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我們立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會我們先請主任秘書報告出席人數"},{"start":1763.087,"end":1787.057,"text":"報告委員會出席委員已足法定人數好我們現在開始開會請我們議事人員宣讀上次會議的議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第1次全體委員會議事錄時間中華民國113年2月9日星期四上午九十一分至九十二十一分地點清仙樓九樓大禮堂出席委員郭國文等14人主席盧偉文明才報告事項一本院秘書長韓為第11屆第1會期本院各委員會"},{"start":1790.959,"end":1816.239,"text":"各委員會召集委員選舉相關事宜。業經本院人事處提報本院第11屆第1會期第一次會議決定遭案通過災案。二、宣讀本會期本會召集委員選舉人名冊。選舉事項。選舉立法院第11屆第1會期本會召集委員二人。一、立法院各委員會召集委員選舉辦法第5條及第8條召集委員之選舉以吳敬明單計法票選之。經在場委員互推,由陳委員譽貞擔任發票員。"},{"start":1817.76,"end":1840.211,"text":"賴委員會員擔任唱票員、王委員紅圍擔任計票員、余委員坤城擔任監票員選舉結果初期委員14人發出票數14票、開出票數14票開票結果為羅委員明財8票、郭委員國文6票由羅委員明財及郭委員國文當選立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會召集委員宣導完畢"},{"start":1842.93,"end":1853.525,"text":"好,我們在場的委員為足法定人數,我們議事錄暫不確定。那我們依照這個,我們先請那個議事人員宣讀今日的這個議程。"},{"start":1857.179,"end":1875.957,"text":"報告事項 邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告．並備質詢。宣布完畢。"},{"start":1879.946,"end":1906.943,"text":"我們在場的委員人數已經打法定人數林委員、嚴委員請就座我們剛已經宣讀完這議事錄吳委員也到場了我們確定一下我們上次的議事錄好不好現場的委員有沒有意見沒有,那我們就通過我們原理介紹在場的這一個委員與官員"},{"start":1911.477,"end":1937.495,"text":"首先我們介紹的是我們資深的委員林德福林委員同樣也是我們財委會資深委員吳秉瑞吳委員然後我們的顏匡衡原委員也到場了接著我們介紹我們金管會的主任委員黃天牧黃主委"},{"start":1940.618,"end":1955.743,"text":"綜合規劃處副處長林希聖林副處長法律事務處林徐處委文徐處長國際業務處賴明賢賴處長資訊服務處林玉泰林處長秘書處張吉副張主任人事處洪久雅洪主任主計處戴美英戴主任"},{"start":1972.113,"end":1993.709,"text":"鄭豐市陳範回程主任、銀行局莊秀元局長、政企局高金平副局長、保險局施瓊華司局長、檢察局張子浩章局長、中央存保公司董事長蘇財源、總經理鄭明慧、"},{"start":1999.388,"end":2024.911,"text":"臺灣證券交易所總經理簡立宗、期貨交易所董事長吳智興、總經理周靖榮、集保公司董事長林秉輝、總經理陳德湘、我們櫃買中心董事長陳永成、以及總經理李愛玲"},{"start":2030.134,"end":2052.32,"text":"我們投資人跟交易人保護中心的董事長張新帝總經理林俊宏我們期貨發展基金會的董事長張傳章總經理張立真我們信用卡處理中心董事長貴先鴻總經理張立真"},{"start":2060.091,"end":2085.836,"text":"林棟良金融聯合徵信中心董事長郭建宗總經理張國明金融研訓院院長黃崇哲另外我們的汽車交通事故補償基金副總經理杜茂泉"},{"start":2089.456,"end":2101.581,"text":"我們地險保險基金的董事長李松濟總經理張嘉琳我們保險安定基金董事長林明寬總經理陳昌正我們保險事務發展中心董事長簡仲明總經理葉爾康"},{"start":2117.635,"end":2130.581,"text":"金融消費評議中心董事長杜怡靜總經理羅俊偉以上官員介紹完畢今日排定的議程是金管會的業務報告先請金管會主委進行業務報告"},{"start":2147.278,"end":2148.326,"text":"剛剛還沒有,待會再宣布就好。"},{"start":2150.195,"end":2178.66,"text":"主席和各位委員今天大院第11屆第1會期貴人會第2次全體委員會議曾貴人會邀請提出報告以下僅就國內金融概況近期重點工作及未來推動重點提出報告敬請各位委員指教我先跟各位委員報告因為這是本屆立委第一次在財委會開會所以金管會議準備了一個相對內容比較"},{"start":2179.48,"end":2184.003,"text":"在國內金融概況方面,去年金融三頁合計於7036億元,較前年增加2240億元,所以獲利算是穩健。"},{"start":2200.877,"end":2209.393,"text":"整體中介工人運作良好、資產品質跟欣賞能力都超出要關的標準。"},{"start":2212.1,"end":2232.532,"text":"證券市場去年整個不論市值、成交值跟價各方面都表現相對穩健保險業基本上仍然整個在清償能力跟相關保費收入方面仍是相當穩健,所以仍具前景"},{"start":2234.195,"end":2262.774,"text":"那在近期重點工作方面我想個人也了解各位對國人這個金融詐騙這個所謂金管會的相關作為非常關切所以我們今天用了差不多十頁左右的篇幅先把我們過去這一年的工作的重點跟未來可能在各位委員指導之下要努力的方向做了一個說明但是我想因為時間有限我就挑重點來報告"},{"start":2264.955,"end":2292.283,"text":"第1個在第4月我想在去年這一年我們整個在臨櫃關懷上不論攔截的件數跟金額都較前年有增加相當多的比例所以這兩年去年跟前已經攔阻超過100億元的整個可能的詐款那另外我們對於網路銀行約定轉帳的風險的控管也從約定轉帳的審核期間為了要"},{"start":2293.859,"end":2315.394,"text":"防度將來可能的詐騙也從過去申辦日後次一日生效改為次兩日生效這是在個別金融機構部分那麼在跨機構的防制詐欺部分我們在去年5月26號銀行公會修正了聯防機制的程序強化金融機構之間的聯防"},{"start":2317.421,"end":2321.846,"text":"對於可疑的約定轉帳所採取的作為,我們在去年合訂了財經公司的約定轉帳匯名單通報平台作業規劃,"},{"start":2335