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署長他持續在跟我們做技術上的一些討論對那他一直在修正他的系統對所以這段時間他其實很努力對沒關係本來想說高風險的話讓他先上沒關係 署長我還是要講那句話不可以這樣子啦不可以他叫很努力嘛"},{"start":424.493,"end":450.458,"text":"那個齁今天就是台灣跟韓國12強的比賽那個台北市政府齁說那個大巨蛋會漏水台北市政府都告訴遠雄公司啊幾月幾號如果你的漏水沒有修好我就按日處罰那現在呢修好了沒還是還沒修好啊所以台北市政府就開始罰了我跟你講啦你講幾月幾號他都不一定可以做得到啦詐騙的問題比大巨蛋這個嚴重100倍啊"},{"start":453.399,"end":453.88,"text":"我們11月底我們就把"},{"start":475.032,"end":489.666,"text":"11月底一併公告啦好不好你們剛剛講我沒有意見你們要去怎麼做比如說好我針對幾個大的平台業者我告訴你們你們就是幾月幾號開始凡沒有實名制的都不可以給我上架"},{"start":490.487,"end":500.677,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算"},{"start":513.61,"end":529.41,"text":"例如說你廣告量大的那就怎麼樣可是我還是不贊成廣告量大啦因為詐騙的業者他那有廣告量一定大所以你都限制那些合法的業者要實名制那真的詐騙那一群人他廣告量一定不會很大嘛"},{"start":530.231,"end":554.131,"text":"那你還是讓詐騙的繼續詐騙我們先從高風險說高風險就是說公眾人物他很有名然後他的廣告這些人一定要實名制對啦但是這個齁不是詐騙的本意嘛來我秀一張圖給你看啦你看齁你看齁這個齁用那個張國偉的照片嘛對不對阿這個就是高風險對"},{"start":557.139,"end":571.57,"text":"問題是問題是廣告的人叫DSG啊廣告的人不是張國偉你跟張國偉說你來就要實名制張國偉的受害者他不是去他去買的啊"},{"start":572.834,"end":594.285,"text":"這一這個是什麼時候這個是現在的狀況啦我隨便在網路上找這太多了我隨便擷取一張這是現在現在是什麼公告會公告法令會修法了公告會公告完了就等著你什麼時候這個實施嘛那此刻你有法規你看喔勘剝者出資者的資訊在這裡"},{"start":595.984,"end":612.737,"text":"他用了張國偉的照片 這一個人的廣告量大嗎 這個人的廣告量一定不大 對不對那你限制廣告量大 你限制張國偉說張國偉你如果要廣告你的實名是因為你是知名人物 我就沒有廣告我就是受害者嘛"},{"start":613.217,"end":632.109,"text":"那個報告委員兩個禮拜前Meta才公布一個技術他以後會偵測照片跟名字所以有這個技術以後這種廣告就不會再出現就是說照片是張國偉阿名字不是張國偉是啦那我的意思是說我們法規你那個是你現在要做這個偵測"},{"start":633.61,"end":647.073,"text":"你很簡單嘛你現在做這個偵測是就算你還沒有開始公告實施你也可以去偵測嘛但是我的公告實施完之後我就是要告訴你說這DSG是誰你要實名制嘛為什麼"},{"start":648.255,"end":669.084,"text":"我接下來就要抓這個人了我還跟你在那邊裸細沙咧我就直接抓這個嘛你現在是還不能抓他因為沒有實名字所以你根本不知道他是誰啊他今天叫DSG明天叫ABC啊你現在懂我的意思嗎所以我的意思就是說你要趕快落實平台業者最好的方式就是你跟Meta說啊"},{"start":670.219,"end":684.008,"text":"一月幾號開始如果你還給我弄這個DSG不知道是誰的我就直接罰你250萬到1億嘛這個就是我要求的啊這個不可以再拖啦這個拖了就沒意思了那個已經"},{"start":685.111,"end":691.236,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算。"},{"start":711.038,"end":720.507,"text":"我不相信一天才發一頁,我看他多快發啊!啊你就再叫批一批啊!部長真的要加油,你看齁我都看到報紙那個兆豐啊!"},{"start":721.861,"end":722.361,"text":"蔡其昌 蔡其昌 蔡其昌"},{"start":748.7,"end":775.599,"text":"你開始喝咖啡我說咖啡接下來可不可以泡男喝一點他再繼續不搞你就改毒藥怎麼喝咖啡那麼好民眾齁被詐騙的人部長辛辛苦苦一輩子的血汗錢就這樣被詐騙這個事件不是少數啊如果說齁他一輩子得到招小偷一輩子可能一次啦他也沒看過小偷長什麼樣子"},{"start":777.16,"end":797.918,"text":"可是他在生活裡面面對詐騙他是無時無刻在處理這個問題所以本席為什麼急我們沒有辦法再拖啦這種東西每天人民都在面對這種苦難所以我們行政機關、立法機關我們要苦民所苦他想要老百姓現在他在擔憂什麼問題所以本席為什麼會那麼積極"},{"start":802.708,"end":828.109,"text":"你們這樣不配合我就不相信治不了你人民的苦難面對這些財團我們難道沒有什麼更