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readiness我們的這個各種武器設備他是做好準備的還是什麼"},{"start":494.164,"end":520.281,"text":"如果我們講這個軍頭這一塊軍事投資這一塊我們重點在建構不對稱戰力提升防衛的防衛韌性這一塊大家比較少注意但事實上這一塊也很重要強化後備戰力跟灰色地帶的應出我們每次要面對的灰色地帶應出對我們進行的消耗我們也要來致重點在這個四個項目來進行我們必要的這個自主的產製或者是籌購這樣對外籌購"},{"start":522.082,"end":550.427,"text":"所以我還是希望說在未來的美國的新政府開始之後那剛才已經包含王定永委員都有提到這個灰色地帶的這個硬處裡面我們的軍艦或者是說我們的海巡這跟國防部的業務無關那在租界上面的可能性這也是我們可以直接思考因為必須要面臨的是2027嘛現在的2025、25年嘛有些東西我們現在製造或許來不及那包含一些美方的國會議員都有提到相關的可能性我想這也是可以納入我們未來預算的考量就是說不是直接"},{"start":551.187,"end":559.425,"text":"重新製造或許太慢的話那盡量我們不用最新的我們要最適合現在的作戰形態的好謝謝謝謝陳委員好謝謝委員指教"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:09:03.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:09:04.965000+08:00","text":"主席好，我們請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-13T11:09:04.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:09:07.608000+08:00","text":"部長請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-13T11:09:07.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:09:12.133000+08:00","text":"剛才那個提案是照國防部修正通過。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-13T11:09:12.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:09:13.014000+08:00","text":"我補這一句。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:09:15.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:09:15.977000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:09:16.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:09:17.098000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:09:17.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:09:37.397000+08:00","text":"部長，我們上一次在10月23號的質詢裡面，有提到關於國防部內部的個人資料誤傳到內網上面，因為那個時候才剛發生一兩天，經過了兩、三個禮拜之後，國防部是不是比較可以跟我們分享一下現在處理的進度、狀況是怎麼樣？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:09:37.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:09:39.700000+08:00","text":"有沒有找到相關的人去究責？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:09:42.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:09:50.499000+08:00","text":"這個部分法務部的廉政署……是不是請政風室來說明一下？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"王主任鎮國","start":"2024-11-13T11:09:53.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:09:54.766000+08:00","text":"主席、委員好。你好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王主任鎮國","start":"2024-11-13T11:09:55.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:10:04.332000+08:00","text":"這部分法務部的廉政署已經在調查，就相關人員的責任，還有刑事責任正在處理中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:10:04.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:10:05.193000+08:00","text":"正在處理當中？對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:10:05.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:10:08.735000+08:00","text":"那想請教一下，國防部這邊是希望他們大概要處理多久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:10:08.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:10:10.316000+08:00","text":"有沒有一個時限？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:10:10.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:10:18.442000+08:00","text":"因為其實這個很快速就已經知道是由哪一位承辦人員，法務部廉政署派駐國防部政風室的委任三等助理員嘛！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:10:18.442000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T11:10:22.664000+08:00","text":"我想請教接下來的時序大概是要怎麼樣才會比較明朗的究責？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:10:22.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:10:36.592000+08:00","text":"我至今獲得的訊息是它都已經約詢了，後續處理我們都尊重廉政署，不過我想我們可以去了解一下它現在處理的進度。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:10:37.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:10:38.012000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:10:38.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:10:42.175000+08:00","text":"我認為這個部分也不是尊重廉政署，我們還是要有一點態度啦！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:10:42.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:10:54.022000+08:00","text":"畢竟是他們派員來這邊，那相關的……上次部長說沒有那麼機敏，但是算是機敏的資訊，懲處的速度跟懲處的對象要儘快把它明確化。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:10:54.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:10:58.605000+08:00","text":"就是究責這個事情還是要有，我們不可以說承辦人員很辛苦什麼之類的，不行！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:10:59.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:11:05.551000+08:00","text":"有錯必須要有當責的機制，不然所有機密的級等就沒有任何的意義。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:11:05.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:11:11.277000+08:00","text":"我們所做的任何的保密，包含我們今天講的臨時提案就沒有任何意義，就是必須要有一個究責的態度啦！","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:11:11.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:11:11.717000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:11:12.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:11:15.701000+08:00","text":"所以我們才會請外部的單位來進行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:11:16.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:11:27.952000+08:00","text":"第二個問題是，因為這個事情再加上之前有海軍、海巡、外交部等相關的機密遭駭，中華電信說要調查釐清外洩的原因。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:11:28.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:11:34.718000+08:00","text":"這個事情到現在我看已經有8、9個月了，不知道最新的狀況是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:11:34.