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10:43:35","會議時間":"2024-11-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於內政部主管部分。三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算內政部主管部分。四、審查內政部函送財團法人二二八事件紀念基金會等8家財團法人114年度預算書案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心114年度預算書案。【所列預算案僅詢答，另訂時間處理】六、審查「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例」修正草案，計九案：(一)審查行政院函請審議「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員張雅琳等25人擬具「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案。(九)審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案。【第(六)案至第(八)案如經復議則不予審查，第(九)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":1.70159375,"end":3.3553437500000003,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3.42284375,"end":4.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":8.89034375,"end":14.57721875,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":14.99909375,"end":21.88409375,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":22.39034375,"end":26.49096875,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":26.828468750000003,"end":34.57409375,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.89471875,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":52.96784375,"end":52.984718750000006,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.984718750000006,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.13659375,"end":53.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":53.57534375,"end":58.62096875,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.31784375,"end":56.916593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":58.75596875,"end":61.101593750000006,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":61.48971875,"end":66.92346875,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":67.21034375,"end":73.35284375,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.47096875,"end":73.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":73.97721875,"end":80.27159375000001,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":82.71846875,"end":85.30034375000001,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.76909375000001,"end":89.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.55284375000001,"end":99.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":99.61034375000001,"end":99.64409375000001,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":99.67784375000001,"end":99.69471875,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.69471875,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":99.71159375,"end":100.06596875000001,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":109.09409375000001,"end":119.94471875,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":120.14721875000001,"end":127.69034375000001,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":128.12909375,"end":136.12784375,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":136.80284375000002,"end":141.32534375,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":141.61221875,"end":145.49346875,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.49346875,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":145.56096875,"end":145.57784375,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":145.79721875,"end":145.86471875,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.40284375000002,"end":159.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":170.02971875,"end":184.08659375000002,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.40096875,"end":171.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":184.13721875000002,"end":223.10159375,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.70909375000002,"end":239.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":223.86096875,"end":224.31659375,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":233.56409375,"end":234.27284375000002,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":235.52159375000002,"end":266.70659375,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":266.70659375,"end":272.