用嗎?"},{"start":3815.031,"end":3839.727,"text":"仍然持續的停滯倒退沒有誠意並沒有想要真正的去解決這樣子的問題始終沒有辦法提出可以呼應我們社會潮流還有願意生養小孩這些人民的回應本席身為第一線的婦產科醫師也是不孕症醫師同時升職醫學我看到無數比如說子宮有問題"},{"start":3841.667,"end":3864.782,"text":"或者是單身女生還有我們同婚專法通過以後無數的同志伴侶很希望為台灣孕育優秀的下一代但礙於法規他們沒有辦法甚至遠赴國外還有被一些無良的仲介欺騙欺騙了金錢時間等等感到非常的痛心"},{"start":3865.763,"end":3891.963,"text":"我們沒有辦法讓各種性傾向的家庭多元的家庭可以生養小孩不僅不符合憲法保障的平等權也不符合他們的家庭權也不符合他們的生育自主權因此本席未來要解決臺灣一再探底的生育率更要幫助大家守護憲法給予我們基本的權利前兩天"},{"start":3904.179,"end":3911.011,"text":"謝謝陳委員、金威。現在登記國是論壇發言的委員均已發言完畢。現在休息。謝謝。"},{"start":5625.18,"end":5646.357,"text":"我們請周秘書長報告出席人數。報告院會出席委員68人已足法定人數。我們現在開會本次會議議事日程因為程序委員會尚未組成一例,由秘書長編寧草案送院會處理。"},{"start":5649.008,"end":5653.151,"text":"在確認議事日程之前先處理朝野黨團協商結論。請議事人員宣讀。"},{"start":5656.926,"end":5674.42,"text":"議法院黨團協商結論時間113年2月22日星期四下午40地點紅樓302會議室決定事項各黨團同意2月23日星期五邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長列席提出有關民進黨政府執政8年台灣十二問題總監討專案報告並被質詢。質詢人數由國民黨黨團推敗7人"},{"start":5680.205,"end":5706.52,"text":"民進黨黨團推派7人,臺灣民眾黨黨團推派1人進行。每位委員尋答時間15分鐘。質詢順序依例授權議事處辦理。名單請於2月23日星期五上午8時30分前送交議事處會診。欲時適同放棄。主持人韓國瑜江啟臣。協商代表傅坤崎、洪孟凱、林思明、柯建民、吳思堯、莊瑞雄、黃國昌、黃珊珊、吳春成。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":5709.444,"end":5735.774,"text":"請問院會對以上朝野黨團協商結論有無異議。無異議通過。113年2月22日朝野黨團協商結論今決定如下。一、各黨團同意2月23日星期五邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長列席,提出有關民進黨政府執政八年。"},{"start":5737.469,"end":5742.413,"text":"臺灣食安問題總檢討專案報告並備質詢。質詢人數由國民黨黨團推派7位、民進黨黨團推派7位、臺灣民眾黨黨團推派1位進行。每位委員詢答時間15分鐘。質詢順序一例。"},{"start":5757.589,"end":5783.508,"text":"授權議事處辦理。明單於2月23日星期五上午8時30分前送議事處會診。欲時適同放棄。現在進行確認議事日程。報告委員會本次會議議事日程除以剛才通過之協商結論修正通過外其餘均照原編寧議程草案通過。"},{"start":5785.407,"end":5795.837,"text":"本次會議議事日程確定。現在進行報告事項請秘書長宣讀第一會期第一次會議議事錄。"},{"start":5798.57,"end":5806.594,"text":"宣讀立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議．事由．時間中華民國113年2月20日上午9時2分至9時31分、10時4分至11時59分、下午2時30分至5時2分．地點本院議場出席委員、吳委員、鐘憲等110人、請教委員、徒委員、全級等3人、內席官員、"},{"start":5824.147,"end":5838.325,"text":"行政院院長陳建仁等40人主席院長韓國瑜報告是這樣第一案宣讀本院第11屆院長副院長選舉會議事路決定確定第二案至第12案第14案"},{"start":5840.087,"end":5849.69,"text":"第3案均決定交互相關委員會審查。第13案決定定期舉行會議,邀請審計長列席報告審核經過,並備諮詢。第15案決定交黨團協商會議處理。第16案決定召案通過。第17案為聯事處所提出報告案。"},{"start":5865.234,"end":5881.279,"text":"本院院長報告之一本院組織法第14條之規定,臨選周岸來先生擔任本院秘書長,張玉榮先生擔任本院副秘書長,執行事項甲。行政院答覆部門14件,以本院委員執行部門1件。"},{"start":5882.74,"end":5896.755,"text":"討論事項第一案決議交互黨團協商並由臺灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商。行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告並答覆質詢決定下次會議繼續進行質詢其他事項一、"},{"start":5901.226,"end":5929.937,"text":"一百三年二月五日朝野黨團協商結論事項﹖二本次會議一四次討論事項﹖列入臺灣民眾黨黨團提議其余均照原本已議程草案通過宣讀完畢。報告院會針對第一會期第一次會議議事錄並無委員或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處。做以下之決定"},{"start":5930.851,"end":5955.074,"text":"第一會期第一次會議一事錄確定。請宣讀第二案。第二案本院委員李寬城等21人已廢止。膨脹邊區人員任用條例請審案。依次處理件擬請院會交司法及法制內政兩委員會審查。宣讀完畢。請問院會對第二案有無異議。沒有異議無異議通過。繼續。"},{"start":5956.826,"end":5981.261,"text":"第三案本院委員李坤誠的21任理廢止國民大會統一權刑事法精選案一事處一件您請用會交司法及法制委員會審查宣讀完畢五議通過第四案本院委員李坤誠的21任理廢止國民大會職權刑事法精選案一事處一件您請用會交司法及法制委員會審查宣讀完畢五議通過"},{"start":5982.389,"end":6006.636,"text":"第五案,委員李坤誠等21人禮廢止,國民大會組織法情審議案,議事處議屆理事院會教司法及法制委員會審查,宣讀完畢五議,通過第六案,委員李坤誠等21人禮廢止,訓政結束程序法情審議案,議事處議屆理事院會教司法及法制委員會審查,宣讀完畢五議,通過"},{"start":6007.628,"end":6034.645,"text":"第七案本議員李寬辰而選擇離廢止第一屆資深中央民意代表自願退職條例請審議案一時初一屆立行會交司法及法制委員會審查宣讀完畢五議議通過第八案本議員李寬辰而選擇離職詐欺組織犯罪與防治條例裁判請審議案一時初一屆立行會交司法及法制委員會審查宣讀完畢五議議通過"},{"start":6035.714,"end":6061.551,"text":"第9案本院委員亮偉相等18人離聚接避者保護法草案請水案一事處一件你請回交司法及法律委員會審查宣讀完畢五一通過第10案本院委員亮偉相等21人離聚法院組織法第63條之一條文修正草案請水案一事處一件你請回交司法及法律委員會審查宣讀完畢五一通過"},{"start":6062.779,"end":6089.531,"text":"第11案,本院委員廖偉祥等18人理據《中華民國刑法》第339條之4條維修正常人情審議案,議事處意見立行會交,司法及法監委員會審查,宣言完畢。第12案,本院委員廖偉祥等18人理據《食品安全衛生管理法》第24條及第25條條維修正常人情審議案,議事處意見立行會交,社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查,宣言完畢。"},{"start":6091.291,"end":6093.513,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6119.482,"end":6122.683,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6148.581,"end":6151.242,"text":"五、一、一、通過五、一、一、通過五、一、一、通過"},{"start":6178.837,"end":6205.823,"text":"第十九案本月委員蘇清泉的十七任理據用於教育及政務法第37條條維修政策維新水案,依次處意見歷經會教教育及文化社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查,宣讀完畢五一通過第20案本月委員蘇清泉的十八任理據食品安全衛生管理法第22條條維修政策維新水案,依次處意見歷經會教社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查,宣讀完畢"},{"start":6207.642,"end":6210.283,"text":"五一一通過五一一通過五一一通過"},{"start":6235.626,"end":6238.447,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6263.973,"end":6266.094,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6291.397,"end":6293.858,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6320.526,"end":6343.294,"text":"第29案,行政院海警水域遠洋漁業條例第14條之一、第36條之一及第47條條文修正草案案,依次處理屆年金會交經濟委員會審查,宣讀完畢。無異議,通過。第30案,行政院海警水域野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案案,依次處理屆年金會交經濟委員會審查,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6344.98,"end":6348.561,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6366.767,"end":6381.674,"text":"無異議．通過。第三十三案．行政院案件選議．中華民國臺灣政府．部分聽制．中華民國臺灣與斯洛爾瓦多共和國．及宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定施行文書案．一日初一屆臨近會將外交及國防經濟的兩委員會審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":6385.996,"end":6402.332,"text":"無異議．通過李三十四案習近平還經選議我國與宏都拉斯共和國間﹐自112年12月6日終止﹐中華民國臺灣與薩爾瓦多共和國及宏都拉斯共和國自由貿易協定案﹐一事出現,民情院會將外交及國防經濟兩院會審查﹐宣讀完畢"},{"start":6405.95,"end":6409.071,"text":"五、一、二、通過五、一、二、通過五、一、二、通過"},{"start":6438.799,"end":6450.203,"text":"李三十七案 行政院行情審議處德國臺北代表處與德國在臺協會行事司法互助協議案,一時出現離境或交交警國方司法企劃室兩委員會審查,宣傳完畢。"},{"start":6451.758,"end":6467.045,"text":"無異議通過。第三十方案,施政院案為依據國家金融安定基金設置起管理條例第五條第三條之規定,請本院各黨團推薦學者專家六位,擔任下屆國家金融安定基金管理委員會委員。議事處意見已請院會交黨團協商會議處理。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6471.38,"end":6490.2,"text":"無異議．通過。第39案．國防部行為該部所屬112年度油料採購經費需求申請動之地域北京及新南必斯以8,465萬8,000元月經行政院主席總署同意備案。議事處議員你請願會加目交及國防委員會。宣告完畢"},{"start":6491.715,"end":6518.784,"text":"五、一、一通過。第四十二,前經衛行為教育部體育署為奔發第十九屆杭州亞洲運動會等多項賽會及優運動選手及有功教練蔣麗晶、金貝布夫、董事一百十二年度中央政府總預算第二日預備金三億三千三百四十四萬二千元之印,自檢送第二日預備金董事數為經費別票。議事處議見例行會交財政教育及文化兩委員會。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6521.101,"end":6522.242,"text":"五一一通過"},{"start":6543.177,"end":6565.106,"text":"五一通過。第四十二案,銜金衛衛農業部農糧署未辦理受援農產品驗證輔導及安全管理與行銷計劃所需經費不敷,動之一百十二年度中央政府總預算第二日備金三億二千二零三十三萬八千元之印,資檢送第二日備金動之數額機關別表。議事書意見已請回交財政經濟欄位委員會。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6568.683,"end":6569.604,"text":"五一一通過五一一通過"},{"start":6593.686,"end":6608.013,"text":"第44案,行政院行為農業部部署農業發展基金,辦理穩定肥料及相關資材供需計劃所需經費不符,動視一百選年度中央政府總預算第二日為北京九億元之印,再解送第二日為北京動視數額經費別表,依視處理期年齡會交財政經濟欄位委員會,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6614.346,"end":6615.346,"text":"五、一、一、通過五、一、一、通過"},{"start":6642.335,"end":6665.484,"text":"第46案 行政委喊為外交部臨時事務局因應疫情後護照申請量激增,將速辦理護照申請流程所需經費不敷。前董事112年度中央政府總算第二日備金9億2450萬1千元支應一案,自解送第二日備金董支數人機關別收證表。一線出現內行會交財政公交及國防兩位委員會。宣讀完畢"},{"start":6667.389,"end":6690.928,"text":"無異議．通過。第47案 協政院韓文內政部辦理中州科技大學規劃為全民防衛訓練場地及警政署保安警察第二總隊機動中隊使用加過款及耐震強頻實施計劃經費付付、動資一百十二年度中央政府總預算第二日費金一億二千七百萬四千元之印資解送第二日費金動資數額機關別表。議事處議院聯邦財政內政兩委員會宣讀完畢。"},{"start":6696.752,"end":6697.493,"text":"五、一、一通過"},{"start":6727.953,"end":6728.954,"text":"五、一、通過"},{"start":6746.329,"end":6750.251,"text":"無異議）通過。第五十案．第八款規定之租稅減免優惠．"},{"start":6765.154,"end":6767.675,"text":"五一議通過五一議通過五一議通過"},{"start":6795.563,"end":6796.103,"text":"無異議通過"},{"start":6813.809,"end":6824.803,"text":"吳亦毅通過。第54案,其進行為中華民國112年12月6日修正公佈之《金融消費者保護法》第三條第11條之一及第19條條文,定次1302月1日施行。議事處協議請回交財政委員會。宣傳完畢。"},{"start":6831.721,"end":6832.582,"text":"無異議通過無異議通過"},{"start":6849.045,"end":6878.232,"text":"第56案,行政院行為中華民國111年6月22日制定公佈之《醫療事務預防及專業處理法》,定自113年1月1日施行,依施處理協議,請委員會加入社會福利及衛生環境委員會,宣讀完畢無異議通過第57案,行政院行為中華民國112年12月27日制定公佈之《最低工資法》,定自113年1月1日施行,依施處理協議,請委員會加入社會福利及衛生環境委員會,宣讀完畢"},{"start":6880.023,"end":6882.024,"text":"五、一、通過五、一、通過"},{"start":6899.144,"end":6918.987,"text":"第59案,司法院海外中華民國122年12月15日的終身公務制勞動事件法部分條文訂自113年1月8日施行,以釋出一線例行或交通司法及法律委員會。宣讀完畢。五一通過報告委員會第60案到第89案"},{"start":6921.176,"end":6946.742,"text":"請依序宣讀其中第61案、63案、68案、69案國民黨黨團提議改交審查第61案、63案、66案臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查宣讀後以上提案均改"},{"start":6947.799,"end":6953.408,"text":"交相關委員會審查其餘議案均照議事處意見通過請問院會有無異議沒有異議宣讀後通過請宣讀"},{"start":6961.431,"end":6962.331,"text":"無異議通過第九十案以下"},{"start":6991.297,"end":7001.575,"text":"請一併宣讀宣讀後除第95到99案同意展言審查期限外其餘個案均準以被查請宣讀"},{"start":7002.489,"end":7006.953,"text":"第9議案及第9問案為本院內政委員會函,為院會交付行政院當務委員會103年度中央政府組一算決議案等案,均已於年度預算執行期間。"},{"start":7026.613,"end":7052.864,"text":"第九三案為本院內政委會函為院會交付審查財政法人二月八事件紀念基金會等107年度決算書案等案均已於決算法第18條鎖定審議期限。第九四案是第106案為本院司法及法制交通社會福利及衛生環境經濟外交及國防內政財政委會函為院會交付審查相關行政命令均已於法定展演審查及審查期限。"},{"start":7053.684,"end":7073.493,"text":"第一領請案之第139案為本院內政社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告審查相關人民團體請願案。經審查結果均不成為議案案。第一領請案之第146案為行政院函送本院前程委員江華、郵遷委員玉蘭、溫情委員玉霞等所提臨時提案之嚴處信心。"},{"start":7074.793,"end":7100.2,"text":"第一次提案為本月人事出函,為本月第11屆全國部分區及僑區國外國民地部當選立法委員,民主進步黨及王衛原佔據,已於113年2月19日星期一上午10時到院宣誓就職。宣讀完畢。有一一通過報告院會,現在進行行政院院長。"},{"start":7101.448,"end":7126.786,"text":"提出有關民進黨政府執政8年臺灣食安問題總檢討專案報告並被質詢。請行政院陳院長報告。陳院長、各位委員先進。大家早安、大家好。"},{"start":7127.799,"end":7132.204,"text":"今日應貴院邀請就民進黨政府執政8年臺灣食安問題總檢討進行專案報告並被質詢。"},{"start":7137.932,"end":7160.758,"text":"民以食為天,食品安全是國人最關注的民生議題。臺灣過去發生多起重大的食安事件,民國97年三聚氰胺事件,100年塑化劑事件,102年化質澱粉事件,102至103年油瓶粉沖及違法添加同葉綠素等事件,"},{"start":7162.333,"end":7188.633,"text":"嚴重了衝擊國人的健康和消費者的信心甚至影響了經貿發展還有國家的形象為了要健全食安管理大院在102年6月及103年2月全文修訂食品安全衛生管理法下稱食安法但是103年仍然發生了黑心油事件104年也發生了茶葉及"},{"start":7189.852,"end":7216.598,"text":"發炒茶、驗出禁用農藥等事件。這些重大的食安事件可以稱為系統性的事件,會使得食品鏈的上下游都受到嚴重的影響,它的樣態包括了使用餐尾或者是低價偽劣的品來作為食品原料或是添加不法化學物質在食品供應鏈之中,其中因涉"},{"start":7218.264,"end":7242.327,"text":"參委或者是假冒判決有罪者多達15件因為涉及添加未經中央主管機關許可的添加物判決有罪者共計12件為了要重建食安的管理蔡總統在105年就任以後積極推動食安五房的政策將食安管理面"},{"start":7243.416,"end":7271.883,"text":"向來擴大到環境保護還有上游的農業安全生產下游的販售賣場和餐飲衛生安全等層面並且開發科學看資訊技術以及加強檢調參與打擊步伐。近年來食安事件已經從系統性逐漸轉為個案性的問題。食安五環政策是整合跨部會"},{"start":7273.453,"end":7301.793,"text":"食品安全管理的權責和資源結合產業自律政府管理及民間參與這三方面的力量以源頭管控重建生產管理加強查驗來落實上游的管理而以加重惡意黑心廠商責任及全民監督食安來修築食安的下游防火牆這五大面向環環相扣積極把"},{"start":7303.476,"end":7303.676,"text":"﹚第11屆第2會議"},{"start":7316.912,"end":7317.172,"text":"主席"},{"start":7336.283,"end":7341.185,"text":"一百零七年也通過了有機農業的促進法一百一十一年通過食農教育法此外"},{"start":7366.107,"end":7384.44,"text":"衛生福利部下稱衛福部也修訂還有調整農藥、動物用藥和食品添加物的法規標準導入了邊境人工的智慧系統來提升抽中不合格食品的比率。為了要建構食品溯源的體系"},{"start":7385.947,"end":7402.261,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":7402.917,"end":7429.653,"text":"噴印溯源管理以及臺灣茶強制性溯源登錄與標示。近8年來有積極友善耕作的面積已經提高了2.5倍。產銷履歷農產品驗證的面積也提高了5倍。交易部更推動了學校午餐食材採用國產可溯源農產品3張EQ食材的覆蓋率高達了98%。"},{"start":7431.772,"end":7454.078,"text":"大力提升了學童午餐的品質及安全。在加強稽查檢驗方面,除了大幅提高農產品及食品的抽驗件數,加強第三方驗證的把關之外,同時運用食品雲、大數據及實驗室檢驗量能來提升查驗的頻率。"},{"start":7455.006,"end":7483.239,"text":"自108年起農業部創新設置農藥質樸快篩站每年檢驗2萬件田間農作物採樣快檢合格以後才上市有效在事前就及時攔阻不合格的產品上市。衛福部從106年到112年透過了食安五房、前瞻基礎建設等計畫補助各地方政府"},{"start":7483.679,"end":7501.144,"text":"充實人力、車輛、儀器、實驗室、預算等資源來提升稽查和檢驗的量能總均會到達26億元有效提升了地方政府健全食安的基礎建設。106到112年針對前端農產品、農漁畜產品抽驗的件數高達"},{"start":7510.407,"end":7510.647,"text":"﹚發言委員："},{"start":7532.749,"end":7546.837,"text":"將分譜尼列為雞蛋常態的檢測項目。107年發生業者回收不良蛋品重製業蛋的販售。違規產品就迅速下架而且立刻銷毀。112年進口業蛋原產地標示有爭議的7家業者也在檢調調查偵辦當中。"},{"start":7555.754,"end":7584.033,"text":"相關產品並未流入市場。政府在事件發生當時就即刻啟動了追溯的機制短時間就排除風險確保市售產品安全無疑顯示我國的食安管理體系已有顯著的進步。國際貿易是臺灣持續發展的基礎基於國家整體經濟的利益在食安優先符合科學證據"},{"start":7585.183,"end":7609.102,"text":"還有符合國際標準的前提下政府多次開放食品的挑戰特別是110年開放了含萊克多巴胺的美豬進口以及111年調整日本福島五線食品輸入的管制政府除了加強社會溝通也制定了完善的配套措施截至目前110至112年進口豬肉"},{"start":7612.574,"end":7613.434,"text":"去年由於全球流行禽流感"},{"start":7642.3,"end":7670.552,"text":"國內的雞蛋供應不足,雞蛋進口專案緩解了雞蛋危機所衍生的問題。在當時有雞蛋錯標有效日期以及液氮產品原產地標示爭議的事件政府邀請各部會延長雞蛋有效日期並在今年1月預告將殼氮輸入業者納入為因建立食品追溯追蹤系統的食品業者"},{"start":7672.02,"end":7699.669,"text":"規範對象來提升管理的強度。近8年來已經顯著降低系統性的食安事件,雖然偶爾會發生不法事情,但是也是透過了跨部會和地方政府充分的合作,已經提升了整體應變處理食安的效率,降低了影響的層面。針對台中市政府抽驗台塘國產梅花肉片檢出西部特羅的事件,"},{"start":7700.239,"end":7727.568,"text":"政府在這期間已經不斷釐清並且向民眾說明節至2月21日農業部已經檢驗上市前的樣品793件及衛福部檢視上市後的樣品92件除了台中市單一核檢體檢出西部特羅其餘的都檢驗未檢出乙型受體數"},{"start":7728.962,"end":7753.859,"text":"初步排除了國內豬肉供應鏈受到隱形受體數的污染風險本案研判屬於單一檢體問題而非系統性事件為了讓民眾放心政府以嚴謹的態度審慎處理已經責請衛福部跟農業部邀集相關的學者專家進行行政調查盤點各階段操作可能的污染風險"},{"start":7755.56,"end":7783.986,"text":"有關西部特羅流向的查核。財政部提供了111年到113年2月6日西部特羅進口業者一共有4家共計進口了789毫克。衛福部在113年2月7日接獲財政部提供業者的名單以後就前往查核。這4家進口西部特羅的業者是說明產品用途是"},{"start":7784.505,"end":7810.959,"text":"指作為實驗室的標準品銷售下游一共有12家的地方政府衛生局以及12家的民間檢驗機構此外針對後市場的豬肉的產品的乙型受體數的抽檢我們也會從每年2000件來提升到4000件確保市售豬肉符合安全標準在農業界、食品業界"},{"start":7811.775,"end":7826.953,"text":"中央政府、國會、地方政府、學員界、民間團體各方的努力之下這8年來臺灣已經逐漸走出三聚氰胺、塑化劑、毒澱粉、黑心、油瓶等系統性食安事件的陰霾。