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:11:40.503000+08:00","text":"部長如果有掌握到的話，或者是請國防部裡面其他海軍相關的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:11:42.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:11:44.166000+08:00","text":"您是說海巡、外交部的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:11:44.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:11:51.854000+08:00","text":"海軍、海巡、外交部等相關機敏資訊遭駭，中華電信說會釐清外洩原因。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:11:52.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:11:53.236000+08:00","text":"就是一些公文啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:11:53.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:12:03.026000+08:00","text":"包含外交部、國軍的機敏文件在暗網上面公開販售，這個之前我們在今年年中的時候好像也有質詢過，不知道相關的進度在哪裡？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"邱參謀長俊榮","start":"2024-11-13T11:12:04.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:12:05.770000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我是海軍參謀長。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"邱參謀長俊榮","start":"2024-11-13T11:12:06.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:12:17.955000+08:00","text":"當初因為整個的部分是不涉及機敏的部分，它只是當初契約履約的相關資料在條列裡面，但是經審後並沒有涉及到機敏的資訊。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:12:17.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:12:21.977000+08:00","text":"沒有機敏的資訊，所以這個也就只是公文外洩而已。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:12:22.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:12:23.418000+08:00","text":"因為沒有機敏資訊，所以……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱參謀長俊榮","start":"2024-11-13T11:12:23.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:12:32.062000+08:00","text":"公文外洩也是透過中華電信，因為它把我們一些相關的公文書的資料併在它的裡面，但在裡面只是一個招標的文件，不是機敏。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:12:32.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:12:37.107000+08:00","text":"就是它好像成立了一個……我記得好像是我還在國安會的時候……","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"邱參謀長俊榮","start":"2024-11-13T11:12:37.107000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T11:12:38.107000+08:00","text":"是，還在調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:12:38.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:12:43.715000+08:00","text":"我還在國安會的時候，我了解好像是中華電信成立了一個群組吧？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:12:43.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:12:44.676000+08:00","text":"好像是這樣子。是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:12:45.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:12:47.178000+08:00","text":"然後它有一些文件放在上面。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:12:47.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:12:51.623000+08:00","text":"經過調查，我們海軍應該沒有涉及機密的部分，應該是這樣子。是。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:12:53.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:12:57.826000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，沒有涉及機密當然就沒有相關究責的機制，但是……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:12:58.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:13:05.051000+08:00","text":"但是中華電信還是要做它的改善行為。好。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:13:05.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:13:10.055000+08:00","text":"我今天講這些東西的原因就是說，我還是認為人因的管理非常重要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:13:12.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:13:19.848000+08:00","text":"從我們上次看到廉政署派駐國防部的委任三等助理員，我想知道這些機密的層級到底是國防部決定，還是由法務部廉政署來決定？","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:13:20.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:13:21.230000+08:00","text":"還是由國安局決定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:13:21.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:13:26.678000+08:00","text":"還是由調查局決定一個人的接密層級，跟它定時要更新它接密的層級？","quality":0.655},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:13:28.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:13:46.270000+08:00","text":"我之前跟外交部談的時候，外交部說他們希望未來我們clearance的概念可以由國安局來統一做人事上面的確保，可是各種不同的說法滿多的，我想請教一下國防部的意見是怎麼樣？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:13:46.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:13:55.275000+08:00","text":"以後其他派駐到國防部這邊的承辦人員，那他的機密、接密層級是要由誰來審核？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:13:55.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:14:13.223000+08:00","text":"我們有政戰局的保防安全總隊，政戰局的保防安全總隊會做人員安全的查核，然後就他接密的等級，我們現在就由安全查核他的情況來核定他的接密等級。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:14:13.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:14:15.324000+08:00","text":"詳細的部分是不是請政戰局說明一下？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳局長育琳","start":"2024-11-13T11:14:17.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:14:17.495000+08:00","text":"委員好！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長育琳","start":"2024-11-13T11:14:17.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:14:33.084000+08:00","text":"我們現在正在建立我們所有接密人員的機制，將來就是要經過安全查核，合格之後才派任相關的機敏職務。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:14:33.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:14:35.226000+08:00","text":"現在正在建立這個機制了？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳局長育琳","start":"2024-11-13T11:14:35.