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Line Facebook YouTube and IG這個社群平臺到目前為止還沒有"},{"start":80.994,"end":104.87,"text":"進行所謂的實名制廣告還沒有實名制的審查所以這個詐騙亂象要打詐是國人期待政府很久很久也很深很深希望能夠呢立竿見影嘛對不對所以速發部有責任那除了呢公股銀行九大又開始有其他的民間銀行也跟進甚至呢投信投顧也跟進但是呢"},{"start":106.191,"end":131.088,"text":"這樣子的一個行動我們要打炸但是它是不是也會發生所謂的破窗效應數位行銷會不會這個產業會不會受影響這個是值得我們關注的第一個打炸當然是首要要做的工作但是呢在打炸的同時我們如何讓我們的數位行銷產業也能夠健康正常的發展"},{"start":132.319,"end":154.539,"text":"這也很重要我舉幾個數字台灣的網紅經濟成長空間很大全球的產值這個報導是媒體預估的全球的產值是6500億那甚至預估2026還會再超越但是反觀台灣台灣的平台跟相關的類型廣告在2022"},{"start":156.781,"end":177.25,"text":"很好但是呢到2023呢又稍微有衰退那我們當然在講今年是2024雖然還沒有相關的數據問題是公股銀行跟其他的包括投信投庫跟未來可能跟進的民間企業開始測廣告那所謂的破窗效應會不會讓我們2024的這個數位行銷的一個相關的產業經濟會不會更衰退我覺得部長這個要值得觀察"},{"start":190.939,"end":203.772,"text":"我昨天才跟趙鋒金的董董事長開會嘛他有講說他現在是因為配合所謂實名制他不在剛剛講這幾個平台上面去做廣告可是他廣告金額並沒有減少"},{"start":204.833,"end":220.029,"text":"他說他一年1500萬會投放在其他的數位媒體的平台所以就是說他其實他會運用其他的數位平台來下廣告所以呢對數位行銷這個產業基本上是不影響"},{"start":220.489,"end":220.569,"text":"議員：何欣純"},{"start":247.036,"end":271.577,"text":"我會不會受影響我是提醒你要注意啦我是提醒你要注意我為什麼會講這件事呢是因為呢就是因為我們廣告實名制要上路了你們現在也在預告執法規那也送到行政院聽說11月喔月底呢會合訂然後公告這是現在我掌握到的期程我希望能夠如期啦但是呢我要"},{"start":272.518,"end":286.019,"text":"拜託部長你們可能要去好好的想一想未來我們執法規公告了之後第一個四大平台我剛剛講的現在沒有實名制廣告的這四大平台會不會跟進"},{"start":287.383,"end":304.834,"text":"部長會不會跟進?那個我們都有跟他溝通他們都有答應說會跟進他們有答應說會跟進那我以前就問過你了他們答應跟進那他們的系統介面有沒有保證會在我們今年年底上路之後他的設備"},{"start":307.256,"end":332.596,"text":"他的硬體他的介面可以建置完善嗎?可以完成嗎?我們跟他們喝過好幾次咖啡他們有正在進行中嗎?正在進行中那我就問你一個問題喔如果按照我們的法規要求數位簽章的憑證包括我們自然人工商憑證政府及法人憑證等等那這些憑證市大平台的系統有嫁接嗎?"},{"start":334.312,"end":352.726,"text":"因為他要先嫁接你才能認證啊啊如果系統平台他沒有辦法嫁接這些所謂自然人憑證工商憑證政府或法人的憑證系統他沒辦法嫁接的話那你如何讓他去合格說啊他這個真的是實名制"},{"start":353.536,"end":378.802,"text":"對他那個系統他現在建築請那個署長跟委員報告就是目前是數位清張可以另外的話技術相當的我現在在問你技術性說四大平台喝咖啡你說他說願意配合那願意配合那必須要先做嫁接嘛系統的嫁接嘛那系統嫁接他有沒有承諾你什麼時候可以完成因為我們這一個我們這個法規就要上路啦"},{"start":380.094,"end":380.755,"text":"所以沒有全面嗎?"