國內與國際間已從實對"},{"start":7831.991,"end":7843.348,"text":"臺灣食品安全的信心很多的聯手食品企業包括小籠包跟珍珠奶茶走出臺灣在世界各地管受喜愛跟信賴就是最好的例證"},{"start":7844.386,"end":7872.459,"text":"食品安全是不分黨派也是全民共同關心的民生議題蔡政府推動食安五房政策將業者實名制溯源納管定定符合國際貿易的標準跟規範輔導業者遵守法律規範加強稽查和檢驗保障和鼓勵消費者檢舉資料公開和資訊共享大大提升了臺灣食安的水準國人"},{"start":7873.442,"end":7898.36,"text":"更能夠安心放心更相信臺灣優質的農產品和食品而食安的維護及提升是朝野共同的目標也需要全民來共同攜手努力讓我們彼此努力來使得臺灣的食安能夠更上層樓特別感謝各位委員先進的支持也祝大家平安健康謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":7900.857,"end":7918.754,"text":"謝謝陳院長們的報告。報告用會,現在進行委員質詢。每位委員詢答時間不得超過15分鐘。輪到質詢的委員如果不在場,視同放棄。第一位,請台灣民眾黨委員陳委員招致質詢。"},{"start":7943.359,"end":7959.927,"text":"有請院長請陳院長備詢謝謝您剛剛的食安專題報告我現在請問院長您對落實源頭管理確保國人食安您給自己打幾分?謝謝"},{"start":7963.372,"end":7990.677,"text":"從2016年之前跟2016年以後我們來做一個比較我剛才講過我看你系統性的這個食安問題已經大幅的減少大部分都是個案的問題所以我覺得這個食安問題之所以會這樣好不是只有中央政府的努力包括了地方政府、學界、民間、業界都有所以我整體來看相對於亞洲附近的國家我覺得台灣的食安是不錯的"},{"start":7991.967,"end":8009.865,"text":"謝謝院長。 院長我下面想請教您一個邏輯問題。針對開放美國萊豬進口以下說法何者正確?當政府沒有檢出萊克多巴胺的時候是不是就等於飼養的時候沒有使用萊克多巴胺?"},{"start":8010.751,"end":8021,"text":"或者是沒有檢出萊克多巴胺並無法得出飼養時沒有使用萊克多巴胺的結論。請院長作答。如果政府開放"},{"start":8022.352,"end":8023.833,"text":"議長的答案是上面還是下面?"},{"start":8049.147,"end":8073.583,"text":"是未檢出就等於沒有使用呢?還是不能有這樣的結論?在這裡的話,未檢出我們只能夠講說說沒有檢出。沒有檢出對不對?就是沒有檢出。好,院長沒有檢出不代表沒有使用才是正確的。但是委員,我們現在用萊克多巴胺的檢驗是用HPOC。HPOC是一個相當精準的檢驗的方法。"},{"start":8075.764,"end":8097.62,"text":"陳吉仲前部長說萊克多巴胺它的半衰期短代謝非常快24小時內會代謝掉八成根據我的精算大概只剩2%那農民只要在兩天前停藥事實上殘留量會大幅的衰減院長這個表示說未減出不代表未使用你同意嗎"},{"start":8098.58,"end":8125.982,"text":"我同意但是委員我要講的就是說您是藥學的專家所以我不敢跟你拔門弄斧但是呢但是我們現在各國都是用進口豬肉來做檢驗這也是唯一的標準也是國際標準謝謝院長謝謝院長好去年10月食藥署副署長說這幾年都沒有來豬進口院長如果我們剛剛有這樣的一個小共識沒有檢出未必代表沒有使用的話"},{"start":8127.023,"end":8150.467,"text":"那麼政府沒有減租,需要屬副總可不可以說都沒有來租進口?您同意這樣的說法嗎?實際上各國進口的標準都是按照進口豬肉減租,看看有沒有標準。當然您講的是對,也許它有用,但是進口的貨品,國際標準就是要進口豬肉的檢驗。其實我強調的是希望官員能夠把話講清楚。沒有減租"},{"start":8151.127,"end":8154.569,"text":"但是實際上國際標準不是這樣啦是按照進口豬肉來做檢驗那檢驗沒有萊克多巴胺就準進口這是國際標準"},{"start":8171.758,"end":8192.675,"text":"委員長我要請教在政府的公務出國報告資訊網的網站上我查到了八件公務員到美國進行肉品的這個查核報告是有關美牛的因為我們知道自從開放進口後政府要定期的查核但是但是2021年當政府要開放美豬來台時明明承諾要到美國查場"},{"start":8194.124,"end":8205.523,"text":"而且要通過的業者才能夠輸到臺灣可是我看了公務出國報告資訊網為什麼到目前為止一件美豬茶場案的報告都沒有目前掛零"},{"start":8207.182,"end":8233.211,"text":"院長到底美豬茶廠報告是機密嗎?還是有什麼不可告人的處呢?沒有,這個我想剛才衛務部部長說是有是茶廠,但是為什麼掛鈴我請他說明。部長,掛鈴?剛剛委員講的有一個地方不太正確啦。院長,部長我就請你說為什麼美豬茶廠是掛鈴?美牛茶廠有八件,美豬茶廠已經兩三年為什麼是掛鈴?"},{"start":8234.071,"end":8259.886,"text":"我們有去查了,那也許...好,那這樣是不是這樣子,這件事部長可不可以會後,就是我相信你們有報告,那你是不是會後馬上請將官機關上傳。我覺得國人有權利去了解這個檢查報告的內容,好嗎?好,委員查場很重要啦,但是進口的每一批豬肉都要檢查更重要。報告是公訂文書,我們了解,好。"},{"start":8261.567,"end":8289.081,"text":"院長,關於美國豬肉進口,食藥署是前後不同調的。2014年江副署長說,實地查核的範圍包括牧場、屠宰場及官方的衛生安全管制機制。透過實地查場,食藥署還可以直接指定只有合格牧場生產肉品才准進來。但是去年10月副署長林金富說,所謂的查場是系統性的查核,是雙方研議出幾家賞賬名單,再由我方去查核。"},{"start":8289.981,"end":8310.698,"text":"言下之意說並不是主場查核請稍後。2021年蘇貞昌院長為了推動開放美豬進口也在立法院承諾會赴美茶場通過的才可以進口也就是主場查驗精神請問院長您對於食藥署前後不同調您的看法是如何?"},{"start":8311.335,"end":8330.698,"text":"我想可能在國際的標準上在這9年間確實是有一些改變也說不定但是我們是最重要我還是在強調的是說在目前有一段時間委員我跟你講一下這個2023年面臨到COVID-19我們茶廠實際上也是有一些困難我承認"},{"start":8340.503,"end":8346.698,"text":"院長對於到底要實地主場查核還是所謂的系統性抽樣查核,您的想法呢?"},{"start":8347.815,"end":8372.513,"text":"應該是系統性查核因為不可能主場查核啦這個太負責任說法因為這個在打臉江玉敏也打臉蘇貞昌院長在立法院的承諾所以我說這是規定可能在幾年內都有些改變實要署說10年未檢出瘦肉精在下面103年到122年衛生單位於抽驗豬肉檢驗已行瘦體數也就是瘦肉精"},{"start":8373.594,"end":8397.898,"text":"總共19300件,結果均未檢出。這是他2月發的新聞稿。這個10年未檢出,院長您相信這個說法嗎?我當然相信。你相信這個說法?我可能要給你一些資料,你可能被騙了。好,我們先來看看。2015年、2018年農委會,這近10年內喔。剛才講的是進口。前端飼養。對。"},{"start":8401.455,"end":8423.108,"text":"獲得違法使用的、查獲違法使用瘦肉精而且開罰兩案,至少開罰兩案。這是第一個。分別有查出它的量、它的內容包括沙丁、鵪鶉跟萊特多巴胺都是禁用的兩個成分。這個是農委會前端的部分。"},{"start":8424.827,"end":8431.469,"text":"你剛剛說你相信食藥署10年無查出的這個說法那個是進口豬肉好下一張"},{"start":8433.243,"end":8458.648,"text":"事實上瘦肉精近5年都有違法使用。院長根據食藥署自己的國際期刊Journal of FDA同仁所投書的報告2011年到2015年抽驗1487份續產品檢測瘦肉精有34件不合格有24件為國內產品這邊張市長英文寫的這是第一個另外我要告訴院長監察院在2011年的時候"},{"start":8460.948,"end":8470.476,"text":"因為防檢局去檢測到非常高比率的違法使用瘦肉精所以他糾正了農委會抽驗頻度過低顯為善盡把關職責院長"},{"start":8476.889,"end":8477.709,"text":"現在我們在來討論銷售專跟這個後市場的這個問題"},{"start":8499.378,"end":8519.88,"text":"實要署說10年來未檢出,你覺得這個說法正確嗎?該這樣講嗎?我要看一下這個實要署的資料實要署的研究報告自己刊登在期刊國際期刊委員他這個資料是commercial livestock product就是說所有商業的續產品"},{"start":8521.201,"end":8526.063,"text":"我想這件事太離譜了就是說有這些資料還10年未檢出這個非常粗糙的一個說法院長這個是假訊息啊這是官方的假訊息啊10年未檢出"},{"start":8543.617,"end":8545.799,"text":"我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?我認為署長部長還是誰要負責呢?"},{"start":8572.881,"end":8591.948,"text":"院長您看到這個號碼追溯號碼就是這次疑似西部特羅肉片的這個瘦肉精使用事件這個是有溯源資料我想知道衛福部到現在有沒有掌握這一批這一批的流向產品總量賣出的數量跟回收的數量有沒有這個數字"},{"start":8593.449,"end":8610.183,"text":"這個目前都已經有收集下來,都下架了。但是我們還沒有看到這個報告數字。已經檢驗了都沒有問題,都沒有含史普特羅。我要談的是,你的產品總量,如果你有數字非常好,趕快讓國人知道,如果"},{"start":8611.314,"end":8626.917,"text":"你沒有數字,那就是有點...同一批要九十幾件,大概都沒有好,好,那我要告訴我要告訴部長或院長,如果即便你有產品總量,我認為那是不正確的,為什麼呢?"},{"start":8628.083,"end":8653.533,"text":"一隻豬屠宰之後只會吃到肉品嗎?只賣出肉品嗎?人民只吃到肉品嗎?內臟賣不賣?肝臟賣不賣?你追溯的東西剛剛報告增加報告有幾千件是限制肉品為什麼我會這樣說呢?為什麼我會這樣說呢?好,院長請你先看這一張投影片的兩張照片左邊是台湯的梅花肉片"},{"start":8654.861,"end":8665.801,"text":"右邊是台堂的豬肝片,豬肝的包裝。他們都宣稱這一盒經得其考驗。請問院長你有看出這兩張照片有什麼不同嗎?"},{"start":8669.341,"end":8691.629,"text":"一個是豬肝一個是豬肉我來告訴院長答案因為我圈起來了這個肉片的部分它有溯源標章有個QR Code可以去掃有提供產銷履歷很好但是但是請看豬肝的部分空空的豬肝沒有溯源徽章沒有產銷履歷"},{"start":8693.322,"end":8720.002,"text":"沒有辦法溯源這個是不是每一個城牆事務院長主觀上什麼都沒有辦法溯源所以這次的產品總量我覺得有問題因為你沒有辦法溯源那國人是吃內臟的你同意國人是吃內臟的委員你是藥學的專家我剛才講過一群豬用同樣的飼料去餵養然後如果有瘦肉精在裡面"},{"start":8720.682,"end":8727.748,"text":"議員長,一隻豬假設吃下了瘦肉精,它只會停留在肉片嗎?當然不會嘛。但是所有的肉片,所有的肉片都沒有喔。哪一個地方含量比較高?假設要採檢時間喔。反正,議員長"},{"start":8749.925,"end":8773.7,"text":"豬肝沒有辦法溯源,內臟沒有辦法溯源,這是個敘事吧?我們這個豬肝的溯源的部分,我請...我這邊說明一下齁,我們國內的豬隻的溯源系統是第一個是採資源性的,那台湯的豬隻是有溯源的。我了解,這是資源性,它現在還不是強制性的齁,當然將來可以考慮,但是我要告訴現在是有偏差的。肉片有溯源,極致,但是內臟沒有。"},{"start":8776.857,"end":8792.245,"text":"未來可以考慮啦,未來可以考慮。這兩張等一下再讓院長來,交給院長來去處理。現在齁,台中市查出來的是肉片,不是說他內臟。內臟已經成了食安漏洞了。看看齁。"},{"start":8799.206,"end":8803.987,"text":"我們國家允許的殘留量含量你看肝臟腎臟跟肌肉是不一樣的肝臟是允許有4倍高"},{"start":8819.051,"end":8825.158,"text":"你我的醫學背景都了解。我覺得建議很好啦。未來內臟也要做檢查啦。如果今天不幸換成西部陀螺更油,這個數字不會只有4倍欸。"},{"start":8838.689,"end":8856.048,"text":"這是漏洞欸!這是西部特羅檢驗出來很低啊!我們要做很多預防,院長可不可以有個時程?因為本席認為內臟目前是食安的漏洞,那可不可能有一個時程去研議這件事情?怎麼樣?"},{"start":8882.006,"end":8899.219,"text":"謝謝陳委員遭致的質詢本席善意提醒一下衛福部薛部長你今天不是藐視國會是你講話國會聽不見你要不要喝一口熱茶帶個熱茶上台好不好我說你今天被詢的話麻煩帶個熱茶沒關係的我們都能理解好不好立法院很有人情味好謝謝"},{"start":8901.86,"end":8906.005,"text":"接下來我們請第二位執行委員李維園、崑禎時間15分鐘有請我們陳院長"},{"start":8928.554,"end":8953.606,"text":"委員恭喜你這個當選。謝謝,謝謝院長。院長今天是這個2月23號,那院長終於可以到立法院來做實案的專案報告了。那其實如果在2月19號朝野的協商的時候,民眾黨的黨團總召願意簽下那個朝野協商,老實說啊,院長你就可以提早三天,"},{"start":8954.486,"end":8970.088,"text":"二月二十號開議當天你就可以來做時安報告了對不對確實還好這三天我們都是持續的在把關這個時安本來是說二十號開議當天你就可以來做時安報告了但是有人不簽這個朝野協商嘛"},{"start":8970.709,"end":8971.09,"text":"民眾也更放心"},{"start":8991.81,"end":9018.552,"text":"對啊,因為民眾希望說能夠做實案報告,所以當然是希望你20號開業當天就來嘛,對不對?是。好,那雖然晚了三天齁,這個民眾還是想知道一下說,那到底在馬英九執政的時候跟蔡英文執政的時候,這實案到底有什麼不一樣?我剛剛聽了一下這個院長的報告齁,我先針對瘦肉計的部分來請教一下院長啦齁。在這個馬英九執政的時期齁,我查到了資料啦齁,我查到資料說有這個"},{"start":9020.454,"end":9040.152,"text":"違規使用售後金有抓到三個豬農使用這我查到資料那或許更多也不一定但是在蔡英文執政的時期有沒有查出有使用售後金的資料本地的豬農尤其是台湯我剛剛看到這個上一位陳委員他的資料他的資料是在2011到2015我們民進黨是2016才執政"},{"start":9043.875,"end":9057.702,"text":"所以那用的資料是在馬英九執政時期的資料啊那我請教一下在蔡英文執政這8年期間有沒有本地的豬農或是說台糖"},{"start":9058.924,"end":9081.733,"text":"這次的苦主有使用違規使用瘦肉精的台堂市沒有使用瘦肉精這是很確定的一件事情那在這一個豬農使用的狀況我請我們部長來補充說一下我想第一個說明就是近十年來第一個部分是近十年來本身在103、104的部分有兩件那106有兩件"},{"start":9083.234,"end":9102.626,"text":"那都是在那個租場端的時候就及時攔阻下來然後就那個100年上個10年就蠻多了大概有1000多件那包括就是有講執政前有執政後嘛對執政對那10年前是有執政時期對就是在97年特別是在97年那一年大概有800多件"},{"start":9103.146,"end":9121.859,"text":"那後來又降了大概到100多件左右那事實上整個的我們國內的豬廠我們禁用瘦肉精是一個政策所以這個政策是在那個情況之下我們一直希望說我們國內的豬隻的產業是不用瘦肉精的所以後來就開始逐漸的下降那從我們106年以後就沒有檢出"},{"start":9125.845,"end":9126.785,"text":"921比1921比1院長你知道這是什麼數字嗎?"},{"start":9153.995,"end":9175.401,"text":"921是這個885件全國豬肉的樣品加上台塘自己同批次的這個肉品的檢驗結果出來都是沒有檢驗到瘦肉精沒有含瘦肉精對沒有含西部特羅當然沒有那所以你看嘛包含衛福部、農業部、台塘自行檢驗到目前為止921件沒有問題"},{"start":9177.842,"end":9193.311,"text":"只有一件有問題那一件就是台中市政府檢查出來嘛對不對是那所以我們今天焦點就在於說那這一件天選之肉這一包肉到底是怎麼出來的這等一下我們就是要問就是說那因為我剛有聽到這個院長在講"},{"start":9196.192,"end":9217.085,"text":"行政院研判說這是屬於單一的檢體問題而非系統性的事件就這個單一檢體的問題能不能請院長或是部長再說明清楚一下單一檢體到底出現什麼問題單一檢體他們收到這個到市場去採購以後呢他拿回來就檢驗那檢驗的結果他"},{"start":9219.307,"end":9243.448,"text":"根據台中市的講法是有22次的檢驗,因為他檢驗不穩定。就檢驗那一塊肉嘛。對,就檢驗那一塊肉,對對對。那所以台中市政府在檢驗那一塊肉之外有沒有檢查同梯次的其他的肉,有沒有?沒有。沒有,那所以當時候他跟你們衛福部通知的時候說有檢查出希伏特羅了,那你們有沒有建議他們說同梯次的豬肉也去做檢查?"},{"start":9249.671,"end":9271.565,"text":"市場去採樣的時候,同時有找出另外一個,但是他不是統一批號,那是小牌,豬小牌肉,那個沒有檢出。所以他在那個福利站找了兩包,一包就是這一個,另外一包是一個小牌,沒有檢出。"},{"start":9272.746,"end":9294.112,"text":"我這邊可以稍微比較清楚的補充一下就是在2月2號整個的臺東市我們發布新聞稿以後我們當天下午就成立了一個專案小組我們馬上去找同一批的肉品因為他有溯源碼我們找同一批的肉品在2月3號的時候我們找到了9總共找到了9包那9包裡面我們分送了就是由我們續展會去檢驗的4包然後"},{"start":9296.573,"end":9324.333,"text":"那個二月部檢驗的兩包那另外我們有SGS去檢驗所以在2月4號的時候我們大概初步去認定整個同一批同品項的這個豬肉並沒有所謂的西部特羅的這個殘留的一個汙染所以我們完了以後我們繼續去找這個因為已經下架了所以我們陸陸續續從下架的去找同樣的一個批號那後續在持續的檢驗也都沒有"},{"start":9324.893,"end":9328.636,"text":"委員你是講的對了其實在我們一般的檢驗過程當中如果我們發現有哪一個弱品尤其它的含量很低很低這個時候是應該"},{"start":9347.01,"end":9347.07,"text":"那一塊肉。"},{"start":9367.085,"end":9389.872,"text":"我再請教一下現在就是說有查出來了就是說有4家業者有進口西部特羅那這個有12家衛生局跟12家的民間檢驗的機構那請問一下這12家的衛生局是不是含台中市政府當然含台中市政府那現在就是要查出來就是說你們除了做行政調查之外有沒有做司法的調查"},{"start":9391.193,"end":9416.736,"text":"我們是沒有進入司法的調查最主要的情況是第一個這一個檢驗出來的濃度是相對的低做司法調查的時候我們通常在食品事件上就擔心所謂的千面人事件如果千面人事件在任何的食品當中檢驗出來不會有那麼低的濃度那麼低的濃度有另外一種除了"},{"start":9417.557,"end":9432.214,"text":"我們剛才講到的污染可能性之外還有一種是檢驗本身的不準度啦所以這就是為什麼我們衛福部也好農業部也好我們的專家學者是從檢驗檢體的檢驗的程序上來做調查"},{"start":9434.316,"end":9446.427,"text":"行政調查歸行政調查但是檢調司法調查我認為要同步來進行因為我認為到最後不要讓這個案子成為懸案那我現在就是說我自己歸納就是現在包含我們行政部門或是說民間他們所提出來的"},{"start":9454.124,"end":9455.305,"text":"那對於柯文哲主席的說法,你們的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":9483.646,"end":9504.673,"text":"我想這只是其中之一的可能性那因為在這個溯源的情形不是很容易的因為他實際上採取檢體到公布的時間已經經過很長的一段時間而且這個實驗室本身並不像我們的實驗室有沒有可能性當然是有這種可能性有沒有要去做調查"},{"start":9505.493,"end":9533.38,"text":"那這個調查就需要學者專家來調查但是我剛才要跟委員強調的就是因為時隔相當長的時間而這個實驗室不像我們病毒的P3實驗室都有攝影啊都有很多的記錄嘛那在這樣的一個檢驗的實驗室裡面如果沒有這樣的記錄的話那是不容易查出那這是後續SOP的問題是是是這是後續的問題那就是說我舉例就是說好柯文哲說有可能"},{"start":9533.9,"end":9547.516,"text":"實驗室污染那第二個可能性呢就是你剛也有提到的簽名人這不是只有你提到這個嘉義縣養豬協會林市長林志達說這有可能是一個簽名人事件那有沒有朝這方面去查的這個可能性"},{"start":9548.387,"end":9573.793,"text":"在當時呢我們也瞭解了這一個實驗室呢他去市場採購的時候那個錄影帶有留下來那是沒有發現有任何異常的這個情況那現在就是說現在我認為啦行政調查當然你們昨天也開了會這衛福部農業部接下來開了會但是司法調查這部分我覺得還是要進行部長有話要說"},{"start":9575.855,"end":9585.887,"text":"跟委員說明台中地檢署有進行了解中哪一部分可能涉及刑責的部分涉及刑責的部分"},{"start":9587.059,"end":9613.838,"text":"這是哪一個範疇?因為有民眾檢舉,那我們會根據外界的一些看法來做一個進一步的了解。因為大家都認為說這個案子很重要,因為過年前發生了嘛,那我也不希望說用到最後後來就是沒什麼事情了,那變成一個懸案。那我認為行政司法都要去調查。那因為這件事情,我問一下部長,農委部長,豬肉有沒有受到影響?"},{"start":9614.959,"end":9643.337,"text":"價格有沒有受到影響?我想豬肉如果說我們從過年2月2號到過年前這段時間齁它的平均的豬肉的單價是90塊8它比去年農曆同樣的時段的時候是還比較高所以看起來我想我們國人對於我們國產豬肉的信心還是在的不會沒有因為這樣的一個事件而受到一些衝擊大家對台糖還是有信心就對了對台糖還是有信心對台糖有信心好但是對台糖有信心呢台糖是苦主啊"},{"start":9644.278,"end":9659.458,"text":"台湯是苦主。請問一下,台湯在這次的這個瘦肉精事件、西部特勒事件當中,他的損失有多少?直接的損失跟間接的損失有多少?台湯部長"},{"start":9660.48,"end":9676.131,"text":"剛剛委員報告齁那臺黨初步有那個統計一下那直接的損失是1700多萬那間接的損失是這個3000多萬所以他總共的這樣的損失大概是5200萬"},{"start":9677.523,"end":9699.319,"text":"就是到目前為止,時間損失就是因為下架,下架然後也不能賣。還有回收,還有人家退貨的,還有去花這些檢驗的費用,還有相關的人力的支出等等。這個部分大概是1700萬。你說間接損失呢?間接的3000多萬,是。它總共的初步的評估大概會損失5200萬。"},{"start":9701.3,"end":9714.813,"text":"好那我請教一下因為如果連盧秀燕她都說真相大白這是個案那請問一下台湯這些JP你們預防性下降這些豬肉大概沒辦法出了吧"},{"start":9716.405,"end":9716.906,"text":"五千兩百萬請問一下"},{"start":9744.907,"end":9755.366,"text":"那台堂去向誰求償啊?如果真的像盧秀恩講的啊,真相大白啦,這是個案啊,那我們這個行政部門查到目前為止921比1嘛。"},{"start":9757.23,"end":9784.802,"text":"那可見是個案的問題那我就問說好那台糖那些肉品何時才可以在市場然後台糖要去跟誰求償阿是所以我想台糖在這個地方是確實受到非常多的一個委屈啦那他也希望能夠盡速釐清那第二個讓台糖的盛運能夠恢復台糖的肉可以再去上架這個是台糖非常需要的對阿所以台糖就是被打了也不敢吭聲吧"},{"start":9787.458,"end":9804.343,"text":"明明盧修緣都講了這是個案真相大白了他還是沒有辦法比如說損失了5000多萬然後肉也不能再重新再上架然後大家對於台糖雖然有信心但是買的時候還是稍微疑慮了一下我認為台糖該求償的時候還是在求償"},{"start":9804.983,"end":9833.804,"text":"好那最後30秒請教一下院長如果重來一次會給地方政府隨便人建議SOP會做調整嗎好謝謝我想很重要的就是說這一個臺中市政府的檢驗室他面對這個很低劑量的這個檢出的時候呢他應該要把他的SOP做一個很好的修正舉一個例子比如說應該要趕快去找同一批的豬肉來檢查如果地方政府SOP沒辦法建立那我們中央"},{"start":9839.994,"end":9840.434,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳建倫院長麻煩請陳院長備詢"},{"start":9874.247,"end":9888.595,"text":"委員長好國人都關心食安這是為什麼本立法院要求您來率相關部會同仁來做食安專報應該的這一次我們強調瘦肉精的食安事件從過年前到現在"},{"start":9890.058,"end":9904.705,"text":"讓事件走偏的是中央的衛福部市長王必勝在第一時間地方政府驗出問題就是希望解決問題找出問題釐清原因但為什麼會看到說中央跟地方一時間不同步"},{"start":9905.245,"end":9925.898,"text":"也因此剛剛我先順著李昆城委員剛剛的一個質詢你也講到未來的事件本席也希望是說經過這次之後未來的事件你有提到地方政府如果說驗到太低的劑量的時候應該要再做同批次的一個檢驗對不對對好低是多低標準是什麼"},{"start":9926.628,"end":9933.638,"text":"我想這個會按照不同的說話金的因為現在的食安如果說檢驗食品發生異狀的話通報的機制為何?"