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":267.22971875,"end":268.15784375000004,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":271.85346875,"end":272.34284375000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草案內容是什麼我也講給您聽1895年台灣淪入日本軍國主義之首原住民也經歷了歷史上最慘烈的時代"},{"start":570.518,"end":571.919,"text":"三、審查內政部主管部分。四、審查內政部主管部分。五、審查內政部主管部分。"},{"start":600.478,"end":602.299,"text":"三、審查內政部主管部分。四、審查內政部主管部分。"},{"start":617.023,"end":619.524,"text":"三、審查內政部主管部分。四、審查內政部主管部分。五、審查內政部主管部分。六、審查內政部主管部分。"},{"start":635.47,"end":656.571,"text":"都是侵害都需要被轉型正義來糾正的話那麼我們就應該要把威權統治時期的時間定義在1895年否則我認為這又是一樁樁所謂歷史近在的政治清算罷了執行長您聽到了吧您很年輕你幾歲"},{"start":663.177,"end":689.651,"text":"我1977年出生我剛剛講的這段歷史我希望你回去能夠理解好不好你站在這個位置很重要當然未來修法的同時呢我也會堅持我們的立場只不過很遺憾的這個所謂的轉型正義條例上一屆我們在談的時候就切割掉了原住民那我會繼續再努力也希望你跟我站在同一個建設線上可以嗎"},{"start":690.532,"end":691.072,"text":"三、審查內政部部長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:31:58.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:31:58.643000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，有請部長。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-13T10:31:58.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:31:58.983000+08:00","text":"請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:32:04.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:32:06.789000+08:00","text":"部長，有兩個議題在這邊就教您。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:32:07.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:32:17.653000+08:00","text":"5月29號的時候您在這邊跟我承諾，有幾件事情是關於原住民的部分，第一個就是零星住戶的住宅使用權利要比照農四。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:32:18.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:32:22.295000+08:00","text":"第二個是原住民申請興建自用住宅一生一次的規定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:32:22.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:32:29.417000+08:00","text":"第三個是以山地鄉（區）為單位辦理鄉村規劃，這三件事情必須納入政策的規劃，有嗎？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-13T10:32:31.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:32:50.866000+08:00","text":"有，我非常記得高金素梅委員對於原民部落的垂詢，跟高金委員報告一下，有關住宅合法化的部分，就是我們所說的原住民土管的這個條例，現在我們應該是納入了，在年底之前可以公布。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:32:51.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:32:52.147000+08:00","text":"好，這是我待會的問題。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-13T10:32:52.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:32:52.868000+08:00","text":"這沒有問題。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:32:52.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:33:09.059000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我再請問你一下，在我的協調之下，國土署在8月21號的時候已經召開了「原住民族部落住宅合法化推動研討會」，並且對於原鄉部落住宅合法化也提出了初步解決方案，署長對吧？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-11-13T10:33:09.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:33:10.480000+08:00","text":"沒有錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:33:11.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:33:16.104000+08:00","text":"好，接下來是不是可以如期在114年4月30號上路？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:33:16.104000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:33:24.185886+08:00","text":"請簡短說一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-13T10:33:24.185886+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:33:32.267771+08:00","text":"我們現在因為國土……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-11-13T10:33:32.267771+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:33:40.349657+08:00","text":"我們會朝這個目標進行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-13T10:33:40.349657+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:33:48.431543+08:00","text":"我們是朝這個目標進行，跟高金委員報告一下，原住民的土地管制，或者是住宅合法，或者是相關其他條例的部分，我們現在進行都滿順利的，因為原民部落很多人都非常支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:33:48.431543+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:33:56.513429+08:00","text":"好，如果……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-13T10:33:56.513429