},{"start":392.212,"end":412.036,"text":"所以沒有全面,你現在講出一個重點喔平台雖然答應但是他的系統嫁接到底有沒有完成那完成的時程又是如何如果沒有到位那你明年說要上路的實名制等於是做半套喔什麼叫做高風險的開始那所謂的高風險用戶又是誰來認定"},{"start":423.152,"end":427.862,"text":"誰他們會有一些AI的評斷在過去的資料裡面去評斷高風險那你有掌握嗎"},{"start":431.674,"end":434.558,"text":"你會不會給我一篇那個書面報告因為我要知道說你到底掌握到多少我今天要求的是你如果承諾明年1月1號要上路實名制"},{"start":453.238,"end":482.053,"text":"就要做完整的第一個系統的嫁接平台他既然答應了那他就要許諾我們政府許諾國人他要怎麼一步一步做到這第一個不是只有高風險的用戶啊高風險的用戶我剛剛問你誰來認定也是他認定啊也不是政府認定啊那他認定那我們又如何掌握那何時才能夠全面性的實名制"},{"start":484.379,"end":499.745,"text":"這個你不能把主導權掌握在系統平台上面那我們自己反而沒有主導權那你如何告訴國人說我打詐是真的我法規都已經立法修法預告公告然後明年一定如期上路"},{"start":501.431,"end":528.411,"text":"不能這樣啦那個報告委員這個我們在看他這個技術面我們你技術面他承諾什麼時候可以完全做到FIDO應該是在全面導入中那數位簽章我們數位簽章剛剛講是說因為簽章簽不然我們數位簽章法立法修法通過了結果沒有辦法執行那你怎麼承諾國人說我們可以打詐而且系統平台是跟我們政府站在同一個陣線要打擊詐騙"},{"start":531.513,"end":535.115,"text":"技術面是問題喔部長系統平台要不要跟政府的這個相關的憑證系統嫁接"},{"start":545.642,"end":567.779,"text":"這是問題耶我講的是說技術不是什麼時候導入導入的速度這是問題所以我們會去監督導入的速度什麼時候全面導入這個你要去追啊你要告訴我們啊你要告訴國人喔第二個我還在請你還有另外一個技術的問題請教你我們另外一個行動身份的識別現在"},{"start":569.406,"end":582.44,"text":"新的Face ID指紋辨識那我請教你系統平台他如何嫁接國人的Face ID跟指紋辨識系統我們現在有"},{"start":586.758,"end":601.931,"text":"如果系統平台沒有跟我們這些系統嫁接那未來我要去開Facebook的帳戶我的身份到底是不是真的我的指紋到底是不是真的我這一張臉到底是不是叫何欣純他怎麼辨識他怎麼認證那個"},{"start":605.745,"end":609.788,"text":"所以你有跟我們比如說警政、內政部他們講過指紋也要嫁接嗎?指紋系統要嫁接嗎?Face ID也要嫁接嗎?這個你們有跨部會講過嗎?還沒有嘛!還沒有嘛!"},{"start":630.182,"end":647.514,"text":"那都還沒有情況之下你告訴我你執法規現在在預告然後11月底行政院要公告然後你告訴國人說我們呢明年1月1號元旦之後呢實名制一定上路報告委員不見得要用內政部系統就是說他們會有個方式讓你去註冊部長"},{"start":649.352,"end":678.054,"text":"我現在就是在提醒你注冊的方式有好幾種那注冊的方式好幾種你要事先知道有哪幾種那有哪幾種那你就要政府要跟系統平台要求而且要他們許諾這個整個實名制的認證的規範必須在我們台灣的法律架構下系統平台一定要守法"},{"start":678.775,"end":688.539,"text":"那要他守法我們就必須要提供相關的技術的一個系統的一個嫁接如果沒有嫁接這個界面沒有完整的話那其實怎麼執行實名制嘛因為他就沒有資料庫系統可以來認證嘛我剛剛再講一次喔"},{"start":712.429,"end":717.976,"text":"請問他系統平台社群平台如何認證說我這張Face就叫做核心存"},{"start":719.218,"end":725.104,"text":"包括有兩個一個是電信商的Mobile ID也可以自然電評證當然也可以那我問你喔那你以後就是要限制我們的國人只能用你講的這幾個方式來申請帳號跟認證喔我用戶不能自主選擇嗎"},{"start":740.285,"end":754.299,"text":"有一些已經是比較容易導入像FIDAL這個應該是第一步會落實的可是你沒有跟國人講啊你要公開透明的講清楚嘛哪些是已經可以執行實名制的"},{"start":755.362,"end":757.283,"text":"報告委員這是給廣告商他要去認證不是本國人"},{"start":784.654,"end":787.795,"text":"國人他也可能是數位行銷的買家跟賣家啊"},{"start":809.015,"end":827.869,"text":"對不對我又不是只有公司法人才會是這個數位行銷的買家跟賣家廣告商這個這個這個這個我們會剛講就這個東西我們在在這個欸你們的你們的你們的那個框架好自私喔現在都已經進步到哪裡去了數位行銷"},{"start":830.612,"end":848.091,"text":"不知道進步到哪裡去了 你們現在框架還是在那裡喔 我是在提醒你啦 我們希望真正的實名制投放廣告的實名制一定要如期如實的上路 