},{"start":9937.945,"end":9967.525,"text":"現在的情形如果說我們檢驗出來有這個低劑量的這個情況下那他的地方政府呢當然就需要來通報但是我剛才講到當很低劑量的時候很可能是檢驗的我們現在是不是只有一個標準就是合格或不合格嗎對嘛就是檢出或不檢出現在的標準但是實驗室有一個實驗室的檢出標準那實驗室的檢出標準是0.001ppm那因為他很接近了我講一下"},{"start":9967.925,"end":9968.605,"text":"但是因為實驗的我講一下實驗他有一個"},{"start":9987.193,"end":9994.455,"text":"我想這一些部分中央要好說地方的實驗人員都非常清楚跟了解因為我們都相信地方政府不管是哪一個政府的實驗人員都是專業的"},{"start":10012.259,"end":10026.676,"text":"以專業考量跟專業對話但目前的通報機制就是如果說是中央指派的專案有登載系統可以回報檢驗結果但是如果是地方的專案稽查的話結果是自由自行保留即可而且"},{"start":10027.756,"end":10054.302,"text":"發現不合格的產品先將不合格的報告交給業者依據食品安全衛生管理法第39條來做15天的一個申請回覆如果說確認結果無疑的時候衛生機關單位就要對外公佈不合格的名單對阿是這樣規定是嘛也因此本席在講這次台中市政府是不是都是依照食品相關安全食品安全衛生管理來做通報來做規劃我現在請教院長"},{"start":10056.259,"end":10068.006,"text":"我要確認一次就是說實際上他檢驗出來以後剛才您講的很對要跟業者講業者要有15天的申訴期申訴完了以後再來說但是這一塊這一塊的操作台中市政府怎麼樣做他檢驗出來以後按照這個"},{"start":10078.973,"end":10102.083,"text":"這一個情形來看的話呢?本席只想確定啦。你先聽本席把問題問完你再回答。本席只想確定。既然你也認為是說這一次因為劑量有驗出本來是不得驗出的因為有驗出但是你認為你的主觀認定是相對低的也因此你覺得是說應該地方政府要多驗幾批肉"},{"start":10102.563,"end":10131.702,"text":"好那本席就說那未來是不是我們應該中央要開定一個全國的食安會議要求告訴我們地方政府後續應該怎麼做定出一個標準第一是多低多少的範圍裡面要求地方政府應該要再重新檢驗應該要做這樣的一個確定而不是今天看到台中市政府明天看到高雄市政府我就請教如果說今天另外一個縣市在驗出一樣的漏他要怎麼處理好"},{"start":10132.302,"end":10142.068,"text":"但是我剛講過的話,我現在只要問你是說你要怎麼做?有,台中市政府有要求臺堂,所以說台中市政府才會跟業者持續再溝通啊,也是確認啊。第二個就是我剛才講的,你剛才講說如果所有的實驗室要怎麼樣來加強它的這個檢驗的水準,"},{"start":10162.1,"end":10166.283,"text":"委員長你搞錯本席的問題的方向本席現在要做的是除了我們這次的事件以外接下來我們怎麼樣加強中央跟地方同心一致"},{"start":10182.293,"end":10188.034,"text":"那就是過去沒有標準什麼時候要訂出標準?這個SOP我們會請專家學者來討論那我們盡快的可能在一兩個月的時間內就會訂出標準"},{"start":10209.359,"end":10226.422,"text":"兩個月內開全國的食安檢討會議這個不一定要開全國的檢討會議這有專家學者會議其實就能夠做不同的成分不同的化學品所以兩個月內由誰召開當然是由食藥署食藥署署長"},{"start":10227.594,"end":10243.893,"text":"當然阿是不是來那本席再請教喔昨天有提到說我們的所謂專家學者會議阿那在媒體報導裡面有講是說傳出台中的列席代表淚灑會場院長或是部長有沒有知道這個訊息"},{"start":10245.241,"end":10271.903,"text":"我是沒有接到這樣的訊息,不過在看到媒體報導,有沒有去了解一下為什麼會有,照理講地方的食藥,地方的這個衛生人員他們也很有專業,在過年這段期間不眠不休怎麼會說一個專家食安會議造成他淚灑會場。所以專業跟科學的事情的話用情緒去處理是不對的。"},{"start":10272.932,"end":10292.036,"text":"你現在在講是誰用情緒去處理?所以你現在在指責臺中的...不是,部長您這樣的回答本席很不精準,本席沒有辦法聽得懂你的回答是什麼意思。我必把這件事情當成一件事去處理。"},{"start":10296.318,"end":10320.071,"text":"其實在昨天的這個開會的過程當中那有沒有淚灑怎麼樣說這個都是媒體的報導那我沒有辦法去查證可是有一件事情是很重要在昨天的討論的過程當中我們的專家學者就是就實驗室的操作的過程當中是怎麼樣來操作有做很詳盡的調查也許在這樣調查的過程當中讓這個被"},{"start":10324.574,"end":10327.635,"text":"院長您提到的重點來了從過去到現在本席也好或說國人也好"},{"start":10339.699,"end":10358.176,"text":"就對於是說所謂的專家會議也有人建議因為這事關全民的不管是食品安全或是過去疫情期間國人使用疫苗等等相關安全我們都講說專家會議是不是能夠比照比如說像美國能夠用全程直播的方式讓大家也了解專家的會議專業的對話"},{"start":10360.658,"end":10380.189,"text":"或者是專家會議裡面可以有對外的一個會議記錄。但是過去是都有但全都是去標示化而且都是過了一個月兩個月才出來啊。我們這一次的會議不是不像你這樣講的,你誤解了。因為是還沒有出來啊。院長說2月21號的會議有絕情自拋報告你就下結論就不好啦。2月21號的會議有公開嗎?"},{"start":10390.074,"end":10411.061,"text":"所以院長我必須說就是您剛剛講的話您剛剛講說不是像我所講的我剛剛講的每一句話都是事實再來第二個部分過去我們講是說我們的專家會議可不可以公開專家會議的結果我們等到結論出來了以後我們當然會公開啊但是過程沒有辦法公開過去當然有啊有些有公開是啊有"},{"start":10412.196,"end":10433.241,"text":"我必須再糾正您喔如果說有公開的專家會議您可以再給本席後續再給本席資料但是過去好幾次重大的包括疫苗的審定包括這一次的一個食安會議專家會議都沒有公開也因此才會造成您剛剛講的就是說您也不清楚說爆傳台中市代表淚灑是什麼原因"},{"start":10433.741,"end":10453.249,"text":"因為大家都沒有看到過程,但是現在台中市政府有媒體去問確實有類撒這樣的一個狀況嗎?現在再請教院長,部長不用插話,依照立法院職權新施法本席有要求您發言的時候您再發言,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":10455.03,"end":10473.936,"text":"來院長所以重點院長我可不可以請教什麼時候這個專家會議結論會出來好那個3月份的時候我們就3月幾號現在是2月23號對啊我們3月的時候會出來因為我們可能還要決定要不要開第二次的會議等等所以但是我可以跟委員講這個"},{"start":10475.316,"end":10485.464,"text":"對阿等到等到最後的時候好院長我確定喔因為之前有好幾次會議是開會的委員名單沒有公告所以您剛剛已經在本時的質詢答覆的時候已經特別講了這一次受漏金的事件開會委員名單會公告是好謝謝院長"},{"start":10504.158,"end":10512.014,"text":"院長接下來我想利用一點時間因為施安跟施安一樣重要的國安議題也正在發酵那我想 請問施安嗎"},{"start":10513.03,"end":10534.193,"text":"對沒有錯但是因為這一今天國安議題也持續在發酵我想2月14號就有發生過這個陸船來到金門的這個事件而造成這個翻覆我不會問您細節您放心我現在只要請教您幾個比較關鍵性的議題也是家國人大家都關注的就是說在這一個過程裡面想請教一下"},{"start":10536.087,"end":10562.741,"text":"院長因為現在我們看到針對海巡署的相關的這些管理條例來講他是必須執勤辦法他是必須在執勤的時候穿著制服並且以照相錄音錄影的方式來修正保全相關的事證那現在傳出說2月14號我們的執法人員並沒有密錄器然後船上也沒有攝影設備你什麼時候知道這個事情的"},{"start":10563.803,"end":10574.974,"text":"這件事情是昨天我有了解到有這樣的狀況那最主要的是你到昨天才知道嗎我們來講那個兩件事第一個就是說他本身帶的這個攝影的"},{"start":10584.813,"end":10598.447,"text":"委員長因為這件事件是一個國安事件本席再次重申立場本席絕對支持我們的執法人員依法行政依法行政的其中一個部分就是我們有所謂的"},{"start":10599.261,"end":10628.36,"text":"海巡執法作業規範對在第九條裡面清楚明白寫著要以照相錄音錄影或修正方式保全事證或者是說遇到反抗或攻擊的時候全程錄影照相存證依規定通報反映好那請教二月十四號下午一點多發生的事情什麼時候您接獲到海委會跟您做一個通盤的報告海委會通盤的報告我們陸陸續續都有討論所以第一時間第一開始的時候什麼時候跟您回報的"},{"start":10629.093,"end":10629.495,"text":"第二天2月15日"},{"start":10634.448,"end":10659.288,"text":"那什麼時候您知道?您有沒有好奇有沒有詢問是說那過程因為國人大家都在看啊照理講你有秘錄器啊2019年的時候臺委會的主委就已經在立法院答詢是說我們的海巡弟兄在任何的這種執行的時候都有掛秘錄器你有沒有詢問秘錄器相關或者說當天發生的一個事實我2月15號的時候沒有問他因為我不太清楚這個相關的規定"},{"start":10659.929,"end":10681.235,"text":"您不太清楚相關規定那到什麼時候您再清楚在大家在討論說這個到底當時整個的這個在做好這一個抵制這一個船入境的這個情況的時候那大家在講到收證的時候我才曉得說他們沒有收證"},{"start":10682.672,"end":10701.483,"text":"這個原因最主要的是因為當時的時間很短暫那他們沒有帶隨身的這個相關的密錄器而且呢他們也沒有因為時間很短就只有不到1分鐘的反應的時間所以他們來不及錄影"},{"start":10702.103,"end":10730.882,"text":"這是我所得到的訊息你所得到的訊息但是現在我們今天早上也有徐巧興委員這邊拿到相關的資料是其實這過程裡面有3、40分鐘而不是如同現在海巡署這邊講的一個記者會說只有5分鐘的時間沒關係這個會再做查證但是院長我再請當然留待偵查所以說我今天也講說徐巧興委員他拿到的資料徐巧興委員他拿到的是爆料者吹哨者的一個資料"},{"start":10731.442,"end":10732.924,"text":"國務委員馬上就想請問海巡署一年預算有多少錢?"},{"start":10747.503,"end":10750.866,"text":"250億扣掉人事費用130億還有120億我們120億的一個預算裡面過去民進黨執政了8年的時間想到連給一個執行人員一個密錄器都沒有辦法嗎?"},{"start":10765.679,"end":10778.506,"text":"兩百五十億裡面只佔了你說用第二預備金只有兩千多萬照理講早就應該給每一個執行人員不是嗎?如果說每一個執行人員都有密錄器的話今天拿出密錄器的資料就不用各說各話就不用猜什麼"},{"start":10803.524,"end":10805.505,"text":"謝謝紅委員孟凱的質詢。接下來請登記第4號紅委員申翰請質詢。謝謝院長。那請這個陳院長。麻煩請陳院長備詢。"},{"start":10832.938,"end":10858.939,"text":"院長今天我們的食安專報我想社會其實等了一段時間尤其是最近這個非常非常受到全國注目的這個臺堂的希伯特羅的事件其實從過年前到現在今年的過年我其實在台中過那我自己就很經歷了這個"},{"start":10861.912,"end":10888.653,"text":"這個附近的街訪鄰居就在問說哇臺東市政府驗出了這個豬肉裡面有西部特羅那到底這個哪些豬肉有西部特羅那到底影響的範圍有多廣那他到底該不該再去買豬肉其實這個在過年期間都讓很多我們一般的民眾有很多的困惑我自己就經歷這個事因為我這次"},{"start":10889.921,"end":10911.634,"text":"國年其實是在台中過的所以院長我其實有幾個問題我們今天在食安專報的時候我們其實需要來討論第一件事情當然食安的問題其實就是一個風險管理的問題那在這個風險管理的問題的時候尤其是面對的是行政端當然大家一定會問的一個最核心的命題其實就是"},{"start":10912.534,"end":10912.934,"text":"那下一張齁"},{"start":10933.086,"end":10953.076,"text":"所以這個大概是我們做了一些整理也就是現在的時間軸那從目前資料看出來從2月15號臺中市政府抽驗第一次驗出在台湯的豬肉有這個以行獸體數希伯特羅的這個事件那到2月2號中市府發出新聞稿宣稱驗出"},{"start":10954.316,"end":10983.214,"text":"那後面開始陸陸續續從農業部、續場會、SGS等等的一路那甚至在最近是由臺南衛生局來檢驗但是都是未檢驗出但我其實比較好奇的事情就會是在1月15號到2月2號這中間的間隔這18天這18天我想先我也請那個王部長可不可以進一步王部長我可不可以請問一下"},{"start":10985.094,"end":10989.057,"text":"就臺堂公司是在哪一天收到臺中市政府的通知?跟委員報告好,臺中市政府臺堂是在這個2月2號他對外新聞稿之後我們其實才知道所以意思是說在2月2號新聞稿之前"},{"start":11007.535,"end":11036.755,"text":"其實臺東市政府並沒有告知台南公司這件事情。完全沒有。所以你們是看了新臺東公司是看了新聞稿才發現的。是。那這完全不合規定啊。對。照理來說剛才說他其實要先通知廠商給廠商15天的時間。15天到了以後才有公告或公布這個不合規定的廠商。按照我們的法規程序是這樣啊對不對。可是這樣看起來臺東市政府並沒有合乎規定啊。"},{"start":11038.41,"end":11055.51,"text":"我說實話我一開始看到新聞的時候我想說臺東市政府是不是真的很心急很想要一言出趕快來告知社會提醒社會結果後來看到的資料不是這樣這中間其實臺東市政府默默的自己搞了18天的時間"},{"start":11057.883,"end":11072.592,"text":"這個部長或者是院長我想請問喔如果按照一個食安管理的專業的話這18天其實台中市政府應該要完成哪些事情或者是在他這個公佈前應該要完成哪些事情就食安專業來說"},{"start":11074.871,"end":11101.186,"text":"跟委員報告他其實一開始驗到的時候應該是在15號採樣之後的幾天那時候他一開始驗到的時候應該就是要去找同批的來double check但是實驗台中的實驗室這邊的話他是卻對同一個檢體在多次的double check二十多次對不對對"},{"start":11103.29,"end":11119.149,"text":"我們現在其實陸陸續續把這個事情給釐清了我說實話我剛才聽到前面的這個洪孟楷委員剛才一直在說這個中央政府要訂SOP但現在看到的問題反而是台中政府連既有的規定都沒有遵守阿"},{"start":11121.485,"end":11136.026,"text":"你說他很急的公布,他有沒有急啊?他其實搞了18天啊。這18天明明就有很多可以做的事情,包括剛剛說到,如果你就很馬上的去市場上面找出同一批諸葛來做相關的檢驗。"},{"start":11136.947,"end":11157.832,"text":"或者是你跟中央通知了以後找中央一起來釐清有沒有跨縣市的因素我覺得這些都很好至少在你發新聞稿公布的時候社會大眾臺中市民會知道說看起來是有驗出可是大致這個事件是一個什麼樣的事件影響範圍多廣我到底要不要恐懼恐慌這件事情"},{"start":11158.192,"end":11177.634,"text":"至少大眾就不會遇到我在過年時間我們街坊鄰居的這種擔憂嘛對不對可是現在看起來這是台中市政府該做而未做的事情今天我們大家是在討論這個問題所以我要說今天我們從不管是這個有很多的民意代表我們並不是跟台中市政府說你不該"},{"start":11179.295,"end":11200.298,"text":"你不該公布我們不是說你不該公布當然驗到了秉持著透明的原則該公布就公布這沒有問題但現在的問題是好像你在公布前有明明很多該做的事情你沒做到反而才造成這個社會不必要的恐慌嘛院長是不是這樣子最重要的一件事情就是剛才你提到的"},{"start":11200.638,"end":11215.464,"text":"他應該要有15天的時間讓臺堂申請復驗才能夠公佈完全沒有做到那這18天的時間他沒有去通知臺堂給臺堂來有一個申請復驗的機會這就是沒有按照SOP"},{"start":11216.044,"end":11241.338,"text":"其實如果是台湾市政府的話我如果在1月15日宴出我如果一兩天內我就通知台湾我給15天我其實可能還是可以在2月2日的時候公布可是我可以在2月2日前就把該做的事情給做完我還可以同時把同批的豬肉都檢驗完成讓大家知道不用那麼擔心也許真的就只有這一塊天選之肉是遇到了問題其實社會不會這麼多恐慌的"},{"start":11241.678,"end":11268.678,"text":"所以我們現在說的都不是台中市政府不該公布可是我覺得很遺憾有一度現在這個不管是在來黨把它扭曲成現在執政黨是說好像台中市政府不該公布並不是我們是說你該公布前該做的事情沒有做我想這是最重要的事情院長我下面接下來要請問因為我想我們其實都學過科學我們都進過實驗室的工作裡面其實這件事情發生以後我有很多過去跟我們一起在有實驗室工作經驗的人他直接就說"},{"start":11269.807,"end":11270.447,"text":"下一張喔再往下"},{"start":11294.935,"end":11300.966,"text":"其實我們把幾個可能的因素其實列出來我一個一個想請教院長跟部長"},{"start":11302.623,"end":11331.347,"text":"現在為什麼只有臺中市臺中的奈何豬肉宴出第一個我想問養殖場是不是有含有西伏特羅成分的藥品目前我先跟委員說明齁就是豬的那個進到屠宰場是統進統出所以我們第一時間我們就移動管制以後去針對那個豬場去做所有的清查是沒有的然後我們也清查了飼料飼料沒有所以這個養殖場是沒有的對不對那飼料的部分有沒有"},{"start":11331.867,"end":11350.961,"text":"對那同樣的飼料我們也是同步在檢查包括豬隻檢查飼料檢查如果這兩個沒有的話那相對的他在這個豬場使用的西部特羅應該是不會有的好所以養殖場沒有豬場沒有飼料上面也沒有那我要問現在檢查的同一批豬肉目前查了多少同一批豬肉有沒有驗出來"},{"start":11352.368,"end":11366.527,"text":"我所了解現在目前的同一批豬肉從2月2號公布以後我們開始去查到目前為止同一批同品項的豬肉都沒有同一批同品項豬肉也沒有那有沒有進口的豬肉混沖到"},{"start":11367.108,"end":11393.153,"text":"那有關於整個的一個豬肉的屠宰特別是台堂是一個履歷驗證人他是委託縣公去做屠宰那屠宰場本身他有HACCP的一個認證那我們也調查了整個當天的屠宰的過程中只有台堂的那一批豬肉進到屠宰場並沒有其他的豬肉進到這個屠宰場裡面去所以不會有其他的豬肉去做粉蔥所以院長我們"},{"start":11393.677,"end":11408.2,"text":"﹗"},{"start":11408.499,"end":11423.168,"text":"我能夠想到三句法我們只能用一個科學的邏輯來處理這個問題所以不是養殖場看起來飼料裡面沒有同一批也沒有也不是進口混充甚至剛才說進到這個屠宰場只有這一批對不對"},{"start":11423.948,"end":11441.767,"text":"那在這個狀況裡面坦白說真的讓大家很難不懷疑是實驗室但我要說我們目前沒有直接的證據說一定是實驗室事件我們也看到新聞看到臺中市的這位人員在專家會議裡面看起來是有些情緒也許他也覺得委屈但不管怎樣"},{"start":11443.849,"end":11469.586,"text":"從刪去法來看的話大家現在很難不懷疑是實驗室事件我覺得這邊有一些大家必須互相體諒的事情至少這邏輯上面是很清楚的我們用科學的邏輯來看待這個風險管理的事情那接下來我要再問了一個問題包括這個王部長部長再往下部長這個台糖公司有一份公文"},{"start":11470.796,"end":11500.175,"text":"那發文給臺中市政府要求市政府應該要加驗同批的豬肉這個臺黨有發這個公文嘛對不對對是那臺中市政府怎麼回應臺中市政府其實沒有回我們那我們是看到他在媒體講說他沒有沒有這樣的一個機制我看到2月17他有一份公文他上面寫說欠男受理後來他回我們了是他說欠男受理那他講欠男受理的理由是什麼"},{"start":11501.223,"end":11526.034,"text":"他的意思是說我都是我主動來抽驗那如果每個人都送給我要求我驗的話他說沒有這樣的一個機制部長你覺得這個拒絕的理由合理嗎但是因為這件事情對台糖影響太大對台灣的豬肉影響太大所以當時我們才會希望地方政府可不可以就同批肉的來前後檢驗其實我們是想要確認這樣的事情"},{"start":11527.295,"end":11534.113,"text":"市長不只你希望知道我跟你說就連我自己就是說我說我過年在臺中我們有很多親戚朋友都在臺中"},{"start":11534.949,"end":11558.942,"text":"有很多的臺中市民都想知道到底如果看到一塊豬肉有西布特羅到底影響的範圍有多廣同批豬肉是不是都有我想這連很多臺中市民都想知道的事情如果不是台南發文我覺得很多臺中市民都想發文要求你是不是應該驗同批豬肉啊所以我想問部長你覺得剛剛說他說他現在拒絕的理由你覺得合不合理"},{"start":11561.54,"end":11585.068,"text":"我想這是台中市的職權所以這個台堂我們後來也中央政府請其他的地方去抽那我們台堂也把所有同批肉找的到都找到以後也讓大家來驗然後也找第三方來驗你們後來現在是給台南來驗嘛對不對是那台南就願意驗了嘛對不對我聽看起來台南比台中市政府更有科學精神啊"},{"start":11585.968,"end":11607.459,"text":"我看起來台南市政府比台中市政府更想了解真相阿我其實真的不懂一個想了解食安真相的地方政府為什麼會拒絕我真的不懂你有這麼多的市民想知道到底真相是什麼你到底有什麼理由拒絕你有什麼理由不想再驗了是台中市的實驗室能量不足嗎部長"},{"start":11609.629,"end":11621.83,"text":"這個我沒有辦法置評但是我覺得因為豬肉對國人是一個非常重要的一個產品所以我們覺得很想很想快一點讓大家有信心對"},{"start":11622.662,"end":11649.135,"text":"因為我從一開始看到這新聞的時候我覺得盧市長看起來好像是一個食安的守護者很勇於的去揭露公布他驗到的事情可是大家越了解以後越發現事實不是這樣啊你在公布前本來就有很多該做的事情沒有做造成了一定程度的恐慌但後面當今天有更多人想要請你離親的時候想要請你加驗的時候結果你又拒絕我覺得這態度很奇怪啊"},{"start":11651.08,"end":11670.354,"text":"這個態度讓我不覺得臺中市是一個食安守護者的態度啊我覺得是一個食安守護者的地方政府的話我該做我有很多該做的事情他沒做啊我覺得這是大家現在最困惑的地方最後部長再往下齁部長現在我們當然這幾天有跟臺商公司所資啦齁那看到"},{"start":11671.264,"end":11697.747,"text":"這一次同批商品下架總共是1.7公噸臺湯公司估計損失直接跟間接的總共大概5000多萬元動員人力大概是700多萬而且重點是這個動員的人力恐怕很多都是在春節的年假期間是嗎對不對沒有錯所以我們也看到有很多臺湯的業務跟相關沒有辦法休息的人員出來在媒體上面有講他們也很想哭這樣子那"},{"start":11699.69,"end":11721.295,"text":"可是我最後想要反映一件事情其實這件事情我們在立法院談了快一個月的時間談了幾個禮拜的時間也許三個禮拜的時間其實我們有很多的市民大眾朋友他請我務必一定要跟經濟部跟台堂跟行政院反映這一次的事件看起來"},{"start":11722.954,"end":11735.159,"text":"現在釐清至今有很多這個包括豬農包括很多的廠商民運是有受損我們剛剛看到間接直接的損失他們都問我一個事情是我們"},{"start":11764.783,"end":11770.991,"text":"謝謝紅委員深汗的質詢。接下來我們請登記第五位廖委員為詳質詢。"},{"start":11797.142,"end":11802.145,"text":"報告院長,請行政院長陳建仁院長請行政院陳院長備詢。首先恭喜你當選立委。謝謝院長。"},{"start":11815.199,"end":11835.046,"text":"院長上週四2月15號你在新春團拜的時候說你當這個你被問到今年祈禱是什麼時候你說你要自我檢討因為過去一年你做錯了很多事情那想要請教有沒有包括2月1號當天台中演出含禁藥肉品後中央的處置"},{"start":11836.227,"end":11850.942,"text":"當然沒有,我們天主教徒每一天早上我啦,每天去參加彌撒的時候,我們都會跟天主來祈禱。那我們做錯很多事,譬如說我是不是對人誠懇啊,對朋友交代的事有沒有做得很好,不包括這件事。"},{"start":11851.642,"end":11875.788,"text":"是,但是在2月7號的時候施要署也復驗出西部特羅那我們薛瑞元部長和吳秀梅署長也說排除實驗室問題結果到了15號後為什麼卻又開始帶風向說要查台中的實驗室委員我可以,好這個實驗室的問題是實驗的標準作業流程是沒有問題因為兩邊都檢測出來0.002ppm但是"},{"start":11880.009,"end":11880.769,"text":"剛才洪森漢委員在做這種消去法的情形"},{"start":11906.704,"end":11906.864,"text":"當然阿!"},{"start":11936.517,"end":11959.753,"text":"這就是我們剛才為什麼講的所以你都排除所有可能性你認為唯一的可能就是實驗室污染對嗎?