.421,"end":2356.28,"text":"預計在今年第一季就可以上線這個對於民眾如果透過轉出行轉到轉入行轉入行的帳號如果其實是在通報上是有問題的話就可以及時採取阻止匯款的這個作為那這個平台有事前事中事後的這個機制這個對未來"},{"start":2359.242,"end":2384.608,"text":"協助在金流上打詐相信會有一定成效的這個功效另外在跨部會跟公司部門合作防詐方面在第6頁我們督導金融機構配合警政署建立了金融資料調閱及聯防通報的電子化平台大部分的金融機構都已加入我們也跟內政部警政署推動了一色詐欺境內外金融帳戶的預警機制"},{"start":2387.889,"end":2412.681,"text":"配合數位部的第三方支付業者使用虛擬帳號服務的管控我們也請銀行配合數位部所定的能量登錄機制對於沒有完成能量登錄者不受理期開戶這是我們跨部會另外一個合作的機制下面一項也非常的重要就是我們配合法務部典定的《洗房法》15條之外第6項帳號"},{"start":2415.002,"end":2423.306,"text":"暫停限制功能或禁予關閉管理的辦法,我們是可以督促金融機構依照規定執行告誡處分,對這種告誡處分者的金融帳戶交易功能給他限制管控,來防度人頭帳戶。"},{"start":2437.028,"end":2462.371,"text":"另外,我們也主動收報違規或詐欺的廣告,從去年4月10日起到今年的3月1日止,總共累計收報了28,000件,這些都依照《投信投顧法》70條之一,已請刑事局依法通知網路平台業者處置。另外,我們也跟行政院打造辦公室跟警政事務處建立聯繫的管道,"},{"start":2464.304,"end":2481.992,"text":"對於這個投資型廣告將來移送之後相關的財發基準跟實施要點有所討論。那另外在今年1月15號我們邀請Google跟Meta兩家網路平台業者討論廣告審查的進進方向。那麼在今年6月底之前就會配合實施實名制。"},{"start":2483.288,"end":2496.805,"text":"在宣導方面﹐不論全國的反詐宣導、走入校園、拍攝防詐微電影、本會建置金融防詐專區或是配合刑事局長化詐騙宣導以及引用多種語言防範詐騙廣告"},{"start":2499.97,"end":2527.671,"text":"還有強化電子支付賬戶的管理這些都是最近這段時間我們努力的方向尤其在強化電子支付賬戶的管理部分我們增加了驗證使用者開立存款賬戶信用卡源流手機號碼的機制那這個機制推動下來之後去年12月的警示的這個賬戶的案件數早前年12月已經下降了九成表示是有具體的功效"},{"start":2528.712,"end":2539.791,"text":"另外,我們會強化行動裝置感應支付防範倒刷。另外,我們也積極面鼓勵行員積極防詐。今年5月份也請院長親自頒發有表現機優的行員。"},{"start":2543.599,"end":2564.062,"text":"這是在防度詐騙方面金管會所做的努力那另外就是明年我們會進入超高齡社會那金管會會高齡者權益跟民眾金融素養方面也包括了對於高齡客戶的臨櫃關懷包括商業不動產逆向抵押貸款小額中老維新保險退休準備平台"},{"start":2565.799,"end":2587.244,"text":"以及我們推動金融知識普及計畫等等。第三個在於包容的金融環境方面我們擴大微型保險還有我們對於年輕人喜歡的領股我們也縮短盤中領股行情介入的時間。訂定逝世者金融服務指引、精進金融業友善金融服務措施以及持續與身心障礙團體強化溝通。"},{"start":2590.27,"end":2610.276,"text":"在17月,提升金融韌性方面,我們繼續在銀行面推動Bussell 3的改革規範,必至明年1月1日開始正式實施最後一階段的改革措施。我們也會繼續在考量國情和循序漸進的基礎之下,循序推動2026年推動財報準則、17日公報和國際期待清償能力制度,"},{"start":2618.11,"end":2630.296,"text":"我們也會強化保險業務員招攬、查核、管理。在19頁永續金融發展方面,我們辦理了第一次的永續金融評鑑。我們也會繼續強化期貨變遷風險管理和永續資訊的揭露。"},{"start":2635.383,"end":2653.451,"text":"最重要的是我們進一步擴大了ESG資料庫的查詢範圍我們請廉政中心建置了企業ESG資料平臺去年9月份起金融業辦理授信的時候就要填報我們也請廉政中心建置了金融業氣候實體風險資訊整合平臺在今年1月31號上線"},{"start":2659.13,"end":2677.92,"text":"我們也建立了在今晚會議建立的永續金融的網站在今年1月10號上線讓各界能夠參考我們也感謝購買中心建置了綠色證券的資訊平台整合了國內外綠色相關的標章資訊等等供各界參考這個在2月29號上線"},{"start":2680.287,"end":2708.422,"text":"另外在有更苛責性的銀行行為方面我們建立了22頁銀行業建立責任地圖制度這是仿照英國的這個相關的責任地圖在明年1月1號實行希望銀行更能夠強化各部門的苛責更強化他的公司治理在滿足各方位的金融需求部分我們繼續推動高資產客戶財富管理業務員工持股信託還有各股期貨納入業盤交易商品等等"},{"start":2709.434,"end":2720.856,"text":"在24月,撥劃數位金融新局面方面,除了雲端委外之外,還有我們會發布數位身份驗證的指引,以及AI的核心原則跟相關推動政策。"},{"start":2721.957,"end":2748.325,"text":"那尤其在第25頁有關管理虛擬資產平台及交易業務的指導原則方面我們在去年9月26號發布了指導原則另外我們在去年11月檢察局就已經針對幾家主要的平台業者進行了金融檢查那這個規定除了是依照洗房法之外我們也除了洗房法是否有遵循之外我們也同時了解"},{"start":2749.165,"end":2769.397,"text":"這些平臺業者有沒有遵循我們去年9月26號所發布的這些原則所以監管會是做實際的去做監理那另外我們今年年初也委託相關的學術單位對未來是不是要訂定虛擬資產管理的專法做專案的研究原則上今年9月份就會有具體的結果"},{"start":2772.986,"end":2799.204,"text":"另外我們強化了金融業跟非金融業的合作保險局在去年10月4號修正了電子商務注意事項跟異業合作推廣保險注意事項目前有一家透過他的這個通訊業者跟他的產險業者去做所謂場景金融的合作這也是一個新的生態的調整一個擴大希望能夠擴展到其他的業別"},{"start":2801.141,"end":2808.75,"text":"在第26頁部分在購足安全自通防護網方面我們強化金融機構資安長的這個職務並且繼續強化金融資安聯防的功能一起參與國際資安的組織"},{"start":2817.36,"end":2831.187,"text":"28月,我們會繼續不斷地強化辦理金融資安攻防演練的評比活動,以及提升上述為公司的資安防護能量,並且要求及時揭露有關資安的重大訊息。"