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10:21:48","會議時間":"2024-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請農業部部長就「我國動物保護政策執行概況，及動物保護法修法規劃內容與進程」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n           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〈一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、一、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、三、二、"},{"start":54.113,"end":73.016,"text":"那我們之前也說過了提高公糧的價格的時候會有一些影響但是我們也會尊重整個主決議的部分針對公糧的收購價格在7月16號的這個主決議的精神之下我們去處理他的一個配套的措施你的配套要達到我們那一天大家有共識的每公斤調高五塊錢"},{"start":75.418,"end":80.839,"text":"本院委員林宜玲等16人擬具:「動物保護法部分條文修正草案：及動物保護法規劃內容與進程：及動物保護法規劃內容與進程：及動物保護法規劃"},{"start":105.043,"end":110.448,"text":"本院委員林宜玲等16人擬具:「動物保護法部分條文修正草案．及動物保護法部分條文修正草案．及動物保護法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":131.089,"end":157.783,"text":"公糧收購都沒調嘛那天我特別問你啊那你自己當公務員你都已經調了五百嘛對不對你那天還回嗆我喔我說如果農民這次你公糧收購你沒有調我說你就沒有資格調薪了因為身為農業部長連農民都照顧不好對不對你後來回嗆我一句話你說我不調薪你就不調對不對那我現在公開宣布我不調薪嘛那如果後來一定要調我們把這個錢捐出去"},{"start":159.124,"end":166.248,"text":"及動物保護法部分條文修正草案．及動物保護法部分條文修正草案．及動物保護法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":189.944,"end":214.377,"text":"重點是你有沒有照顧到農民像我捐的很清楚是因為你提的這個點你提說我不調金你就不調對不對那我們現在是全部把錢都捐出來明年調了3%全部都捐那我很清楚因為你這次是因為供糧我就捐給我很清楚的公佈就捐給嘉義嘉義的稻米產銷班那你要捐給誰你到時候你要低調沒關係可是你還要讓外界很清楚知道你因為照顧農民"},{"start":216.918,"end":217.989,"text":"是你先提的啊?"},{"start":217.989,"end":218.756,"text":"這不是我先提的啊?"},{"start":220.202,"end":249.051,"text":"你直接嗆說委員不調你就不調對不對我沒有說委員不調我說你調你捐我就跟著捐不是喔我說你捐我就跟著捐喔我是這樣講喔你當初是說我不調你這不是嗆你沒關係你說要更正說我捐你就捐OK啦那我們就是要捐出來那我跟你講很清楚我捐給稻米產修班因為重點他們在第一線嘛他們最清楚整個公糧收購的問題不要坐在冷氣房裡面部長你不要坐在冷氣房裡面我告訴你我在舔你的時間一定比你多"},{"start":249.451,"end":252.112,"text":"條文修正草案．及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃"},{"start":277.076,"end":299.134,"text":"我在上個月問監察院秘書長李靜益的時候李靜益清清楚楚的表達這個案子等北檢北檢現在正在查什麼時候會再約你去也有可能啦陳其中也有可能隨時再邀嘛約完之後李靜益來我們看李靜益在回答我的質詢的時候要清楚講等北檢調查完之後監察院一定會提出彈劾"},{"start":300.387,"end":304.168,"text":"條文修正草案．及動物保護法部分條文修正草案．及動物保護法部分條文修正草案．及動物保護法部分條"},{"start":329.378,"end":352.816,"text":"一千多萬顆那那個氮氣要怎麼處理?