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:34:04.595314+08:00","text":"但是國土計畫法要在4月30日前等全國的土地功能分區全部送上來，目前是有三分之二的縣市已經送上來，另外有三分之一我們會再努力。","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:34:04.595314+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:34:12.677200+08:00","text":"我知道，好，如果沒有辦法如期全部上路的話，我有兩個建議，你聽聽看，第一個就是修正國土計畫法第四十五條所謂一併公告這樣子的限制，是不是把它拿掉，然後允許完成程序的縣市先走；沒有完成的，我們讓它再繼續討論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:34:12.677200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:34:20.759086+08:00","text":"第二個就是原住民族地區土地使用規則跟國土計畫法要脫鉤，然後讓它按期公布，因為這對原住民的房屋合法來講，實在是太重要了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:34:20.759086+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:34:28.840971+08:00","text":"部長，您的看法呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-13T10:34:28.840971+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:34:36.922857+08:00","text":"非常謝謝委員的關心，確實有人提到，是不是我們修正國土計畫法第四十五條，把一併公告的部分修正為已經完成送內政部審查的部分先處理。","quality":0.085},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:34:36.922857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:34:45.004743+08:00","text":"您可以考慮嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-13T10:34:45.004743+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:34:53.086629+08:00","text":"我們會考慮，但是需要有配套，所謂的配套就是剛剛所說的，第一個就是其他沒有完成程序的縣市，他們會用什麼方式來補充到內政部討論……","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:34:53.086629+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:35:01.168514+08:00","text":"沒關係，至於你們要怎麼配套的話，請部長到時候再跟有意見的縣市討論，但是我的感覺是，原住民的土地使用規則必須要脫鉤，因為我們的族人對於這種改善土地不正義已經期待了很久，希望你們研議好不好？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:35:01.168514+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:35:09.250400+08:00","text":"另外，署長，你應該知道了，新北市政府在10月已經發布了變更烏來水源特定區的細部計畫，這個計畫是中央跟地方的專家學者共同審議的，也是在本席多年的建議之下，這些專家學者對於原住民部落住宅合法化最新的判斷基準，並不是在105年，它是認為全國國土計畫法發布前的107年4月30號是最合理而且可以操作的，這是不是可以作為未來政策的原則？署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-11-13T10:35:09.250400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:35:17.332286+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，當然，我想他們所提的建議應該也是因為之前一直沒有，所以他們也沒有進行過類似的調查，所以他們會建議用這個方式是最簡便的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:35:17.332286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:35:25.414171+08:00","text":"107年4月30號是最準確……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-11-13T10:35:25.414171+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:35:33.496057+08:00","text":"這個我們會跟新北市來討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:35:33.496057+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:35:41.577943+08:00","text":"好，如果是這樣的話，我有兩個具體的建議要請你來聽一下，你是不是可以行文給地方政府，就是對於原住民部落住宅合法化的判斷基準，也按照國土計畫法第十六條，行文給各縣市修正原鄉都市計畫主管法規，並且原鄉都市或者是非都市計畫都要可以適用這個107年4月30號，可以嗎？","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-11-13T10:35:41.577943+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:35:49.659829+08:00","text":"了解，這個我想大致上地方的意思是說，都計區跟非都，他們覺得還是把它脫鉤處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:35:49.659829+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:35:57.741714+08:00","text":"對，都把它做一樣的處理，作為107年……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-11-13T10:35:57.741714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:36:05.823600+08:00","text":"所以如果現在要回歸到一樣的話，我想我們要看法規，我們會再找地方政府討論一下法規面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:36:05.823600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:36:13.905486+08:00","text":"好，麻煩您一下，因為今天時間不多，再到我辦公室來討論一下，好不好？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:36:13.905486+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:36:21.987371+08:00","text":"如果可以的話，當你們行文給地方政府的時候，副本也給我一份，好嗎？