最重要是愛武豪啦"},{"start":848.692,"end":877.41,"text":"好 這個我會 我們會注意但是 要做得到啦技術很多 那導入方法也很多 是嘛 是嘛 好不好 所以你們的責任很大啦 所以要挽回民眾對你們的信心 那數位行銷產業不受影響而且還能夠呢 健康正常的發展成長 這個還有我剛剛講的數位平台這些系統的跟政府系統的嫁接如何落實實名制 這個是你們的責任好不好 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":324,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時16分）謝謝素月召委，我們請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。剛剛素月委員在講的這件事，我覺得我們數位發展部必須要花很大的心思在喚起國人對於我們個人在使用這些資訊網路的安全意識還有風險意識，我覺得這很重要。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["何委員欣純：接下來進行我的質詢。我們對數位發展部期望很高，我也知道你們責任很重，尤其你們是打詐國家隊非常重要的一個部會，那我就要問，最近我們看到公股銀行為了打擊金融詐騙，九大公股銀行開始率先說，以後對於沒有用實名制的數位平臺，不再下任何廣告，這件事你知道嘛，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：我知道。"],["何委員欣純：所以也不會再邀請網紅代言各項業務，那非實名制的，它在裡面點出Google、LINE、Facebook、YouTube、IG等社群平臺，到目前為止還沒有進行所謂的實名制廣告，還沒有實名制的審查，所以這個詐騙亂象要打詐是國人期待政府很久、很久，也很深、很深，希望能夠立竿見影，對不對？所以數發部有責任。除了九大公股銀行，開始有其他民間銀行也跟進，甚至投信、投顧也跟進，但是這樣的一個行動，我們要打詐，但是它是不是也會發生所謂的破窗效應？數位行銷這個產業會不會受影響？這個是值得我們關注的。","第一個，打詐當然是首要工作，但是在打詐的同時，我們如何讓我們的數位行銷產業也能夠健康、正常的發展，這也很重要。我舉幾個數字，臺灣的網紅經濟成長空間很大，這個報導是媒體預估的，全球的產值是6,500億，甚至預估2026還會再超越，但是反觀臺灣，臺灣的平臺跟相關的類型廣告在2022很好，但是到2023又稍微有衰退，今年是2024，雖然還沒有相關的數據，問題是公股銀行跟其他包括投信、投顧，跟未來可能跟進的民間企業開始撤廣告，所謂的破窗效應會不會讓我們2024的數位行銷相關的產業經濟更衰退？部長，我覺得這個值得觀察，部長你說。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。事實上我昨天才跟兆豐金的董董事長開會，他有說現在因為配合所謂的實名制，他不在剛剛講的這幾個平臺上面去做廣告，可是他的廣告金額並沒有減少，他說一年1,500萬會投放在其他剛剛講的數位媒體的平臺，所以就是說他……"],["何委員欣純：他會運用其他的數位平臺來下廣告？"],["黃部長彥男：對、對。"],["何委員欣純：所以對數位行銷這個產業基本上是不影響？"],["黃部長彥男：可能還有利，因為事實上會給其他的……"],["何委員欣純：意思是說，這4個國人最常用的，也是國際間最大的四大平臺暫時不下廣告而已？"],["黃部長彥男：對，但是錢沒有減少，他的廣告……"],["何委員欣純：不是說錢有沒有減少啦，而是在這4個平臺上所有數位行銷，不管是網紅也好，或是YouTuber也好，或者是其他個人的……會不會受影響？我是提醒你要注意啦！"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["何委員欣純：我為什麼會講這件事呢？就是因為我們廣告實名制要上路了，你們現在也在預告子法規，聽說11月底行政院會核定，然後公告，這是現在我掌握到的期程，我希望能夠如期，但是我要拜託部長，你們可能要好好的想一想，未來我們子法規公告了之後，第一個，我剛剛講的四大平臺，現在沒有實名制廣告的這四大平臺會不會跟進？部長，他們會不會跟進？"],["黃部長彥男：我們都有跟他們溝通，他們都有答應會跟進。"],["何委員欣純：他們有答應會跟進？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["何委員欣純：我以前就問過你了，他們答應跟進，那他們的系統介面，有沒有保證會在我們今年年底上路之後，它的設備、硬體、介面可以建置完善嗎？可以完成嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們跟他們喝過好幾次咖啡……"],["何委員欣純：他們有正在進行中嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：進行中。"],["何委員欣純：正在進行中。