那是人民的納稅錢,他要繼續在冷氣房吹冷氣嗎?繼續當作人民納稅錢嗎?你要把它銷毀還是要怎麼處理?我想在還沒過去之前我們會在適當的時間釋出但是我要跟委員報告一件事情當初的這些庫存的部分在當初去年3月的時候那個時候大家在缺氮的時候也同時有一個決議說"},{"start":353.937,"end":355.898,"text":"條文修正草案．及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容"},{"start":377.989,"end":388.526,"text":"部分條文修正草案．及動物保護法規劃內容與進程．及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動"},{"start":389.705,"end":414.787,"text":"對啦當然如果市面上現在蛋價是低的產量是夠的對不對你就不能夠這時候去去去去買可是很重要你不要放啦放放到又壞掉了好不好這個是這個要弄清楚事實上現在臺北市政府的衛生局現在已經去查了叫各個縣市政府你這段時間賣出去的蛋有沒有過期我們再查這個我們持續在追有沒有用到過期的蛋另外很重要的就是人民的錢這是一共搬了多少錢出去15億嘛對不對"},{"start":416.656,"end":430.824,"text":"本院委員林宜瑾等16人擬具:「動物保護法部分條文修正草案．及動物保護法規劃內容與進程．及動物保護法規劃內容與進程．及動物保護法規劃內容與進程．及動物保護法規劃內容與進程．及動物保護法規劃內容與進程．及動物保護法規劃內容與進程．及動物保護法規劃內容與進程．及動物保護法規劃內容與進程．及動物保護法規劃內容與進程．及動物保護法規劃內容與進程．及動物保護法規劃內"},{"start":438.059,"end":446.728,"text":"這個10億應該這麼講齁就是由續產會自有資金出那自由續產會是跟農業金庫做融資他融資了15億那5億是豬肉10億是雞蛋融資了15億10億是雞蛋然後現在已經還了剩下應該是3000應該是3000多萬吧"},{"start":457.082,"end":485.79,"text":"大概剩下3800多萬,其他都還了。我覺得這兩個很重要的問題嘛。中央巨產會大部分的錢是我們人民納稅錢你補助給他的嘛。這是第一個。這裡面浪費問題。第二個更重要的。那農業部又透過農業金庫把錢給他。裡面沒有發生你防弊的這個功能。這裡面很重要喔。你今天農金署的副署長有來對不對?副署長你本身也是農業金庫的常董嘛對不對?"},{"start":486.701,"end":503.708,"text":"大家就要問啊,農業部對於可能有產生一個弊案或者人民納稅錢被浪費的,你看現在北檢也查了。它已經是一個弊案了。當初為什麼沒有一個防止的機制?你說不要買那麼多,或者你買的時候要有一個機制,包括你這個錢怎麼會搬出去?你們當初有討論嗎?"},{"start":505.712,"end":510.635,"text":"規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規劃內容及動物保護法規"},{"start":535.428,"end":550.534,"text":"這個案子因為是農業部所屬單位的貸款所以當時我們有自主迴避公股的部分公股的部分有自主迴避沒有參與這個案件的審議所以你去開會你是沒有參與這個討論的我為什麼問這個問題很嚴重第一個從農業金庫搬錢出去"},{"start":556.204,"end":571.538,"text":"包括北檢都要查啊,每個人都要問啊,我們這名農業檢被搬出去啊,那誰做了這個決策?誰蓋了章?那現在你們的講法?你們派去的代表是沒有參與討論對不對?公股代表沒有參與討論公股代表?那為什麼不參加討論?"},{"start":573.988,"end":597.497,"text":"是回避責任嗎?不是,因為他是農業部所屬單位的貸款。那因為我們是農業部指派的公股代表,所以我們有自主回避沒有參與這個案件的責任。這是錢誰決定讓他搬出去了。這個當初,我第一個很明確要求,柏定,那天開會的資料一個禮拜內給我。當天誰參加開會,誰表達的意見,有沒有反對意見?"},{"start":599.326,"end":601.867,"text":"及動物保護法部分條文修正草案．及動物保護法部分條文修正草案．及動物保護法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":623.541,"end":641.413,"text":"好不好?