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:36:21.987371+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:36:30.069257+08:00","text":"第二個就是關於姓名條例了，部長，你還記得嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:36:30.069257+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:36:38.151143+08:00","text":"我在這邊擔任召委的時候，我們好不容易通過了第一個原住民的法案就是姓名條例，允許原住民族的文字單列在身分證上面，我也提出了很多的附帶決議，包括要同步更新姓名系統，還有制定傳統名字認定指引，可是在8月26號發生了非常遺憾的事情，也就是我們的族人替孩子去登記族名的時候遭到羞辱，9月19號再一次發生族人在戶政事務所登記原住民文字的時候，也遭受到刁難這樣的情況，部長，你知道這些情形嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:36:38.151143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:36:46.233029+08:00","text":"戶政司代理陳司長在嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-13T10:36:46.233029+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:36:54.314914+08:00","text":"我們這位是司長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:36:54.314914+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:37:02.396800+08:00","text":"好，司長，來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-13T10:37:02.396800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:37:10.478686+08:00","text":"姓名條例已經修正公布了，我想請他來做……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:37:10.478686+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:37:18.560571+08:00","text":"對，為什麼還會有這樣被羞辱、微歧視的狀況出現？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳司長永智","start":"2024-11-13T10:37:18.560571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:37:26.642457+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:37:26.642457+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:37:34.724343+08:00","text":"我知道你已經回文給我了，我們就不要浪費太多的時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳司長永智","start":"2024-11-13T10:37:34.724343+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:37:42.806229+08:00","text":"另外就是原民會現在針對指引的部分，已經開了16場的徵詢會議，預計在11月底會……","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:37:42.806229+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:37:50.888114+08:00","text":"我知道，我有兩個具體建議，我希望以後不要再發生這種事情，部長可以嗎？","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:37:50.888114+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:37:58.970000+08:00","text":"可以吧？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:37:58.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:38:19.220000+08:00","text":"好，兩個具體的建議就是我們把傳統名字列入未來戶政人員的國家考試科目，當然這個是需要考量的，希望部長能朝這個方向來考慮一下，就是未來戶政人員的國家考試科目必須要了解原住民的……因為這也是修法通過的。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:38:19.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:38:27.525000+08:00","text":"第二個就是請你們定期跟原民會合作，增加原住民法規還有傳統名字的相關課程，可以嗎？是。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:38:27.525000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:38:32.496200+08:00","text":"第二個可能比較可行，第一個你們考慮一下，好不好？","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-11-13T10:38:32.496200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:38:37.467400+08:00","text":"第一個部分我們要跟考試院協商。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:38:37.467400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:38:42.438600+08:00","text":"好，在最快的時間內也讓我能夠知道你們處理的狀況，謝謝部長。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:38:42.438600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:38:47.409800+08:00","text":"另外，我要請財團法人威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復基金會孫執行長，有在嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:38:47.409800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:38:52.381000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝您，快一點，滿年輕的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:38:52.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:39:30.541000+08:00","text":"從106年促進轉型正義條例到111年的威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例，一直到今（113）年民進黨又推出了不義遺址保存條例草案，全部都將威權統治時期定義為從中華民國34年8月15號到81年11月6號止，也就是說，僅僅針對中華民國政府在日本戰敗投降，接收臺灣之後，一直到金馬地區解除戰地政務為止，你了解這件事情吧？了解。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:39:31.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:39:32.502000+08:00","text":"你有什麼看法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"孫執行長斌","start":"2024-11-13T10:39:33.