那我就問你一個問題，按照我們的法規要求，數位簽章的憑證包括自然人憑證、工商憑證、政府或法人憑證等等，這些憑證四大平臺的系統有嫁接嗎？因為它要先嫁接，你才能認證啊！如果系統平臺沒有辦法嫁接這些所謂的自然人憑證、工商憑證、政府或法人的憑證系統，它沒辦法嫁接的話，那你如何讓它去核可說這個真的是實名制？"],["黃部長彥男：那個系統現在在建置，我請署長說明。"],["林代理署長俊秀：跟委員報告，目前是數位簽章可以，另外的話……"],["何委員欣純：我現在在問你技術性，跟四大平臺喝完咖啡，你說他們說願意配合，那願意配合，但必須要先做嫁接、系統的嫁接。"],["林代理署長俊秀：對、對、對。"],["何委員欣純：那系統嫁接，他們有沒有承諾你什麼時候可以完成？因為我們這個法規就要上路啦！"],["林代理署長俊秀：他們有承諾說明年1月1號，不過，會從一些高風險的廣告客戶先開始。"],["何委員欣純：所以沒有全面嘛。"],["林代理署長俊秀：他們會逐漸全面導入。"],["何委員欣純：所以沒有全面，你現在講出一個重點喔！你現在講到一個重點喔！平臺雖然答應，但是它的系統嫁接到底有沒有完成？完成的時程又是如何？如果沒有到位，那你明年說要上路的實名制，等於是做半套喔！什麼叫做高風險的先開始？那所謂的高風險用戶又是誰來認定？"],["林代理署長俊秀：他們會有一些AI的評斷，在過去的資料裡面去評斷高風險。"],["何委員欣純：那你有掌握嗎？"],["林代理署長俊秀：他們現在已經在導入了。"],["何委員欣純：那你有掌握嗎？"],["林代理署長俊秀：我們持續在跟Meta……主要是Meta的部分，因為其他可能相對問題比較小，那Meta的部分，他們已經積極在做系統的調整。"],["何委員欣純：你會後給我一篇書面報告，因為我要知道你到底掌握到多少。我今天要求的是，你如果承諾明年1月1號實名制要上路，那就要做完整的，第一個是系統的嫁接，平臺既然答應了，那它就要許諾我們政府、許諾國人要怎麼一步、一步做到，這是第一個，不是只有高風險的用戶，而高風險的用戶，我剛剛問你誰來認定，也是它認定啊，也不是政府認定啊！那它認定的話，我們又如何掌握？何時才能夠全面性的實名制？你不能把主導權掌握在系統平臺上面，我們自己反而沒有主導權，那你如何告訴國人說我們打詐是真的，法規都已經立法、修法、預告、公告，然後明年一定如期上路，不能這樣啦！"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們看這個技術面，我們再去……"],["何委員欣純：在技術面，它承諾什麼時候可以完全做到？"],["黃部長彥男：FIDO應該是在全面導入中，而數位簽章，我們的數位簽章，剛剛講是說因為簽章……"],["何委員欣純：不然我們數位簽章法立法、修法通過了，結果沒有辦法執行，你怎麼承諾國人說我們可以打詐，而且系統平臺是跟政府站在同一個陣線要打擊詐騙？"],["黃部長彥男：技術面我覺得不是問題，現在是說……"],["何委員欣純：技術面是問題喔！部長，技術面是問題喔！系統平臺要不要跟政府相關的憑證系統嫁接，這是問題欸！"],["黃部長彥男：委員講的是技術的部分是什麼時候導入、導入的速度，這個是問題，所以我們會去監督。"],["何委員欣純：對啊！導入的速度，什麼時候全面導入，這個你要去追啊！"],["黃部長彥男：對！我們的處長，像FIDO……"],["何委員欣純：你要告訴我們，你要告訴國人喔！第二個，我還要請教你另外一個技術的問題，我們另外一個行動身分的識別，現在新的Face ID、指紋辨識，我請教你，系統平臺如何嫁接國人的Face ID跟指紋辨識系統？"],["黃部長彥男：我們現在有……"],["何委員欣純：如果系統平臺沒有跟這些系統嫁接，未來我要去開Facebook的帳戶，我的身分到底是不是真的，我的指紋到底是不是真的，我這一張臉到底是不是叫何欣純，它怎麼辨識？它怎麼認證？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛講的導入，就是必須要有一個機構。"],["何委員欣純：所以你有跟內政部他們講過，指紋也要嫁接嗎？指紋系統要嫁接嗎？Face ID有要嫁接嗎？你們有跨部會講過這個嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：這部分還沒有，但是我們會去……"],["何委員欣純：還沒有嘛！在都還沒有的情況之下，你告訴我子法規現在在預告，11月底行政院要公告，你告訴國人明年1月1號元旦之後實名制一定上路。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，不見得要用內政部系統，他們會有一個方式讓你去註冊。"],["林代理署長俊秀：不見得要嫁接啊！"],["何委員欣純：部長，我現在就是要提醒你，註冊的方式有好幾種。