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前董事長施敬渝說為什麼他突然被罰官是因為他擋人財路所以他被撤職那麼這個呂政章坐了三天就離開的董事長呢"},{"start":255.031,"end":268.809,"text":"他說因為現在外傳是因為大老闆就是我們賴清德總統震怒所以我剛剛講說如果你要擔你就去擔喔我覺得這件事情總是要有人把責任擔起來的李建昌到底是從哪裡從天上掉下來的禮物嗎"},{"start":271.36,"end":286.927,"text":"然後搞到整個高層人事大亂整個政府的威信被破壞走人就了事了嗎好 呂政章在離開台灣經典說有人怕我上任掀太多問題"},{"start":289.581,"end":302.917,"text":"請問一下部長台灣今年有什麼問題他說有人怕他掀太多問題一個說我離開是擋人財路一個說我離開是有人怕我掀太多問題台灣今年到底有什麼問題啊"},{"start":304.799,"end":322.494,"text":"部長跟委員報告個人他的辭呈他已經寫得很清楚他為了避免行政團隊一些困擾他辭職這我們尊重他那至於他們個人這說了什麼話我覺得這個東西這個不必去再做過多的一些參與這什麼叫做不必再做過多的公私的辭職台灣今年董事長三天就離開然後你們覺得不用再多說了離開就離開"},{"start":332.302,"end":346.476,"text":"你們把高層人士當成兒戲嗎在座這麼多位的我們國營金控的董事長、總經理每一個都要被檢視啊是不是今天突然憑空而降出來的一個造成這麼大的問題三天就離開該不該有人負責啊"},{"start":357.328,"end":383.314,"text":"委員報告他都還沒有就任他就任三天所謂的問題我不知道是什麼樣的一個問題是在哪裡因為他還沒有去他只有三天而已特別跟部長說公司有公司治理的一個規則對不對土地的處分他是一個非常專業估價要經過三家估價公司的一個評估他不是說隨便可以那請問一下施進群又不是我當董事長是施進群當董事長那麼多年他說哎呀不要賤賣國土"},{"start":386.095,"end":402.751,"text":"所以我在這邊要特別提醒因為我們新任董事長不知道什麼時候才在發布啦但是呢台灣今年因為他擁有非常非常多的土地過去就曾經被媒體質疑我也曾經質詢過台灣今年不要成為一個草作地皮的幫兇"},{"start":408.596,"end":430.307,"text":"因為過去在南部都有指控台灣今年有養地的問題有炒作土地的問題那個是在施俊吉擔任董事長任內然後這次子子這個跟那個工業區雲林的工業區有相關所以我要求的是我們所有的金控公司大家都擁有這麼多的資產"},{"start":433.25,"end":438.177,"text":"台灣金聯當年是為了要去解決我們金融機構的不良資產"},{"start":439.978,"end":459.805,"text":"結果輪給呂正章家族就是製造不良資產的所以部長你怎麼還會在這邊講說他其實是有資格的檢視過他的背景如果你檢視過他的背景家族就是製造不良資產的然後你讓他去處理我們所有金融機構的不良資產像話嗎太丟臉了"},{"start":465.336,"end":484.321,"text":"他的家族是他的父親跟他弟弟你知不知道這個公司他是大股東啊你知不知道他這個公司他控股他自己當任董事長就是這家跳票倒閉製造不良資產的大股東啊你知道嗎你不知道您說是哪一家大股東"},{"start":485.427,"end":504.772,"text":"就是若活輕鬆公司啊造成農業金庫5000萬的呆帳對 是農業金庫沒錯農業金庫5000萬呆帳這家公司他說他是他爸爸說是他的什麼弟弟可是他自己本身是這家公司的大股東你們有查過嗎丟臉吶怎麼會如此兒喜所以不知道你難道不知道嗎他本來要去農業金庫欸"},{"start":514.77,"end":527.133,"text":"他本來是要去安插到農業金庫欸農業金庫的這些農漁會代表們覺得怎麼可能這樣造成我們這家農業金庫幾千萬呆帳的家族竟然來這邊來當董事長後來還好那個黨下來了如果到農業金庫更丟臉所以部長啊我知道這樣的人士啊絕對來自於高層啊"},{"start":543.769,"end":552.234,"text":"但是拜託今天既然不管國庫署也好部長也好今天的我們核庫監控也好你們能不能做最後一點點的把關的工作能不能啊當然我們會做"},{"start":564.482,"end":574.886,"text":"我這邊講這個李政章的問題是我之前就已經都提供過包含農業金庫當選人家農業金庫至少人家還知道把它擋出去耶結果沒想到竟然找來找去找到我們台灣金聯了還真會找耶有關係就沒關係嗎今天我們有多少"},{"start":587.95,"end":602.667,"text":"有金融背景出生於基層的就是真的戰戰兢兢的在我們這些公營行庫來幫助守住最後一道防線的情何以堪"},{"start":605.441,"end":625.959,"text":"所以老實講我今天花了我很多時間我其實還要問很多的問題可是我覺得這件事情因為我自己以前就是跑金融我覺得過去歷任不管是民進黨執政、國民黨執政還真的沒有出現這麼醜的事情過去醜有很多我也提出過很多但是還沒有發生過這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":629.059,"end":651.51,"text":"你這樣子的話老實講我們這次在處理預算問題我本來還要再問包括我們在抽獎出包的問題這也是財政部國庫局啊那個國稅局然後那個四個重複中獎對不起主席我花一點那個四個重複中獎你們反正都說沒問題沒問題"},{"start":654.079,"end":677.996,"text":"然後另外你們一個活動十幾個都是姓彭的出現龐大的彭家軍得獎部隊你們有回復嗎?