沒有即使在所有的操作上臺中市政府有件事情沒有做好這件事情就是他18號來採檢以後他檢出來第一次檢出來如果有問題應該要給臺堂15天的深複檢驗的期間沒有做然後他就直接發布消息"},{"start":11960.573,"end":11983.904,"text":"所以你現在講的前面的過程我們怎麼做我們在養殖場我們在屠宰場我們在同一批的豬肉統統檢驗的時候都沒有檢驗出來900多件沒有檢驗出來所以換言之你是不是認為這是只有實驗室污染這一個可能剛才用排除法的情況下所有的可能性都沒有了只有這個實驗室這個檢體檢驗的出來"},{"start":11987.205,"end":12008.458,"text":"那我想請問你覺得過程中是哪裡有問題?你覺得是不是要專家學者來判斷啊?但是依照台中市政府的講法他們在這個標準品的混充的時候跟這個豬肉也完全是分開驗的那如果實驗室有汙染的話他從中間查驗了40包肉為什麼只有一包肉有驗出西部特羅這是第一個點"},{"start":12009.598,"end":12023.458,"text":"第二個點中央明明知道我們地方研究室配置的標準品的地點空間人員跟豬肉被檢驗的地點空間人員都是不同的地方而且都是完備證明也是依照你們的標準去操作的"},{"start":12024.714,"end":12043.911,"text":"第三點,中央官員跟中央的專家也都參加了復驗。中央也另外派人審查過臺中市的實驗室的,前面也都先確定沒有問題的。卻又推翻說沒有問題的認定,先設建再劃板,浪費行政資源開一個專家會議。請問你有新的事證證明說他們的這個實驗室有污染嗎?你剛剛是不是說沒辦法?"},{"start":12049.115,"end":12068.533,"text":"現在在整個實驗室18號到後來2月2號公布這個期間已經過了兩個禮拜的時間而且也沒有什麼樣的攝影的機制在所以我們真的沒有辦法去看那段時間有沒有錯誤但是最嚴重的事情就是在這18天裡面沒有做第二個檢體的檢驗而且沒有讓"},{"start":12073.136,"end":12093.086,"text":"我想問一下院長,食藥署跟中央是不是可以跨部會整合去抽驗其他同批次的豬肉?但是,我們已經驗了,結果都沒有驗出來。而且更重要的,他從來沒有請求中央來說來協助他,沒有啊,所以就公佈了啊。"},{"start":12093.886,"end":12100.228,"text":"所以這真的公佈合理嗎?15天的時間都沒有給臨時訪問。您稍等我一下,您說的同批豬肉,對,您先等我一下。您們一直在講同批豬肉,查到的。可是就我們這裡溯源編碼確認,總共這批豬肉瘦出了372公斤。"},{"start":12115.333,"end":12115.593,"text":"我跟妳講妳要問齁"},{"start":12130.723,"end":12141.311,"text":"如果一群豬吃了瘦肉精,這個瘦肉精只會跑到一隻豬的那一塊豬肉才奇怪。那我想請問,這3%裡面有一包被驗出來了,你確保其他97%完全沒有問題?當然是喔!"},{"start":12146.415,"end":12172.768,"text":"所以你覺得你這3%裡面有一包驗出來你97%就完全都沒問題我跟委員說明一下齁就是豬的一個飼養是孔徑統豬的你講的食安是科學一邊是科學你講的是政治喔所以沒有我講的不是政治我跟你講的是你們剛剛講的是實驗室可是從中間這6個月的倉儲的問題還有這3%的問題其他的同批豬肉你也沒辦法全部找回來內臟也沒辦法全部找回來的情況之下"},{"start":12173.208,"end":12194.325,"text":"你也不能夠完全推斷說就是實業室有問題你沒有不講科學嘛這裡沒有不講科學我剛剛講出的疑點都是現在的問題同一批豬同樣的飼料去飼養然後同一個除災場去除災如果要有的話絕對不會只有一個檢體上是有的那你現在說你這個母體只有3%喔"},{"start":12195.606,"end":12206.51,"text":"你還有剩下97%你追蹤不回來包含內臟你也追蹤不回來剛剛陳昭之委員問的你內臟也追蹤不到嘛那內臟是不是這個時候會更高的地方那為什麼只有這一塊肉是陽性現在的問題不是你反直血"},{"start":12211.192,"end":12212.913,"text":"二月22日衛福部跟農業部又分別召開專家會議。"},{"start":12233.619,"end":12255.082,"text":"結果當下沒有馬上把這個會議內容公開出來然後反而是要全部統籌起來你們再統一公布這樣的做法以前也沒有這樣以前也會公開出來我想要請問這樣子透明公開很難嗎而且專家會議的紀錄拖延同批的豬肉早就被吃下肚也查不了現在用這種方式去混淆焦點這不就是帶風向嗎"},{"start":12257.123,"end":12277.212,"text":"所以我認為這件事情在處理的過程中你們在過去一年的措施我認為應該是包含這件事情我覺得你的稿子講的錯了啦這一個所有的專家委員會議就是我們大家一起來好好討論討論完了以後有一定的時間以後我們會對外公布嘛所以你這樣講是不對的啦接下來這是一個八年食安的專案報告"},{"start":12282.674,"end":12296.349,"text":"所以早上院長你親口向這個立法院的報告說你說大幅增加查驗我認為你是在說謊因為根據我們跟農業部調的株枝已行受體數的瘦肉精監測結果的歷年統計"},{"start":12299.574,"end":12315.451,"text":"檢驗次數在103年的時候還有14000多件,結果民進黨執政8年第一年105年掉到12000多件。看看過去10年的變化,到了這個112年的時候只剩下5900多件,大幅縮小了57%。"},{"start":12317.308,"end":12330.244,"text":"那是因為在那一段時間很多的樣本是有瘦肉精所以才要做檢驗那當我們檢驗到後來沒有的時候當然不需要那麼大量那你是不是打臉你早上說大幅增加檢驗量呢"},{"start":12334.108,"end":12352.478,"text":"數據會說話,你早上說的是你大幅增加了檢驗的能量這個情形是對瘦肉精來講,我講的是對整體的情形來做檢驗的再來我要問一下你這個東西在很危險的情況下當然要大量檢驗,就是因為在103到106有很多很多的瘦肉精的使用嘛"},{"start":12354.18,"end":12366.581,"text":"所以你後面減少你就是推斷都沒有了才會減少可是你早上明明說的事情叫做你增加了你是不是自我打臉所有的選頁項目是增加了你現在只找收入金這一項是不公平的啦"},{"start":12367.667,"end":12391.439,"text":"我再問你們一個我們看中央政府到底重不重視食安喔就從食品安全業務的中央最高編組行政院的食安會報的設置來看而這個會報是不是每三個月就應該開一次會不包含臨時會所以換句話說每一年至少要開四次會議請問你們的行政院的食安會報有沒有按照規定定期開會有啊我在這的時候都是定期開會啊"},{"start":12392.239,"end":12413.291,"text":"有那你就是騙人囉因為我去查到資料這兩年2022年到2023年都沒有準時開會這兩年每一年尤其2022年包含我們衛福部長應該升為食安衛報的執行長在2022年跟2023年每年都只參加一次另外每一年還另外缺食兩次"},{"start":12414.392,"end":12438.551,"text":"在沒有準時開會的前提下過去8年也只開了24次會但是你知道衛福部長身為食安會的執行長當中缺席了幾次嗎?他有些時候有重要的任務他會不來這是我們可以了解但是你不要把COVID-19的時間的狀況拿來講你現在在疫情很盛行的情況下大家忙著疫情的時候但是這8年來我們的食安做得還是很好沒有開會還做得很好啊"},{"start":12443.695,"end":12458.06,"text":"所以8年：好你說做得很好我等一下再講8年來有一半的食安匯報我們的食安匯報執行長也就是衛福部長都缺席有一半而且我還抓包你們不止一年行政院食安匯報的次數還會灌不水你們2017年跟2019年開一次會變成兩次會議"},{"start":12465.421,"end":12477.55,"text":"我想要請問你們2017年2019年開一次會斷水變成兩次是不是當時還議比較重要比食安更重要2017年2019年防疫2022年2023年防疫現在在講的那個時間很多時間對啊院長你要認真看時間2019到2022年院長你要認真看時間"},{"start":12487.518,"end":12510.006,"text":"你的疫情期間我剛剛已經排除2020、2021我現在講是2022跟2023還有包含2017還有包含2017跟2019好那我就講2023嘛2023你是不是也開不足夠2023我當行政院長啊我每三個月開市場會報啊你再說以前的行政院長不認真那我再說說疫情期間嘛那我再另外講一下"},{"start":12511.57,"end":12535.61,"text":"就我們的部長已經就任以後上一次開會食安匯報是2023年3月27日也就是說到現在已經有333天沒有參加過食安匯報了我想請問院長如果你很重視食安你們會是這樣子對待食安匯報的嗎?食安如果按照食安匯報就能夠解決那我們不要跨部會的努力啦也不要跟地方政府合作啦"},{"start":12535.97,"end":12557.633,"text":"不是這樣,時安會報只是綜合性的來報告而已啦。綜合性報告不就是掌握進度會跨部會追蹤嗎?掌握進度不是只靠一次會報啦,來三個月做一次來得及嗎?時安是你們每天都應該努力。平常當然就應該努力,可是參加時安會報難道不是你們新疆院最高編組的會報嗎?"},{"start":12558.874,"end":12588.334,"text":"不能夠用食安匯報就來認為這個食安我們有沒有重視你想想看這一個台中市發布消息以後每一天都在做這個瘦肉精的重視那難怪我想要告訴院長所以因為你們這種態度所以2023年你們發生非常多的重大的食安事件冷凍藍莓在邊境被稽查出有A肝病毒但卻發生了14000多包流入市面17000多公斤被賣出或食用"},{"start":12589.374,"end":12608.806,"text":"同樣在2023年的上半年的邊境稽查就至少超過50多批的日本草莓、智利櫻桃被驗出農藥、禁藥也不必說逐批的這個流入市面的追查進度喔至今讓大家都不明白這件事情你覺得民眾會覺得你們真的很重視食安嗎?當然這是我們驗出來的喔"},{"start":12611.428,"end":12614.21,"text":"所以中央跟地方為什麼要合作來做加強檢驗"},{"start":12636.361,"end":12649.587,"text":"這都是加強檢驗的結果。這是加強檢驗的結果。如果不做檢驗,那就會進來大家都不知道。所以你是你買是進去的啊。你說你檢驗出來了,但是還有一萬四千多,一萬四千多包流入市面呢?"},{"start":12655.249,"end":12676.191,"text":"那已經流入了不是嗎?已經被民眾吃下肚了不是嗎?所以我們再來講上一年度最大的事件,也就是這個進口雞蛋混沖國產雞蛋標示成國產蛋液。液氮的事情,所以同樣的事情因為你們蛋糊指手沒有開食安會報,當初每個部會各說各話互相打臉不是嗎?"},{"start":12676.972,"end":12691.807,"text":"不是這樣子!不是!那為什麼當初連標示日期都搞不清楚?當時的這些雞蛋變成了夜蛋會有標示成台灣產地確實是因為對於這個夜蛋標示的方式認知不一樣"},{"start":12692.307,"end":12694.528,"text":"同樣當時的臺中市也查獲未來彈,標示的生產日期還比實際日期還要長。"},{"start":12743.24,"end":12752.856,"text":"謝謝六位委員、韋翔的質詢也謝謝陳院長跟院會報告上午質詢到此為止我們下午2點半繼續開會進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":21589.844,"end":21594.626,"text":"報告院會。現在我們繼續開會。下面請吳委員私謠質詢。謝謝院長辛苦了。有請陳建源院長。請陳院長備詢。請衛福、環境、經濟三位部長一起。"},{"start":21619.106,"end":21647.095,"text":"請三位部長備詢。委員長,大家都辛苦了。不會,謝謝你。時安專報紛紛擾擾終於上路了。那這段時間社會也真的付出了非常大的有形跟無形的成本。到底這個事件誰是贏家誰是輸家。我想社會可以清楚的斷定"},{"start":21647.714,"end":21671.017,"text":"在這個事件當中沒有人是贏家所以我們無論如何要在這樣一個實案的個案事件上獲得正面的教訓也就是我們好好來檢視臺堂安心豬事件臺灣社會究竟學到了什麼我們如果可以從中在這個慘痛的經驗上獲得任何一點點讓我們更好的可能跟機會"},{"start":21672.398,"end":21690.006,"text":"我們就不是輸家所以首先進入我的質詢之前我要肯定我觀察了今天早上我們官員們的表現有為有守該辯護該大聲講我們就大聲講我非常肯定大仁哥今天也硬起來了"},{"start":21691.167,"end":21716.283,"text":"透過這個專案報告我們可以很清楚的讓國人看到是誰在講科學又是誰在搞政治都會一一的現行的臺灣的公民素養是非常的高的如果同樣的思堯如果有講錯的訊息我也請求行政部門要糾正我這就是國會應當有的彼此尊重我們來論理跟專業監督好下一頁"},{"start":21717.492,"end":21731.899,"text":"五四遙是這一屆的立法院第一位針對食安問題提出質詢的委員就在這個週二我利用我的施政報告的時間我就針對食安議題來提出質詢"},{"start":21733.786,"end":21748.226,"text":"如果關心隨時隨地我們有很多的方式可以監督行政部門當然我還是樂見今天的時安專報可以更進一步的來聚焦跟探討但同時吳思瑤也是立法院唯一"},{"start":21749.247,"end":21769.556,"text":"可以在一週內有兩次機會在這裡跟您討論食安的委員所以我很謝謝我們週二的討論讓我有很多的吸收讓我可以再進一步的回去思考反除作為一個專業的國會議員我如何在政策上可以提出更好的爭辯好下一頁我週二的時候說了食安就是心安"},{"start":21771.37,"end":21796.928,"text":"經過一再的驗證我們可以清楚的知道臺灣的食安的政府體制是沒有問題的現在的問題出在人民心慌慌因為這個事件受傷了所以我們無論如何要請全力來對於國人的心理建設要趕快補強起來好下一頁我再重新來說一次幾個關鍵數字有的update了"},{"start":21797.728,"end":21816.972,"text":"例如說到底是零檢出有幾盒數字不斷地在攀升今天最新的數字來到已經檢測921盒零檢出所以921比1從這個不斷攀升的數字我記得我禮拜二在這裡質詢的時候從788盒到877盒到今天921盒都代表我們台堂秉持他的專業負責他不斷地繼續檢驗"},{"start":21823.693,"end":21851.888,"text":"雖然我們可以斷定他是單一事件還是不放棄要釐清真相我看到我們臺堂的努力跟行政部門的背膀第二個呢關鍵數字我要再說一次兩年來西部特羅這個化學用藥只進口了789毫克少於1CC這麼微量的所以我們也可以驗證到他沒有流入到任何的"},{"start":21853.209,"end":21871.63,"text":"產銷畜牧的階段他就是在實驗室使用24個實驗室臺中市政府就是其中一個有進口的單位第三個關鍵數字我們可以精準溯源做到臺堂可以快速的下架274包"},{"start":21873.692,"end":21898.077,"text":"可以精準溯源去調查同一批生產的是2730核肉可以細緻到個位數這就告訴國人臺糖作為一個國家的品牌可以安心可以放心臺糖有能力有專業也負責任的無論如何要追查事件到最後一刻"},{"start":21898.997,"end":21917.224,"text":"所以這幾個關鍵數字都告訴我們,我們國家的食安體制是沒有問題的,國人可以安心啦,不要走路啦。下一頁,我有一個新的key number是今天的專報我看到的新數字,早上也在跟王美花部長在做進一步的確認。"},{"start":21918.587,"end":21936.791,"text":"就是臺堂是這個事件最大的受害者但是臺堂是國營事業啊他的損害就是全民買單啊高達財務損失不管有形無形的變動成本或是調動成本高達5253萬5253這關鍵數字美化部長沒有錯嘛"},{"start":21942.014,"end":21957.19,"text":"而臺堂在這個事件當中動員的人力高達741人次,包括臺堂自己的工作同仁,還包括這些帶送商。所以梅花部長,臺堂的損失怎麼替他平反,誰能來賠啊?"},{"start":21960.359,"end":21983.012,"text":"目前為止我們趕快把這個事件釐清,然後確認臺堂的豬肉是沒有問題。我想目前的要務我們是先做這件事情。很遺憾沒有人能賠,全民買單。但好歷代是臺堂,國營事業,老字號,金的條。如果這樣一個事件謠言發生在任何一個民間企業,哇,三天就倒了啦。"},{"start":21984.127,"end":21998.23,"text":"但是我們有一件事情可以做我覺得我辦公室的幕僚非常的可愛他們都是年輕人他們跟我說老闆臺堂受傷這麼深國家又沒有辦法給他們平反五千多萬開什麼玩笑我們可以做一件事"},{"start":21999.264,"end":22026.431,"text":"我們可以請消費者就有最大的力量我們一起臺糖停起來臺糖吃起來臺糖的產品買起來剛剛中午我跟我助理去了一趟全聯我們買了臺糖的燕麥片辦公室大家下午下午查一下我們買了臺糖的手工水餃晚上半夜我回家都是半夜可以自己泡自己煮"},{"start":22027.54,"end":22054.897,"text":"我們買了砂糖我喜歡吃甜我助理特別給我買這麼一大包我不知道吃多久還有台糖很多的罐頭我這裡是鳳梨罐頭其實它有各類的罐頭我們要呼籲所有的消費者挺台糖挺國家的好品牌這是我今天在這裡拋出來的第一個訊號我們可以在這個事件當中獲得一個正向的事情"},{"start":22055.868,"end":22058.729,"text":"除了有形的損失,其實無形的損失更是難以計算。"},{"start":22080.922,"end":22108.252,"text":"我很少數可以同意柯文哲的說法可是他這幾天說的話我是同意的他說這就是實驗室污染嘛這簡單的判斷嘛然後呢他也說簡單的事簡單解決他有很多事情要做不要浪費時間在這種無聊的事所以柯文哲主席講的話我也希望民眾黨的委員們要聽"},{"start":22109.977,"end":22134.364,"text":"我們希望政治上也要停損不要讓意識再空轉我們讓整個事件最起碼的讓我們的食安制度是如何的精進在國人面前被看到而作為政治工作者不要在這個事件上見縫擦針食安就是科學食安不要搞政治好下一頁回到專業問題我們的食安專家會議已經開完了"},{"start":22139.005,"end":22155.626,"text":"那養殖端沒問題徒宅端沒問題就是出在實驗室的檢測端有問題那您那天告訴我週二說大概兩週要結案可不可能更快好像事實釐清的"},{"start":22156.738,"end":22157.999,"text":"臺中市政府的責任怎麼來究責?"},{"start":22177.012,"end":22201.145,"text":"這個部分的話專家委員會應該對於實驗的步驟等等怎麼樣來做更好有一些看法另外一件事情也是大家蠻關心的就是他這個採到檢體到公布這個結果一共有18天的時間可是當他一檢出來有西布特羅的時候並沒有讓台堂有一個申請復驗的這樣的一個機制那所以呢才造成應該在"},{"start":22202.597,"end":22223.596,"text":"宣布以前應該要有一個復宴的機制可是這個機制並沒有進行就發布。謝謝院長的回覆所以說在事務上下一頁臺堂事件教會臺灣的是至少我們中央政府幫地方政府一把在體制上更完備食安不分中央地方不分政黨"},{"start":22224.637,"end":22250.716,"text":"我們協助地方政府來檢視而且精進他的檢驗作業這個您上週﹐這週二答應我要來做協助各個地方政府也不要只針對臺中市政府也許其他縣市政府六都還是有能量的也許有一些地方政府他更需要專業的軟硬體的協助協助地方政府來精進檢驗的作業的SOP包括軟硬體第二改善資訊公開的流程就您剛講的"},{"start":22252.057,"end":22279.097,"text":"那我要再進一步說因為這一次他的個案是就是檢驗到非常非常極限值0.001002所以我們也應當在這個對外公開的這個流程裡頭我個人認為是應當要有個分流的機制就是說當一檢測那是大量的污染的時候大量的擴散是系統性的研判的時候趕快公佈但是如果是極微量的"},{"start":22279.657,"end":22279.797,"text":"我覺得兩條路"},{"start":22295.435,"end":22320.341,"text":"台中市議會3月8號就要召開實案的專案會議就回到地方政府負起政治責任監督畢竟是在地方政府我個人對於邀請盧秀燕市長到立法院來備詢或報告我是個人持比較保留啦我認為還是基於地方自治但是另外一個部分也許監察院是一個可以協助釐清這整個事實很重要的一個調查機關"},{"start":22321.901,"end":22332.776,"text":"也許監委們聽到呼籲我沒有辦法指揮監委當然基於憤悸之間也許這會是一個協助進一步調查的必要的手段好下一頁"},{"start":22333.939,"end":22354.468,"text":"那這個馬英九任內跟蔡英文任內的食安大型事件我那天分享了7比27件在馬英九任內我們任內有兩件我們盡量做到零容忍但是呢再進步的這件事情是不容抹煞的下一頁"},{"start":22355.308,"end":22377.923,"text":"所以這幾年來建組織修法案增預算,我們8年投入92.5億來進行食安的提升,遠比馬英九在2016年把政權交到我們手上的時候是多了2.3倍。我呼籲朝野的立委繼續來監督,繼續來支持,做不好就給資源,做不好來修法。"},{"start":22378.763,"end":22405.278,"text":"而不是處處為難所以我要刻意再把這樣的資訊羅列出來最後一部分是我今天最在意的部分了下一頁實案在進步可是台灣的假訊息讓台灣大退步我很赫然的發現有一個北歐的專業權威的調查謠言獲重假訊息最嚴重的國家台灣連續10年是全球的冠軍"},{"start":22406.82,"end":22407.761,"text":"臺灣成為一個謠言貨眾事件No.1這對我們來講和其不堪。下一頁"},{"start":22415.543,"end":22438.576,"text":"而官方打假我這裡提出來的是食藥署在2015年成立一個食藥闢謠專區所以9年來有566件的假消息當中食品類有350件佔6成其他有醫療器材的假消息化妝品的假消息跟藥品的假消息非常的嚴重9年來有566件"},{"start":22441.858,"end":22468.544,"text":"六成是食安所以就我們需要重建全民的辨識食安假訊息的全民教育需要全面來啟動下一頁民間的臺灣事實查核中心這個民間機構NGO他們也具體的在2022年提出小心有毒的食安假訊息他們提出了兩個樣態食安假訊息的樣態一就是救蚊蟲草"},{"start":22469.304,"end":22498.024,"text":"把過去發生的事來說成是今年新發的事件然後它有照片有圖片然後就引起全民的恐慌另外一種樣態是去脈絡化的再製加蔥加料然後去頭去尾把簡單來講就是重製了一個假消息所以我們全民的食安教育全民的打假怎麼來完備呢我們來到我的最後倒數第二頁"},{"start":22499.059,"end":22524.539,"text":"院長,我們曾經在2019年修了9個法,不夠。我們針對至少今天這個主題食品安全衛生管理法46條之一,針對散佈食品安全謠言或不實訊期只能夠罰台幣100萬。今天這個案子台堂是賠了5000多萬。重修吧,這個部分應當可以做吧。即刻啟動。然後最後一頁,我再一次來說,"},{"start":22525.959,"end":22533.432,"text":"給社會的一堂課快速結案責任歸屬協助地方政府精進食安打假要升級還有"},{"start":22579.974,"end":22589.855,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":22604.738,"end":22609.839,"text":"好,謝謝吳委員施要的質詢。接下來我們請登記第7號徐委員巧欣。徐委員恭喜你,來,總政理委。"},{"start":22627.964,"end":22649.931,"text":"院長你在過年的時候有告訴大家說你過去一年做錯很多事我現在就要來問問看你到底知不知道自己做錯什麼反省了沒有首先我們農業部去告民眾說他們綠雞蛋假消息你還跳出來說這是一則假消息結果被法院打臉了你有錯嗎"},{"start":22650.971,"end":22672.906,"text":"法院的判斷你自己看看內容委員你看看那個法院的內容宣判的內容你講的不是這樣喔你看看法院宣判的內容他只是說他沒有辦法查證你那個不要扭曲法院的判斷不要扭曲法院的判斷"},{"start":22677.61,"end":22679.972,"text":"台灣接了詐騙訊息96%的民眾都收到過去年被詐騙79億政府有錯嗎?院長"},{"start":22697.357,"end":22705.179,"text":"有錯沒有這麼簡單的問題嗎?有錯沒有,我是問你覺得有沒有錯以後我會慢慢問你要怎麼解決,你有沒有錯?政府有沒有錯?有錯沒有回答不出來我反駁他簡直關心說成是飛彈你在立法院裡面說台灣被飛彈攻擊了,你有沒有錯?"},{"start":22721.055,"end":22721.435,"text":"委員這一個你要有證據喔"},{"start":22739.901,"end":22759.401,"text":"這個昨天在我們的檢察官講的他沒有沒有證實沒有證實是碰撞防護你這個要負責任你要負責任的講法你這個要負責任喔這是你講的喔碰撞防護是你講的這是檢察官沒有這樣說是你自己的心證喔"},{"start":22760.402,"end":22762.984,"text":"你也覺得沒有錯,百分之百知道的"},{"start":22781.226,"end":22795.738,"text":"院長你剛在對行的時候說要給臺堂申復期要晚15天公佈我問喔這個案子如果晚15天公佈除了讓國人晚15天知道事實真相以外會不會驗出希伯特羅我只談這個案子"},{"start":22796.613,"end":22819.253,"text":"好,這個案子我可以跟你講,如果檢查出來﹖會不會嗎?只有15分鐘的時間而已,為什麼要浪費呢?中央有沒有驗出希伏特羅?這個案子晚15天後部會不會驗出希伏特羅?而且按照標準作業流程,當你檢查出來有這個希伏特羅的時候,應該在15天內讓台堂有申請復驗。"},{"start":22820.774,"end":22834.58,"text":"但是他沒有照標準作業流程來做而且他驗出來的量是0.00的ppm是相當的低極度的低那一塊肉才有其他沒有那一塊肉才有驗出來好不好"},{"start":22845.685,"end":22859.751,"text":"你剛剛說台中的實驗室污染喔,你說台中的實驗室污染是刪去法,你是在參加百萬小學堂嗎?若這個邏輯也沒有按照科學證據,那我們談什麼?談憑你個人的想法。