},{"start":2832.677,"end":2853.026,"text":"二十九頁部分我們在過去這三年中我們已經檢討下降了八千五百則法例那麼減輕業者法尊負擔健全進入法治環境對會計事務所也有差異化的管理對上稅公司董事酬金允許諮詢部分都有相關揭露更強化的規定"},{"start":2856.331,"end":2878.777,"text":"在未來推動重點方面33頁我們會繼續強化防詐與交易的安全尤其是在強化信用卡網路交易安全性部分我們會督導銀行公會將身份驗證的一次性密碼OTP納入防範信用卡網路盜刷懶人包電子書並強化特約商店行動裝置應用程式綁定信用卡的身份驗證機制"},{"start":2880.397,"end":2906.128,"text":"也會請銀行公會轉資信用卡發卡機構加強宣導針對經OTP驗證的交易強化信用卡交易授權監控的風險管理以及將外幣的OTP驗證簡訊、消費金額的幣別英文代碼改為中文顯示也會透過防詐的金融科技加強繼續這方面的努力也鼓勵金融機構運用科技防詐"},{"start":2907.649,"end":2926.834,"text":"在營造友善高齡金融環境部分繼續精進公平待客機制包括提供友善的金融服務還有改善高齡者數位落差問題規劃多項課程來協助高齡者去適應金融數位化的環境"},{"start":2929.386,"end":2956.671,"text":"我們也會繼續透過上市會公司的公司治理評鑑接入指引強化推動高齡化的政策並且透過金融檢查來強化各金融機構重視高齡者跟身心障礙者的權益在精進產品服務跟普惠金融方面我們電子支付跨機構共用平台提供跨境購物的功能將陸續推出也會研議提高國人人壽保險、身故保障的門檻"},{"start":2959.406,"end":2964.673,"text":"也會完善身心障礙者經驗統計的資料跟完善分紅保險商品的管理機制"},{"start":2965.88,"end":2987.909,"text":"在39月,健全經營環境和經營韌性方面會開放本國銀行用《信用風險內部平等法》來祭提資本這個比標準法對相關業者如果經過審核通過是相對有利的在今年6月底之前首批就會開始申請也會開放保險業透過特殊目的公司在國外來發債另外在"},{"start":2994.716,"end":3010.863,"text":"四十一頁永續發展跟公司治理方面我們會精簡公開發行公司年報揭露的事項鼓勵我們的金融業對於中小企業六大核心戰略產業公共建設跟長照事業進行投融資也會擴大永續債券商品的範疇"},{"start":3012.684,"end":3031.958,"text":"我們在前年已經公布了第一批的永續經濟活動的參考指引有四類的產業,我們現在正委外做另外六類產業的,包括製造業、廢棄物清理業、資源回收業等等,評估這六類經濟活動對於環境的貢獻以及相關共金融業可以做實質投融資的一個參考。"},{"start":3033.53,"end":3049.553,"text":"我們對外界關心的委外的票率問題今年6月底之前我們會訂定一個金融機構防票率注意事項也做一個委外的研究瞭解國際間對於相關票率部分在金融方面能夠做的一些相關的監理措施"},{"start":3052.028,"end":3067.306,"text":"43頁,我們會在今年希望優先推動修正投信投估法推動基金架構的不動產投資信託也會擴大資本市場規模優化我們的投資環境目前也研議放寬銀行申請續辦高資產業務的申請程序"},{"start":3071.072,"end":3093.513,"text":"也會研議開放主動型跟多資產的ETF,擴大證券商辦理高階財富管理的業務。同時,在於提升證券商受信業務範圍部分,我們也在研究接受員工及員股東身份認購的股票為擔保,向證券商申請認股借貸的資金融通。"},{"start":3094.673,"end":3116.651,"text":"那在開創數位金融方面除了繼續開放銀行第三階段以及發布AI指引之外我們也會推動金融機構FIDO的驗證轉接中心以及跨市場資料的共享資料治理我們以前已經有了金融機構之間的現在是金融機構跟非金融機構之間的跨市場另外我們也建立了金融科技法規調適平台"},{"start":3118.342,"end":3138.678,"text":"每一季逐步檢視各界對於金融科技法規上的問題隨時去做一些法規的調適在資安跟專業智能部分會繼續強化資安人才的技能、辦理資安的演練以及重大資安事件的應變情境演練尤其是這兩年我們特別要重視導入"},{"start":3140.339,"end":3149.526,"text":"零信任的架構尤其是嚴定雲端監控的組織基準對於上市公司自然維護也會特別加以重視"},{"start":3151.264,"end":3176.105,"text":"最後,在民眾權益和保護機制方面我們也希望今年能夠修《證券投資人期貨人交易保護法》另外,我們也配合行政院的接避保護措施對於11家在法院登記超過1億元以上財產的財團法人來落實執行強化住宅低震保險的危險分散機制等等最後,我想金融市場瞬息萬變"},{"start":3177.786,"end":3191.996,"text":"金融機構的經營者跟建立者都面對一個環境非常的複雜金管會會在金融穩定的前提之下持續努力促進金融商品服務創新多元發展來提升金融產業的競爭力那我想以上敬請各位委員支持謝謝"},{"start":3193.097,"end":3194.398,"text":"現在依照這個登記的順序先請登記第一位的林德福委員質詢"},{"start":3230.083,"end":3233.014,"text":"謝謝主席請軍管會黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":3242.487,"end":3269.912,"text":"主委你好主委我請教因為臺股大盤農曆年啊年後創歷史的新高那突破一萬九千點的大關那面對兩萬點的門檻可說是近在咫尺那對於2024年的臺股你說展現韌性這個穩健前行八個字"},{"start":3271.328,"end":3276.68,"text":"那2024年能適用並營用水滸傳中的"},{"start":3278.058,"end":3301.041,"text":"誰無暴風淨雨時首得雲開見月明表示任性對臺灣的重要性那我請問主委臺股大盤創歷史新高是不是代表進入雲開明月又或者是臺股前行還有可能遇到暴風淨雨呢?"