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說我們在上半年就開始籌編像今年在籌編明年的時候這個理由都已經講了好多次了你還沒講我都已經知道了但是我是跟你講說你今年的預算數現在要省的這個預算數就是明年度要收的你本來跟我們講說話我們一口氣調高了3000多億算是很"},{"start":242.025,"end":271.492,"text":"很高了嘛 對不對你當初9月來的時候在講的時候說已經很高了結果現在發現光民國113年的實收數就可能會超過104年的預算數了幾乎是相同或是超過所以你114年的實收顯然會超過預算數了我在這裡就可以跟你打賭也可以跟你斷言啦"},{"start":272.734,"end":294.459,"text":"那我意思是說你115年在編列預算的時候稅入預算的時候可不可以稍微把我們台灣的經濟成長看得稍微好一點至少把這個今年4%的這個GDP的收入再加上明年度GDP的成長再加上明年度GDP的成長也一起估算在內啊"},{"start":296.259,"end":315.378,"text":"委員在估測方面我們是確實要不斷的精進委員剛剛的意見我們會納入然後我們在估測的時候有關GDP的成長率也都會納進去那當然就是看法上要更作為一個積極跟正面的估算好那我再來我要跟你請教那個電商的問題"},{"start":318.902,"end":346.189,"text":"美國商務部剛剛公布他說去年用小額免稅或免進口的貨物主要是中國啦數量激增高達10億件進入美國10億件那這個方案在10年前提出來的時候10年前的包裹數是1.4億然後到了10年後今天變成10億也就是說他們懷疑"},{"start":348.154,"end":371.463,"text":"華枕維林然後一再的這個這樣子的做法應該是懷疑是一個普遍的現象所以我就請教你當然美國的免稅的額度跟我們是不一樣台灣是2000塊以下的是免稅但是你如何積增那個包裹是2000塊以下你也是看交易價格還是你是對那個帳單呢"},{"start":375.978,"end":388.744,"text":"我們請署長做說明報報告委員我們會看他的發票就是他會提供報單上的完稅價格那我們會核對他所提供的發票對那我舉個例子那我如果"},{"start":390.319,"end":418.136,"text":"本來是要寄一萬塊的東西我把它拆成五件每一件發票都兩千塊就變成你的免稅額啊你是要知道美國商務部就是在講這個事情嘛因為他也有一個免稅額然後他那個貨物的數量膨脹得太快他認為不正常他認為說應該是會有這一種所謂的拆分的這樣子的狀況那關於拆分的狀況我們海關這邊有什麼方法可以防堵勒"},{"start":418.976,"end":444.793,"text":"呃是跟委員報告那委員之前也有提示過海關就這種高價低報以及這種拆分的一個逃避關稅的一個情況要加強的一個查緝那我們都有在做比如說他是冒名的或者是冒名註冊或冒名報關或假借其他的一個人頭的方式我們都用各種的一個方式來做這個相關的查核那也蠻有績效的"},{"start":445.694,"end":462.612,"text":"好那我請教你喔最近這三年因為這個包裹的通關你有增到多少關稅快遞貨物的部分大概平均大概是310億到340億之間那貨物稅跟營業稅大概是多少"},{"start":463.88,"end":490.069,"text":"呃 貨物稅跟營業稅的比例呃 抱歉我這邊沒有數字沒關係那你會後再補給我齁是那完稅價格在新台幣2000塊以內的免稅免稅的案件件數總共有多少總金額是多少以報單每年大概5000目前大概5500萬份左右這種X2的就是2000塊以下的是大概八成到八成二之間"},{"start":490.669,"end":514.185,"text":"那所以金額也是非常龐大喔數量是很龐大是對那所以這個中間其實你要去查其他既要花非常多的成本也是很不容易的事情當然是是啊所以這個你們有沒有什麼方式可以針對這一方面我跟你說中國的東西當初我就反對2000塊你說因為外國都是這樣都有一個額度"},{"start":515.046,"end":532.536,"text":"中國的東西是在中國生產他這用電商進來到台灣打擊台灣的製造業啊如果他免關稅免貨物稅免營業稅那台灣的製造業在台灣製造無論多少錢他都要繳這些稅"},{"start":534.352,"end":556.646,"text":"用我們的制度去造成國內跟外國的不公平競爭中國的東西都是底價傾銷嘛全世界都是認為他這樣啊所以你這個方式就有可能會造成一個讓他可以在中國生產然後來拼搗台灣的製造業的這個機會對我們國內的製造業不公平啊所以如果這個查緝是困難的話你這2000塊的免稅額度不能再檢討嗎"},{"start":564.93,"end":587.654,"text":"為什麼我們要給他免稅呢?跟委員報告因為這個低價免稅還是世界公務組織的規範那美國現在不打算遵守怎麼樣?我們現在每次都講世界怎麼樣世界怎麼樣因為這個是全球化政策的產物川普暫時當選之後他本身就反對全球化他要公益面的重整"},{"start":589.201,"end":609.997,"text":"所以這樣不公平的貿易是讓外國的製造商打擊台灣的製造業所以我是覺得有必要這個政策我請你們帶回去再研究我們有這個必要嗎在台灣我交一個坦白講我去7-11買個10塊20塊的東西我都要營業稅啊只是它是內涵而已啊那為什麼外國進來的東西外國製造的2000塊以內這些全部都免"},{"start":619.933,"end":646.714,"text":"那我是傻瓜啊我在台灣放製造業然後讓台灣的幫台灣的這個產業的工人然後讓他們能夠就業然後花這麼多的成本然後去你們的福利你們的利潤你們的那個稅金全部都是對於這些小額貨品從外國電商來的免稅那不是幫助外國拼拼我們台灣的廠商嗎這本身也是一種不公平貿易啊"},{"start":649.291,"end":655.557,"text":"中國這種低價傾銷的貨品非常的多我們覺得這個政策應該要好好檢討"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":539,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時50分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長早。