所以你剛剛說你認為台中實驗室是"},{"start":22868.167,"end":22870.309,"text":"當然有,但是呢現在目前我們如果按照這個情況下來來"},{"start":22897.751,"end":22909.618,"text":"你們呢,驗出西伯特羅的批次豬肉裡面百分之多少已經賣掉了?賣掉的我不清楚,但是整個...不清楚!不清楚你說你都驗了!"},{"start":22912.877,"end":22917.439,"text":"所有的豬齁他是吃同一批飼料的這個跟3%沒有關係齁最主要是他同一批的肉是用同樣的飼料"},{"start":22933.985,"end":22940.031,"text":"我問你的是驗了百分之多少?國人有知道的權利百分之多少?百分之多少嗎?百分之多少?我想問百分之多少啊?我想知道啊"},{"start":22952.743,"end":22976.85,"text":"委員你講的是外行化所有的食安的檢查就是用同批的樣品來檢查你現在講的是外行化食安不是這樣檢查的你們報告裡面有寫幾包這個批字有幾包報告裡面寫的喔嘿你報告寫的欸你看啊你報告寫的你們不知道答案是幾包啊"},{"start":22977.458,"end":22988.948,"text":"翻譯一下嘛,現在翻好不好,我給你一點時間,我還有9分鐘。翻譯一下你們裡面寫這個批詞有幾包。我跟你講過,所有的檢驗,有36包被檢查。 不,那個批詞裡面有2730包是你專案報告的數字。"},{"start":22996.054,"end":23018.035,"text":"兩千七百三十包是所有的產品我剛剛問你這個問題嘛你為什麼不翻翻報告你裡面自己寫的我問請問你們驗了幾包你這樣講我能回答驗了幾包我們兩千七百三十包裡面驗了幾包我們同一批十七包不知道同一批十七包臺堂送了三十六件你們裡面寫的請問他三十六件裡面是幾包三十六"},{"start":23021.28,"end":23025.942,"text":"我跟委員說明一下齁整個食安的一個檢測的部分它不是用百分比的部分因為百分比是用抽檢的部分"},{"start":23046.609,"end":23072.029,"text":"對,就是因為他租是同一批飼養,用同樣的飼料,所以你如果說他有檢測的時候,那請問驗出第二包、第三包、第四包的話,請問可以算?任何一包,那現在驗出了沒有?我們現在除了那一塊肉以外,那一塊肉以外。委員,你這樣講我們沒有辦法討論啦。你不按照工學的推論,你不按照邏輯推論,"},{"start":23074.531,"end":23079.174,"text":"我問你我們食藥署農業部有沒有曾經驗出一包任何的有毒素的違法的但第二包以後都沒驗出來就選擇不公佈的經驗"},{"start":23095.117,"end":23123.778,"text":"我跟委員說明喔,如果說我驗出一包以後,我會馬上針對同一批同品下來的產品去復驗。對,到目前為止都沒有。我們的SOP現在是這樣對不對?SOP很簡單嘛,就是說你去採樣,採樣來了以後,如果你發現他是有驗出,就應該讓廠商在15天內要申請復驗。台中市政府沒有做。第二件事情,還沒有講完,第二件事情,"},{"start":23124.158,"end":23142.747,"text":"他檢驗出來了以後如果很低的濃度應該要再去採其他的樣本來做檢驗。請問新北市跟雲林市有等待廠商復驗15天嗎?他驗出來以後馬上新北市政府就去查了他的上游。"},{"start":23147.027,"end":23162.277,"text":"還是你不知道?我們剛剛去查核過了。所以蘇丹隔住可以不用15天,但是溯源需要15天?不是,他們有溯源。這一件事情很重要,一個有溯源,一個沒有溯源。但他不是糾結在15天嗎?那現在15天去哪裡了?"},{"start":23163.177,"end":23163.577,"text":"實案法第5條裏面寫什麼?"},{"start":23182.779,"end":23185.461,"text":"所以他寫得很清楚,申請復驗是廠商的權利,臺中市政府有讓臺堂來申請復驗"},{"start":23207.256,"end":23218.149,"text":"但是什麼時候要公佈是政府應該按照食安法第5條就要公佈的。台中市政府是不是食藥署的認證所單位。我們食藥署都認可這個台中食鹽署。"},{"start":23223.576,"end":23233.901,"text":"臺中市的食安處是野雞單位嗎?這個實驗室我們食藥署有沒有給認證?有嗎?沒有,你們有沒有給實驗?現在驗出來的這個臺中食安處你們有沒有給他認證通過?他們是不是一個合格的實驗室?他認證是一回事可是每一個時間都要加以認證我只問你他有沒有被食藥署認證是一個合格的實驗室?"},{"start":23246.568,"end":23250.289,"text":"是還是不是?是還是不是?我先問你這個問題。那他是還不是的?那他是還不是的?我先問你這個問題。我先問你這個問題。你怎麼知道後面要問你什麼呢?他是不是一個合格的實驗室啊?"},{"start":23266.194,"end":23288.82,"text":"曾經被認為是已經不被認為了是嗎曾經是現在曾經是的意思就是現在已經不是了所以你們取消台中市政府的這個實案單位的認證了是嗎你這樣講你的邏輯就是如此啊如果你認為實驗室有污染的話你要撤掉他的認證嗎認證撤掉了沒有什麼時候要啟動撤掉的這個程序以及是否要請檢調來調查台中的這個實驗室"},{"start":23295.54,"end":23310.226,"text":"委員,我們是不是有請專家委員會去調查?那調查出來以後,在談判要不要認真呢?你農業不是直接去提告民眾,所以你們應該要提告台中市的這個實業市,會不會提告?"},{"start":23312.847,"end":23313.408,"text":"請問告不告台中實驗室?告或不告?"},{"start":23332.353,"end":23360.348,"text":"這個委員的問題是很奇怪臺中市政府對於他檢驗出來的這個西部特樓發現只有他一塊應該是臺中市政府要去負責啊所以第一方就是臺中市政府要負責但是臺中市政府也請中央來協助所以我們才有組織專家委員會來幫忙嘛那有人說呢這個事件是政治牽面人你同意嗎他們說臺中市政府下毒啊"},{"start":23362.59,"end":23371.194,"text":"我認為講簽名人這件事情是危言聳聽。那這樣子的造謠有沒有打算提告社會法?但是我們馬上就澄清,如果是簽名人下的絕對不是那個濃度。"},{"start":23384.178,"end":23398.437,"text":"但是我們不判斷這是缺面人的啊我們很簡單的食安的特色委員你不懂嗎委員你不曉得缺面人的下午情況跟這個情形是完全不一樣所以你現在是"},{"start":23401.621,"end":23418.96,"text":"所以不提告簽名人的因為我已經幫你準備好了我知道你們很愛告人我幫你準備好了一批名單上面就是有曾經說過現在有政治簽名人在吐豬肉下毒害很多民眾不敢買豬肉的名單你們只要一聲令下我馬上提供資料給你讓你去告他們"},{"start":23419.781,"end":23438.553,"text":"委員你這樣做沒有辦法增進臺灣食安的繼續的經濟那怎麼樣可以你只是在延遲公開就可以增加我們臺灣的食安延遲食安延出一包然後不要公佈就可以捧棒增加我們臺灣的食安但是如果驗到了很緊張趕快公佈出來就是在讓我們的食安出問題我再問你這是民進黨的文宣他寫說臺中市政府採購西部特羅"},{"start":23447.239,"end":23457.861,"text":"流向去哪裡說清楚暗示因為採購西部特羅的關係所以你們都有問題各縣市政府採購西部特羅院長不可以嗎?"},{"start":23458.766,"end":23478.524,"text":"可以啊,但是就在實驗室裡面使用。因為現在講到真正的重點,因為西部特羅只有在實驗室裡面,所以所有的飼養的過程都不會有西部特羅的出現。那現在只有一塊肉在一個實驗室檢驗出來,請問這個西部特羅從哪裡來?"},{"start":23481.527,"end":23482.247,"text":"你的邏輯呢?"},{"start":23482.247,"end":23482.787,"text":"你的邏輯呢?"},{"start":23482.787,"end":23483.227,"text":"你的邏輯呢?"},{"start":23483.227,"end":23485.628,"text":"食藥署有買啊!"},{"start":23485.628,"end":23487.128,"text":"食藥署沒檢驗出來啊!"},{"start":23487.128,"end":23489.269,"text":"食藥署沒檢驗出來啊!"},{"start":23489.269,"end":23499.131,"text":"所以有史布特羅的實驗室就只有一塊肉檢驗出來,這一塊肉就是在台東市政府的實驗室啦!"},{"start":23499.131,"end":23501.271,"text":"他就是這個豬肉下毒的人!"},{"start":23501.271,"end":23502.451,"text":"這個是造謠吧?"},{"start":23502.451,"end":23503.632,"text":"這是抹黑吧?"},{"start":23503.632,"end":23505.452,"text":"完全不是啊!"},{"start":23505.452,"end":23505.732,"text":"確實是!"},{"start":23505.732,"end":23509.393,"text":"請問文獻的院長認不認為這一張圖卡是在造謠在抹黑啊?"},{"start":23509.853,"end":23534.151,"text":"我是認為臺州市政府確實有西部特隆,而臺州市政府檢驗的那一塊肉也有西部特隆,也只有那一塊肉有,這是事實。違量元素的違量驗出的話以後不用公布你點頭,所以你要修法嗎?他說違量的話可以不用公布,你再點頭,你說我請問未來修法的方向是不是如果驗出"},{"start":23550.903,"end":23553.206,"text":"各位委員同仁"},{"start":23559.721,"end":23582.537,"text":"好各位委員同仁跟大家報告兩個重點第一個重點請尊重諮詢委員第二個重點我們今天會專案報告是用疾問疾答的方式進行由委員跟官員共同用使用詢答時間委員諮詢再由官員就諮詢的範圍答覆"},{"start":23584.238,"end":23611.768,"text":"因此委員跟官員之間基於互相尊重,共同遵守此項規定。好不好,非常謝謝徐委員巧心,也謝謝陳院長,也謝謝官員。接下來我們請中委員嘉賓特別跟院會報告一下今天是中嘉賓委員的生日。所有的委員跟官員我們幫他用掌聲來祝賀他好不好,生日快樂。"},{"start":23613.669,"end":23614.089,"text":"請中委員嘉賓質詢。"},{"start":23630.443,"end":23654.752,"text":"我們請今天的壽星徐嘉斌委員,啊請仔細,中嘉斌委員,對不起主席、外場的委員先進、內協的政府機關所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生有請院長跟兩位部長,學部長跟陳部長拿兩位部長學部長跟陳部長好的,再次請陳院長跟兩位部長備詢眾委員好院長好兩位部長好"},{"start":23659.964,"end":23685.479,"text":"請問院長部長你們過去有沒有參加政論節目的現場有沒有沒有沒有我是常參加啦我倒覺得剛剛似乎委員的詢答好像是在政論節目的現場只是通常在那個時候作為節目主持人也就是現在的院長的位置的人會出來制止啊那覺得很遺憾的齁剛剛那樣的討論無助於事實的澄清"},{"start":23686.109,"end":23713.023,"text":"而且還錯誤引用在場委員之前的發言我覺得這也不足取啊所以我鄭重的請院長未來可以陳情你當發言陷入這樣的情況的時候可以適時的來維持一下秩序可以嗎?謝謝院長好那我們就開始今天的質詢這個天選之樓西部特樓的事件那請問一下一片肉同一個檢體檢驗超過20次數值都不一樣那這合常理嗎?院長您是科學家"},{"start":23714.228,"end":23731.256,"text":"那您覺得通常這種情況之下,正規的實驗室他會怎麼去處理這樣的檢驗結果?正規的實驗室應該有兩個部分。第一個呢,如果這一片座之外呢,還有其他同一批的座應該要來做檢驗。第二個呢,他也可以請求另外的這個專業的這個檢驗機構呢,再協助他來了解為什麼他的這個數值會不一致。"},{"start":23736.641,"end":23759.702,"text":"是因為我也念過國中也念過高中雖然我念的是文組但是我們做實驗課的時候也是有這樣的要求當你做出來實驗數值跟人家不一樣的時候那可以請別人再照方的操作一次看會不會做出這樣的結果對不對好那請問一下往下一頁齁那麼接下來呢請問陳部長齁同批的肉品920件零檢出你們是用什麼樣的標準去找這920件檢體"},{"start":23761.764,"end":23776.866,"text":"同一隻豬,同一批豬,還是同一批梅花肉,還是同一個台堂的養豬場,你們是怎麼做的?我想跟委員說明,大概分兩個部分。第一個部分就是,我們是針對台東市政府所公布的這一批"},{"start":23778.568,"end":23802.26,"text":"我們馬上去追回溯到同一批同品項的這些豬肉那有掌握到的這些豬肉部分總共有17包在前面兩天17包檢驗中沒有然後第二個部分就是溯源到南京的養豬場那養豬場的部分我們會針對同一批生產的這些豬肉跟他的飼料連飼料都驗了"},{"start":23805.422,"end":23819.931,"text":"如果有可能的話那有可能會在飼料裡面添加所以我們針對飼料也驗結果也是沒有的這920件驗的結果同一批肉品的批號的肉品加工的肉品對肉品來的同一批豬"},{"start":23822.473,"end":23833.58,"text":"對,是不同批的豬養豬場對,同一批養豬場也去抽其他的豬這批養豬場的飼料包括庫存的飼料都拿出來抽是不是?"},{"start":23833.58,"end":23849.371,"text":"是所以那經過這樣整變的時候你是不是覺得可以排除飼料添加的可能?以目前來講齁我們所檢測的這些數據的結果都沒檢出那我們初步是排除說他在臺堂的南境的飼料那個養豬場排除飼料添加的問題對,好"},{"start":23850.712,"end":23871.187,"text":"那不是台湯的養豬場有沒有做檢測?我們也有,我們在肉餅市場也檢測了。目前可不可以說經過你們檢測的基本上並沒有豬農在飼料添加,目前你們檢測的?對,目前我們檢測的包括肉餅市場跟台湯的市場都沒有。那這總共累積1567件都沒有檢出瘦肉精?"},{"start":23871.769,"end":23892.577,"text":"那是不是可以還豬農清白因為我們屏東是養豬大縣豬農很care這個事情你覺得有這樣的有沒有辦法還豬農清白我覺得以我們現在的數據去可以推斷說我們現在目前國產豬的豬肉的飼養都沒有使用這個西部特羅所以我可以說一個簡單的決定就還豬農清白接下來如果不是豬農的問題"},{"start":23893.857,"end":23903.409,"text":"那從生產再賣出的零檢出、養豬場、屠宰分莊、信工、賣場、台糖的賣場或是那一個國軍的承銷商的陳列品"},{"start":23904.909,"end":23907.17,"text":"對,因為我們現在的數據顯示臺糖的肉品是我想是絕對沒問題的。"},{"start":23926.403,"end":23953.767,"text":"好,所以臺黨也是清白的,中壇也是清白的,那請問院長那關於你一個科學家的結果有一位民眾黨的主席說啊這個沒人知道這是實驗室污染你覺得他這話可信嗎?我想經過剛才的這樣的一個科學的論證確實就只有臺中市政府的實驗室的一塊肉有那所以他判斷是實驗室污染的可能性但是我個人是覺得說"},{"start":23954.931,"end":23969.642,"text":"到目前為止因為他買到這個檢體到檢驗這個階段已經很長現在要收集這個真正的事證已經有困難但是我們不能夠排除有實驗室污染的可能性所以實驗室污染現在恐怕也很難證實雖然不能證實但是有可能"},{"start":23973.044,"end":23997.957,"text":"但是呢臺中市衛生局說這是非科學的說法但是有人不是說科學的說法有人是說從動機論就跑出了剛剛前面委員提到的所謂的政治簽面人所謂的政治簽門表示他不是簽面人啊簽面人是為了真的下毒要去毒死人去勒索對不對那顯然的西普特羅在這樣的含量是毒不死人的他的目的大概也不是透過下毒來恐嚇食品工廠"},{"start":23998.757,"end":24014.005,"text":"他是要製造其他的目的,那有人說這樣是政治牽連,換言之這個驗出來的希伏特羅如果不是實驗室污染,不是被動地被附著到這個殘藥,是有人刻意地放進去的,你覺得有沒有這個可能?"},{"start":24014.892,"end":24036.987,"text":"我想在實驗室的同仁在做實驗的時候大概不會是實驗室的人做的有沒有對如果不是實驗室人做的那有沒有可能是在實驗室送到實驗室之前在賣場的檢體上有人放有沒有這個可能一點點千萬分之一可能有沒有這個可能這個可能要需要看這個賣場的錄影帶的檢體很好這就是我的重點了"},{"start":24037.788,"end":24049.72,"text":"至早在目前為止公務機關在沒有查明這個情況之下就強制商品下架是不是有產生對於該商品公司一個國家賠償法的賠償責任的問題"},{"start":24053.367,"end":24080.529,"text":"這一件事情確實是造成了臺堂很大的損失。損失多少你知道嗎?五千三百多萬。我們看一下,臺堂說損失了多少?損失了將超過千萬。那你覺得如果真的是成立國家賠償的要件,的確是公務人員有心或無心的疏失或犯錯,那是不是臺堂有可能可以提起國家賠償,要求相關的公務機關負責,有沒有這個可能性?這個我們來...有沒有?"},{"start":24081.9,"end":24104.299,"text":"確實他們有損失這是事實不過現在最重要的那假如證明是公務人員的疏失或過失那可以提出國賠嗎?對那如果確實是有公務人員的疏失的話那台堂至少他可以證明他的損失那請問這些日子以來本月2號台中市總記者會之前農業部長我們毛豬每公斤的價格是93塊5交易投訴是2"},{"start":24108.563,"end":24117.609,"text":"兩萬七千頭。結果開了記者會之後呢價格掉到八十四塊錢。教育投數呢降到了兩萬二。請問你認為豬農或養豬產業有沒有損失?"},{"start":24120.407,"end":24144.916,"text":"我想整個的事件一開始是引起了一些我看消費者對於我們國產豬肉的疑慮的部分那在過年前的部分我們現在的平均的批發價大概是90.8元還維持一定但是在過年後以後開始有一些降低那這個降低的部分一部分的因素是大家的一個恐慌那另外一個部分是因為過年後的一個消費的一個習性的疲弱"},{"start":24145.436,"end":24145.977,"text":"我們來看一下,那就問題來了。"},{"start":24168.715,"end":24169.776,"text":"豬農是完全沒有舉證的能力"},{"start":24193.795,"end":24213.947,"text":"那如果後來證明既不是台糖的問題是某公務機關的錯台糖可以跟負責的人提出國賠那豬農受到影響他沒有能力去舉證請問豬農的損失誰來賠我想豬農的損失他其實最在意的就是說他的國產豬肉不要讓消費者失去信心我覺得這一點一定要重要那是未來"},{"start":24215.848,"end":24231.168,"text":"那如果過去農業部會不會承諾可以來協助豬農去舉證跟界定他們的損失就他們過去這段時間因為這個烏龍事件所造成損害幫豬農來協助未來如果他們採取司法途徑他們至少跟台糖公司一樣可以去舉證"},{"start":24232.449,"end":24257.234,"text":"外部客觀的一個損失農業部可不可以來協助如果他們請求對我想我們會跟我們的養豬業者去研議好相關的一個承諾會幫助他們嗎對我們會幫助如果養豬協會提出來農業部願意協助他們來定損跟舉證嗎後續如果說我們的檢查是的確是因為這個事件是一個很特殊的因果關係有法院來判定啦但是舉證舉證跟定損農業部願意來協助嗎我們會來協助很好"},{"start":24261.315,"end":24283.785,"text":"接下來我要請衛福部長其實這件事情呢我不敢說他是政治牽面人但是賣場陳列的生鮮食材你有沒有去過便利超商買過茶葉蛋有有嘛部長你有吃過嘛你知道你前一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道你知道你後面一個買茶葉蛋的人是什麼人不知道那如果前面一個人的手上很髒東西掉到茶葉蛋你去買茶葉蛋你會不會擔心"},{"start":24287.988,"end":24309.175,"text":"當然有這種可能嘛請問一下你覺得目前在賣場如果包裝好的完整封存的食品過去都曾經被發生過真正的切面能下毒的情況那現在不是包裝完好的食品像茶葉蛋關東煮開架式的讓消費者不定特定的要有自由取用有沒有可能產生在賣場污染的情況"},{"start":24310.315,"end":24331.886,"text":"如果開架的話有可能有可能部長您不太舒服了我就問院長好了那危害控管沒有強制賣場導入你看看我們從原料的生產到加工製造都有強制導入HACCP一共有提供了在食品安全衛生法管理法第8條第二項有超過的有10類"},{"start":24333.027,"end":24361.676,"text":"包括餐廳業者他的人員要定時接受健康檢查他們要遵守一定的衛生規範對不對這是我們的法規有規定的那是指專門處理顧客飲食的專業人員特定人員但是在賣場前面的顧客你有辦法要求他洗過手再去夾茶葉蛋嗎沒有,如果是顧客可能沒有辦法嘛對不對所以我們來看一看那是不是從這次事件的教訓如果有人"},{"start":24362.945,"end":24377.996,"text":"萬一像簽名人那模仿因為我們台灣的賣場很多熟食是公開隨意顧客取用的只要有一個地方發生問題是不是造成了所有的恐慌對不對簽名人當時在日本就是這樣子"},{"start":24378.576,"end":24381.217,"text":"我覺得這個部分我們可以再來監控加強也就是說我要提醒一下部長跟院長"},{"start":24403.646,"end":24412.545,"text":"今天這個事情已經證明可以大概可以證明說不是豬農在飼料上違法添加也幾乎可以證明食品加工廠跟賣場"},{"start":24414.298,"end":24435.092,"text":"市民廠本身他並沒有在這個過程中去污染那有一個可能就是實驗室自己購買的藥品在檢查過程中可能是無意中的污染但是也很難去查個水落石出但是也有人說有可能是在開放式的貨架上特定的產品被下藥我不要說是下毒"},{"start":24435.572,"end":24438.434,"text":"我想在賣場裡面特別是開架式的像這樣open的那個食物的販賣確實是要加強來管理那這個部分我們可能需要"},{"start":24465.216,"end":24467.337,"text":"去年發生毒莓果事件的時候我就要求衛福部"},{"start":24488.595,"end":24506.829,"text":"我說對於這些大型的賣場因為他們銷量特別大他們說他們的進口之前都交給檢驗室檢查過了或者說他們信賴出口的時候對方的官方跟我方的官方的抽驗他自己進入賣場後沒有再去做一些必要的化驗他只有說自主管理部長是不是這樣"},{"start":24508.342,"end":24522.937,"text":"那你認為現在經過這個事件之後對於這些銷量特別大的大型賣場是不是要刻意他隨時去他的賣場做一些不是自主而是被強制要求要去做必要的巡檢防止他的賣場他的商品被污染被破壞"},{"start":24523.678,"end":24525.219,"text":"這還是會有一點困難那要不要去研擬?可以,院長他承諾了你覺得什麼時候可以做?"},{"start":24550.626,"end":24551.787,"text":"謝謝總委員嘉賓我們接下來登記第9號我們謝委員榮屆質詢"},{"start":24587.168,"end":24602.156,"text":"陳議長陳議長陳院長有請陳院長備詢小議員總議感謝你你要聽台語還是國語都可以你台語講得比較好,我沒理你比較好沒什麼,你講得做得比較好我覺得稍微有這個"},{"start":24617.079,"end":24618.539,"text":"對,我知道委員你很重視"},{"start":24635.916,"end":24655.448,"text":"我看你如果跟民進黨的議員這樣一拳一拳,國民黨的委員站在你面前問兩句,你就放下了就要看問你有道理沒道理嘛,我講道理啦,我講道理,要講道理小心走不前,不然你就要講你外行但是他講的確確實實是外行啦來我問你,這地震嚴重出問題嘛"},{"start":24664.025,"end":24664.965,"text":"第一吃什麼治療第一吃什麼治療"},{"start":24694.824,"end":24694.984,"text":"天價物是什麼?"},{"start":24713.244,"end":24739.254,"text":"施料的添加物包括它的一些促進生長的合法的這些使用的這些添加物包括一些微量元素。穀粉啊、魚粉啊這種。那裡有魚粉、有穀粉。有,那裡有魚粉。添加物。豬用了乙型授體素。是什麼時候吃?豬沒有。這個你在內行喔。對。豬要吃整粒啦。"},{"start":24740.523,"end":24762.031,"text":"第一大家平均六個月左右啦六個月左右就是到六個月大概平均100到120公斤的輪延的出租然後出席到八月要七個月差不多要六個月要六個月對我知道出席之後要做有往事"},{"start":24770.991,"end":24794.27,"text":"以行授體數是什麼時候添加?以行授體數的時候是豬已經到了快速成長期以後,他在換肉率最高的時候,過去在美國我們得到的資訊因為台灣本身沒有在用以行授體數,但是在國外的時候都是在換肉率最快的時候。所以有萊克多巴胺有授肉精的豬肉基本上是不是身分比較小?"},{"start":24795.794,"end":24797.095,"text":"我跟你說齁,大概在最後一個月到40天,那...也沒有換肉啦。"},{"start":24826.22,"end":24829.382,"text":"委員長你說排除法所以不排除"},{"start":24858.137,"end":24858.537,"text":"臺中市檢驗實驗室"},{"start":24888.442,"end":24899.245,"text":"沒有受到汙染。我這樣說會不會受到汙染?我感覺這是你自己的說法啦。這很簡單啊。你們說的規定就說什麼?治療不會有汙染,市場不會有汙染,所以都在有汙染,所以應該就是實驗室汙染。你用這樣擺脫,我告訴你嘛。"},{"start":24916.05,"end":24924.294,"text":"埃中的實驗室他就同時採集了40張碼,不是同一批檢驗,不是同一批檢驗,不是同一批檢驗,不是同一批檢驗,不是同一批檢驗,不是同一批檢驗"},{"start":24939.26,"end":24941.242,"text":"師傅透露就是只有在實驗室污染"},{"start":24965.401,"end":24965.421,"text":"對阿!"