你先檢討這個儘管會絕對不會派任何一個人到我們的公營的銀行裡面去當董事嘛為什麼我們的農業部派了一個人進去當這個常務董事這已經是個問題了第二個現在農業金庫發生很多問題喔虧損累累農業金庫虧損累累第一是草書記的問題為什麼把錢搬出去這個節契的過程造成了弊案第二個最近已經買了一堆的美債"},{"start":652.059,"end":679.535,"text":"美國的再信買了多少?一千三百億現在說至少可能會虧損五十億所以最近這幾年連那個股息都沒辦法發你農業金庫在開會的時候你的董監事到底會發揮該有的這個功能你現在一個很結構性的大問題不一定我告訴你你五個獨立董事每個公司如果要上軌道都要有好的獨立董事對不對你目前的董事五個都是你農業部派的"},{"start":681.189,"end":686.919,"text":"你本身是什麼?監督然後又變成是裁判這不是跟那個少林足球裡面講的是一樣嗎?"},{"start":688.519,"end":715.89,"text":"修正、旁證、主辦、協辦都列郎啊。所以這個整個農業金庫的運作就先天不足後天就是又失調啊。我要跟委員澄清一件事情。農業金庫它不是一般的公開發行的公司。農業金庫也不是一般的公司。農業金庫是我們現在所有農會的上級的一個銀行。它負責整個農會系統的信用部。所以它也肩負了所有的農業的這些農民的這些專案貸款跟一般性貸款。"},{"start":716.75,"end":738.711,"text":"所以他有高度的金融系統去支持我們農業的整個的一個經營所以相對的這個部分我們因為農業部有持股在那邊我們有持股我們派董事這是一個相關根據公司法是可以這樣做的所以本院你看你剛剛講說超市要不要遣失要不要搬出去你們去的代表就不敢進去開會啦沒有那是主動迴避"},{"start":742.205,"end":770.354,"text":"為什麼要主動迴避?就是因為有這個剛講的嘛你本身是監管的為什麼你又變成人選嘛?但是還有其他的人嘛就是本身你遇到案子就是要迴避部長現在很清楚出現了兩個很大問題嘛。操司這個過程裡面錢被搬出去。農業部的這個角色是什麼?農業經過為什麼造成這個虧損?第二個我就很清楚跟你講了。農業經過的虧損跟操司因為操司那時候農資的部分現在已經已經還了雞蛋的部分剩下3000多萬他不是沒有還錢而且他付利息"},{"start":771.621,"end":784.868,"text":"所以他是一個正常的一個借貸所以這集包括銷毀了你買進來包括銷毀連監察院都講了至少那個五千多萬顆損失的五億多嘛對不對那那個錢誰出那不是人民的錢嗎"},{"start":787.032,"end":806.108,"text":"我剛才說了從另外一個角度他當時是在維持整個雞蛋安全庫存的一個必要必須負擔的一個責任我們就買不到啊那時候還是買不到啊又很貴啊我們做個結論啦農業金庫顯然要從制度面去改革你們有全國農業金庫獨立董事設置跟應該遵行的這個辦法"},{"start":813.922,"end":821.658,"text":"你們要回去檢討這個好不好第一個你為什麼五個全部都是你農業部派的這本來就不合理啊你有四大股東啊"},{"start":823.271,"end":832.293,"text":"本院委員林宜玲等16人擬具:「動物保護法部分條文修正草案：及動物保護法規劃內容與進程：及動物保護法規劃內容與進程：及動物保護法規劃內容與進程：及動物保護法規劃內容與進程：及動物保護法規劃內容與進程：及動物保護法規劃內容與進程：及動物保護法規劃內容與進程：及動物保護法規劃內容與進程：及動物保護法規劃內容與進程：及動物保護法規劃內容與進程：及動物保護法規劃內"},{"start":851.052,"end":851.533,"text":"規劃內容．及動物保護法規劃內容．及動物保護法規劃"},{"start":867.401,"end":895.371,"text":"部長,今天最重要的就剛剛包括了其他的委員都在問你超時的就是合作這個農業金庫在這次錢被搬出去的過程裡面會議紀錄一個禮拜給你我覺得這個事情要追清楚到底誰做的這個決策把錢搬出去這是一個第二個更重要的把農業金庫虧損累累的事情趕快把它做一個改革好不好一個禮拜我們一個禮拜給你一個案子就是說針對因為你所要的資料我不知道是不是我拿得到依規定拿得到如果依規定拿得到我一定給你"},{"start":896.138,"end":897.225,"text":"條文修正草案．及動物保護法規劃內容與進程"},{"start":898.854,"end":923.35,"text":"到時候又弄到監察去要得到?