},{"start":3303.341,"end":3330.52,"text":"我想跟委員報告其實這幾年我們整個的資本市場也是要面對國際政經多變的情況所以雖然我們的基本面尤其是去年AI相關產業跟國際的發展帶來台股的相關的動能不過今年我想這個AI產業的基本面應該也是大家看好的不過國際間其實今年對於地緣政治美國的這個調整利息的利率的時間"},{"start":3331.741,"end":3351.595,"text":"那至於通膨這些還有比方中美貿易之間的一些問題還是會有一些變數所以我們還是要謹慎以對那個主委啊假使臺股仍然有風險以主委的專業那請問你認為臺股近期是不是還存在黑天鵝、灰犀牛或綠天鵝這些風險的威脅"},{"start":3356.194,"end":3381.811,"text":"黑天鵝是我們都沒辦法預估的但是灰犀牛是我們知道的我們要好好去預防但綠天鵝部分我覺得我們在永續方面大家包括上市會公司都已經規劃好作業我個人覺得其實基本上我相對來講還是覺得相對是覺得很穩健的這樣齁主委臺股去年齁創下多項的新紀錄全年吶整個帳戶高達26.8%"},{"start":3385.41,"end":3392.174,"text":"那成績在全球僅次於日本那你說這是在美國升息減緩通膨這個"},{"start":3395.606,"end":3418.005,"text":"受管理下加上AI股帶動相關的這些產業的表現以及整個國內產業基本面這些因素所得到的一些成績那請問主委臺股這樣亮眼的成績是不是已經充分的反映大多數股票在股價上"},{"start":3423.047,"end":3424.168,"text":"臺股表現反映基本面"},{"start":3452.846,"end":3472.112,"text":"主委還是只有特定族群甚至於是少數股票受惠你認為臺股大盤去年近三成的漲幅是不是對大多數的股民是受惠一定能夠賺到錢呢?依您的看法"},{"start":3472.792,"end":3498.183,"text":"您問的問題是非常專業的問題其實大家當然都知道半導體電子股其實在帶動股票上漲上其實是有一定的功能了但是我想我們也希望其他產業的類股包括綠能、生技、數位這些都能夠創新的這些股票都能夠也得到投資人的青睞了讓大家都能夠從台股的表現中能夠獲益"},{"start":3499.793,"end":3516.346,"text":"主委去年11月中旬你說從國發會景氣的燈號以及國際貨幣基金整個調升這個臺灣明年經濟成長率一估一估值兩大面向來看臺灣經濟成長"},{"start":3519.52,"end":3527.923,"text":"金管會預估2024年台股日均量約有3000億元。今年過了已經兩個月,請問你認為目前整個臺灣經濟發展的狀況以及台股成交量是不是都在金管會的預估範圍裡面?"},{"start":3543.649,"end":3558.29,"text":"我的印象中到今年上禮拜五為止其實臺股的交易量應該比去年同期其實是有提高一些有比去年同期要提高"},{"start":3559.212,"end":3583.002,"text":"所以說都在你的預估範圍內不是我的預估我想應該是整個基本面的反應大家對臺股的信心主委據了解臺灣ETF在1月整個規模已經破4兆元一年內增加了1.5兆元那請問ETF是不是目前臺股量能的主力是不是"},{"start":3584.704,"end":3586.626,"text":"ETF的成長對台股穩健前行,你認為會不會有什麼影響?"},{"start":3602.591,"end":3618.852,"text":"因為它是一個追蹤指數的被動型的投資我覺得基本上應該算是穩健的一個力量但是很重要的就是這些商品這個相關的資訊跟風險有沒有充分的讓投資人知道"},{"start":3619.853,"end":3621.434,"text":"主委,據金管會統計,2024年1月底,ETF市場規模已達4兆元。"},{"start":3638.803,"end":3652.501,"text":"一百七十九億四兆多佔整體境內基金規模六兆九千七百四十五億元佔比佔了百分之五十七點六一"},{"start":3653.763,"end":3670.062,"text":"那比去年同期ETF市場的規模增長的幅度達到62.48%那我請問主委到底台股中的ETF規模成長快速到底是正常的現象還是異常的現象呢?"},{"start":3671.502,"end":3687.07,"text":"我們覺得這是投資人就是民眾他希望選擇一個相對穩健又不需要花太多時間去分析能夠有固定一些預期收益的商品那可能ETF滿足了這些條件但儘管如此我們覺得從整個資產管理的"},{"start":3688.106,"end":3691.169,"text":"據本席了解,ETF本質是基金的商品,卻能夠在證券市場交易所中進行交易,以及以股票形態來保持高度的買賣彈性。"},{"start":3716.311,"end":3730.933,"text":"對於上班忙碌而且資金較小而且不願意花時間在投資上的人來說ETF是非常適合這個資本不大散戶的投資工具處委金管會上個禮拜"},{"start":3732.779,"end":3750.798,"text":"禮拜四宣布對ETF提出三大面向六大的監理措施那請問這些措施提出之後你認為會不會影響民眾對ETF購買的意願會不會我覺得這些措施其實都是強化投資人保護事實上這個市場能夠發展的好"},{"start":3753.4,"end":3772.325,"text":"讓投資人保護能夠做得更透所以說金管會是基於說對這些投資人保護的一個考量才決定提出這些監理的措施是跟委員報告其實這也是國際監理機構對於ATF的一個發展的監理的趨勢跟方向那我請問你"},{"start":3773.425,"end":3794.37,"text":"金管會認為ETF對臺股成交量可能會不會有一些負面的影響所以才出手?應該不是考慮負面而是因為既然投資人那麼重視這樣一個商品我們覺得從投資人保護角度我們也要更重視這個商品有哪些可能在銷售面或是商品面有什麼需要再去管理的地方"},{"start":3794.79,"end":3807.428,"text":"因為他會責定一些股而且AI裡面占多數你像一般的傳產股他們不會去責定尤其你像營建股他會嗎應該不會吧對不對主委"},{"start":3810.092,"end":3836.081,"text":"ETF成為臺股主力是事實國人搶進臺股ETF尤其是高股息類型的ETF也是力之所趨沒有什麼懸念只是ETF規模持續的變大對於屬於ETF成分股的這些股票或許相對有利但是對於不是ETF成分的這些股票恐怕"},{"start":3836.861,"end":3860.476,"text":"就是可能出現一些排擠的效應會不會我想這也是我們希望市場均衡發展的一個考量之一了所以說那個主委金管會有沒有統計過ETF成分股和非ETF成分股在台股成交量上的近兩年的占比變化有沒有你們有沒有統計過這部分應該交易所應該有我們會後了解一下"},{"start":3861.517,"end":3862.238,"text":"這部分我們會後做一個分析提問給委員參考"},{"start":3885.191,"end":3889.173,"text":"其他的部分我另外因為時間到了我下次再問謝謝謝謝委員指導謝謝林德福委員的質詢接著我們請吳秉瑞委員質詢主席麻煩請金管會黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":3915.014,"end":3919.416,"text":"虛擬貨幣去年發生非常多的風險,也發生非常多的事件。"