},{"start":24977.333,"end":24993.308,"text":"臨時提案的你有沒有人?我告訴你臺灣臨時提案的東西奇奇怪怪的大家也有?沒有人臨時提案四部特樓啦。你知道四部特樓進口多少?四部特樓跟進口789迷你咕咾是多少?連一公克都沒有喔!一公克都沒有啊!平均二十四個時間尺!請問每一個時間尺有多少?"},{"start":25001.536,"end":25026.888,"text":"不能合成 不准換賣 不准使用 不准合成 不准合成 表示沒有人合成嘛我向委員報告齁 因為西部退羅在其他的國家也是沒有人在用的沒有人在用的話就不可能去做走私 我們自己來用沒有人在用 現在嚇壞了 你看我整個都要退後不講話 不要這樣啦沒有 真的是 主要是沒在用我也是用很久了還要跟你討論啊 是啊 對不對所以"},{"start":25033.355,"end":25055.385,"text":"我跟您講今天沒有人要任何人負責,討告未了。第一個,臺中室宴出包括本黨所有的委員,沒有一個叫什麼人要下台,沒有。我沒有要叫人下台,我沒有要叫人下台。整個臺黨好棒棒,臺黨好棒棒。"},{"start":25060.642,"end":25076.291,"text":"其實你們可以說什麼?你們可以說因為民眾對台糖信賴所以租價拍賣還有92塊、93塊對不對?可以這樣說的嗎?我只是在說本身的地貿在幾年前的年齡是90點多再來,你就是說因為你們還有補充說因為鄉親對台糖信賴嘛,好來現在落到幾塊你知不知道?"},{"start":25088.804,"end":25107.451,"text":"八十六點四平均這幾天幾年多?這兩天有到八十二月你知不知道?有到八十三現在算這兩天大洶洶對台湯不信賴就對了沒有這兩天落去是年節之後的買氣下降在打水的時候當然有時候每次委員講就沒講你對他們對他們沒關係我剛才也是這樣講喔?我剛才有在跟你們聽啦喔 你看"},{"start":25117.895,"end":25126.68,"text":"阿放大一點,右上角這個齁,這張圖案是這樣齁,這張圖案是7個月以後,2023年的6月7日屠宰。 幾年喔?幾年的六月七一台的。 因為這台齁,跟我們蔡奇亞的溫體珠不一樣,那溫體珠呢,它的價格比較好。"},{"start":25144.909,"end":25146.429,"text":"我一再回來我血本無歸嘛"},{"start":25175.151,"end":25203.733,"text":"所以他75天也認了也要被拍嘛。所以一般這兩棟屠宰場大概會比這個牌價,第一個兩塊錢,你體型差一點,皮啦,我們在吃的三層,皮差一點,我都收啦,因為他可以加工。這塊是梅花肉,照你說是蠻不錯吃的啦。"},{"start":25204.721,"end":25234.022,"text":"可是6月7號屠宰他6月8號大分切就是說比較好切啦因為機械切的不是人工切的他把它動到要結冰大概動到一度或零度啦再分切大塊結果他出品出品出品"},{"start":25235.242,"end":25238.666,"text":"那你怎麼能保證這6個月裡面沒有被汙染?"},{"start":25249.974,"end":25276.894,"text":"委員請問西部特樓在什麼地方?就是在實驗室啊。實驗室以外就沒有西部特樓,那要怎麼去污染?這是很簡單的理論嘛。污染物就是說污染物在哪裡?污染才有可能。如果檢測官像你這樣,破案一天破沒兩件。假如今天是出了人命,檢察官稱辦以後就不是這種態度。我請問你,你認為我請問你?"},{"start":25280.097,"end":25300.135,"text":"台中市檢驗這個賣場他從檢驗那一天推算到上架這幾天我請問你們的單位有沒有任何一個單位去調錄影帶調那個賣場的錄影帶去審視說這一批肉過程這幾天上架以後都沒有被人家污染到"},{"start":25301.124,"end":25319.548,"text":"我認為這個整批肉都是同一個飼養場同一個飼料養的同一群的豬所以我們就會有叫做同批嘛所以同批我們有回收檢驗啊我檢驗都沒有啊你如果說有所有這裡吃一倍的東西都一定有質量性啊"},{"start":25326.172,"end":25330.505,"text":"在這個冰櫃拿出來檢驗的嘛齁,他抽檢嘛對不對,抽檢一二嘛,一二而已啊"},{"start":25335.636,"end":25359.687,"text":"我現在要跟你講就是說,你是不是應該去審視這個過程,他上架第三天被抽檢,這三天裡面你有去找那間六年大,看這個病床有用污染到嗎?有啦你有去找嗎?有啦,有抓啊有人當手嗎?沒看到啊基本上沒有嘛,那這樣為什麼你,所以因為這樣你大膽斷定"},{"start":25362.848,"end":25373.031,"text":"實驗室污染所以說委員,我講一下可以嗎?你現在設下來的工一棵是2900多嘛,你講的嘛,裡面喔,特地都沒有喔,只有存一個屋,那個去賣的時候沒什麼問題喔,你賣到時間不適宜喔,所以變成屋,公務人員是這樣嘛,這是屬實"},{"start":25389.772,"end":25396.059,"text":"臺灣規定臨檢出嘛是啊我走到的時候我敢可以不要發布你告訴我"},{"start":25396.867,"end":25406.013,"text":"當然不行,但是我發佈嘛,那現在一樣嘛,那辣椒現在蘇東風染到這幾個縣市發佈不算都有事。你的檢驗要有正確嘛,我剛才講過就是說當我們檢驗實在極低量的時候,要重複檢驗嘛。幾年了齁,你都算開26年。"},{"start":25419.121,"end":25434.923,"text":"對。對。對。對。"},{"start":25435.003,"end":25449.672,"text":"每一個官司人體檢出來,我都很信任他,但是每一個官司檢出來,都已經檢出,都沒有檢出,只有自己檢出而已啦。我要跟你講的就是,本來自己檢去啦,現在只有自己檢出啦。你以為我們都嚴肅面對嗎?對喔,我們都很嚴肅面對。今天你第一輪,這幾天你每天打電話說什麼,打不來,我告訴你今天全八十二三啦。"},{"start":25466.513,"end":25491.859,"text":"他們的身分要差不多80塊。成本啦齁。這個稍微、稍微處理就要得了解了。所以說那消息是不是要很謹慎的來檢查、很仔細的來公佈。不必做沒有必要的指控嘛。對阿但是,很簡單,就是這樣會不會造成不必要的恐慌,不會使得租價下降啊。所以檢驗正確很重要。檢驗正確很重要。"},{"start":25495.851,"end":25503.498,"text":"國民選拔在我們所有檢過的罷聘裡面都沒有目前沒有判有這個異性授體數碼。"},{"start":25534.103,"end":25550.61,"text":"謝謝謝委員榮介。接下來我們請登記第10位吳委員配議。請質詢。我請行政院院長。請行政院陳院長備詢。"},{"start":25558.632,"end":25585.14,"text":"委員恭喜你院長好,我接續剛剛前面委員的發言我想本會多數的委員包括我吳佩奕包括我們會議主席韓國瑜院長在內我們都不敢自稱我們是食安的專家但是依照我們的法定職權我們可不可以站在這裡來質詢我們政府對食安的管理當然是可以而且必要"},{"start":25585.796,"end":25607.513,"text":"沒有錯,但是我們質詢應該本於什麼呢?我們應該要依法依照我們對公務機關、實務、公共行政的了解依照公共行政的辦法來提出我們的質疑目的是在於我們希望可以釐清過程目的是在於我們希望可以讓我們政府的運作每一次的執行可以更加的進步改善"},{"start":25608.554,"end":25619.949,"text":"所以說剛剛前面有委員提到說在我們這一次臺中傳出天選之肉在實驗室裡面有驗出這麼一盒的豬肉含有西布特羅"},{"start":25621.141,"end":25643.058,"text":"那我們的中央包括農業部包括衛福部等等的趕快來進行抽驗同批次抽驗不同批次抽驗等等我們都去做了剛前面有委員說即便在同批次肉品的抽驗當中因為我們只抽驗出3%是沒有未檢出的"},{"start":25643.899,"end":25660.306,"text":"那就代表有可能剩下的97%那可能是有問題的我想要請問院長基於您過去對於科學背景的了解剛剛這樣子的陳述符不符合我們對科學調研的理解呢?"},{"start":25661.106,"end":25681.003,"text":"這個當然不符合嘛因為這個同批次通常在食品食安的調查就是同批次檢驗出來如果你有一個樣本有最好照其他的同一批但是同批次都沒有的時候那就是表示是安全的嘛所以他的這樣的推論是不合理的啦"},{"start":25681.667,"end":25704.654,"text":"沒有錯其實過去我在臺北市議會擔任市議員按照我對於我們政府機關相關的檢驗辦法的了解我們臺北市政府衛生局做食安檢驗的時候我們向來也是做抽驗不只是食安例如說我們的公安消防的檢查也是做抽檢這個道理其實很簡單因為我們有科學的依據"},{"start":25705.734,"end":25712.746,"text":"按照抽樣的辦法告訴我們只要我們做了抽檢我們能夠對結果能夠得出相關的推論因為倘若我們認為所有的檢查"},{"start":25716.496,"end":25743.011,"text":"都要竹科檢查都要豬肉普篩這個政府和一個政府機關不管是中央政府還是地方政府都不可能有辦法來運行我們每天就在檢查就好我們還需要執法單位嗎我們還需要行政單位嗎所以呢這個不管是按照科學的理解還是我們對於行政部門的理解剛剛這個上述的陳述方法都是不符合現實的那但是我還是想要來釐清喔"},{"start":25744.692,"end":25768.945,"text":"因為我們對科學的理解其實不只是主觀我們想怎麼樣就怎麼樣我讀過一本書這本書裡面提到幾句話說人類我們擁有能夠探索未知與思辨的頭腦每當一不尋常的事情發生時我們常會思索發生的原因是什麼我們要了解因果關係探究問題發生的原因"},{"start":25770.686,"end":25791.235,"text":"是解決問題的先決條件請問院長這一本書你有沒有讀過這是我寫的因果螺旋對這是因果螺旋所以因果關係判定很重要所以我相信陳建仁院士跟陳建仁院長對於科學都會有相當的注重台中檢驗出這麼一盒"},{"start":25792.588,"end":25808.695,"text":"主柔當然是一件不尋常的事情今天在本會裡面很多的討論是關於當台中市政府2月2號對外發布這個訊息的時候這個時間點究竟是太快太急倉促了還是"},{"start":25809.753,"end":25836.576,"text":"太慢了我個人認為這個時間點是慢了因為事實上根據我們後續得到的資料台中市政府第一次檢驗出這一盒豬肉裡面含有西部特羅微量的時間是在1月15號請問在1月15號到2月2號台中市政府對外發布訊息之前我們中央有沒有收到任何來自台中市政府的資訊"},{"start":25838.7,"end":25854.306,"text":"有沒有來請我們做復驗?有沒有來對我們進行通報?我們中間是完全沒有得到相關資訊的。但是事實上根據我們現在食安相關的法規確實對地方政府驗出來"},{"start":25856.108,"end":25881.883,"text":"這個不該檢驗出的東西的時候的通報我們目前沒有明確規範的SOP所以我認為這一點是我們未來可以去精進的但是我仍然想要請教因為不同的地方政府的機關可能做法也會不同倘若這件事件是發生在我們中央的機關當你們驗出來有這麼一盒的豬肉裡面含有西部特羅根本不該出現的違禁品的時候請問你們會怎麼做"},{"start":25884.236,"end":25905.472,"text":"跟委員報告其實臺中市政府他自己的自治條例裡面就有當你驗出來的時候24小時之內要先通報通報之後的話我們才有48小時可以去做處理包括這些有風險產品的下降如果在1月15號我們衛福部食藥署收到通報請問你們會怎麼做"},{"start":25907.952,"end":25924.377,"text":"如果是在15號接受到通報的話,第一個我們就有足夠的時間跟這個其他的縣市去採樣其他同批號的東西來再做一次檢驗,double check"},{"start":25925.731,"end":25953.081,"text":"談論一月十五號我們為府部收到通報在二月二號之前我們能不能夠完成同批次不同批次相關的溯源的追查有沒有辦法完成是可能完成的不過部長還是要提醒你你剛提到說臺中的這個自治條例裡面有規範那這個我們讓臺中市議會去對臺中市政府進行問責但是我們中央我們仍然是可以把這個SOP定定的更加精確因為我們希望我們希望這不只是"},{"start":25953.741,"end":25978.075,"text":"這一次的個案可以讓我們記取教訓嗎?這一次發生在台中市政府,未來有可能發生在其他地方政府。我想我們能夠繼續來精進。在我們這段時間的查驗當中,我今天在專案報告裡面有看到,我們目前是相關的檢驗一共是885件,那全部是零檢出,是嗎?這885件能不能再簡述一下包括了哪些的檢驗?"},{"start":25980.374,"end":26008.878,"text":"我跟委員說明就是我們在檢驗的部分大概分為兩個部分一個部分是在畜牧場的豬隻跟飼料的部分那另外一部分是在肉品的部分那整個的一個檢出的部分在前端的養豬場的豬毛豬血豬隻的部分跟飼料的部分大概有大概774件然後因為農業部的部分也抽了同一批的肉品那其他的部分是由衛護部加起來是885的部分"},{"start":26009.258,"end":26030.34,"text":"好,所以我們到養豬場去驗了嗎?對。 驗了沒有?養豬場驗了296件未檢出。對。 豬肉品市場我們驗了480。對,肉品市場是在屠宰階段的時候我們也驗了480。在上市之前也未檢出。同批的肉品驗了4件未檢出。其他送驗肉品13件未檢出。這個還不包括台糖相關自己的檢驗。"},{"start":26031.241,"end":26057.888,"text":"所以我們做了這麼多的檢驗總歸一句話目前為止除了台中市實驗室那一盒肉以外我們有沒有找到另外一塊肉裡面還有希夫特羅沒有目前所有的檢驗告訴我們結果就是這個結果嘛所以我們目前我們的認定其實跟台中市政府盧先生市長認定是雷同的因為盧市長也說這是一個個案這是一個單一的個案但是不代表我們應該要止步於此這個個案"},{"start":26060.225,"end":26080.319,"text":"一樣是引起國人這麼多的關心所以這個個案的源頭究竟他的因果關係為何為什麼會就這麼的發生這一盒肉裡面檢驗出西布特羅接下來我希望我們一定要把他追究把他調查清楚讓國人可以明白可不可以做到"},{"start":26084.5,"end":26104.651,"text":"整起事件裡面我認為讓我們感到最擔憂的是時安應該是一個科學問題但是時安現在被當作是一個政治事件被當作一個政治在操作為什麼這樣子說我覺得非常的遺憾的是就連我們本院裡面很多的同仁"},{"start":26106.155,"end":26116.632,"text":"也進行不正確資訊的傳播例如說這個林德福委員他說臺中這一盒肉這不可能是單一個案"},{"start":26118.951,"end":26147.105,"text":"那我不知道它的依據來源是什麼因為目前我們手邊握有所有的根據都告訴我們說這是一個單一案當然科學是有可能被推翻這還叫做科學嘛科學就是假設與檢驗假設與檢驗科學是有可能被推翻的但我們手邊握有多少證據講多少話截至目前為止所有的科學依據包括台中市政府的資料都告訴我們說這是一個個案"},{"start":26147.785,"end":26161.222,"text":"所以我覺得非常的遺憾我們都可以立委都可以做評論但不應該散佈錯誤的資訊再來非常遺憾的臺中市的羅廷維委員他直接的在網路上面直播說這個飼料是有問題的要去追查飼料廠請問飼料我們有沒有查"},{"start":26167.841,"end":26172.245,"text":"事料有查。查驗的結果是什麼?目前我們手邊所有的科學資料也告訴我們事料並沒有查出有問題。但是卻有立法委員、本會成員公開的在網路上這樣子去說。"},{"start":26187.841,"end":26204.667,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":26204.807,"end":26225.158,"text":"讓我們感到非常的遺憾林北好友這一個網路賬號事實上他是一個真人過去就常常的對本土農業做出不實的指控把食安拿來做政治操作造成社會的恐慌結果後來檢調查下去的發現原來他是一個騙子"},{"start":26227.281,"end":26238.538,"text":"甚至進行的自導自演但是這個過程當中對於我們本土農業對整個社會的信任感都已經造成了其實不可逆的傷害所以"},{"start":26240.538,"end":26269.879,"text":"我非常的希望我們這一次一定要把事情查清楚那另外我希望我們行政院要勇敢的站出來澄清因為我知道在上一次這個單一的事件裡面院長你也被現在我們本會的成員羅志強委員當時去告發你那還好法院最後釐清了真相不只是還給你一個公道是還給真相一個公道對真相最重要所以我希望我們行政院還是要勇敢的"},{"start":26270.942,"end":26286.875,"text":"出面的來澄清不是為你們辯護而是為事實辯護事實是什麼我們就應該要清楚的來說明剛剛我講到這個單一的事件為什麼我說非常的遺憾因為我當時也是臺北市議會的成員因為這個事件"},{"start":26290.899,"end":26317.161,"text":"有很多錯誤的資訊在社會上面流傳然後呢非常的遺憾有我們的公職人員我們的政治人物拿來做政治操作以至於當時的台北市政府看不住壓力讓我們學校裡面我們的小學生有半年的時間是吃不到蛋的我們的小學生在學校裡面有半年的時間營養午餐是沒有辦法吃到蛋餅的"},{"start":26317.793,"end":26338.447,"text":"但是事後我們投的查驗臺北市政府的查驗通通結果通通都是合格的沒有一個查驗是不合格臺北市政府的市長蔣萬市長大家都知道這跟我們是不同黨派但是事實不會因為顏色的不同"},{"start":26339.67,"end":26365.009,"text":"而轉彎所以我非常的希望我們可以把事情查明清楚並且我們要勇敢的為自己捍衛那所以呢我也要提醒這個院長如果剛講到這兩件事情我們的食安的成果裡面有一項的預算來源是不是來自於我們前瞻基礎建設預算我們的前瞻預算裡面關於食安建設是多少經費"},{"start":26366.942,"end":26369.844,"text":"前三期包括未執行的加總起來大概是至少有40億"},{"start":26385.354,"end":26385.574,"text":"院長我說的你認同嗎?"},{"start":26413.016,"end":26429.551,"text":"完全贊同所以政府實際上在這八年來做很多但是過去我們看到現在口口聲聲說要捍衛食安立場的委員當我們當年要提出前瞻基礎建設預算的時候他們在這裡大力的阻擋甚至不惜丟水球"},{"start":26431.343,"end":26431.783,"text":"好,我們來繼續努力。好,謝謝。"},{"start":26468.708,"end":26475.596,"text":"謝謝吳委員配意的質詢。跟議會報告我們現在休息10分鐘。好,現在休息。"},{"start":27157.816,"end":27158.376,"text":"報告院會我們現在繼續開會請王委員育敏質詢"},{"start":27170.064,"end":27173.891,"text":"謝謝韓院長。是不是我們可以請陳院長上台。請陳院長備詢。"},{"start":27180.478,"end":27202.069,"text":"王委員好,恭喜你當選立委。好,謝謝院長。院長我們今天是要用科學的方式而且很客觀的來探討這個民進黨執政8年這個食安的問題。那這個封面叫做總檢討報告。我請教院長,整個報告我看總檢討報告8年只有9頁,但是我看不到檢討。"},{"start":27204.563,"end":27224.268,"text":"這通篇裡面沒有任何的檢討耶但是卻對馬政府時期提了非常多的食安事件這個有點離題了吧院長我有檢討我有說我們未來要怎麼精進但是通常食安是不斷的精進那我們要看我們在過去的8年在檢討過去8年檢討了什麼可不可以院長告訴本席"},{"start":27227.549,"end":27243.97,"text":"剛才我不是在我的報告如果詳細看我們有兩件還是系統性的問題我在文章裡面有寫但是呢這個兩件系統性的問題我們要來比較說到底有沒有所進步我們要看有沒有進步所以我們就比較前8年的情況"},{"start":27245.247,"end":27245.507,"text":"委員我可以講一下"},{"start":27262.682,"end":27263.263,"text":"馬總統說也有牛肉"},{"start":27286.061,"end":27286.321,"text":"﹗另外一個﹗"},{"start":27303.384,"end":27318.798,"text":"經用的國派銳從禁用變成是開放這個本席現在是在告訴你所以請院長先不要插話第一個就是源頭的部分破功你從源頭的管控變成源頭的開放另外一個的破功是什麼"},{"start":27319.378,"end":27335.582,"text":"加強查驗的部分也破空包括這個雞蛋吩咐你的事件我們可以看到超標這個當時也是一個很重大的食安事件另外還有去年我們看到美豬進來之後改標洗產地這個問題也非常的嚴重還有現在的蘇丹紅"},{"start":27340.683,"end":27366.525,"text":"正在燒的蘇丹紅這是你邊境查驗沒有查出來從源頭這邊沒有守住然後讓他放進來這個問題也是非常的嚴重還有今天很多人提到的臺中驗出來有一包臺場的豬肉含有瘦肉精但是呢我們現在整個行政系統包括民進黨的委員在打擊的是誰是第一線的食安人員"},{"start":27367.225,"end":27368.485,"text":"我可以回答嗎?我可以回答嗎?"},{"start":27395.513,"end":27397.114,"text":"跟院士報告一下,跟王委員報告一下,我們現在這個專案報告"},{"start":27416.167,"end":27429.251,"text":"所以是官員、委員共同使用這許大時15分鐘。所以我也可以回答啊。所以現在我還有問題要問你啊。我問你的時候你可以回答好不好?來接下來本席問你喔本席問你我們每週116年我們進口多少的美國豬肉?院長請回答本席的問題"},{"start":27440.655,"end":27467.649,"text":"一百一十二年進口多少美國豬肉?一百一十二年進口多少美國豬肉你知道嗎?一點一五萬噸啊。多少?一點一五萬噸。是。換算成是我們台灣的豬的話你知道大概有幾頭豬嗎?我不太清楚。這個不是我的專業。大概有九萬多頭。那我就問你這一些豬肉都到哪裡去了?這個豬肉當然就是"},{"start":27470.706,"end":27474.068,"text":"昨年就是消極會。消極會去年他自己在市面上查了289件他去抽這些所有的加工品沒有一件標美珠"},{"start":27501.642,"end":27526.515,"text":"沒有就沒有沒有就沒有沒有就沒有你知道我們現在我剛已經講過你進口的美豬的數量是高達一千多萬公斤等同是九萬多頭豬這樣的數量結果在我們的市面上沒有一件我們的加工品"},{"start":27527.535,"end":27553.428,"text":"有寫豬肉標示豬肉是美豬這合理嗎?這合理嗎?更別忘了去年的10月爆發出來的就是把美豬都改成什麼?標加拿大豬已經被查出來了那這件事情在去年10月這麼嚴重的時候那個我問一下這個部長你說要去改善這樣的情況現在改善了多少?"},{"start":27554.989,"end":27583.471,"text":"當時開放美豬進來行政院信誓旦旦清楚標示這個是你們管制的原則結果現在市面上完全看不到美豬那清楚標示跑去哪裡了?那個當然消極會去查的只不過其中一部分那他沒有查到的話就是他沒有查到他其他的部分當然有因為我們有這個輸入之後的"},{"start":27583.911,"end":27584.851,"text":"我知道說這個有這個來追蹤他的流向"},{"start":27612.962,"end":27622.147,"text":"但是到哪裡去我不會背起來。大致的你都沒有掌握,譬如說變成是加工品啊還是是什麼樣的產品。不可能背這種東西啦好不好。"},{"start":27626.187,"end":27649.098,"text":"美豬進來它會有不同的銷售的管道,它的管道五花八門,你要一個部會所長去把它進場。你總舉得出幾個類型吧?比如說去做水餃、做豆丸、做肉包還是去進到哪一個系統?我想我跟委員先說明一下,就是說整個豬肉的進口裡面,那美國豬肉大概占比是大概12,大部分的豬肉"},{"start":27649.738,"end":27653.762,"text":"現在目前進口因為國人習慣先食的肉的部分都是溫體豬肉比較多一點那大概八成大概有七成的豬肉都是用溫體的方式"},{"start":27673.32,"end":27690.688,"text":"那其他的是加工品那加工品的部分都到加工品區了大概大部分的進口豬肉都到加工的一個系統那現在改標的問題有沒有很嚴重你的意思是說美豬都進到加工系統但是按照我們的食安法進到加工系統你的原料還是要標示是美豬"},{"start":27691.708,"end":27697.532,"text":"那為什麼消基會抽到的樣品裡面很多加工品還是看不到美珠這兩個?那你可不可以提供本席就是有標示美珠的這些產品到底在哪裡?"},{"start":27715.403,"end":27740.172,"text":"還有本席要求剛剛部長說你既然都掌握所有流向我要知道這些流向到哪裡然後是不是還有繼續改標標識不實的問題這個是食安國人非常關注的那去年10月才爆發有嚴重的改標把美豬都改成加拿大那今年到底情況是不是還是一樣還是在你的稽查之後已經有改善本席要一個完整的報告接下來是我們主動去偵測出來的"},{"start":27745.035,"end":27749.7,"text":"改標就是改標嗎?不管是主動偵測出來,因為你當時承諾民眾就是要積極主動去發現有這樣的錯誤。那業者改標是業者的錯誤。第二個蘇丹紅的問題"},{"start":27761.614,"end":27762.335,"text":"目前有21家進口的是這有問題的產品。"