相對的就是委員要資料一定是相關依據相關的辦法那我也剛才說了我如果一規定可以拿得到我一定拿給你那如果說我拿不到的話我就沒辦法因為你剛才講的那些會議紀錄還有什麼內部的相關於內部的決策過程是不是可以提供我不是了解但是如果可以我可以提供而且陳部長再到我們張委員辦公室去說說這個錢到底出什麼問題好不好?好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":325,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時6分）請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，早安。上禮拜我們在行政院跟卓院長算有共識了嘛，你剩下一個半月的時間喔，年底之前要提出公糧收購每公斤提高5塊錢的配套，有在準備了吧？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我會根據……我必須再講一次我的看法，我們現在在推的1集、2轉、3加3會繼續推動，我們之前也說過了，提高公糧價格時會有一些影響，但是我們也會尊重整個主決議，針對公糧的收購價格，在7月16號主決議的精神之下，我們去處理它的配套措施。"],["張委員啓楷：你的配套要達到我們那一天大家的共識，每公斤調高5塊錢。"],["陳部長駿季：那天的共識，我們會提出一個配套措施。"],["張委員啓楷：一諾千金喔，部長你不要跳票，那天是大家坐下來，朝野都講那麼清楚，連卓院長都在，就看你儘快……"],["陳部長駿季：那天是講我們要去處理公糧的政策，因為公糧調整有不同的方式，我們會提出相關的配套措施。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，那天很清楚嘛，那一天大家都很清楚，那時候總預算為什麼卡住，大家認為最大的絆腳石就是農業部啊，那天大家共同來解套，我是覺得朝野都非常用心，包括卓院長跟鄭麗君副院長都出來了，我現在是等著看你的配套，不要跳票，不要跳票。"],["陳部長駿季：我們的政策一定會報院同意以後才會到立法院來。"],["張委員啓楷：好，儘快，好不好？不要失信於民，一諾千金。部長，事實上這個根源最重要的是因為公糧收購13年都沒調整，那天我特別問你，你自己當公務員都已經調了5次嘛，對不對？你那天還回嗆我，我說如果這次農民公糧收購沒有調，我說你就沒有資格調薪了，因為身為農業部部長，連農民都照顧不好，對不對？你後來回嗆我一句話，你說我不調薪，你就不調，對不對？那我現在公開宣布我不調薪，如果後來一定要調，我把這個錢捐出去，所以你是不是也要捐出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，我捐不捐，我不需要公開。"],["張委員啓楷：不需要公開？"],["陳部長駿季：我不需要……"],["張委員啓楷：你都嗆我說不要調了，還不公開？"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，我要捐的對象絕對不會公開，我捐東西要捐到需要的地方跟需要的人，我在沒有當部長之前，我每一年都有去捐錢，捐到相關的社福單位，所以我不需要再用高調的方式去處理這個捐的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：不是高不高調嘛，重點是你有沒有照顧到農民，像我捐的很清楚啊，是因為你提的這個點，你提出我不調薪，你就不調，對不對？我們就是把錢全部捐出來，明年調的3%全部都捐，我很清楚啊，這次你是因為公糧嘛，我很清楚的公布，我就是捐給嘉義的稻米產銷班，你要捐給誰，你到時候你要低調沒關係，可是你要讓外界很清楚的知道，你應該要照顧農民。部長，是你先提的喔，這不是我先提的喔，你直接嗆說「委員不調，我就不調」，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有說委員不調，不是喔！我說：你捐，我就跟著捐。我說你捐我就跟著捐，我是這樣講喔，不是嗆你，這絕對不是嗆你。"],["張委員啓楷：你當初是說我不調你……沒關係，你如果要更正成「我捐，你就捐」，OK啦！我們就是要捐出來，很清楚，我捐給稻米產銷班，因為他們在第一線嘛，他們最清楚整個公糧收購的問題。部長，你不要坐在冷氣房裡面，請他們……"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，我在田裡的時間一定比你多。