積極更有作為的做法嗎部長我真的告訴你一句你只要把打詐做好你這抒發部就永留青史啦你這個部長就永留青史我痛恨詐騙啦我也知道我沒有質疑你不痛恨啦只是說方法跟手段啦"},{"start":829.065,"end":858.232,"text":"我說兆豐人家都會想到說不然我也盡一點力氣我不給他廣告這個這就是手勞嘛這就是風範不是只有我我也相信你很討厭這個詐騙你恨之入所以兆豐這個很好的意思我們公司協力一起來把這個問題解決掉是啦就是你要有方法我的意思就是說這個是速發部的主線兆豐啦或者其他民間企業這個都是輔助啦"},{"start":859.437,"end":878.361,"text":"我們負責主線的人真的最重要啦好不好因為我本來要問很多題的這個一題就已經時間就到了主席都已經站很久了啦加油啦這個常常想到人民真的這個詐騙不行這個台灣不可以這個樣子好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":459,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時53分）謝謝主席，請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早。部長，我想早上大概前面幾個委員也都針對打詐的事情就教你，本席從第一次質詢你開始，我就一直在強調，在臺灣詐騙沒有銷聲匿跡之前，大概本席對數發部質詢的重中之重就是打詐，所以本席是延續著打詐的議題來請教。113年5月15號我們為了打詐通過電子簽章法，7月也通過詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，現在的進度應該是數發部要針對下面的子法或者相關的辦法、規則訂定整體的配套，對吧？"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：我看了一下時間，9月你們就公告，10月已經公告完畢了，是這樣嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們先公告哪一些網路廣告平臺公司要被納管，所以9月公告，10月底要求他們提出文件來申請，就是要……"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思是，立法院通過修法，到現在為止對於詐騙，我們還沒有辦法根據通過的電子簽章法、實名制等等，是因為數發部針對這個法令的配套相關規定還沒有完成嘛。"],["黃部長彥男：11月30日會公告子法。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，換言之，11月30日公告完之後就沒有其他法規的問題了，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我們過去宣告12月30日，現在等於提早1個月，是嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，這個本席非常地肯定。我的意思只是在想為什麼10月就完成所有的公告，然後要再拖2個月，是不是有什麼困難？所以你們提早1個月，這個就是本席第一點要講的，我不希望再拖。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為這個空窗期實在拖太久，對外立法院都已經三讀通過，立法院是最困難的，要把朝野的意見都整合、把社會各界的意見都整合，落實在法規裡面，最困難的我們都完成了，反而部裡面行政的相關子法、配套沒有辦法快速地完成，這個對社會沒有辦法交代，不然我們都信誓旦旦，行政院宣稱、我們立法院也宣稱，法令都修了，對於打詐，我們祭出雷厲風行的手段，結果看起來這幾個月民眾覺得好像也沒有什麼感覺，所以這個要快速。"],["黃部長彥男：好，瞭解。"],["蔡委員其昌：第二個問題就來了，你們11月30日公告之後，我想請問一下，這幾個大的平臺業者根據這些法規、法令、包括你們配套的相關規定，他們什麼時候開始落實實名制？"],["黃部長彥男：我們跟這些平臺商過去幾個月在溝通上，就是所謂的喝咖啡的時候都有談，他們都答應在明年初會開始落實。"],["蔡委員其昌：不能講「明年初」，因為講明年初不知道是幾月……"],["黃部長彥男：應該是1月。"],["蔡委員其昌：1月嘛？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，你要不要直接告訴相關的平臺商，就是1月1號開始實施，或者1月30日開始實施，或者1月31號開始實施？"],["黃部長彥男：日期有跟他們再明說嗎？"],["蔡委員其昌：這個應該要明講，不可以再讓他們混了，否則還是一樣，立法院修法，行政機關相關的配套都做好了，然後現在開始進到第三關，我們開始問平臺業者什麼時候要做呀？"],["黃部長彥男：1月1號開始導入實名制，剛剛其實在上個委員質詢的時候也有講，我們先從高風險，就是公眾……"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有關係，其實大家還是在乎譬如最大宗那幾個，你看Meta占了詐騙……我上一次已經把圖都畫給大家看了。