你們有對外說明嗎?然後現在搞到現在說哎呀現在中獎不公告了用私訊來通知得獎人做得真好黑箱到底"},{"start":679.753,"end":701.568,"text":"委員沒有所謂的黑箱那至於這家公司它的撰寫邏輯、撰寫程式的邏輯是不是有問題已經跟中獎者之間的關係我們已經移請調查局我們是主動請調查局來偵查另外我有一個要求你們說以後呢中獎通知用私訊通知中獎人不再公告"},{"start":702.469,"end":714.998,"text":"不可以必須公告以遭公信我們一定會秉著誠信公開公平的原則一定會照這樣做所以不能再用私訊來通知要公告"},{"start":721.503,"end":745.303,"text":"哪裏說就不公告了讓你們看不到為了怕這些得獎者他不知道我們另外再通知他還是會公告的是一個臉書的通知的方式所以你們去通知是另外一回事但是你一定要公告這個文字有公告是大家沒有看到誤解了謝謝委員謝謝洪薇接著請羅民財委員花言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1194,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時1分）謝謝主席，請財政部長及合庫金控董事長。"],["主席：請莊部長及合庫金控董事長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。部長，剛才珊珊委員講到的貨物稅，其實大家都知道貨物稅根本不是一個好稅，而且完全不合時宜，只是因為它的稅收實在太多了，到明年有1,500億元，財政部是捨不得貨物稅這塊大餅，當年貨物稅就是為了要增加稅收，才會出現這麼多已經不合時宜的相關規定。","為什麼我會請合庫金控董事長也一起上台，因為我想請問部長及董事長，關於前一陣子引起軒然大波的台灣金聯董事長任命案。請問部長，這位呂政璋做了3天就離開台灣金聯董事長的職務，到底是誰任命的？"],["莊部長翠雲：報告委員，台灣金聯是公民營相關金融機構組成……"],["王委員鴻薇：他是誰的代表？"],["莊部長翠雲：他是合庫銀行的股權代表。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問董事長，是誰指示你？因為呂政璋過去與合庫毫無淵源，是誰指示你將合庫代表改派呂政璋？"],["林董事長衍茂：按照規定，這個核定權在行政院。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以是行政院指示合庫法人代表改派呂政璋，是嗎？"],["林董事長衍茂：之前我也與呂先生聯絡過，我也有請呂……"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道啊！就是你們找他去啊！改派法人代表嘛！"],["林董事長衍茂：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你接到的指令是來自於行政院，哪個單位呢？部長嗎？是財政部長或是國庫署或是行政院更高層，董事長？"],["林董事長衍茂：都是國庫署與我聯繫。"],["王委員鴻薇：國庫署？"],["林董事長衍茂：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請問部長，讓呂政璋擔任法人代表是來自於哪個單位的指示？是你指示的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：報告委員，第一個，他要擔任台灣金聯董事長當然必須是股權代表，所以這樣的人選是經過討論之後，認為他的資歷……"],["王委員鴻薇：是與誰討論？所以是財政部的討論？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想大家就他的資歷及經歷都要做一個討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以財政部認為他的學經歷背景通通足以擔任台灣金聯董事長嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：一個公司有公司治理的規則……"],["王委員鴻薇：是不是嘛？我現在就是要找，既然你願意擔，我就讓你擔啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊！我覺得他在資格上應該是符合的，而且大家也期待有關的事業機構能夠有新的思維及創新的作為。