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["何委員欣純：註冊的方式有好幾種，你要事先知道有哪幾種，政府要跟系統平臺要求，而且要他們許諾整個實名制認證的規範，必須在臺灣法律架構下，系統平臺一定要守法，那要他們守法，我們就必須要提供相關技術系統的嫁接，如果沒有嫁接，這個介面沒有完整的話，怎麼執行實名制？因為它就沒有資料庫系統可以來認證嘛！我再講一次，沒有何欣純的face資料庫，我用我的face去申請，請問系統平臺、社群平臺如何認證我這張face就叫作何欣純？"],["林代理署長俊秀：包括有兩個，一個是電信商的mobile ID也可以，自然人憑證當然也可以，還有FIDO也可以……"],["何委員欣純：那我問你，以後就是要限制國人只能用你講的這幾個方式來申請帳號跟認證囉？"],["林代理署長俊秀：他可以用FIDO，然後請……"],["何委員欣純：用戶不能自主選擇嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：有一些已經是比較容易導入的，像FIDO，這個應該是第一步會落實的……"],["何委員欣純：可是你沒有跟國人講啊？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會把那個……"],["何委員欣純：你要公開透明地講清楚嘛！哪些是已經可以執行實名制的系統，哪些是可以執行實名制的方式，跟國人宣導請用這些方式去註冊也好，或者是去認證也好，不然其他的方式，像我講的指紋辨識、指紋系統還沒有建立，所以我不能用指紋，因為我們現在還沒有建立Face ID，所以也不能用face去刷臉。"],["黃部長彥男：這是給廣告商要去用的，它要去認證，不是本國人。"],["林代理署長俊秀：廣告商才需要啊！不是所有的國人。"],["何委員欣純：我問你，我們現在數位行銷，國人如果要上去數位行銷……"],["黃部長彥男：就要去註冊。"],["何委員欣純：就要去註冊啊！那你有沒有database？全臺灣國人裡面有多少人在進行數位行銷？"],["黃部長彥男：這個就是他要去，比如說他要在Facebook……"],["何委員欣純：所以你都沒有掌握嘛！我現在在告訴你，國人也可能是數位行銷的買家跟賣家，對不對？又不是只有公司法人才會是數位行銷的買家跟賣家？"],["林代理署長俊秀：廣告商可以很多人啊……"],["黃部長彥男：廣告商，我們剛剛講的這個東西，我們在這個……"],["何委員欣純：你們的那個框架好制式喔！現在都已經進步到哪裡去了，數位行銷不知道進步到哪裡去了，你們現在的框架還是在那裡……"],["主席：是不是請黃部長會後再跟何委員做整體地說明？"],["何委員欣純：我是在提醒你啦！我們希望真正的實名制、投放廣告的實名制，一定要如期如實的上路，最重要的是要有效啦！"],["黃部長彥男：這個我們會注意，但是剛剛講的……"],["何委員欣純：要做得到啦！"],["黃部長彥男：技術很多、導入方法也很多，這個我們會再去處理。"],["何委員欣純：是嘛！好不好？你們的責任很大啦！所以要挽回民眾對你們的信心，讓數位行銷產業不受影響，而且還能夠健康正常地發展、成長。"],["黃部長彥男：會。"],["何委員欣純：還有我剛剛講的數位平臺這些系統跟政府系統的嫁接，如何落實實名制，這個是你們的責任，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","在這邊先作一個宣告：在黃健豪委員質詢之後休息10分鐘。","接下來邀請黃健豪委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-9","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","游顥","何欣純","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","賴士葆","黃國昌","吳春城","林月琴","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳培瑜"],"page_start":185,"meetingDate":["2024-11-13"],"gazette_id":"1139801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算；二、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於數位發展部數位產業署單位預算","agenda_id":"1139801_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}