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，好，太好了，大家把這個記起來，部長今天有公開允諾了。更重要的，公糧收購1公斤調高5塊錢要去貫徹。","另外，我剛剛在問超思的問題，我問你一下，剛剛提到你被北檢約談嘛，你說你坦蕩蕩，這個案子到目前為止，有一個組長被交保，對不對？這個案子，吳諭非是300萬交保，這算是個重案。更重要的，我跟你講，我在上個月問監察院秘書長李俊俋的時候，李俊俋清清楚楚的表達，這個案子北檢現在正在查，什麼時候會再約你去也有可能，陳吉仲也有可能隨時被邀。我們來看，李俊俋在回答我的質詢時清楚的講，等北檢調查完之後，監察院一定會提出彈劾，那我今天要問你很重要的一個問題，老實講你就是有行政責任嘛，所以你要不要注意整個行政調查，不要現在馬上背書說你下面的人全部都沒有問題，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我只是說我知道的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：光是一個組長，目前就是交保狀態，這個案子目前就是一個弊案嘛，很清楚就是一個弊案嘛，對不對？好，那弊案我們要追幾個東西，第一個，我從上次就在提醒你，你浪費了那麼多人民的民脂民膏，你到底還有多少蛋是過期的，還放在那裡的？你上次說還有一千……"],["陳部長駿季：一千多萬顆。"],["張委員啓楷：那個蛋現在要怎麼處理？那是人民的納稅錢，它還是繼續在冷氣房吹冷氣嗎？繼續在浪費人民納稅錢嗎？你要把它銷毀，還是要怎麼處理？"],["陳部長駿季：我想在還沒過期之前，我們要在適當的時間釋出，但是我要跟委員報告一件事情，當初的這些庫存，在去年3月時，那時大家在缺蛋，同時有一個決議是我們要建立一個安全的庫存水位，所以當你用安全庫存的角度時，當它過期就必須要銷毀的；現在國外整個來源蛋場我們都已經掌握了，所以後續政府不會再去進口，我們用貿易商來處理，目前這些庫存就會儘量在不影響市場蛋價的情況之下釋出，如果沒辦法釋出，我們不會為了釋出而影響市價，所以後續必須要去處理的時候，我們還是會去處理。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，如果現在市面上蛋價是低的，產量是夠的，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：那你就不能夠這時候去賣嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們絕對不會。"],["張委員啓楷：這很重要，你不要又放到壞掉了，好不好？這個要弄清楚。事實上臺北市政府衛生局現在已經去查了，叫各個縣市政府查你這段時間賣出去的蛋有沒有過期，我們在查，我們持續在追，看有沒有用到過期的蛋。","另外，很重要的就是人民的錢，這次一共搬了多少錢出去？15億嘛對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：大概10億吧。"],["張委員啓楷：這次進口雞蛋一共搬了15億出去……"],["陳部長駿季：大概10億。"],["張委員啓楷：我們現在問一個很重要的……啊？"],["陳部長駿季：大概是10億。"],["張委員啓楷：10億？那為什麼有一個講法是……10億是吧？好，那我問你一下，10億的錢從哪邊搬？農業金庫對不對？搬我們人民的納稅錢出去，這10億有沒有擔保？"],["陳部長駿季：這個10億應該這麼講，由畜產會自有資金出，畜產會是跟農業金庫做融資，他融資了15億，5億是豬肉、10億是雞蛋。"],["張委員啓楷：融資了15億，10億是雞蛋。"],["陳部長駿季：然後現在已經還了，應該是剩下三千多萬，雞蛋剩下三千八百多萬，其他都還了。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這裡面有兩個很重要的問題，中央畜產會大部分的錢是我們人民納稅錢，你補助給他的嘛，這是第一個，這有沒有浪費的問題？第二個更重要的，農業部又透過農業金庫把錢給他，這裡面沒有發揮防弊的功能，這很重要喔！","今天農金署的副署長有來對不對？副署長你本身也是農業金庫的常董，對不對？大家就要問了，農業部對於可能產生的弊案，或者人民納稅錢被浪費了，你看現在北檢也查了，它已經是一個弊案了，當初為什麼沒有一個防止的機制？譬如說不要買那麼多，或者買的時候要有一個機制，包括這個錢怎麼會搬出去，你們當初有討論嗎？