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這個人選是由你決定嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想最後當然是由行政院核定。"],["王委員鴻薇：還是行政院，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，是行政院核定。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，現在外面的傳聞很多，連卓榮泰院長都認為這個人選並不OK，因此現在傳出是來自於總統府潘孟安秘書長的指示及要求，確實是如此嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我對這個傳聞並不清楚。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你也無法證實？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們無法證實。"],["王委員鴻薇：台灣金聯董事長短短3天就離職，我們來看一下，前董事長施俊吉說他突然被拔官是因為擋人財路，所以他被撤職。這位做了3天就離開的呂政璋董事長，現在外傳是因為大老闆，也就是賴清德總統震怒，所以剛剛我說如果你要擔就去擔喔！我覺得這件事情總是要有人將責任擔起來，難道呂政璋是從天上掉下來的禮物嗎？然後搞到整個高層人士大亂、整個政府的威信被破壞，走人就了事了嗎？呂政璋離開台灣金聯時說有人怕他上任後掀太多問題，請問部長，台灣金聯有什麼問題，他說有人怕他掀太多問題？一個說自己離開是因為擋人財路、一個說自己離開是有人怕他掀太多問題，台灣金聯到底有什麼問題啊？部長？"],["莊部長翠雲：報告委員，他個人的辭呈已經寫得很清楚，為了避免行政團隊的一些困擾才辭職，所以我們尊重他，至於他個人說了什麼話，我覺得不必再做過多的揣測。"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼叫做不必再做過多的解釋？台灣金聯的董事長耶！"],["莊部長翠雲：公司的治理有它的內稽內控。"],["王委員鴻薇：3天就離開，你們覺得不用再多說了，離開就離開，你們把高層人士當作兒戲嗎？在座這麼多位國營金控的董事長及總經理，每一位都要被檢視啊！是不是？今天突然憑空而降，造成這麼大的問題，3天就離開，該不該有人負責啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：報告委員，他都還沒有就任，而且就任3天，所謂的問題，我不知道是什麼樣的問題，而且問題在哪裡？他也只有沾邊而已。"],["王委員鴻薇：我在此要特別告訴部長……"],["莊部長翠雲：公司有公司治理的規則，對不對？土地的處分是非常的專業，估價要經過3家估價公司的評估，並不是隨便就可以處理的事。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，又不是我當董事長，而是施俊吉擔任了那麼多年的董事長，他說不要賤賣國土，所以我在這邊要特別提醒，因為新任董事長不知道何時會再發布，但是台灣金聯擁有非常多的土地，過去就曾經被媒體質疑，而且我也曾經質詢過，台灣金聯不要成為一個炒作地皮的幫兇。過去在南部都曾指控台灣金聯有養地的問題、有炒作土地的問題，那個是在施俊吉擔任董事長的任內，然而這次是直指與雲林工業區相關，因此我要求所有的金控公司，大家都擁有這麼多的資產，而台灣金聯當年是為了要解決金融機構的不良資產，結果呂政璋的家族就是製造不良資產的，部長，你怎麼會在這裡說他其實是有資格的，檢視過他的背景嗎？如果你檢視過他的背景，家族就是製造不良資產的，你還讓他去處理我們所有金融機構的不良資產，像話嗎？太丟臉了！"],["莊部長翠雲：他的家族是他的父親與他的弟弟，並不是他本人。"],["王委員鴻薇：你知不知道他是這個公司的大股東？你知不知道他在這個公司控股，自己擔任董事長？他就是這家跳票倒閉製造不良資產的大股東啊！你知道嗎？你不知道！"],["莊部長翠雲：你說是哪家的大股東？"],["王委員鴻薇：就是樂活輕鬆購公司啊！造成農業金庫5,000萬的呆帳。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，是農業金庫。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒錯！農業金庫5,000萬的呆帳。他說這家公司是他爸爸的、說是他弟弟的，但他本身就是這家公司的大股東，你們有查過嗎？丟臉啊！怎麼會如此兒戲！難道你不知道嗎？他本來要去農業金庫耶！他本來是要安插到農業金庫耶！農業金庫的這些農漁會代表們覺得怎麼可能這樣，造成這家農業金庫幾千萬呆帳的家族，竟然要被安插到這邊擔任董事長，還好後來被擋下來了。如果是去農業金庫，那就更丟臉了。部長，我知道這樣的人事絕對來自於高層，但是我要拜託，不管是國庫署也好，部長也好，或是合庫金控也好，你們能不能做最後一點點的把關工作？能不能啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然我們會做。"],["王委員鴻薇：呂政彰的問題是我之前就都已經提供過了，包含農業金庫，但是人家農業金庫至少還知道把他擋出去，結果沒想到找來找去竟然找到台灣金聯，還真會找欸，有關係就沒關係嗎？