},{"start":3937.199,"end":3961.4,"text":"今晚會被政府指定為是這個虛擬貨幣的這個管理的機關主管機關那主委你對於這個虛擬貨幣那現在這個起伏這麼大那風險當然有人在冒著風險高風險想要獲得高報酬但是同時他的風險大也代表說他虧本的機會也很大這個你有什麼樣子的看法"},{"start":3962.783,"end":3991.315,"text":"謝謝委員關心這樣一個重要的問題其實我先說其實我們對虛擬資產國際間監理機關的看法都是覺得它有相當的風險、投機性但是因為投資人青睞那有很大量的投資因為它有預期很高的漲幅所以各國監理機關現在的態度都是要強化這方面的監理那我覺得虛擬資產最重要讓大家要注意就是它沒有內在價值"},{"start":3992.295,"end":3992.916,"text":"因為他沒有實質的資產是大家投資者信心的堆疊"},{"start":4015.579,"end":4033.578,"text":"這個我聽起來很類比一個這個就是泡沫我們的金融市場如果大家都持正面看法那就是會去堆疊但哪一天氣球破的時候後果很嚴重最近的這個EDF這一波最大的漲幅的原因是因為美國"},{"start":4035.967,"end":4054.523,"text":"這個比特幣的漲幅的原因是不是因為美國把他捏納入可以發行ETF可以做ETF的買賣其實因為美國證券會也是因為法院裁決他原來禁止法院裁決說你這個禁止是不對的所以才讓他現貨的ETF才上市但是市場都覺得說那這樣既然得到監理機關的肯認"},{"start":4055.203,"end":4076.689,"text":"所以就一窩蜂進去另外一個原因應該是今年4月份的比特幣的機制4月份有一個自動減半的機制讓他覺得供應量可能變少了所以覺得需求就開始往上竄升那你我剛剛也許我剛剛講那個問題就是大家一窩蜂如果大家都一窩蜂進去的時候他當然就"},{"start":4077.816,"end":4104.537,"text":"政府就很大但是有一天如果出現了不利的消息或是大家失去信心他又會大量的崩跌所以其實這個唯一比對比為例已經有好幾波很大的跌幅跟很大的漲幅那這個我在這邊一再強調跟你已經報告過很多次我觀察臺灣投資民眾的屬性他賺錢不會感謝政府但是如果大家賠錢大家就怪政府"},{"start":4105.37,"end":4128.002,"text":"以前沒有管理機關沒有指定管理機關還可以講說沒有機關管理現在已經指定金管會有管理機關了所以如果有一些人去投資比特幣他自己賠錢累積很多人之後他有可能還去你的辦公室門口要跟你圍你要跟你抗議出現這樣的狀況要怎麼辦呢"},{"start":4129.571,"end":4154.814,"text":"委員我跟您報告謝謝您給我這個機會說明其實我們也希望因為現在一個網路世界我們希望投資人真的覺得他願意他願意承擔這個風險願意投資應該是到像金管會有申報洗錢防治聲明的這20幾家的平台業者去做投資那現在有很多境外的幣商或是沒有核准過的個人幣商最好都不要去透過那些平台去投資"},{"start":4155.615,"end":4156.978,"text":"因為沒有實質資產所以這個是虛擬的世界相對的還有實質資產現在要這個"},{"start":4164.484,"end":4190.57,"text":"這個代幣化這個所謂的RWA這樣子的一個機制美國也一邊在進行這個部分你怎麼講如果我們有提供更多的投資管道那在實質資產這個有東西有憑藉的你也把它代幣化也是一樣可以像這樣子的虛擬的這樣的交易的時候是不是可以產生替代的效果不要讓那些人想要賺錢都去投在這個非常高風險的這個虛擬的這個資產"},{"start":4193.451,"end":4217.68,"text":"實質的資產這一邊是不是要受到像應當有的重視跟應當有的強化呢?我跟委員報告其實您垂尋到一個非常我們正在思考的一個重要的政策其實大家對虛幣、虛擬資產除了它投資上可能帶來的這種漲幅之外還有一個兩法就是它跟區塊鏈未來發展的連結可是我們觀察國際的趨勢像美國跟亞洲、新加坡"},{"start":4218.34,"end":4244.033,"text":"其實重點應該是在您剛所提到RWA其中有關有實質經濟價值的金融資產的代幣化透過區塊鏈把它數位代幣化這個是各國監理機關金融監理機關目前在在注意的這個問題那其實金管會已經從半年前就開始重視這個金融資產的代幣化這個問題那這個跟虛幣的管理是不同的邏輯虛幣是從"},{"start":4246.474,"end":4267.615,"text":"投資人保護可是實質資產代幣化是從區塊鏈的發展去處理那事實上今年年初記者會我們也在資料中有特別記載我們在今年下半年就會對於我們的基金的代幣化就是Tokenization去做一些研究那現在政體局跟相關的工會已經在做研究了"},{"start":4269.017,"end":4282.538,"text":"這個從你管理的角度以及這個屬性當然是這樣來講沒有錯但是投資者他有的閒錢他要投資他是有好幾種選擇嘛如果你在這個實質資產代幣化這一邊做的也可以很好"},{"start":4283.647,"end":4283.847,"text":"主席"},{"start":4302.851,"end":4321.611,"text":"其實這個概念之前在不動產的證券化就體現了這樣的概念現在是把更多的東西可以包裝可以讓它代幣化讓它等於是可以證券化這樣子的觀念那重點是你願意開放哪一些資產可以讓它來代幣化呢我跟您報告"},{"start":4322.392,"end":4348.889,"text":"有關金融資產的代幣化部分其實包括美國跟亞洲這些國家重要國家其實都還在試驗性質因為它有可能產生一些金融穩定的顧慮但是我覺得我們會朝這條方向去處理去研究為什麼?它可以把虛實整合把有實質經濟跟實質經濟連結的這些資產把它透過去中心化金融連結變成數位代幣那可以"},{"start":4350.23,"end":4368.08,"text":"分割很細,容易交易,跨域可以隨時清算,這些都是它的好處,可是這些在美國、新加坡等國,他們還是在試驗性質,所以我們會密切關注他們推動的情況,在建立架構跟商品面,希望將來能夠有機會推出這些商品。"