今天看到媒體有報導說，今年預算的實收數已經超過今年本來應該要徵收的預算數，而且超過不少，還有媒體估計今年光中央的部分實徵數會超過預算數三千多億，這個報導是正確的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，確實有關稅收的部分，不管是全國的稅收或中央的稅收，在10月底已經達成今年度的預算數，那我們……"],["吳委員秉叡：超過了，不是達成而已。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，達成，而且超過了……我們估算全年會超過的部分，全國大概會超過4千億，中央大概會超過3,000億，這個是我們初步的估算。"],["吳委員秉叡：那今年的預算數當然是比去年估了多三千出頭億。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：也就是說今年的實收數到年底會跟明年度的預算數金額上會差不多。"],["莊部長翠雲：幾乎是，因為明年的稅課收入，我們編的是2兆7,000億，今年的預算數以中央來說是2兆3，加上這個大概就差不多接近2兆7,000億。"],["吳委員秉叡：是，所以今年的GDP又向上調，經濟成長強勁，臺灣有可能會超過4%，所以我是要提醒你，這個問題已經談了非常多年了，下一個年度就是民國115年度的預算，你是明年度年終之前就會開始籌編，那時候的預算數，你會考慮再增加多一點嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：您是說在籌編115年歲入預算的時候，因為115年的部分，主要是營所稅或綜所稅是要看114年營利事業的獲利情形。"],["吳委員秉叡：我再跟你報告，前天的媒體報導而已，10月光上市櫃公司的收入都破兆元，這都是媒體報導的，而且是國內媒體，我的意思是說你的估算還是會這麼保守嗎？因為你想想看，今年的實收數已經跟明年的預算數幾乎相同了，也就是說明年的GDP成長，當然收稅會有遞延的效果，但是明年的GDP，我這樣跟你預估，你明年一樣會超過預算數很多啦。"],["莊部長翠雲：當然希望就是整體的經濟成長帶動稅收的成長。"],["吳委員秉叡：這當然是經濟成長好，但是問題是我們財政部的估算一直落後嘛，一直落後，就讓有心人士有運作的空間，說政府都給人家什麼用一個不對的名詞，明明是實徵數超過預算數，他就說超徵，要還稅於民，這些亂七八糟、亂講亂編的又都出來了。我們財政部這幾年為什麼老是要留下給人家這樣講話的空間？我的問題在這裡。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的指教，因為在籌編的時候會有一些時間落差，比如我們在上半年就開始籌編，像今年在籌編明年的時候……"],["吳委員秉叡：這個理由都已經講過好多次了。"],["莊部長翠雲：這講了很多遍，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：你還沒講我都已經知道了，但是我是跟你講，你今年的預算數，現在要審的這個預算數，就是明年度要收的，你本來跟我們說我們一口氣調高了三千多億，算是很很高了，對不對？你9月來的時候說已經很高了，結果現在發現光民國113年的實收數就可能會超過114年的預算數，幾乎是相同或超過，所以你114年的實收顯然會超過預算數，我在這裡就可以跟你打賭，也可以跟你斷言。我的意思是，你在編列115年歲入預算的時候，可不可以稍微把我們臺灣的經濟成長看得稍微好一點？至少把今年4%GDP的收入，再加上明年度GDP的成長也一起估算在內？"],["莊部長翠雲：在估測方面我們確實要不斷的精進，委員剛剛的意見我們會納入，然後我們在估測的時候，有關GDP的成長率也都會納進去，當然就是看法上要更積極、正面的估算。"],["吳委員秉叡：再來我要跟你請教電商的問題，美國商務部剛剛公布，去年用小額免稅豁免進口的貨物，主要是中國，數量激增，高達10億件，進入美國10億件，這個方案在10年前提出來的時候，10年前的包裹數是1.4億件，10年後今天變成10億件，也就是說他們懷疑化整為零，懷疑這樣的作法應該是一個普遍的現象。所以我就請教你，當然美國的免稅額度跟我們不一樣，臺灣是2,000塊以下免稅，但是你如何稽徵那個包裹是2,000塊以下，你也是看交易價格，還是對帳單呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是不是請署長說明？"],["吳委員秉叡：請署長。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，我們會看他的發票，就是業者會提供報單上的完稅價格，我們會核對他所提供的發票。"],["吳委員秉叡：我舉一個例子，我如果本來是要寄1萬塊的東西，我把它拆成5件，每一件發票都2,000塊，就符合你的免稅額啊，你就要知道美國商務部就是在講這個事情嘛。"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為他也有一個免稅額，然後他們貨物的數量膨脹得太快，他們認為不正常，應該是有這一種所謂拆分的狀況。關於拆分的狀況，我們海關這邊有什麼方法可以防堵呢？"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，委員之前也有提示過海關，就這種高價低報及拆分的逃避關稅的情況，要加強查緝。我們都有在做，比如他是冒名註冊、冒名報關或假借人頭的方式，我們都用各種方式來做相關的查核，也蠻有績效的。