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:39:34.744000+08:00","text":"我們都是依照法律規定辦理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:39:34.744000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:39:42.577857+08:00","text":"如果法定之外的呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:39:42.577857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:39:50.411714+08:00","text":"因為你這個位置很重要，我講解一段日本時期原住民的歷史給你聽。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:39:50.411714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:39:58.245571+08:00","text":"抱歉，主席，再給我一點點時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:39:58.245571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:40:06.079429+08:00","text":"日本軍國主義在臺灣占領和殖民的行為，難道就不算威權嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:40:06.079429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:40:13.913286+08:00","text":"年輕人，執行長，你好好聽一下，日本軍國主義對原住民曾經用過三光政策──殺光、搶光、燒光的理蕃政策，難道這些就不是不義嗎？","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:40:13.913286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:40:21.747143+08:00","text":"所以年輕人，請你聽好，我們希望民進黨眼中的轉型正義，他們不要切割掉臺灣的主人，也就是原住民族在日據時期被不義行為侵害的事實，所以我要再一次的說轉型正義的指導思想是什麼呢？","quality":0.013},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:40:21.747143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:40:29.581000+08:00","text":"年輕人，你知道吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"孫執行長斌","start":"2024-11-13T10:40:29.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:40:31.168000+08:00","text":"就是追求真相，避免再度發生。對！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:40:32.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:40:43.118000+08:00","text":"既然是如此的話，我就要問了，我們的執政黨，對於所謂的位置，你是站在殖民者的位置，還是站在被殖民的位置？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:40:43.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:40:48.020000+08:00","text":"執行長你很重要，你這要回去好好思考，我堅持！","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:40:48.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:40:52.662000+08:00","text":"我堅持轉型正義不能夠淪為轉盤正義，不能夠這個轉盤輪到誰家，就是正義；這個輪盤轉不到我家，就不是正義，你同意嗎？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:40:52.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:40:52.682000+08:00","text":"執行長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"孫執行長斌","start":"2024-11-13T10:41:02.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:41:04.680000+08:00","text":"我們想這個正義應該是有普世價值的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:41:05.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:41:05.681000+08:00","text":"普世價值？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:41:05.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:41:07.803000+08:00","text":"所以你同意我的說法對不對？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:41:08.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:41:16.150000+08:00","text":"我在民國97年曾經用無黨聯盟的名義提案過原住民的土地法草案，這個草案內容是什麼？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:41:16.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:41:16.590000+08:00","text":"我也講給您聽。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:41:16.590000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:41:31.566000+08:00","text":"1895年，臺灣淪入日本軍國主義之手，原住民也經歷了歷史上最慘烈的時代，日本政府的理蕃政策，他們就是要全然消滅所有的蕃人還有蕃地，然後他殖民的最終目的就是為了要開發臺灣山林，取得豐富的資源，所以他們頒發了日令第26號，記得日令第26號，原住民第一個碰到所謂的法令就是說什麼？","quality":0.244},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:41:31.566000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:41:46.542000+08:00","text":"沒有所有權狀以及其他可以確定證明的山林原野通通屬於官有，就是蕃地等於無主地等於國有地。","quality":0.024},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:41:46.542000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:42:01.518000+08:00","text":"原住民在一夕之間，我們的土地通通淪為日本軍國主義所謂的國有土地。","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:42:01.518000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:42:16.494000+08:00","text":"所以執行長，這難道不是威權統治嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:42:16.494000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:42:31.470000+08:00","text":"原住民的土地轉型正義難道不應該要從這裡開始嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:42:31.