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:14:36.306000+08:00","text":"已經在執行，原來就有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:14:36.306000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-13T11:14:37.306000+08:00","text":"原來就有的機制……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳局長育琳","start":"2024-11-13T11:14:36.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:14:36.646000+08:00","text":"對，我們現在強化。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:14:41.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:14:49.871000+08:00","text":"我希望他們要求類似美方這樣的一個機制，不是以他的階級，而是以他接密的程度……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳局長育琳","start":"2024-11-13T11:14:50.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:14:51.152000+08:00","text":"是，接密的程度。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:14:51.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:14:59.474000+08:00","text":"來進行一個更強化的安全查核程度，審定他能夠接觸機密的等級。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:14:59.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:15:05.398000+08:00","text":"這個安全查核的程度是需要去爭取到的，為什麼我要這麼講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:15:05.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:15:21.654000+08:00","text":"你必須要主動或者是被動地查核他過去接觸到的風險、他接觸到的密等跟他的身家背景，包含他出入一些敏感國家的次數，去做風險上面來調整、因應他的機密層級。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:15:21.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:15:26.157000+08:00","text":"我想美方是這樣子去做的，它是定期要去更新的。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:15:26.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:15:41.965000+08:00","text":"我這邊有一些相關的資訊，我們看到有一些離職的人員會帶著一些資料走，這就跟駭客無關，這跟你再建立幾百個防火牆都無關的，他是以人因為導向的。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:15:43.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:15:59.311000+08:00","text":"其實這個說法在接密層級，或者是你要定期更新你的接密層級這件事情，我認為還是要一個統一跨部門、跨部會的機制，我甚至認為應該是要有聯席會議，它不只是國防部，外交部是要用國防部的系統嗎？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:15:59.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:16:05.553000+08:00","text":"它是一個跨部會的，因為外交部的人員接密的時候，我們也看到有很多外交部相關的公文在流失嘛！","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:16:06.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:16:07.834000+08:00","text":"它的接密層級又是由誰訂的？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:16:08.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:16:26.002000+08:00","text":"當然現在不是國防部的事情，但是總是要有一個部門去統整，不要說讓政府這些部門通常要聯席會議的時候，或者是通常他們要聯合辦公的時候或聯合處理一件重要的事情，比方說出訪的時候，彼此之間的密等沒有統一、沒有協調，我想這是我們要擔心的事情。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:16:26.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:16:28.623000+08:00","text":"接下來我們談一下國防預算的提升。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:16:29.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:16:47.986000+08:00","text":"部長，最近不管是在金融時報，剛剛幾位委員也有問，或者是各個不同的智庫、媒體都有提到希望臺灣的國防預算提到5%，國防預算的提高代表其他預算有可能會相應地要調整。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:16:48.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:16:56.154000+08:00","text":"但是我還是要強調，我們國防預算的提高，重點是我們要具備什麼樣的能力，包括我們要買什麼樣的裝備，以及我們要做什麼樣的訓練。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:16:56.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:17:00.556000+08:00","text":"金融時報有說什麼F35等等各種不同的武器系統。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:17:00.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:17:07.319000+08:00","text":"我想請教部長，此時此刻不用跟我講具體的裝備名稱，最需要的是什麼樣的方向？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:17:07.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:17:15.183000+08:00","text":"是後勤要確保我們的readiness，我們各種武器設備是做好準備的，還是什麼？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:17:16.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:17:28.732000+08:00","text":"如果我們講軍事投資這一塊，我們重點是在建構不對稱戰力，提升防衛韌性這一塊大家比較少注意，但事實上這一塊也很重要。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-11-13T11:17:29.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:17:42.281000+08:00","text":"強化後備戰力跟灰色地帶的應處，我們每日要面對的灰色地帶應處，對我們進行的消耗，重點在這4個項目，進行我們必要的自主產製或者是對外籌購。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:17:44.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:18:01.085000+08:00","text":"所以我還是希望，未來美國新政府開始之後……剛才包含王定宇委員都有提到灰色地帶的應處裡面，我們的軍艦或者是說我們的海巡，這跟國防部的業務無關，在租借上面的可能性，這也是我們可以直接思考的，因為必須要面臨的是2027嘛！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:18:01.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:18:11.427000+08:00","text":"現在才2025年，有些東西我們現在製造或許來不及，包含一些美方的國會議員都有提到相關的可能性，我想這也可以納入我們未來預算的考量。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-11-13T11:18:13.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-13T11:18:18.980000+08:00","text":"重新製造或許太慢的話，那儘量……我們不用最新的，我們要最適合現在作戰型態的。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-13T11:18:19.56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Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","陳培瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-13"],"gazette_id":"1139702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支公開及機密部分（不含國家安全局部分)\n（僅詢答）；二、審查 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於國防部主管非營業基金：\n（僅詢答）(一)作業基金：1、國軍生產及服務作業基金、2、國軍老舊眷村改建基金、3、國防\n醫學院軍事教育基金；(二)資本計畫基金─國軍營舍及設施改建基金","agenda_id":"1139702_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}