今天有多少有金融背景而出身於基層的人戰戰兢兢在公營行庫幫助守住最後一道防線，他們情何以堪？老實講我今天花了很多時間，我其實還要問很多問題，可是我覺得這件事情，因為我自己以前就是跑金融，我覺得過去歷任不管是民進黨執政或是國民黨執政，還真的沒有出現這麼醜的事情耶！過去酬庸很多，我也提出過很多，但是還沒有發生過這樣的狀況。你這樣子的話，老實講，我們這次在處理預算問題，我本來還要問及抽獎出包的問題，這也是財政部國稅局啊！對不起，主席，我花一點時間講一下，四個人重複中獎，你們反正都說沒問題、沒問題；另外你們有一個活動，十幾個都是姓彭的，出現龐大的彭家軍得獎部隊，你們有回復嗎？你們有對外說明嗎？然後搞到現在說中獎不公告了，用私訊來通知得獎人，做得真好，黑箱到底！"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，沒有所謂的黑箱。至於這家公司撰寫程式的邏輯是不是有問題……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們有沒有移送？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們已經移請調查局了，我們是主動請調查局來偵查。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們有移送檢調？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外我有一個要求，你們說以後中獎是用私訊通知中獎人，不再公告，不可以，必須公告以昭公信。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我跟委員報告，我們一定會秉著誠信、公開、公平的原則，一定會照這樣做，臺北國稅局這樣的貼文，我覺得要再處理……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以不能再用私訊通知，要公告！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳局長蓮英：本來是有公告……"],["王委員鴻薇：哪裡？哪裡說就不公告了？讓你們看不到……"],["吳局長蓮英：為了怕這些得獎者不知道，我們另外再通知他，是以臉書通知的方式。"],["莊部長翠雲：還是會公告啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：好，你們去通知是另外一回事，但是你們一定要公告，好不好？"],["吳局長蓮英：那個文字有公告，可能大家沒有看到誤解了。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","接著請羅明才委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":172,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","王鴻薇","賴士葆","陳玉珍","羅明才","李彥秀","顏寬恒","陳菁徽","黃珊珊","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","羅廷瑋","羅智強","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","蔡其昌"],"page_start":13,"meetingDate":["2024-11-13"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」11 案：( 一 ) 行政院函請審議、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員張智倫等 17\n人、委員賴士葆等26人、委員蔡其昌等18人、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人、委員陳\n冠廷等23人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員賴惠員等18人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草\n案」等9案、(二)本院委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條及第十二條之三條文修正草\n案」案、(三)本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條及第十二條之六條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（僅詢\n答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預\n算部分。（僅詢答）；四、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分有\n關財政部主管債務基金─中央政府債務基金。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}