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:42:51.310000+08:00","text":"所以今天召委在這邊排了所謂的轉型正義、所謂的不義遺址，我要說的是，如果大家認為一切的威權不義行為都是侵害、都需要被轉型正義來糾正的話，那麼我們就應該要把威權統治時期的時間定義在1895年，否則我認為這又是一樁樁所謂歷史記載的政治清算罷了。","quality":0.565},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:42:52.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:42:52.231000+08:00","text":"執行長，您聽到了吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:42:52.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:42:52.571000+08:00","text":"您很年輕，您幾歲？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"孫執行長斌","start":"2024-11-13T10:42:59.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:43:00.158000+08:00","text":"我1977年出生。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:43:01.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:43:04.700000+08:00","text":"好，我剛剛講的這段歷史，我希望你回去能夠理解好不好？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:43:05+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T10:43:25.651000+08:00","text":"你站在這個位置很重要，當然未來修法的同時，我也會堅持我們的立場，只不過很遺憾的，這個所謂的轉型正義條例，上一屆我們在談的時候就切割掉了原住民，我會繼續再努力，也希望你跟我站在同一個陣線上，可以嗎？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"孫執行長斌","start":"2024-11-13T10:43:26.151000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:43:27.865286+08:00","text":"謝謝委員指教。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高金委員素梅","start":"2024-11-13T10:43:28.165286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:43:33.308143+08:00","text":"你如果需要一些資料的話，我可以提供給您。","quality":0},{"speaker":"孫執行長斌","start":"2024-11-13T10:43:33.608143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:43:36.179571+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。加油！謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-13T10:43:36.479571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T10:43:38.765286+08:00","text":"我們請李柏毅委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1313,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時31分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["高金委員素梅：部長，有兩個議題在這邊就教您。5月29號的時候您在這邊跟我承諾，有幾件事情是關於原住民的部分，第一個就是零星住戶的住宅使用權利要比照農四。第二個是原住民申請興建自用住宅一生一次的規定。第三個是以山地鄉（區）為單位辦理鄉村規劃，這三件事情必須納入政策的規劃，有嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有，我非常記得高金素梅委員對於原民部落的垂詢，跟高金委員報告一下，有關住宅合法化的部分，就是我們所說的原住民土管的這個條例，現在我們應該是納入了，在年底之前可以公布。"],["高金委員素梅：好，這是我待會的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：這沒有問題。"],["高金委員素梅：沒關係，我再請問你一下，在我的協調之下，國土署在8月21號的時候已經召開了「原住民族部落住宅合法化推動研討會」，並且對於原鄉部落住宅合法化也提出了初步解決方案，署長對吧？"],["吳署長欣修：沒有錯。"],["高金委員素梅：好，接下來是不是可以如期在114年4月30號上路？請簡短說一下。"],["劉部長世芳：我們現在因為國土……"],["吳署長欣修：我們會朝這個目標進行。"],["劉部長世芳：我們是朝這個目標進行，跟高金委員報告一下，原住民的土地管制，或者是住宅合法，或者是相關其他條例的部分，我們現在進行都滿順利的，因為原民部落很多人都非常支持。"],["高金委員素梅：好，如果……"],["劉部長世芳：但是國土計畫法要在4月30日前等全國的土地功能分區全部送上來，目前是有三分之二的縣市已經送上來，另外有三分之一我們會再努力。"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，好，如果沒有辦法如期全部上路的話，我有兩個建議，你聽聽看，第一個就是修正國土計畫法第四十五條所謂一併公告這樣子的限制，是不是把它拿掉，然後允許完成程序的縣市先走；沒有完成的，我們讓它再繼續討論？第二個就是原住民族地區土地使用規則跟國土計畫法要脫鉤，然後讓它按期公布，因為這對原住民的房屋合法來講，實在是太重要了！部長，您的看法呢？"],["劉部長世芳：非常謝謝委員的關心，確實有人提到，是不是我們修正國土計畫法第四十五條，把一併公告的部分修正為已經完成送內政部審查的部分先處理。"],["高金委員素梅：您可以考慮嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們會考慮，但是需要有配套，所謂的配套就是剛剛所說的，第一個就是其他沒有完成程序的縣市，他們會用什麼方式來補充到內政部討論……"],["高金委員素梅：沒關係，至於你們要怎麼配套的話，請部長到時候再跟有意見的縣市討論，但是我的感覺是，原住民的土地使用規則必須要脫鉤，因為我們的族人對於這種改善土地不正義已經期待了很久，希望你們研議好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["高金委員素梅：另外，署長，你應該知道了，新北市政府在10月已經發布了變更烏來水源特定區的細部計畫，這個計畫是中央跟地方的專家學者共同審議的，也是在本席多年的建議之下，這些專家學者對於原住民部落住宅合法化最新的判斷基準，並不是在105年，它是認為全國國土計畫法發布前的107年4月30號是最合理而且可以操作的，這是不是可以作為未來政策的原則？署長。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，當然，我想他們所提的建議應該也是因為之前一直沒有，所以他們也沒有進行過類似的調查，所以他們會建議用這個方式是最簡便的。"],["高金委員素梅：107年4月30號是最準確……"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們會跟新北市來討論。"],["高金委員素梅：好，如果是這樣的話，我有兩個具體的建議要請你來聽一下，你是不是可以行文給地方政府，就是對於原住民部落住宅合法化的判斷基準，也按照國土計畫法第十六條，行文給各縣市修正原鄉都市計畫主管法規，並且原鄉都市或者是非都市計畫都要可以適用這個107年4月30號，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：了解，這個我想大致上地方的意思是說，都計區跟非都，他們覺得還是把它脫鉤處理。"],["高金委員素梅：對，都把它做一樣的處理，作為107年……"],["吳署長欣修：所以如果現在要回歸到一樣的話，我想我們要看法規，我們會再找地方政府討論一下法規面。"],["高金委員素梅：好，麻煩您一下，因為今天時間不多，再到我辦公室來討論一下，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["高金委員素梅：如果可以的話，當你們行文給地方政府的時候，副本也給我一份，好嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["高金委員素梅：第二個就是關於姓名條例了，部長，你還記得嗎？