},{"start":4368.76,"end":4394.282,"text":"那現在你們提出的法案裡面對於這個不動產證券化基本上這是這一屆你們打算要推的這個方案希望能夠是要立法院能夠支持當然行政院送到立法院來我們看看那個內容如果合理支持讓有比較大的空間對國人來講要投資是好處我的意思是說你是不是在這個做的時候"},{"start":4395.683,"end":4415.852,"text":"考慮因為這工作實在是很複雜我知道你要第一個交易的時間隨時可以交易然後怎麼樣細分這東西都很複雜這個還要發展很久可是我個人比較站在我個人角度我講我的想法給你聽如果你這個實質資產的這個代幣化的交易可以很活絡的話我們年輕人"},{"start":4416.932,"end":4443.572,"text":"或是我們的國人他有一筆不太大的資金或是說他想投資他可以走到這個領域裡面來而不用現在找不到投資的管道然後每天晚上看這個虛擬貨幣然後去買比特幣去什麼樣的貨幣結果就冒了一個大風險其實萬變不離其中一句名言風險之所在才是利益之所在想要得到大利益的人他必須要冒高風險"},{"start":4444.853,"end":4472.693,"text":"但是我現在是怕大家不感受而已所以你就是必須要把這個東西弄得更清楚同時在實質市場這邊提供出來讓大家有更多的投資管道才不會說都沒有投資管道我也不想買股票我就去買這個虛擬貨幣我比較擔心的是我比較希望能夠做的是如果這樣做可以減輕投資虛擬貨幣一窩蜂這樣的現象是委員跟您報告"},{"start":4473.453,"end":4501.414,"text":"我跟您報告這個RWH是金融資產代幣化其實各國還在試驗階段還沒有真正所謂可以商業化的商品還要一段時間不過我覺得這個方向上是我們要密切注意的所以金管會在這個議題上面會非常重視而且採積及的態度但是我們現階段做的就像我剛剛跟您報告的還是以基金的實質資產代幣化作為一個開頭那還要一些時間去研究但是我們已經開始啟動了"},{"start":4502.815,"end":4521.508,"text":"其實這個某一個角度來講不動產的證券化就是這個就是這個領域的一部分他本身就是這個領域的一部分只是將來這個要把它擴大多大的範圍那你的交易要怎麼樣的規範是這一方面因為像歐美國家他有一些是把藝術品也納進來有一些是把其他的這個"},{"start":4522.429,"end":4534.387,"text":"很高價值的珠寶也納進來等等這個都是可以思考的那希望能夠我是希望有實質的東西有實質的價值你就算投資他將來就算"},{"start":4538.753,"end":4557.82,"text":"這也是我們的想法你這個虛擬世界根本就不存在那實質的價值他的那個全部都是靠大家信心的堆疊等到那個信心泡沫破裂的時候他的下跌可能那個幅度是沒有辦法接受的所以是擔心的是這個了解好謝謝大家請加油謝謝委員謝謝謝謝秉瑞委員的質詢接著我們請賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":4577.574,"end":4582.576,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請黃天牧主委有請黃主委委員長主委你早現在我最近我的付出"},{"start":4595.675,"end":4618.027,"text":"結掉三者的被詐騙的案子我特別提出來就是我看了很難過啊幾乎是他們全一輩子的積蓄這樣被騙光了第三個被騙了三千多萬來我的服務處來了六次"},{"start":4619.414,"end":4638.018,"text":"我該做能做的都做了,能做的都做了,怎麼樣找刑事警察局什麼的、金管會等等的,但是好像到現在為止就一錯莫展了。我就仔細看一下,刑事警察局統計了,去年度整年度被詐騙金額88億,"},{"start":4641.707,"end":4669.053,"text":"詐騙案的前三名第一個假投資佔了六成以上第二個假網拍第三個解除分期付款這個都完全是金管會裡面可以管得到可以幫忙的地方啊比如說這個現在變成是大家透過平台去join"},{"start":4670.421,"end":4690.934,"text":"那些的所謂的投資,教你怎麼賺錢,加line啊,加什麼啦,加名人啊。我知道我像黃主委,名字也被冒名過了,對不對?呃,應該有,應該有。有嘛齁,還有其他人也冒名啊,什麼之類的啊。這個啊,我正在想,"},{"start":4693.027,"end":4716.185,"text":"與其讓讓其他的當事人或者其他的單位行事警察局他們去聽著看你的證交所、你的櫃碼中心人都不少啊你不能叫他們每天聽著看可不可以一樓就處理一樓就處理現在來看的話都是金管會的事情了我那個陳清仁就告訴我"},{"start":4717.806,"end":4743.789,"text":"主委,我替你擋子彈,他偷罵金管會主委,他還不知道你姓什麼,我要不好意思說你姓黃。他就說金管會都沒你做事,六成都是假投資。我們交易所的金總經理跟貴馬的陳董事長要不要上來一下。"},{"start":4745.629,"end":4765.636,"text":"我想在他們上來中間我跟您報告我們其實一直就有在兩個交易所去收報這報告中也寫從去年四三四月到今年已經有兩萬八千件但是這個平台還要大家跨部會去合作像Google跟Meta要用實名制這些都有在努力中請兩位的長官就回到我的問題你以為派專人"},{"start":4772.711,"end":4799.5,"text":"可能不只一個可能不只兩個專人每天盯這些平台有沒有有沒有回答這問題跟委員報告我們交易所這邊有專人在做這個有沒有每天盯有有我們有沒有每天出報告我們持續發現案子就會做移送的這個動作給檢察局給好你們上個月移送多少幾件"},{"start":4801.815,"end":4804.257,"text":"到2月29日為止,我這邊的統計是14000多件。"},{"start":4824.004,"end":4839.232,"text":"一個一萬多、一個一萬多。主委啊,你回答我不好。我支持魯頓喔。輸送這麼多,為什麼都沒辦法查出來?這裡面的名堂啊什麼之類的,為什麼沒有辦法有效阻斷?"},{"start":4840.982,"end":4864.296,"text":"這些,你看我們行政院陳院長,沒有這麼大聲,花了13例,喊打喊殺,打詐,結果詐越打越多,你看到這裡曲線圖,這個是聯運報的曲線圖,你看到,越來越多,越來越多,件數越來越多,沒有效啊,而且看起來你取締的不少啊,所以,"},{"start":4866.912,"end":4892.783,"text":"黃主委因為這個詐騙絕對跟經理有關係絕對跟你的管區有關係你會不會覺得你少做了一件什麼事其實報告委員重點就是因為我們收報之後報到刑事局之後其實重點是叫他下架他是有在24小時之內下架可是下架之後他又透過其他的管檔又再上來所以查完之後他還會再上來所以我們下架不能幹嘛處罰嗎"},{"start":4894.417,"end":4919.122,"text":"沒有,處罰的前提必須他不下架我們才能處罰他下架就不能處罰那這是法律上的規定那另外一個重點就是將來透過平台Google跟Meta用實名制現在用實名制你可以不可以要求因為這個上架的大部分很多是投顧的嘛投顧也是你管的啊其實真正的投顧不會做這些事"},{"start":4919.582,"end":4945.183,"text":"假投顧也可以啊假的假的不管是不是投顧或是就是一個詐欺集團他這個不是真正的投顧你沒辦法現在就是六月底有實名制將來如果你真正在這個平台要上廣告要實名就可以追索你我請問你啊被詐騙的金融大概可以追回來多少"},{"start":4946.929,"end":4973.05,"text":"這個要刑事局這邊才有這個資料我得到的資料是不超過一成耶幾乎都是血本不歸啊那是overall的那88億那最多追回來8億而且不知道什麼時候才追得到這個噴到這樣的案子真的很難過啊真的這個當事人都會想自殺啊三千多萬"},{"start":4975.151,"end":4979.079,"text":"真的那個主委啊您腦筋很好啊這都想一想"},{"start":4980.029,"end":4982.11,"text":"臺股最近漲了一萬到一萬九千多是不是已經正式進入流勢?"