副署長，你去開會的時候有舉手反對，或是做什麼嚴格的規範嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告，你用現在來看當時，當時那個時候，雞蛋在哪邊都找不到，我們是儘可能的找，然後儘可能的滿足，然後畜產會本身的自有資金不夠，它跟農業金庫貸款，貸款也是要付利息的，貸款也要用農信保去處理，所以它的整個貸款還是依據相關的貸款程序去處理。"],["張委員啓楷：請副署長說明。"],["周副署長妙芳：跟委員報告，這個案子因為是農業部所屬單位的貸款，所以當時公股的部分有自主迴避，沒有參與這個案件的審議。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你去開會，你是沒有參與討論的？"],["周副署長妙芳：這個案件沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：我為什麼要問這個問題？這個很嚴重，第一個，從農業金庫搬錢出去，包括北檢都要查，每個人都要問，我們人民的納稅錢被搬出去，是誰做了一個決策？誰蓋了章？現在你們的講法是你們派去的代表沒有參與討論，對不對？"],["周副署長妙芳：公股代表沒有參與討論。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼不參與討論？是要迴避責任嗎？還是你本來就認為有問題？"],["周副署長妙芳：不是，因為它是農業部所屬單位的貸款，而我們是農業部指派的公股代表，所以我們有自主迴避，沒有參與這個案件的討論。"],["張委員啓楷：這個問題很嚴重，錢是誰決定讓它搬出去的？部長，第一個，我很明確要求，那天開會的資料，一個禮拜內提供給我，包括當天誰參加開會？誰表達了意見？有沒有反對意見？我們去把責任來做釐清。","第二個，我們從結構面來解決這個問題，部長，農金署的角色是監理單位，它為什麼要去當常董？依照公司法跟銀行法，金管會會派一個人去當我們公股銀行的董事嗎？先想一下這個事情，監管不能夠變成門神，好不好？你先檢討這個，因為金管會絕對不會派任何一個人到我們公營銀行裡面去當董事，為什麼我們的農業部派了一個人進去當常務董事，這已經是一個問題了。","再來，現在農業金庫發生很多問題，且農業金庫虧損累累，第一個是超思的問題，為什麼把錢搬出去？這個決策過程造成了弊案；第二個，它最近買了一堆的美債，美國的債信買了多少？1,300億，現在據說至少可能會虧損50億，所以最近這幾年，連股息都沒辦法發，農業金庫在開會時，你的董監事都沒有發揮該有的功能，總之，你現在已經有一個很結構性的大問題。部長，我跟你說，你的5個獨立董事，每個公司如果要上軌道，都要有好的獨立董事，對不對？目前5個獨立董事都是你農業部派的，你本身是要做監督，然後又變成是裁判，這不是跟少林足球裡面講的是一樣嗎？求證、旁證、主辦、協辦都是你們的人，所以整個農業金庫的運作就是先天不足，後天又失調。"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員澄清一件事情，農業金庫它不是一般公開發行的公司，農業金庫也不是一般的公司，農業金庫是我們現在所有農會的上級銀行，負責整個農會系統的信用部，它也肩負了所有農業農民的專案貸款跟一般性貸款，所以它有高度的金融系統去支持我們農業整個的經營，相對的，因為農業部有持股在那邊，所以我們有派董事，根據公司法是可以這樣做的。"],["張委員啓楷：所以部長，你剛剛講說超思要不要錢、15億要不要搬出去，你們派去的代表就不敢進去開會啊！"],["陳部長駿季：那是主動迴避。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼要主動迴避？就是剛講的，你本身是監管為什麼你又變門神……"],["陳部長駿季：還有其他的人，但遇到你本身的案子就要迴避。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在很清楚出現兩個很大的問題，超思在這個過程裡面，錢被搬出去了，農業部的角色是什麼？為什麼會造成農業金庫這個虧損？第二個，我現在很清楚跟你講的，農業金庫的虧損……"],["陳部長駿季：超思那時候融資的部分已經還了，雞蛋的部分剩下三千多萬，它不是沒有還錢，而且它有付利息，所以這是一個正常的借貸。"],["張委員啓楷：剩下的錢，你買進來包括銷毀等等，連監察院都講了，至少那五千多萬顆，損失了5億多，對不對？那個錢誰出？那不是人民的錢嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：從另外一個角度來看，它當時是在維持整個雞蛋安全庫存必須負擔的一個責任。"],["張委員啓楷：有嗎？我們就買不到啊！那時候還是買不到啊！