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，它的比率多高？"],["黃部長彥男：八、九成。"],["蔡委員其昌：對嘛，上一次我已經公告過了，換言之，我們在打詐的時候，只要鎖定幾個大的對象，九成就差不多都囊括在裡面了，剩下的部分當然也要做，但是你先讓大家有感，從做幾個大咖的下去就已經九成了。"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：還是老問題，到底你公告的是幾月幾號？"],["黃部長彥男：11月底公告，1月1號開始……"],["蔡委員其昌：我知道它開始實施，業者一定會跟你說要有一個緩衝期，它要改程式、要做什麼一大堆，然後就又跟你講不知道民國幾月幾號才要開始落實。"],["黃部長彥男：1月1號就會實施，就像剛剛講的，先從高風險的廣告客戶落實。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以高風險的廣告客戶是1月1號開始，在那裡做廣告就要實名了，是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：對，包括大的廣告商。"],["蔡委員其昌：我覺得這個應該要講清楚，就是1月1號，換言之，1月1號沒有做，你就不准它廣告，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：就是高風險的、廣告量大的，或者是像公眾人物這種。"],["蔡委員其昌：不是，「廣告量大」的定義是什麼？"],["黃部長彥男：就是它會吸引很多流量的廣告。"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思是這樣，Meta實施實名制以後，沒有實名制的，它都不可以上架，這個在1月1號可不可以做得到？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛講的，不是一開始，我們聽到的不是全面，但至少對高風險的……"],["蔡委員其昌：不、不、不，部長，我還是要再一次地講，你如果沒有公告一個很明確的時間，它就會給你拖，你公告了時間，你說要分階段實施，沒有關係，你就告訴我幾月幾號要實施什麼？"],["黃部長彥男：的確會分階段，這個請署長來說明。"],["蔡委員其昌：來，署長。"],["林代理署長俊秀：它持續與我們做技術上的一些討論，也一直在修正它的系統，所以這段時間它其實很努力，我們本來想說高風險就讓它先上。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒關係，署長，我還是要講那句話：不可以這樣子啦！不可以說它很努力嘛！今天是臺灣與韓國的十二強比賽，臺北市政府說大巨蛋會漏水，因此臺北市政府告訴遠雄公司，如果幾月幾號漏水沒有修好就要按日處罰，現在呢？修好了沒？仍然還沒修好啊！所以臺北市政府就開始罰了。我告訴你，你說幾月幾號，它都不一定做得到啦！"],["黃部長彥男：委員，我們……"],["蔡委員其昌：詐騙的問題比大巨蛋的問題嚴重100倍，因此，不可以拖、不可以現在告訴我，有啦！他們已經很認真了，我們大約就是幾號。很簡單嘛！這個有罰則，如果幾月幾號沒有做，我就是要罰你。"],["黃部長彥男：我們會把時程很清楚地寫出來。"],["蔡委員其昌：什麼時候可以公告讓大家知道？"],["林代理署長俊秀：11月底子法公布的時候，我們……"],["蔡委員其昌：11月底一併公告啦！，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：對於你們剛剛講的，我沒有意見，你們要怎麼做，譬如針對幾個大型的平台業者，告訴他們就是幾月幾號開始，凡是沒有實名制的都不可以上架，不然我就要開始處罰你。必須要說得很白話喔！開始處罰喔！處罰的罰則也有了喔！從多少錢到多少錢？"],["黃部長彥男：從二百多萬元到1億元都可以。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，二百多萬元到1億元，就要開始罰喔！要給我開始罰！","第二個，如果你要限制廣告量大的業主，這也是一個方法，譬如廣告量大的就怎麼樣，但我還是不贊成廣告量大啦！因為詐騙業者哪有廣告量就一定大，所以你都限制那些合法的業者要實名制，但是真的詐騙的那群人廣告量一定不會很大，你還是讓詐騙者繼續詐騙。"],["黃部長彥男：我們先從高風險著手，所謂的高風險就是公眾人物，因為他們很有名，所以這些人的廣告一定要實名制。"],["蔡委員其昌：對啦！但這個不是詐騙的本意，我秀一張圖給你看，你看這是用張國煒的照片，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：這個就是高風險。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，問題是廣告的人叫Dsg啊！廣告的人不是張國煒，你卻告訴張國煒刊登廣告就要實名制，但張國煒就是受害者，廣告不是他去買的啊！這是什麼時候？這個是現在的狀況，我隨便在網路上找的，實在是太多了。我隨便擷取一張，現在是什麼？法令也修法了、公告也公告完了，現在就等著你什麼時候實施嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：此刻你有法規，你看刊播者、出資者的資訊在這裡，他用了張國煒的照片，這個人的廣告量大嗎？這個人的廣告量一定不大，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：你限制廣告量大的、你限制張國煒刊登廣告必須要實名制，因為他是知名人物。