},{"start":5007.028,"end":5033.416,"text":"我們不太敢...我們不太適合判斷牛市跟熊市我想臺股有基本面是...牛市什麼判斷?大概一定期間漲...我想我...百分之二十?你現在不只漲百分之二十了喔?如果你一段時間不只漲百分之二十了喔?從一萬七到一萬九就...就差不多二十啦那一萬六、一萬五漲到一萬九就百分之二十了什麼事呢?所以你還不敢講牛市?"},{"start":5034.465,"end":5059.23,"text":"我想國際政經情況多變我們還是要審慎以對基本面很好基本面有基本面我沒有說整體台股的本利比有多少?21.17倍OK嗎?我覺得還算穩健啦美國的那東京市的本利比多少?"},{"start":5060.869,"end":5079.466,"text":"報告委員我沒聽清楚你是美國的Dow Jones的本利比多少這個我要請同仁提供一下多少84.06所以臺灣的本利比不高還對從這個角度他的意思就是還可能會漲"},{"start":5081.282,"end":5109.371,"text":"呃,報告委員,監理機關不太適合對漲跌有太多的…下一步就是這樣說啊!本來你比第一樓要去漲啊!就是這樣啊!對嗎?但是你仔細發現到這個漲幅都是靠AI啦!跟台積電相關的電子族群其他的族群很少啊!就是這個不夠平均的啊!這個其實外界…外界會…會有點擔心說我們資本市場特別股票市場"},{"start":5110.754,"end":5135.903,"text":"扭曲的現象還蠻嚴重的怎麼大家資金都一窝窝的擠到這個電子的一個相關的產業過來有些電子的有些電子本利比都很高耶公司電子本利比都非常高耶而且比高風險當然就高啊報告委員這個是您說的是一個事實可是另外一個事實也是臺股30年的發展我們的"},{"start":5137.838,"end":5156.908,"text":"臺灣證券交易所的市場結構就是半導體電子就這樣一半所以這個跟反映它的產業結構所以你的意思你不敢說或是什麼樣就是本地比臺灣OK還不算高所以它是Juicy所以它值得投資可以吧我現在結論"},{"start":5157.984,"end":5169.345,"text":"我覺得投不投資還是看投資人決定就注意風險但是臺股是有基本面好 最後一題也是很重要的題題目金融營業稅今年底到期"},{"start":5171.035,"end":5198.006,"text":"我們現在是3%現在是5%3%給財政部2%2%是你們到進到金融業特別準備金現在已經將近3500億金管會對於這個法今天底到底這個法要怎麼修有沒有方向我想第一個就是財政部主管的我們要尊重財政部第二個那你態度好問了財政部財政部主管問你欸"},{"start":5199.164,"end":5203.328,"text":"我的任期到5月19號,這應該是下一任主委要回答,會比較合適。"},{"start":5212.708,"end":5235.112,"text":"好歹你要離開之前做一件大事吧!這件不是大事!這個是大事喔!這個是大事喔!沒有!你的態度非常重要!我找了財政部,財政部告訴我金管會的態度非常重要!當然行政院相關政委他的態度嚴重!報告委員,其實我的態度過去在您垂詢的時候"},{"start":5235.672,"end":5246.628,"text":"其他委員隨行書我有報告過現在的我們覺得其實跟國際趨勢來講是不符的希望能夠降低但是原有到準備金的部分希望能夠留著"},{"start":5248.138,"end":5249.098,"text":"謝謝市保委員接著我們請郭國文委員"},{"start":5282.915,"end":5287.498,"text":"謝謝主席有請黃天牧黃主委請主委主委你的任期未必到519吧我們可以好好來討論一下主委最近在休會期間一直有一件新聞事件浮上新聞報導的版面當中特別是星光的這個議題星光人壽的議題"},{"start":5311.834,"end":5334.69,"text":"那新光人壽跟目前為止跟山山美邦的部分是未達標的一個狀態那一個是屬於一種不足那一個是屬於嚴重不足那這種情況底下保險局有要求啊他這一個每半年中了兩個月的時候要更新這個財務狀況李當去年的下半年就應該要報道了不曉得這資料最新的狀況如何"},{"start":5336.771,"end":5347.096,"text":"去年底的財報要到3月底才會會計師簽證查核才會出來我是說他那時候每年度差說這邊有講說字節的部分應該有字節的部分應該有那我們說一下現在狀況如何"},{"start":5354.904,"end":5374.589,"text":"呃這個請新光這兩個應該還是跟現況差不多吧還是差不多請局長說也就一個是那個有關於這個法定標準的RBC的部分新光目前也不足然後山上美崩當然新楚是不足淨紫比的兩家都不足嗎這邊局長提供的資訊是還是跟您右邊的那個都一樣表格都一樣"},{"start":5375.809,"end":5397.076,"text":"如果都未達標的情況底下我想我們保險法146、143條之六的話這個資本不足的措施跟資本減注不足的部分都有相關的作為可是在報章媒體上對於星光的部分最清楚的部分僅就要求他增資嘛因為增資的部分一來一往來來回回好多次嘛最主要是這個部分嘛"},{"start":5397.816,"end":5409.248,"text":"那到目前為止他透過新光金的這個部分要認股這個新光能售70億的部分這個有比較具體的一個進度嗎?"},{"start":5410.492,"end":5429.458,"text":"有,我們在1月22號、23號有發函,2月22號、23號有回函,還有提出一些增資的計畫,我們正在研究中,正在處理中。可是李當這個增資的計畫從112年到114年每年都要增資71,而他這個71是屬於去年應該要有的責任的不是嗎?"},{"start":5429.898,"end":5449.071,"text":"對他去年其實還差15億對還差嘛還未打嘛總共這三年間總共要210億耶那是就原有的經營團隊對保險局金管會的承諾但是跟他今年6月底RBC達到200這中間還有距離的還有距離距離大概多少"},{"start":5449.93,"end":5477.13,"text":"這要看他自己經營的績效吧。我覺得預估啦,以照目前這個時間點,你有沒有算過?可能我不太有這個數字。那你再退一下,再算給本席知道。但至少資本不足的部分,你至少要達到五項之多啦。在媒體的部分,我看到就是只有一項爭持,其他的部分你有沒有進行任何的一個要求跟作為?有啦,保險局跟銀行局都不斷地在跟他們做溝通。所有法令上要求的這些措施,這同時都有進行?"