我在這邊擔任召委的時候，我們好不容易通過了第一個原住民的法案就是姓名條例，允許原住民族的文字單列在身分證上面，我也提出了很多的附帶決議，包括要同步更新姓名系統，還有制定傳統名字認定指引，可是在8月26號發生了非常遺憾的事情，也就是我們的族人替孩子去登記族名的時候遭到羞辱，9月19號再一次發生族人在戶政事務所登記原住民文字的時候，也遭受到刁難這樣的情況，部長，你知道這些情形嗎？戶政司代理陳司長在嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們這位是司長。"],["高金委員素梅：好，司長，來。"],["劉部長世芳：姓名條例已經修正公布了，我想請他來做……"],["高金委員素梅：對，為什麼還會有這樣被羞辱、微歧視的狀況出現？"],["陳司長永智：跟委員報告，因為……"],["高金委員素梅：我知道你已經回文給我了，我們就不要浪費太多的時間。"],["陳司長永智：另外就是原民會現在針對指引的部分，已經開了16場的徵詢會議，預計在11月底會……"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，我有兩個具體建議，我希望以後不要再發生這種事情，部長可以嗎？可以吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，兩個具體的建議就是我們把傳統名字列入未來戶政人員的國家考試科目，當然這個是需要考量的，希望部長能朝這個方向來考慮一下，就是未來戶政人員的國家考試科目必須要了解原住民的……因為這也是修法通過的。第二個就是請你們定期跟原民會合作，增加原住民法規還有傳統名字的相關課程，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["高金委員素梅：第二個可能比較可行，第一個你們考慮一下，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個部分我們要跟考試院協商。"],["高金委員素梅：好，在最快的時間內也讓我能夠知道你們處理的狀況，謝謝部長。另外，我要請財團法人威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復基金會孫執行長，有在嗎？好，謝謝您，快一點，滿年輕的。從106年促進轉型正義條例到111年的威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例，一直到今（113）年民進黨又推出了不義遺址保存條例草案，全部都將威權統治時期定義為從中華民國34年8月15號到81年11月6號止，也就是說，僅僅針對中華民國政府在日本戰敗投降，接收臺灣之後，一直到金馬地區解除戰地政務為止，你了解這件事情吧？"],["孫執行長斌：了解。"],["高金委員素梅：你有什麼看法？"],["孫執行長斌：我們都是依照法律規定辦理。"],["高金委員素梅：如果法定之外的呢？因為你這個位置很重要，我講解一段日本時期原住民的歷史給你聽。抱歉，主席，再給我一點點時間。日本軍國主義在臺灣占領和殖民的行為，難道就不算威權嗎？年輕人，執行長，你好好聽一下，日本軍國主義對原住民曾經用過三光政策──殺光、搶光、燒光的理蕃政策，難道這些就不是不義嗎？所以年輕人，請你聽好，我們希望民進黨眼中的轉型正義，他們不要切割掉臺灣的主人，也就是原住民族在日據時期被不義行為侵害的事實，所以我要再一次的說轉型正義的指導思想是什麼呢？年輕人，你知道吧？"],["孫執行長斌：就是追求真相，避免再度發生。"],["高金委員素梅：對！既然是如此的話，我就要問了，我們的執政黨，對於所謂的位置，你是站在殖民者的位置，還是站在被殖民的位置？執行長你很重要，你這要回去好好思考，我堅持！我堅持轉型正義不能夠淪為轉盤正義，不能夠這個轉盤輪到誰家，就是正義；這個輪盤轉不到我家，就不是正義，你同意嗎？執行長。"],["孫執行長斌：我們想這個正義應該是有普世價值的。"],["高金委員素梅：普世價值？所以你同意我的說法對不對？好。","我在民國97年曾經用無黨聯盟的名義提案過原住民的土地法草案，這個草案內容是什麼？我也講給您聽。1895年，臺灣淪入日本軍國主義之手，原住民也經歷了歷史上最慘烈的時代，日本政府的理蕃政策，他們就是要全然消滅所有的蕃人還有蕃地，然後他殖民的最終目的就是為了要開發臺灣山林，取得豐富的資源，所以他們頒發了日令第26號，記得日令第26號，原住民第一個碰到所謂的法令就是說什麼？沒有所有權狀以及其他可以確定證明的山林原野通通屬於官有，就是蕃地等於無主地等於國有地。原住民在一夕之間，我們的土地通通淪為日本軍國主義所謂的國有土地。","所以執行長，這難道不是威權統治嗎？原住民的土地轉型正義難道不應該要從這裡開始嗎？所以今天召委在這邊排了所謂的轉型正義、所謂的不義遺址，我要說的是，如果大家認為一切的威權不義行為都是侵害、都需要被轉型正義來糾正的話，那麼我們就應該要把威權統治時期的時間定義在1895年，否則我認為這又是一樁樁所謂歷史記載的政治清算罷了。執行長，您聽到了吧？您很年輕，您幾歲？"],["孫執行長斌：我1977年出生。"],["高金委員素梅：好，我剛剛講的這段歷史，我希望你回去能夠理解好不好？你站在這個位置很重要，當然未來修法的同時，我也會堅持我們的立場，只不過很遺憾的，這個所謂的轉型正義條例，上一屆我們在談的時候就切割掉了原住民，我會繼續再努力，也希望你跟我站在同一個陣線上，可以嗎？"],["孫執行長斌：謝謝委員指教。"],["高金委員素梅：你如果需要一些資料的話，我可以提供給您。"],["孫執行長斌：好，謝謝委員。"],["高金委員素梅：加油！謝謝。"],["主席：我們請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-9","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","李柏毅","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","王美惠","高金素梅","黃建賓","吳琪銘","丁學忠","許宇甄","林德福","黃健豪","徐欣瑩","羅智強","洪孟楷","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","吳宗憲"],"page_start":79,"meetingDate":["2024-11-13"],"gazette_id":"1139701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中央政府總預算\n案關於內政部主管部分；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算內政部主管部分；\n四、審查內政部函送財團法人二二八事件紀念基金會等8家財團法人114年度預算書案；五、審查\n內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心114年度預算書案【所列預算案僅詢答，另訂時間處理】；\n六、審查「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例」修正草案，計八案：(一)審查行政\n院函請審議「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」\n案、(三)審查委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文\n修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例\n部分條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權\n利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「威權統治時期國家不法行\n為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員張雅琳等25人擬具「威權統治時期\n國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「威\n權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139701_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}