又很貴啊！"],["主席：謝謝張委員。"],["張委員啓楷：不好意思，我們做個結論，農業金庫顯然要從制度面去改革，立法院最主要就是改革跟解決問題，部長，你們有全國農業金庫獨立董事設置及應遵循事項辦法，回去後檢討這個辦法好不好？第一個，為什麼這5個全部都是農業部派的？這本來就不合理，因為有四大股東啊！如果照銀行法，占1%以上的人都可以派董監事、派獨立董事……"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說了，它不是一般的公司，它負責我們農業經營的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！但現在就出現那麼多的問題，最簡單的就是虧損累累啊！農業部以前大部分都是合作金庫在幫你們的，對不對？合作金庫以前負責你們業務時是賺錢的啊！為什麼你弄了一個農業金庫之後，卻虧損成這樣子，你是不是應該做一些改革？就制度面來做改革。"],["陳部長駿季：合作金庫現在有新派任的董事長，他也是有銀行專業的，他也提出了一系列改善財務結構的措施，所以目前合作金庫的運作是正常的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，今天最重要的是，包括剛剛其他委員都在問你超思，所以農業金庫在這次錢被搬出去的過程裡面相關的會議紀錄請一個禮拜內提供給我，我覺得這個事情要追清楚，到底是誰做了這個決策把錢搬出去，這是第一個；第二個，更重要的，把農業金庫虧損累累的事情趕快做一個改革，好不好？一個禮拜內，針對……"],["陳部長駿季：因為你所要的資料，不知道我是不是依規定可以拿得到，如果依規定拿得到，我一定給你！"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：如果拿不到，這個責任怎麼追啊？到時候又弄到監察院去，又變成要得到……"],["陳部長駿季：委員要資料，一定是依據相關的辦法，我剛才也說了，如果依規定拿得到，我一定拿給你；如果我拿不到的話，那我就沒辦法，因為你剛才講的那些會議紀錄，還有相關內部的決策過程是不是可以提供，我不是很了解，但是如果可以提供，我就會提供。"],["主席：好，謝謝。請陳部長再到我們張委員辦公室說明。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我覺得你應該要去了解一下這個錢到底是出了什麼問題。謝謝。"],["主席：在陳亭妃委員質詢完畢後我們休息。現在請鄭正鈐委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-12","speakers":["呂玉玲","徐巧芯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","謝衣鳯","陳超明","邱志偉","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋","羅智強","洪申翰","郭昱晴","徐富癸","張雅琳","徐欣瑩","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-13"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請農業部部長就「我國動物保護政策執行概況，及動物保護法修法規劃內容與進程」進行\n報告，並備質詢；二、審查：(一)本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員張智\n倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保\n護法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修\n正草案」案、(七)本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三\n十條條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(九)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員廖先翔等\n19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部\n分條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}