},{"start":27785.829,"end":27800.676,"text":"那所以我們這21天通通都已經禁止進口3個月那已經過來的因為之前的話又沒有百分之百抽屁的所以那些部分我們現在正在後續再解釋"},{"start":27802.737,"end":27819.13,"text":"只查半年只查到半年為什麼只設定這半年如果過去只有50%的抽驗以現在看起來這個大量失控的情況還有更多可能是不合格在市面上流竄你們為什麼目前只清查近半年172批還會再往前追查嗎"},{"start":27820.391,"end":27839.771,"text":"我們會繼續追查好本期要求要繼續追查因為這個不單純這個表示他有大量其實都是含有致癌物的蘇丹紅已經大量進到臺灣裡面這個實案事件我也要求你們必須要徹查清楚另外一個今天很多人提到的臺中的這個實案事件"},{"start":27840.532,"end":27868.458,"text":"院長你是聖騎士也是中研院院士還擔任過中研院的副院長但我剛剛在聽到你在答覆民進黨委員的時候你是先射箭再劃靶你已經心中有心證了你就是認定這件事情就是實驗室污染是不是我可以回答給我完整的時間你有沒有認定這是實驗室污染是不是你剛剛的答案本席聽起來就是這樣"},{"start":27869.561,"end":27887.502,"text":"現在我們所有的肉品檢驗不管是在飼養場、屠宰場或者是賣場都沒有檢驗出來西部特羅而西部特羅進口以後只分布在24家的實驗室而且所有的檢驗"},{"start":27888.923,"end":27889.443,"text":"現場搞我糾正你喔"},{"start":27909.378,"end":27926.094,"text":"同一批的豬肉裡面你知道嗎台中這邊300多公斤裡面當他們要再次回到福利社去抽的時候他們通通都已經賣光了他們已經賣完了所以他的這一批裡面你這樣子的推論會不會太大膽"},{"start":27926.815,"end":27936.059,"text":"我們有履歷溯源所以我們可以知道哪一個是同一批所以這一個很重要的臺中市政府在檢驗過來了以後這一個可能性所排除掉其他可能汙染的來源以後我們知道說就是臺中市政府實驗室的這一塊豬肉測得出來有西部特柔那請問這個西部特柔從哪裡來"},{"start":27954.286,"end":27978.826,"text":"你如果是科學家你一定要知道2月6號、2月19號中央復驗還有審查實驗室已經認證,流程如果沒有問題,流程是不是沒有問題?檢驗的流程是不是沒有問題?部長你回答。上架之後是沒有問題,但是上架之前我們不知道。你說檢驗的流程沒有問題,我在問你實驗室檢驗流程有沒有問題?"},{"start":27980.037,"end":27989.125,"text":"二月六號說沒有問題,你現在要改口嗎?上架之後沒有問題,所以我那時候就要講前處理要開始查。"},{"start":27990.256,"end":28013.819,"text":"全處理要開始擦了是那現在真相未明的情況院長你急於定調一定就是實驗室污染我只問你這樣子對第一線實案人員公平嗎?科學的證據專家學者會議開完了嗎?還沒開完結論出來了嗎?還沒有但是我們的行政院院長今天在立法院回復"},{"start":28015.28,"end":28021.203,"text":"排除了所有的懶人、討論媒體你看今天的排除法是怎麼做的?這是邏輯,這是科學的推論這是邏輯與科學的推論當然,專家會議要去看實驗室哪一個地方出現問題才會檢驗出來"},{"start":28039.412,"end":28046.615,"text":"我沒有貼標籤是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法而且最後我讓院長看一下食安人員的眼淚"},{"start":28066.505,"end":28082.248,"text":"我這張圖要告訴院長,施安人員查緝施安中央地方一條心。今天不應該是回過頭去打擊施安人員的事情。如果我是這樣子,我完全不同意的打法。我們中央跟地方是合作的。你就是故意挑撥離間。謝謝"},{"start":28107.427,"end":28125.59,"text":"謝謝王委員、玉敏的質詢。再一次跟院會報告,這次是專案的、實案問題的報告,採用疾問擠答,要拜託委員跟官員之間互相尊重,共同遵守相關質詢規定,再次感謝大家。"},{"start":28127.096,"end":28130.86,"text":"接下來我們請何委員心存質詢謝謝謝謝院長我們請陳建仁院長也請我們農業部部長也請衛生福利部部長"},{"start":28152.293,"end":28178.448,"text":"請陳院長及相關部會首長備詢。我相信我們不管中央地方我們都非常肯定也非常心疼也心存感恩謝謝第一線上食安的所有的稽查人員所以剛剛我聽到院長能夠義正嚴實的"},{"start":28180.009,"end":28203.611,"text":"第一個為了維護這些稽查人員的尊嚴我們肯定他為了維護這些稽查人員我們感謝他的辛苦院長的態度是對的因為我們不能接受有人類似挑撥離間的說法這是剛剛院長所講我們肯定第一線稽查人員的辛苦我們完全肯定他們也跟他們一起合作"},{"start":28204.008,"end":28226.158,"text":"我們一起合作嘛因為我們只有一個目標就是守護國人的食安所以在肯定第一線的稽查人員的時候我們真的知道他們辛苦過年的時候還不斷的在加班稽查但是同樣的就是為了食安我們必須要接受科學的驗證"},{"start":28227.378,"end":28245.191,"text":"因為院長還有所有的食安機場人員所有的專業人員也都知道食安是科學的我們科學的驗證是大家必須要有用專業去面對所以真的不要"},{"start":28246.431,"end":28264.297,"text":"用一些情緒性的或者是一些不夠科學證據不是那麼充分的情況之下我覺得今天有很多的委員的一個發言都沒有讓院長好好的說清楚我覺得實案再講一次第一個中央地方只有一個目標維護國人的實案"},{"start":28266.418,"end":28289.179,"text":"第二個要維護食安只要一旦有相關類似食安事件的發生的時候溯源真相讓人民安心這個才是重點嗎院長同不同意我完全同意確實這個整個食安我們中央跟地方密切合作而食安人員相當的辛勞那這一個事件是台中市在做決策的時候"},{"start":28290.44,"end":28296.724,"text":"應該要更加的作援我剛才也早上也曾經講過因為他檢驗的濃度相當的低而且只有一個樣本"},{"start":28297.492,"end":28323.165,"text":"所以應該要在做決策的時候應該更謹慎一點來避免恐慌。舉個例子像豬籠或者是台糖就因此而有很大的損失。所以院長我們再來講一下你剛剛講的我們食安五環這是我們2016執政之後勇於面對積極的去建立這樣的食安五環的一個制度。好那針對剛剛這個案件所謂大家在關心台糖梅花肉事件就如同剛剛院長你講的"},{"start":28325.111,"end":28346.165,"text":"台中市政府到底他檢驗了之後他在這個所謂的從飼養、屠宰、分裝到市場上、市面上這每一個環節院長你知道台中市政府在通報的時候有沒有告訴中央說這些他都有去檢驗過嗎?沒有"},{"start":28349.122,"end":28350.503,"text":"對,確實當時只是公布說臺黨的一塊豬肉驗出來,就只有這樣。"},{"start":28370.672,"end":28395.095,"text":"沒有任何的查核沒有任何查核所以今天我們事實上應該給院長時間而且我看院長從早上到現在不斷的在告訴國人不斷的在告訴各位委員說我們中央一旦知道2月2號收到通報之後我們趕快去溯源我們去驗飼料飼料那邊沒有我們也去驗屠宰分莊有沒有也說沒有"},{"start":28395.475,"end":28410.869,"text":"那甚至呢我們要求跟各地方政府聯手稽查我們希望臺堂這個同批的肉品裡面我們抽樣的檢查到現在剛剛我們收到的報告是800多件將近900件"},{"start":28412.461,"end":28428.886,"text":"是零檢出的對不對院長對完全檢不出來所以我就要請教院長這個就是社會的質疑嘛為什麼台中市政府1月15號抽檢2月2號公布而這中間半個多月兩個禮拜的時間"},{"start":28431.047,"end":28450.729,"text":"剛剛我們聽到院長說中央不知道臺中市政府到底有沒有去溯源比如說去抽驗飼料比如說去看這個屠宰的這個分莊的一個場域有沒有再去市面上去抽臺糖這一個梅花肉同一批的肉品"},{"start":28451.81,"end":28464.649,"text":"好像到目前為止我們都沒有看到臺中市政府有交代那這半個多月的時間院長你覺得我們第一個臺中市政府沒有讓臺堂申請復驗這個程序"},{"start":28466.932,"end":28495.276,"text":"第二個也沒讓中央知道那他相關復驗的就是說他從溯源的這個相關復驗的檢驗程序他也都沒有清楚交代那院長這件事給我們什麼啟示我們中央地方應該還要怎麼精進讓食安能夠更安全更讓人民放心我想在這整個的過程當中我們可以發現齁在臺中市政府這個檢驗齁他為什麼會拖這麼多時間呢說實在話他因為他只有採了一個樣品"},{"start":28496.247,"end":28524.3,"text":"那個樣品檢驗出來以後他發現有西部特羅在前面那一段然後他就後來又把那一塊肉再切一塊然後再來做然後又發現那實際上來來去去都是只針對著一塊肉在那邊做檢驗那沒有去想到說同一批的這個豬肉也需要再去採檢那這個檢驗出來的濃度很低的時候他們也沒有去再尋求更多的這一個"},{"start":28525.942,"end":28547.485,"text":"復宗的復驗的部分所以未來在整個的這個程序當中我們會再跟我剛才也答應吳世耀委員我們中央跟地方一起再合作怎麼樣把這個檢驗的過程來SOP做得更完整一點讓地方政府也知道說在公布這個事實之前特別是很低劑量的時候應該要做到什麼的程度"},{"start":28547.885,"end":28572.739,"text":"然後呢也應該要跟這個廠商這邊要有所瞭解以後才來做公佈免得引起不必要的恐慌導致...院長我覺得要更精準的說而是說在我們整個實案的相關的法規或者是實驗抽樣的相關的規範裡面SOP我們中央地方應該要好好的來坐下來檢討面對如何讓它精進因為我不希望有下一次同樣的事情來發生"},{"start":28573.86,"end":28601.937,"text":"但是呢這個精進是為了讓國人安心跟放心也為了要維護其他受影響的比如說豬農比如說肉品市場相關的產業我們也是為了要維護他們的這個權益我覺得這個是要方方面面真的是要仔仔細細的中央地方大家要聯手這個不是在搶攻這個也不是在說食安有英雄主義食安沒有英雄主義"},{"start":28602.677,"end":28617.033,"text":"施安只有團隊的精神,大家一起合作為國人把關,院長同不同意?完全同意,我們要團結一心,中央地方一起合作,還有公司一定要協力,那這樣才能夠把這個施安的部分做到最好。"},{"start":28617.554,"end":28637.68,"text":"所以院長那如果現在以現在目前看到目前還有所有顯現的這個證據還有你們抽驗包括各地方政府都抽驗檢查的結果都是零檢出的情況之下我記得院長在2月20號有說臺中的天選之後這個個案是一個單純的一個個案那盧市長也說這是一個單純的個案"},{"start":28647.202,"end":28656.326,"text":"單純的意思就是說只有一塊豬肉到目前為止只有一塊豬肉檢驗出來有西部特羅而且是只有在台中市這裡檢驗的到那這個是單一個案"},{"start":28659.747,"end":28686.906,"text":"也就是說其他的豬肉都沒有受到影響所以民眾可以放心的使用那我相信臺中市政府也找不到任何的市政要去說這不是單一事件因為他如果是單一事件就很重要了為什麼這個單一事件會發生在臺中市的市政府的檢驗室裡面所以我們需要去了解發生在臺中市政府的檢驗室裡面的原因這也就是為什麼我們的專家委員會"},{"start":28687.882,"end":28708.972,"text":"來特別針對著這個實驗室因為是在這個實驗室裡面檢驗到去看看不同的實驗的這個步驟操作的情況是在哪一個環節出錯因為其他的實驗室都驗不出來就只有他的實驗室驗得出來而且那個實驗室又剛好是去有西部特羅的成分在所以這個本來就是食安"},{"start":28709.752,"end":28728.509,"text":"為了要精進檢驗的方法操作的步驟然後要所有的這個復驗的情況都能夠做得很好所以才會去做這個實驗室的調查那我覺得台中市政府既然他認為是單一的事件這個單一事件是在實驗室他也應該在針對實驗室來做更"},{"start":28730.851,"end":28753.3,"text":"更精確的這個了解也應該要針對實驗室裡面在實驗的過程裡面是不是有哪個環節出錯臺中市政府也必須對這一件事情給個交代就如同我剛剛一開始問院長的其實1月15號到2月2號在中間裡面即使那一塊肉在那個實驗室不管是檢驗了6次7次10次22次那"},{"start":28755.401,"end":28755.421,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":28773.43,"end":28791.96,"text":"為什麼他剪得出來嗎?而且我覺得可能我要再提醒我們中央,剛剛有其他委員一直在指稱國防部在那個臺中福利站那個同批的這個肉品都已經賣出了,好像說那些賣出了就已經流入市面,但是呢?院長"},{"start":28793.462,"end":28814.498,"text":"部長他們都在這裡同批的肉品賣出的那一批的肉品不代表就是跟受到檢驗的那一個實驗室的那一盒梅花豬肉片是同一批的肉品因為我們有溯源制度事實上是要根據他和尚的溯源"},{"start":28815.179,"end":28815.659,"text":"所以我覺得這個要講清楚喔"},{"start":28830.951,"end":28835.312,"text":"我想特別說明一下臺東施政我所取的這40個樣品他是在同一天在不同的地區去取樣"},{"start":28852.396,"end":28870.801,"text":"那針對這個同一批的部分那麼同一批的部分大概只有兩個一個是梅花肉一個是小排的部分所以他的梅花肉這個樣品檢測出來西部特留這個樣品就是那一盒那一塊肉那後續他做檢驗的時候都是在這一塊肉裡面重複去做這些相關的一個檢測"},{"start":28871.761,"end":28888.927,"text":"那基本上在一個比較正常的一個檢測的邏輯上面來如果它的檢測的量是非常低的時候應該去尋求前後批或者是同批的其他不同的透過履歷追溯其他不同的同品項產品再去做確認這樣的話會是會是比較嚴謹的"},{"start":28891.288,"end":28892.069,"text":"是不是才是比較嚴謹的做法"},{"start":28917.999,"end":28944.179,"text":"對,我們未來可能還是要跟地方合作,把這個SOP建立好,像委員所建立的一樣。如果他們檢驗出什麼東西的話,也來通報中央,中央也來幫忙做這個double check,或者更完整的來把這個資料呈現出來。我在請問院長,我剛剛講的1月15號到2月2號,他們兩個禮拜自己在那裡做確認,那沒有通報中央,那我們在相關的法規的SOP上面有沒有其他的規範?"},{"start":28944.96,"end":28949.021,"text":"目前是沒有完整的規範所以我們會在這個部分像委員所建立的話在實驗室操作準則還有通報然後復驗這個部分我們會再來精進"},{"start":28971.852,"end":28999.817,"text":"好那所以我再提醒一次喔很多委員拿了說所謂已經流入市面的什麼那些幾千包的這個肉品可能就是那個破口我覺得這個行政院中央我們基於科學的這個依據我覺得要講清楚這個一定要講清楚不要造成民心的這個不安那個委員的那個委員喔我剛才講的時候有一點點比較講"},{"start":29001.867,"end":29025.218,"text":"講的比較大聲一點那實際上我們所有的食品的抽樣只要樣本數大於30的時候呢實際上它就具有代表性這就是一般的食安檢查的時候就用抽樣來檢查那沒有一個食安的檢查是要做百分之百的這個是不合科學根據的也不合統計學的理論根據的"},{"start":29026.735,"end":29051.616,"text":"所以院長我覺得在面對任何的這個問題的時候我覺得我們要簡單直白讓人家聽得懂的話語來解釋像剛剛我們的一番討論我覺得就會讓人家更清楚的明白說中央是有誠意而且中央是負責任的在維護國人的食安對不對最後10秒我只有兩件事今天受這個影響叫台糖是國營事業"},{"start":29053.217,"end":29060.462,"text":"如果換作其他的私人民間企業可能就撐不住了。這一件事情我覺得應該要有研議。"},{"start":29083.763,"end":29097.951,"text":"謝謝何委員心存的質詢。接下來我們請登記第13號李委員燕秀質詢。謝謝韓院長。我請陳院長。再請陳院長備詢。"},{"start":29107.604,"end":29133.232,"text":"議員午安,恭喜你當選。議員長,您是科學家,您也曾經擔任過衛生署署長。您對於藥證、食安,我相信您也都非常清楚了解。這一次整個臺堂的肉品事件,我覺得造成的是民眾在第一時間聽到的時候是恐慌的,但是整件事情後續的延燒,"},{"start":29134.512,"end":29158.147,"text":"會造成食安人員其實非常的委屈我完全同意啦所以這個檢驗本身就是要很謹慎要有正確的時候才對外國人才不會引起恐慌我相信你對法規也非常清楚我過去長期在胃黃委員會對於整個食安的政策整個過程制定的過程我也給予很多修法的意見我也非常清楚"},{"start":29158.647,"end":29173.798,"text":"但是我相信我們大家都不樂意見到的是最後食安問題變成政治鬥爭的犧牲品這個是我們大家都不樂意見到的當然我也不樂意院長那我就要請問從21號的食安專家會議喔"},{"start":29176.8,"end":29178.221,"text":"施安專家的會議沒有公審的意思"},{"start":29195.02,"end":29220.91,"text":"您是這麼說因為您也不在現場我相信這整個過程你同不同意我說一句話你同不同意我們認為整個稽查人員在稽查的過程當中其實幫民眾把關其實也非常辛苦我們要謝謝他他們也很辛苦我認為您是一個過去我認識的陳院長您是一個有溫度非常溫暖的院長您也是36萬公務人員的院長"},{"start":29224.622,"end":29234.91,"text":"如果臺中處的施安處委員員21號真的有在施安諮詢委員會裡面,掉了眼淚,覺得身為36萬公務員的大院長,"},{"start":29240.092,"end":29262.656,"text":"我會感到不捨,如果他真的掉眼淚,他受到委屈我會不捨,但是我不是在現場,我沒有辦法講,那你說我相信我們在臺上的韓院長一定會拍拍肩膀,加油,我們一起努力,我相信你也應該會如此,不管拍肩膀握手,我覺得臨時36萬公務人員的大家長,七層的機場人員,我會謝謝他。"},{"start":29268.157,"end":29287.38,"text":"院長先讓我講完我相信我們都給予他們最大鼓勵至於未來每一次事件之後我覺得在食安法的修法中央跟地方如何合作我們都應該更明確有一個更標準的SOP好院長我相信你對法規都非常清楚"},{"start":29288.859,"end":29302.873,"text":"無論食安法、食安法的52條也好在整個清查過程當中就我的了解第一時間公告檢查出來不論檢查出來的出院20次、21次、22次根據法規都應該是第一時間公開對不對"},{"start":29309.859,"end":29325.438,"text":"對,但是要檢驗很正確,這個很重要。您認為他檢驗不正確,不管是西庫特羅在地方有檢驗出來,不管他檢驗出來是多少,他如果是不得檢出,他就有公告的義務。要確認檢出的數據是正確的。"},{"start":29329.062,"end":29335.504,"text":"我剛才講的你要檢驗一個樣品如果是極微量的時候那要確定那個極微量是否正確呢就需要再去做同批的檢查"},{"start":29348.487,"end":29370.666,"text":"那因為他所做出來的這個Range呢差了很多嘛所以他的實驗的方法本身是所測出來的值喔同一塊豬肉測出來的值會有那麼大的變異就需要了解說這個實驗的步驟或者實驗出來的結果是不是正確所以他做了22次嘛所以他做了22次後來他送到中央復驗他還是有驗出"},{"start":29377.25,"end":29400.854,"text":"這個檢驗這個申請復驗只有台堂可以就是檢驗出他自己他是業者他只有他自己可以申請復驗這個流程我覺得我們都可以實驗室不可以這樣欸我們做過實驗的我今天如果我自己在做實驗發現我實驗的結果同一個樣本實驗有十幾倍的差異我會自己來檢討實驗有沒有錯這是實驗的基本要求"},{"start":29405.535,"end":29426.102,"text":"我們不要再叫地方做檢驗室了過去我們長期希望地方把檢驗室做好我相信薛部長很清楚所以我們才有全債預算在基層花了11億做檢驗室我們給他們標準配備希望他們來做如果是這樣我建議基察人員不要這麼辛苦地方不要那麼辛苦"},{"start":29426.582,"end":29454.509,"text":"全部都收回來中央來驗沒有這回事為中央到地方我們允許有行政命令允許他們有14天的時間最長14天的時間申請復驗宣布長我講的沒錯吧這14天當中我不是講這一次的事件這14天當中都有任何一個食安事件都有可能如果是真的有問題有可能流入消費者的肚子裡面這都不是我們願意見到的"},{"start":29456.317,"end":29472.538,"text":"如果大家對於地方的檢驗室這麼不信任,警察人員有這麼多的委屈,我覺得應該是收回來中央算了,這不是我的意見,好,院長你聽我講完,你聽我講,我沒有要跟你吵架,我今天是做法論法。"},{"start":29474.761,"end":29487.508,"text":"我們希望每一次的討論讓食安後續的過程接下來如果萬一再有食安的管理事件我們可以更精進中央地方全責我們一起把它處理得更好這是我們的目標 院長時間真的不多"},{"start":29493.912,"end":29513.545,"text":"所有的實驗要公佈以前一定要確認實驗的步驟是正確的嘛那如果你實驗不正確你怎麼公佈呢所以你認為他的實驗的過程不正確就對了其實他自己也有質疑啊因為他自己的檢驗差了十幾倍啊那他為什麼要驗22次"},{"start":29515.586,"end":29530.524,"text":"沒關係,院長,院長,院長,接下來的過程我覺得我們可以更多討論的空間,所以我說如果,就是他因為希伯特羅其實是非常少數的,他們也擔心實驗會有誤差,所以他們才會檢測這麼多次,那"},{"start":29533.047,"end":29533.848,"text":"很辛苦而且我們感謝他們"},{"start":29548.94,"end":29569.706,"text":"他們真的很認真人夠不夠以台北市為例喔這還不包括市場這些還有包括流動攤販等等其實3萬的餐飲跟食品業者只有53個稽查人員還有包括我們最近這幾年我們食安的源頭管理包括我們開放萊豬開放核食"},{"start":29572.307,"end":29598.416,"text":"有更多的專案包括前一陣子進口的日本草莓等等每天有這麼多的專案在做但是我們以台北市來說我們只有53個人力是嚴重的不足所以在過程當中我可以感受到臺中的稽查業者為什麼會在會議上掉眼淚所以我今天其實另外一個重要的議題我認為我們應該中央另外想辦法補人給人"},{"start":29599.216,"end":29604.34,"text":"所以不應該反對前瞻建設,我們有補了26億喔!我們會繼續努力!我們會繼續努力!我們會繼續努力!所以,院長,那我現在問你,你要不要再另外額外給人?"},{"start":29614.187,"end":29643.349,"text":"各縣市你給錢給人啊現在整個的檢驗的這個過程應該怎麼樣來精進我剛才已經答應前面的委員說我們會再來跟中央地方一起來檢討怎麼樣來精進這整個檢驗的過程這個我們會來努力然後瞭解現在的人力的指導我提的啦你就乾脆檢驗以後都直接送中央不要地方了不然的話你對地方有這麼多的問號不信任這不是食安法的規定"},{"start":29644.27,"end":29645.41,"text":"但是食安法不是這樣規定啊"},{"start":29672.722,"end":29696.979,"text":"我說收回法當能做調整啊。 院長,院長,源頭管理沒做好就會累死地方的基層。近8年來,近8年來,近8年來,食安的問題不斷。所以雲林縣做得很好啊,找到了那個紅辣椒的問題啊。院長時間暫停,我如果一直講話院長不聽我講話我怎麼答詢的下去,時間先暫停。"},{"start":29702.076,"end":29730.913,"text":"我們是急問急答啦!專案報告時間再一次跟院會報告跟委員報告一下今天是專案報告也要請官員跟委員之間能夠還是一樣暫時呼籲相互尊重好了我們相互尊重急問急答院長謝謝韓院長我平常也是個很溫和的人陳院長我今天除了要跟你要人力稽查人力"},{"start":29732.363,"end":29741,"text":"我相信這不是太困難的事情給更多的稽查人力我們把食安工作做得更好我相信這點應該能具體承諾吧"},{"start":29742.005,"end":29763.831,"text":"對﹚"},{"start":29764.371,"end":29791.274,"text":"我們有農產品我們有生產履歷但是有一塊我覺得我們可以做得更好包括我們現在有區塊鏈對於整個管理的機制資訊機制從農產到餐桌上那整個成品的過程中我們有可能用一個QR code可以看得更清楚這個都是未來我覺得食品管理的方向"},{"start":29793.576,"end":29816.628,"text":"我們努力朝那個方向來進行我覺得這樣子的討論方式你不要一聽到我質詢就我們兩個一直我覺得這個質詢是沒有辦法讓彼此更進步所以如果院長也同意給人給基層同仁36萬的公務人員更多的鼓勵給我們這些稽查同仁更多的加油打氣給更多的溫暖"},{"start":29818.356,"end":29845.032,"text":"我覺得大家對於食安的進步人民才有機會對於政府我們的答詢對於政府從中央到地方給予更多的肯定臺灣是一個美食王國怎麼樣讓食品的安全讓國際看得到我們管理是很嚴格的所以我才會提出來說稽查人力我們增加我們未來要怎麼樣精進我們食安的機制我們可以進一步再探討只要我們把SOP寫得更清楚"},{"start":29846.629,"end":29873.457,"text":"15天之內未來是不是都15天之內所有的復驗都一定要送進來我指的是所有的都要送進來喔那個薛部長你知道我在講什麼對不對你現在是要求復驗15天都要送那未來是不是15都是15天每一樣都是15天15天是那廠商可以要求但是我們不一定要等那15天要看風險高低"},{"start":29875.41,"end":29897.327,"text":"如果這個東西是風險高的好那我15天對我一個媽媽來說媽媽的角色來說我等不到15天因為任何一天流露到我小孩我家人的肚子裡面我都是會擔心的所以這個就是我們討論啦三天是不是民眾可以接受的"},{"start":29898.665,"end":29915.037,"text":"所以我覺得這個都是政策面的討論你要想清楚再對外交代說明好不好那所以我覺得整起事件我覺得食品安全我還是從頭來說它真的是一個科學問題它是一個民生問題"},{"start":29916.808,"end":29917.009,"text":"﹚發言委員"},{"start":29938.846,"end":29939.146,"text":"很好的建議"},{"start":29960.789,"end":29978.555,"text":"院長我們今天專案報告是過去8年的食安的檢討其實過去8年食安的事件其實也不算少包括過年期間我們的這個蘿蔔我們的白蘿蔔含農藥的事件還有近期稍微先"},{"start":29981.276,"end":30001.929,"text":"我講蘇丹紅的事件雖然業者是在新北但是發現在高雄第一時間也就快速的下架是對不對那無論是在野黨無論是在野我們自己在野黨我們都覺得下架很好啊我們盡速的下架處理那我們中央也沒有任何機遇我們也沒有講說要不要再多檢查看看"},{"start":30004.789,"end":30025.777,"text":"所以我才說不要兩套標準我覺得我們在處理的過程當中我們都把它當成這都是我們不管中央的稽查人員我們地方的稽查人員中央的食藥署我們地方的食安署我們都把它當成我們是同一個團隊在守護民眾的健康不要有太多的不信任"},{"start":30026.397,"end":30046.41,"text":"我們沒有不信任就不會讓民眾覺得說怎麼食安問題變成是一個政治事件我們現在中央跟地方一起合作來做食安已經做了8年食安午飯做得很好不像委員在這裡講的這只是口號治國這是真正實時的踏實在做我們也謝謝我們也謝謝各地方政府的努力"},{"start":30050.293,"end":30072.299,"text":"院長,我只剩下42、41秒。