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，我請教你，最近這三年因為包裹的通關，你有徵到多少關稅？"],["彭署長英偉：快遞貨物的部分，大概平均是310億到340億之間。"],["吳委員秉叡：那貨物稅跟營業稅大概是多少？"],["彭署長英偉：貨物稅跟營業稅的比例，抱歉，我這邊沒有數字。"],["吳委員秉叡：沒關係，你會後再補給我。"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：那完稅價格在新臺幣2,000塊以內的免稅案件件數總共有多少？總金額是多少？"],["彭署長英偉：以報單來說，目前每年大概5,500萬份左右……2,000塊以下的大概占八成到八成二之間。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以金額也是非常龐大？"],["彭署長英偉：數量是很龐大。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，所以這個中間其實你要去查緝要花非常多的成本，也是很不容易的事情。"],["彭署長英偉：當然，是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以你們有沒有什麼方式可以針對這一方面？我跟你說，中國的東西，當初我就反對2,000塊，你說因為外國都是這樣，都有一個額度。中國的東西是在中國生產，是用電商進來到臺灣，打擊臺灣的製造業，如果它免關稅、免貨物稅、免營業稅，那臺灣的製造業在臺灣製造，無論多少錢，他都要繳這些稅，用我們的制度造成國內跟外國的不公平競爭。中國的東西統統都是低價傾銷嘛，全世界都認為它這樣啊！所以這個方式就有可能會造成它可以在中國生產，然後來拚倒臺灣製造業的機會，對我們國內的製造業不公平啦！"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以如果這方面查緝困難的話，你這2,000塊的免稅額度不能再檢討嗎？為什麼我們要給它免稅呢？"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，因為低價免稅是世界關務組織的規範……"],["吳委員秉叡：那美國現在不打算遵守又怎麼樣？我們現在每次都講世界怎麼樣、世界怎麼樣，因為這是全球化政策的產物，川普這次當選之後，他本身就反對全球化，他要進行供應鏈的重整。這樣不公平的貿易是在為外國的製造商打擊臺灣的製造業耶！所以我是覺得這個政策有必要請你們帶回去再研究。"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們有這個必要嗎？在臺灣，坦白講，我去7-ELEVEN買個10塊、20塊的東西都要營業稅，只是它是內含的而已，那為什麼外國進來的東西、外國製造的2,000塊以內全部都免？那我們是傻瓜啊？我在臺灣做製造業，然後幫臺灣的產業工人、讓他們能夠就業，花這麼多的成本，然後你們的福利、你們的利潤、那個稅金，對於這些從外國電商來的小額貨品都免稅，那不是在幫助外國拚我們臺灣的廠商嗎？這本身也是一種不公平貿易啊！"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：好不好？"],["彭署長英偉：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你講，中國這種低價傾銷的貨品非常的多，我們覺得這個政策應該要好好檢討啦！謝謝你。"],["彭署長英偉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝秉叡委員。接下來請郭國文委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":172,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","王鴻薇","賴士葆","陳玉珍","羅明才","李彥秀","顏寬恒","陳菁徽","黃珊珊","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","羅廷瑋","羅智強","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","蔡其昌"],"page_start":13,"meetingDate":["2024-11-13"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」11 案：( 一 ) 行政院函請審議、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員張智倫等 17\n人、委員賴士葆等26人、委員蔡其昌等18人、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人、委員陳\n冠廷等23人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員賴惠員等18人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草\n案」等9案、(二)本院委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條及第十二條之三條文修正草\n案」案、(三)本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條及第十二條之六條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（僅詢\n答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預\n算部分。（僅詢答）；四、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分有\n關財政部主管債務基金─中央政府債務基金。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}