很抱歉！他就沒有刊登廣告、他就是受害者嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，兩個禮拜前Meta才公布一個技術，以後它會偵測照片與名字，有了這個技術之後，以後這種廣告就不會再出現，也就是照片是張國煒，但名字不是張國煒。"],["蔡委員其昌：是啦！我的意思是我們的法規……現在你要做這個偵測，很簡單嘛！你現在做這個偵測，就算你還沒有開始公告實施，也是可以去偵測嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：但是我認為公告實施完之後就是要告訴你這個Dsg是誰。"],["黃部長彥男：對，就不一樣……"],["蔡委員其昌：你要實名制嘛！為什麼？我接下來就要抓這個人了，還跟你在那邊五四三咧！我就直接抓這個嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：現在你還不能抓他，因為沒有實名制，所以你根本不知道他是誰啊！今天他叫Dsg、明天叫ABC啊！你現在懂我的意思嗎？我的意思就是你要趕快落實，針對平台業者最好的方式就是你要告訴Meta，1月幾號開始，如果還有這種Dsg不知道是誰的狀況，我就直接罰你250萬元到1億元，這個就是我要求的啊！這個不可以再拖啦！再拖下去就沒意思了！已經三讀拚到這樣讓它通過，再來你們數發部也提早了，原本是12月30日現在提早到11月30日，對不對？結果接下來換它拖，一定拖的啦！我告訴你，如果你不給它一個時間，它一定會拖啦！我就告訴你一個時間，現在才11月初，我就告訴你，Meta公司從什麼時候開始如果沒有做到，我就按日處罰你。我就不相信如果一天罰1億元，它能多禁得起這樣的處罰，但你們就裝得皮皮的，部長，真的要加油！","我看到報紙有報導兆豐，它不是數發部耶！法令都給你們數發部了，但你們也只是喝咖啡而已，兆豐是直接說它不下廣告耶！還號召金融同業，大家不要在Meta下廣告，這個叫做「步數」啦！部長，我在這個台上問過你很多次、也質詢過你很多次，之前我告訴過你，接下來喝咖啡時可以泡難喝一點，如果它再繼續不改，你就換成毒藥，什麼喝咖啡，哪有那麼好！部長，民眾辛辛苦苦一輩子的血汗錢，這樣就被詐騙了，而且這個事件不是少數。如果是遭小偷可能一輩子就一次，他也沒看過小偷長什麼樣子，但他在生活中卻是無時無刻要面對詐騙的問題。因此，為什麼本席會著急，我們沒有辦法再拖啦！每天人民都在面對這種東西、這種苦難，因此，我們行政機關、立法機關要苦民所苦、要想到老百姓現在擔憂的是什麼問題。因此，為什麼本席會那麼積極？既然你們這樣不配合，我就不相信治不了你。人民的苦難，面對這些財團，難道我們沒有更積極、更有作為的作法嗎？部長，我真的要告訴你一句，你只要把打詐做好，數發部就會永留青史、你這個部長就會永留青史。"],["黃部長彥男：我痛恨詐騙，所以打詐……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我也知道、我沒有質疑你不痛恨，只是方法與手段啊！兆豐都會想到不然就盡一點力氣，所以就不要給它廣告，這個就是「手路」、這個就是方法。我也相信你很討厭詐騙、你也是恨之入骨……"],["黃部長彥男：兆豐是一個很好的例子，我們公私協力一起把這個問題解決掉。"],["蔡委員其昌：是啦！你就是要有方法，因為這個就是數發部的主線，兆豐或其他民間企業都是輔助啦！我們負責主線的人真的最重要啦！好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：原本我要問很多題，但光是這一題，時間就已經到了，而主席也已經站了很久。加油啦！常常想到人民，真的，這個詐騙不行，臺灣不可以這個樣子，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌委員。","接下來請魯明哲召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":246,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-9","speakers":["陳素月","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","游顥","何欣純","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","廖先翔","邱若華","陳雪生","賴士葆","黃國昌","吳春城","林月琴","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳培瑜"],"page_start":185,"meetingDate":["2024-11-13"],"gazette_id":"1139801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部資通安全署單位預算；二、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於數位發展部數位產業署單位預算","agenda_id":"1139801_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}