十案五環,過去我們都認為在源頭的管理破了好幾個洞。所以近期我有羅列出來有這麼多戴亞新的機案、芬普尼的雞蛋,還有包括最近的蘇丹紅的蝦尾仙的事件。我們如果做得更快速的話,說不定蝦尾仙會回收得更快,原來36萬包我們只回收9萬包。"},{"start":30073.439,"end":30077.303,"text":"議員長我只能說齁,民眾對於食安的管理是沒有信心的。我只能說沒有信心的。所以你食安武漢破了好幾個洞之後"},{"start":30104.983,"end":30125.116,"text":"好,謝謝李委員燕秀的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第14位王委員定宇質詢。謝謝院長,麻煩陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備詢。謝謝。"},{"start":30136.778,"end":30152.377,"text":"我想食安應該是一個科學問題但是食安如果用太多的政治口水他會變心理恐慌問題所以我們政府面對食安有點像衛生紙衛生紙夠不夠他是經濟問題"},{"start":30154.059,"end":30172.465,"text":"大家都在搶衛生紙心理的恐慌他反而也會造成造就問題所以我盡量不用政治方面來討論下列的事情我先請教一個基本的事情當我們發現有食安的威脅的時候我們發布就是公佈於眾的標準"},{"start":30174.145,"end":30199.254,"text":"是甚麼?因為我們都希望說,這個東西有問題,要趕快讓白社知道,越快越好。但是要求正確,因為它一旦不正確,你發布了就會從科學問題變心理問題。你知道我的意思嗎?它是兩面性。又要快,又要準。所以我第一個請教就是,發現食安威脅的時候,它發布的標準,我們現在有沒有一個一定的標準?"},{"start":30202.515,"end":30225.808,"text":"我們讓薛部長坐著好不好?因為薛部長實力真的還不夠。沒關係啦。兩位都坐著我都可以接受。坐著好了,因為薛委員那個薛部長。時間還在照跑欸。院長我尊重你的才智啊,但你時間還給我照跑這樣不好啦。坐著打沒關係,因為你真的很不舒服的感覺好不好。院長你也請坐一下沒關係。沒關係我可以。反正內容一樣,時間請繼續。"},{"start":30227.329,"end":30229.37,"text":"實案問題到底在什麼標準下該公佈,我們應該有一個標準吧,現在標準是什麼?"},{"start":30249.833,"end":30268.997,"text":"還是在地方政府做第一線地方政府那個是行政程序我講的是標準實驗室做出什麼結果在什麼狀態下要公佈於眾目前的話並沒有一個特定的標準所以還是要看這個布置的風險第一個問題就是我們現在面對又要快又要準"},{"start":30276.598,"end":30276.738,"text":"我下一個問題是"},{"start":30299.635,"end":30319.7,"text":"縱使我們在實驗室我在寫論文控制組對照組我會不會這一個品項這一個單品我驗出來數值可以得到諾貝爾獎哇這數據嚇死人啊我就公佈當然不行要確認是不可以這是科學問題這不是政治問題我現在檢驗一個東西"},{"start":30322.349,"end":30341.459,"text":"他的數據很驚人我不會急著公布在論文上何況會引起大眾恐慌的數據我下一步應該怎麼做我應該在同類型的或同批次的東西再找一些來抽如果都是這樣子我可能發現新物種我可能發現新東西嘛"},{"start":30342.421,"end":30365.168,"text":"那如果我只有這個單一品項數據異常可是同一批次同一物種我現在講的是實驗室都跟他不一樣那我就開始要研究了到底是這個單項有病變還是我的實驗室流程有謬誤那有的還會用轉軸讓結果符合理論那個是不可取啦所以這個才是科學精神嘛對"},{"start":30366.92,"end":30385.655,"text":"我接下來另外問一個也是基本的科學東西我單一一個東西我驗這一次這塊肉驗了22次了我驗一直驗一直驗我驗出這塊肉有西部特羅送到食藥署復驗有西部特羅有什麼稀罕啊你知道意思嗎"},{"start":30386.812,"end":30408.348,"text":"我拿一塊肉原來已經有被汙染了,再拿到實驗室復驗,它還是那一塊肉,沒有來到同批次的對照嘛。那我要問的是,我看報宅我現在要從這邊證實,這一塊肉抽了22次,抽的方法有沒有一樣?"},{"start":30409.448,"end":30409.468,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":30432.834,"end":30445.801,"text":"這就是一次做出來的差異太大了,差十幾倍嘛。對,我們在實驗室齁,如果同一個物件,一個object,如果落差超過35%,這個數據我可不可以寫在論文裡面?"},{"start":30451.174,"end":30467.025,"text":"這個我想這是不正確的啦這是有問題的嘛對不正確的數字我們現在講到這裡我並沒有特別去講是地方的問題中央問題他是一個科學驗證的問題如果食藥署同一塊肉你都驗了22次數據的落差超過35%前後數據高達十幾倍的不一樣作為一個科學實驗人員你馬上腦袋想的是這個數據有問題我不能馬上公佈出去"},{"start":30478.553,"end":30498.431,"text":"因為馬上公佈出去他會從科學問題變心理恐慌問題我完全同意這件事情是這個樣子嘛那一塊肉那一包肉就只有那一包對他確實驗出是基布特羅為什麼有我們待會再研究他驗出之後同一塊同一個同一包肉"},{"start":30499.844,"end":30518.983,"text":"打碎了兩次驗了22次落差10多倍單一數據的落差超過35%這不是民進黨說的算也不是國民黨說的算不是藍綠牌的問題可以去問全台灣所有實驗室不管是台大、成大任何實驗室這樣的數據能不能拿來當作論文的數據何況是拿來公佈於眾"},{"start":30523.447,"end":30549.81,"text":"所以是需要再進一步的所以我第二個問題是怎麼樣的數據可以公佈除了那個數值的PPB以外這個數據的流程對照組控制組橫向的檢驗到怎麼樣的狀況我要最快速度最正確的時候有了這個有威脅公佈於眾大家不要吃不要用這才對嘛那就這個階段的質詢到目前為止"},{"start":30550.979,"end":30579.318,"text":"這一次數據的第一時間公布有沒有符合科學精神因為他的差距很大然後都沒有再double check所以我們剛才才講說怎麼樣找到正確的數字再公布那因為他本身就有很大的range那他到底去挑哪一個數字那就隨著高興挑也不正確所以在當時應該是在做另外一個應該要同一批肉"},{"start":30580.038,"end":30608.077,"text":"同一頭豬同一隻產出來的肉其他部位抽一抽看有沒有才來決定對到底是系統性問題要公佈於眾如果如同盧秀燕市長所說的是個案問題你公佈於眾會產生什麼問題我待會先農業部長有來嘛齁那個陳俊基代部長先上來齁我把問題繼續往下推齁就是說那一包肉按照科學的原則"},{"start":30610.233,"end":30638.21,"text":"他的數據這樣的公佈到底是科學決定還是政治決定我個人打個問號我也不讓院長回答我認為那個決定在科學的公佈上其實是有一定的問題我有關院長跟這個部長最後一個問題要問的是目前經過其實那是毒澱粉之後我們臺南統一企業弄了一個食安辦公室他有經過國際認證嗎"},{"start":30640.219,"end":30666.202,"text":"然後另外SGS是民間的他的食品實驗室也經過國際認證嘛另外我們的這個我們中央單位有一個續產社那個也經過國際認證嘛這三個國際認證然後加上我們地方政府不管國民黨執政民進黨執政的地方政府的實驗室抽驗從所有的肉品"},{"start":30667.492,"end":30692.061,"text":"從豬的血液到毛髮到同批次的產品抽驗到現在萊克多巴胺跟西部特羅有沒有驗出沒有0所以我們幾乎可以斷定就只有台中市食安處的那一包肉有驗出來了而且經過中央食藥署復驗他確實有嘛就只有那一包肉所以盧秀燕市長其實定義的不錯他說這是個案我個人"},{"start":30692.857,"end":30707.779,"text":"對於過年前他講這次個案我表示佩服因為他講個案至少把衝擊降低一點對很多人減少影響那那個薛部長你先回去休息啦好了那個公佈的過程我們希望亡羊補牢就是建構"},{"start":30709.372,"end":30732.139,"text":"發布的標準,特別是經常使用的米麵、澱粉等等,它要多少PPB,然後實驗流程要經過什麼樣的程序,然後確認為系統性問題才應該公佈於眾,否則食安會從科學問題因為隨意的違反科學準則去公佈,它從科學問題變成心理恐慌問題。"},{"start":30733.817,"end":30759.084,"text":"那傷害的人就很多了對確實如果他真的有毒該公佈就公佈該被傷害就被傷害這責務龐大可是如果他根本不是系統性問題只是在實驗室你的超越同一塊肉二十二次結果不一樣落差高達35%以上任何學過基礎生物實驗的人都知道欸這要再看一看沒錯對不對沒錯然後這作為公佈就產生什麼問題呢我要請教農業部"},{"start":30761.096,"end":30781.372,"text":"農部有沒有統計我們農曆春節前本土豬肉的交易量交易產值是多少我想我們在農曆的過去我講過我先不講今年的以往過往的時候大概是在85塊的上下那從80到85之間一斤85塊對一公斤百公斤一公斤85塊一公斤85塊這裡是因為這個事件有沒有波動"},{"start":30786.209,"end":30811.456,"text":"我們在監測的他整個過程裡面吼春節就是2月2號到春節那個收市之前是平均是90.8元90.8元但是春節後以後他有不同的不同的因素讓他的價格現在是86平均是86作為農業部的部長你認為這一次西部特羅的事件從一開始發布到說毒豬肉啊什麼現在證明沒有根本不是系統性的問題"},{"start":30812.316,"end":30830.913,"text":"我們本土豬農因為我看到全國這個養豬協會潘理事長那邊有提到豬農有受損到底有沒有受損的數字我想受損的部分可能還要再去精算因為基本上從批發市場在春節前的價格是90.8元部長如果到現在還沒有精算的話農業部這樣不行喔"},{"start":30832.674,"end":30855.23,"text":"你懂我意思嗎?我知道我今天面對這個事情消費者我要保護是供應者就豬農攤販豬肉販傳統市場我都要保護是而有關豬肉這一塊我若是農家部我一定馬上統計今年的因為價格我不會認為是唯一的指標我把數量縮減價格就服了嘛我的意思說以往春節也許比方說一萬斤"},{"start":30856.391,"end":30869.699,"text":"今年有沒有變成9000斤5000斤然後呢因為這樣的價格或土宅量會被減少這是農業部的責任是你應該統計出來告訴我們說這個消息出來我們今年的本土豬"},{"start":30871.374,"end":30872.834,"text":"對,我們已經持續在跟那個租場的這些做一個統計"},{"start":30899.782,"end":30927.694,"text":"包括它的每一天的批發量大概是2.4萬到2.2萬之間那我們跟去年同期在比較去找出一個去年比較有沒有波動它的波動以價格來講反而比去年高一點但是不能這樣算因為還有成本的問題還有成本的問題還有成本的問題還有供應量的問題所以我剛才說我們現在還在做這樣的一個消息這一年來飼料漲價了不能用價格判斷影響你要算量"},{"start":30929.715,"end":30952.147,"text":"對你們量有沒有波動有沒有算出來對我們現在的量齁從去年大概2.4萬噸齁大概春節期間那我們今年的話大概是2.2萬噸齁要減才會兩千對但是他的每一頭豬的重量齁比去年還高所以整體的重量來講齁我們現在還在處理你這樣子的數據齁因為你在講他回格格齁簡單來說"},{"start":30954.431,"end":30968.698,"text":"一、因為他說單一重量加高所以投訴減少。 是。 重量也減少。那這到底是不是因為這個影響你們去統計。 對。 就是說價格的高低會跟供應量跟飼料成本有關係。 對。 但目前我從你剛才數據聽起來投訴的規價低齁台規價低。 對。 數量有減少。 對。"},{"start":30974.101,"end":30995.221,"text":"總供應的重量數從2.4萬噸降到2.2萬噸數量也有減少,那這個到底是什麼因素導致,我不枉家定論,榮業部應該要給答案。我最後再請教部長,院長如果知道的話就回答了,不知道的話,薛部長你比較先後。台中那一包肉如果現在是唯一的一包肉有西部特羅,"},{"start":30996.22,"end":31016.596,"text":"對。對。"},{"start":31016.736,"end":31039.739,"text":"我們所了解齁他他取樣的時候針對臺糖那一批履歷的那一批齁大概是兩包一包是梅花肉一包是養完還是只有那一包其他沒有OK齁這就其他沒有縱使在國軍供應站副時供應站就那一包肉有那拿回來之後是誰做檢驗的你們有掌握人嗎就裡面的"},{"start":31040.715,"end":31042.977,"text":"因為只有在一個實驗室裡面的一塊肉檢驗得到,所以我們一定要從"},{"start":31074.845,"end":31077.448,"text":"好,謝謝王委員的諮詢,謝謝陳建仁院長,謝謝接下來我們請登記第15號羅委員志強質詢請陳建仁院長麻煩請陳院長備詢"},{"start":31103.542,"end":31103.982,"text":"恭喜你當選理委。"},{"start":31112.628,"end":31133.173,"text":"今天這份報告的主題是民進黨執政8年的食安問題總檢討我看完11頁的報告做一點小小的總結你看認不認同大概意思是說民進黨政府已經改善食安食安的個案偶爾發生但系統性食安問題顯著減少這樣的認知有沒有問題沒有錯確實是這個主軸"},{"start":31136.534,"end":31144.419,"text":"院長是科學家嘛所以科學家講數據事實所以接下來針對過去8年的食安檢討我有幾個問題跟幾項數據來就教於院長首先我想問的第一個問題是"},{"start":31151.755,"end":31175.191,"text":"院長這份報告是八年食安總檢討那你可不可以給大家一個評價你會給你自己給民進黨政府這八年你評價會打幾分臺灣的食安問題呢從這個2016年開始因為在2016年以前有很多的這個系統性的事件那我們就開始了食安五環在中央跟地方的努力之下我覺得有進步相對於2016年以前有大幅度的進步"},{"start":31182.295,"end":31207.068,"text":"就是比201616年之前有大幅度進步這是您的結論那我想請教您第二個問題既然大幅度進步只有偶爾的單一食安個案發生那我想請教您知道二十一世紀兩千年之後二十三年內哪一年的食物中毒人數最多這個我沒有辦法再我告訴你2019年"},{"start":31210.34,"end":31212.85,"text":"食物中途的人數全國有6935人,你知道是誰執政嗎?"},{"start":31217.521,"end":31241.552,"text":"我委員抱歉,食物中毒的原因有很多。沒關係我知道你要跟食安沒有關係,如果食物中毒都跟食安沒有關係讓社會公平。不完全是跟食安有關係。謝謝你承認食安有關係,那你還說你們做得很好。因為食物中毒2019年就民進黨執政,食物中毒人數是歷史的新高,2000年以後。那我就要問您,"},{"start":31243.802,"end":31272.1,"text":"委員這個數字我要再查一下沒關係你可以去查中華民國統計資訊網如果你不相信這個單位的話把它廢掉也可以那接下來我想請教你第三個問題你一直強調蔡政府的食安五環全面加強食安管理我剛剛只講一個年也不公平嘛對不對也許那一年特殊事件你特別高但也許蔡英文八年其實還是比較少啊有沒有可能"},{"start":31274.175,"end":31282.637,"text":"我覺得用食品中毒人數來反映食安不是正確的數字。這個食品中毒人數沒關係你如果這麼執著這件事情你另外再找一天做食品中毒的專案報告還不可以?"},{"start":31297.307,"end":31326.29,"text":"施品中毒的狀況報告施品中毒重不重要吃下去中毒欸你今天西部特羅我們是講致癌可能性吃下去是中毒欸舉親民眾你總懂吧你現在西部特羅這個案子以0.002篇我問你下一個數字好不好下一個數字把政府實習施品中毒的人數多還是蔡政府我告訴你你答不出來我可以理解"},{"start":31328.257,"end":31336.122,"text":"從2008到2015年馬英九政府平均是5074位蔡英文2016到2022平均是5469位數學總統吧院長哪一個數字高"},{"start":31344.907,"end":31365.694,"text":"我剛才就跟你講過沒關係啦我直接告訴你蔡英文的數字就是高啦你如果還要再針對食品中毒的有什麼見解的話我跟你講你在施政報告在你的專案報告都可以講那我就要問各位食品中毒跟致癌物質都是食安問題啊不是嗎"},{"start":31367.398,"end":31374.699,"text":"我問你第四個問題食品中毒人數少的馬政府食安事件叫系統性你食品中毒人數多的蔡政府食安問題叫個案性"},{"start":31396.867,"end":31407.749,"text":"我問你第五個問題我問你第五個問題我問你第五個問題我問你第五個問題請問蔡政府加強稽查檢驗部分大幅提高食品的抽驗件數這是你報告裡面強調的嘛 對不對那我想請問你食品查驗件數馬政府時候多還是蔡政府時候多"},{"start":31426.369,"end":31432.593,"text":"大幅增加喔!大幅增加我告訴你馬政府2008到2015年平均每年723782件蔡英文政府2016年到2022年平均每年511333件72萬跟51萬誰多?"},{"start":31449.67,"end":31471.236,"text":"你現在用的技術不一樣而且呢這個食品安全我不是講total欸食品安全的東西好啦你要繼續跟我講食品中毒不重要我也沒關係啦我接受啦我想請教院長齁食品衛生查驗的不合格率齁逐年下降嘛對不對"},{"start":31472.641,"end":31475.143,"text":"下降了0.68啦但是下降0.68的低數值前朝下降1.13也有功勞吧"},{"start":31496.857,"end":31519.895,"text":"我想齁,你現在舉的這個數字都不是... 院長,你是科學家,給點公道的評價也不會傷你的這個高度啦。沒關係,我都要評價,因為你要...你要去...你要去蔣瑪聖保障你要評價他,給他公道一點難啦,沒關係。這個要看他的範圍有多少有多少...2019年4、2、2000年以後,食品中毒人數最多是民進黨執政。"},{"start":31521.876,"end":31533.468,"text":"馬政府平均每年食品中毒人數比蔡英文政府要少馬政府每年平均查驗食品安全件數是70多萬件比民進黨50幾萬件高你現在跟我講"},{"start":31537.472,"end":31544.917,"text":"你不給馬英九政府一點公道的評價,你要說這個政府做的比你爛。沒關係,我問你下一個問題。您的報告當中說馬英九政府有7次系統性施安問題,對不對?"},{"start":31555.524,"end":31558.986,"text":"我剛剛的問題是什麼?我剛剛的問題是你的報告裡面說嘛政府系統性食安問題有幾件?七件啊?一幾件?兩件啊?來"},{"start":31579.79,"end":31597.062,"text":"2016.2016年6月販賣機奶茶生菌素超標是系統性還是個案?個案啦我知道你啦也沒放在系統性嘛2016年9月調和酒冒充釀製酒是系統還是個案?個案啦你沒有放在你的報告啦"},{"start":31598.443,"end":31613.196,"text":"2016 2016年包括過期的原料製成醬料是系統還是個案?個案啦你沒有放在你的報告啦2016年過期冷凍沒產品是系統還是個案?個案啦"},{"start":31614.057,"end":31625.587,"text":"因為你對食品安全的系統性問題你不懂啊。系統跟個案都有你定義啦你科學家嘛。沒有關係我告訴各位很簡單下一個政府上來喔所有的都認為是個案系統性就是0了沒關係你要再繼續講齁來"},{"start":31639.397,"end":31643.119,"text":"我想請問院長,國內的豬農根據動物藥品管理法,我們的西部特羅檢出的標準是什麼?西部特羅零檢出啊!非常好!"},{"start":31663.456,"end":31671.023,"text":"今天一整天我看你跟徐曉新很熱鬧的交鋒你葉秀很熱鬧的交鋒重點都是一個"},{"start":31672.432,"end":31687.518,"text":"你就認為台中市政府查出了今天非零檢出的西部特羅不該那麼快公佈嗎?因為不科學嘛!你講的嘛!我很認真聽喔!一整個投資的檢體喔!檢驗出來的結果會相重複啦!可以整給你重複講這些大家都聽到了!"},{"start":31696.002,"end":31696.962,"text":"西伯特就是檢出啦"},{"start":31711.411,"end":31714.233,"text":"施安法第5條第一項各主管機關依科學實證建立食品衛生安全監測體系,監測發現有危害食品衛生安全"},{"start":31732.469,"end":31754.597,"text":"之餘的事件發生時應主動查驗並發佈預警或採行必要管理措施。前項主動查驗、發佈預警或採行必要管理措施,包含主管機關應抽樣檢驗、追查來源、產品流向、公佈檢驗結果跟揭露資訊並令食品業者自主檢驗。"},{"start":31756.999,"end":31777.899,"text":"請問食安法第五條有哪一個跟你講說因為驗出來的數值比較低?有哪一個正確可以公佈嗎?一打行政檢驗是否正確一打行政院長來來來倒車一下倒車一下不要擔心啦你科學家"},{"start":31778.439,"end":31790.808,"text":"我沒有否定你的科學論據喔好沒有錯那我問你我跟你講這個法規裡面是不是要正確的檢查才能夠公佈院長你說不是的話那我就沒話講了沒關係正確的檢查才能公佈你寫進條文啊"},{"start":31795.171,"end":31795.552,"text":"委員會報告時間暫停"},{"start":31813.604,"end":31841.968,"text":"今天是我們專案的報告再一次第三次呼籲拜託委員跟官員之間能夠互相尊重共同遵守相關質詢規定時間繼續委員我只是想跟你講當一個實驗室你的法規裡面要公布很重要的一件事情你就是說你尊重我科學嘛那我對說科學的情況就是你檢驗出來是正確的數字才能公布今天那些論點你已經講了15遍了啦"},{"start":31842.148,"end":31845.752,"text":"議員長,我們韓院長講完話我就很尊重你,但是你讓我問問題嘛,只剩2分鐘了,好不好?"},{"start":31863.32,"end":31864.001,"text":"我的意思是說"},{"start":31893.218,"end":31919.689,"text":"院長,食藥署有沒有去檢驗?食藥署有沒有檢驗嗎?告訴我嘛。我們查了同批的結果都沒有檢驗。第二個,你如果真的認為數值太低,就不能立刻公佈寫到法律裡面嘛。公務員依法行政你沒有明確性的法律指導。你想要怎麼做?我沒有否定你的科學觀喔。我講的是依法行政喔。第二個,"},{"start":31920.809,"end":31946.325,"text":"你要跟我講說你檢驗一包不夠,你要平行再去檢驗其他包,這不是你的論點。法律有寫嗎?實案法第五條,講給我聽哪邊講的?你確認你的檢驗是正確的。什麼叫確認?你把法律條文寫清楚,確認兩個字。確認就是徵叫台中市前線機關,你要自己去負責裁量啊。可是你以前授請書規定就是零檢出啊。"},{"start":31947.432,"end":31951.555,"text":"中央地方同時復檢就看結果是否一致,如果不一致就找出原因,為何同樣的樣本有不同檢測結果。"},{"start":31968.405,"end":31983.282,"text":"如果臺中食安處跟食藥署復檢結果都是陽性,這就排除實驗室問題需進一步溯源,包括檢驗樣本從哪裡來重新檢查飼養過程,屠宰與污染問題。"},{"start":31986.316,"end":31998.529,"text":"這個結論你認不認同啊?我想這個實驗室的問題有兩個component一個是實驗室本身的標準作業流程第二個我只問你認不認同嘛yes no嘛"},{"start":32000.477,"end":32008.825,"text":"這是薛瑞元講的拜託你薛瑞元講的排除實驗室問題因為你偉大的試驗室最科學的試驗室也驗出來了第二個就是這個操作的過程謝謝你"},{"start":32026.862,"end":32049.402,"text":"謝謝羅文志強的質詢。也非常感謝我們陳院長特別跟院會報告今天排定的質詢的委員均與質詢完畢。再次感謝陳院長及政府院長及相關部會首長的列席答詢。也特別感謝衛福部的薛部長今天報病來院裡。非常感謝。那做以下的決定。"},{"start":32051.141,"end":32077.818,"text":"一、將各委員翻譯記錄及書面質詢含送行政院。請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆。二、以提出之書面質詢,尚未登載公報者一律補刊。二月27日星期二上午9時繼續開會,進行施政方針及施政報告之質詢。現在休息。謝謝大家。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}