},{"start":5479.296,"end":5495.109,"text":"這個措施是要有這個目前還是在做整個監理上的溝通中還沒有做到依照這個143-6去做相關的規定都還沒有所謂限制資金沒有沒有這個還沒有要看他"},{"start":5496.169,"end":5497.69,"text":"這個應該都有處理是不是請局長報告一下"},{"start":5522.179,"end":5543.529,"text":"根委員報告那個資本顯示物不足我們也有一些措施那山上的部分他們有提出一些財業務改善計畫我看一看喔山上這部分已經快兩年了未達標了對但是因為他提的計畫裡面除了現金增資之外現金增資他大概每一次他都有達到標準那我們出售資產"},{"start":5545.01,"end":5557.646,"text":"出售資產的部分有一些像不動產的部分他們到現在還在賣那另外就是他們有要找策略性投資我不要浪費太多時間就針對這兩個公司的這種因應要求的措施狀況怎麼樣給我一個書面的部分"},{"start":5563.633,"end":5578,"text":"我想對保護來說最關心的部分這家公司的未來怎麼樣是比較關鍵然後星光金當然有提出一個方式就是說有關使利差戶抵責任準備金的部分好像被那個金管會這邊已經公然否決掉了嘛對不對"},{"start":5579.332,"end":5604.169,"text":"報告委員這個其實沒有正當性因為當年是2000年初他是因為低利率環境造成這個保險公司的一些困境所以採用當時的權宜措施護底其實這個錢本來應該是保護的錢所以後來因為這個措施之後這個錢還是應該以保護為前提不是應該就分給這個不是在解決公司的問題所以說這種情況底下這個提案不行這種情況底下"},{"start":5604.949,"end":5621.402,"text":"主委我如果沒有記錯的話之前你對整個這個寬容的措施做了不少星光透過資產這個重分類的部分它就讓它淨值增加了386億那可是呢到了第三季的時候呢它又虧損"},{"start":5623.183,"end":5643.834,"text":"剩下148億然後如果再加上啊他這個隱性的虧損未列舉的這個部分俄羅斯公債的部分再加上他目前未來還有接軌iFIRST17的部分等等幾個要件如果還有在他手頭現在資金210億還沒有達標的情況底下你認為星光人壽現在的這種狀況底下最壞的狀況是如何"},{"start":5653.491,"end":5665.121,"text":"我想我們沒辦法去評估什麼是最壞的,我想我們應該是掌握現在去跟相關的...你一直要求他自救啊,你才能自助啊"},{"start":5667.08,"end":5683.351,"text":"現在的經營團體必須自己提出來相關的能夠改善這個公司的清償能力的方案主管機關才會考量其他的這些措施而不能夠就是禁止要求主管機關先提寬容這個跟其他業者的做法是不一樣的"},{"start":5684.211,"end":5705.756,"text":"所以短期那就是你是要求他就不可能再進行任何寬容措施就是了嗎?先把他對原有經營團隊每年70億以及我們要求他在今年6月的RBC到200這些都要提出可行的計畫這邊達成以後其他再說其他再說吧萬一他都沒有達成的情況底下呢?"},{"start":5706.616,"end":5734.942,"text":"我想我們依法辦理就依法辦理就依照剛剛的要求一個一個加重處理就是了我想也我們會依法辦理但是什麼情況我們不能預測了我看可能你要有最糟的打算了我看這種情況那個不論是舊團隊也好新團隊也好基本上看起來都拿不出新的一個資金的一個來源那另外一個部分主委你剛剛在這個報告事項當中的25頁特別提到有關於虛擬資產的部分"},{"start":5736.042,"end":5748.473,"text":"本席也要就教你這個虛擬資產的部分在9月的部分已經列出所謂的這個指導原則那而且去年9月那今年9月的時候專法的研究會出爐嗎?主委是如果依照這種狀況的話因為整個虛擬資產"},{"start":5752.077,"end":5772.854,"text":"剛剛姑且不論它有沒有內在價值可是它的虛擬資產的管理這種代幣的這個管理以及未來區塊鏈的問題跟你剛剛所說的整個這個實質資產要把它代幣化的部分這部分其實基本上都有雷同也就是說這個管理的這個專法來說的話或許將來也可以套用在其他的這種代幣的可能性上對不對"},{"start":5774.094,"end":5796.909,"text":"我跟委員報告因為這個專法在學術團隊在研究但是我們當初給他的指示只是就現在的虛擬資產的投資人保護方面跟發展上面能夠做什麼去擬專法跟我剛跟您報告的所謂金融資產的RWA的代幣化兩個的那個邏輯是不完全一樣的所以那個部分而且各國都還在試驗階段所以還早"},{"start":5797.85,"end":5815.553,"text":"好 如果是沒有完全一樣部分雷同的部分也可以讓制度有一個延伸性的做法但是短期內你現在用一個所謂的指導原則的部分來處理的話那目前為止依照現階段金管會所動用的都是有關於洗房法裡頭的一個執法的部分來處理"},{"start":5816.394,"end":5834.623,"text":"那如果說以他的整個交易行為不論是保管的行為或者是買賣的行為或者本身的代幣的這個行為都有隱含著銀行法或者期貨交易法等等的這種狀況有沒有可能就既有的法令當中的條款當中來進行來對接的可能性有沒有可能?"},{"start":5835.851,"end":5849.905,"text":"我想跟您報告,就是我剛才有一點剛才沒有報告完,就是其實現在這個虛幣的主要業者其實蠻願意成立工會用自力的方式去處理,所以那些原則是可以透過我們的溝通跟去完成。"},{"start":5851.667,"end":5879.708,"text":"那但是這個您該垂詢的對不起您該問的是沒有工會的部分跟傳統金融部分這部分要很小心因為其實去年3月美國幾個銀行發生問題也都是因為他跟虛幣之間的業務聯繫而產生產生一些民眾的一些聯想所以傳統金融部分跟虛幣部分的連結這部分銀行局也會特別去注意目前是還沒有特別緊密的連結我是說"},{"start":5881.029,"end":5908.622,"text":"以傳統的金融業的部分的一個管理的法令的架構當中有沒有哪些條款可以進行修法然後來適用於整個虛擬的貨幣的管理我意思是這樣子對我跟您報告現在的方向立法方向就是專法不會連結到現有的其他作用法就是跟既有的法令的架構做一個隔離就你就直接朝向專法而不是單條的條文來做修正條文有些理念上建議理念上是可以移植但是法律的獨立性上是專法"},{"start":5909.619,"end":5936.082,"text":"好那最後我們來談談520之後的事情好了那因為呢我們520之後新的總統當選人他有提出六大的一個金融政見雖然520之後的那個黃主委是不是姓黃我不清楚主委姓黃是不清楚但是主委在這段時間的一個看守內閣當中是不是應該有一些責任跟看法將未來的整個當選人的這一個主張在從金管會的職責當中做一些準備"},{"start":5937.179,"end":5948.531,"text":"一個就是投資於公共設施第二個就是資產管理中心普惠金融已經在進行還有永續金融剛剛也有報告看起來好像有幾項還有還沒有的"},{"start":5950.283,"end":5972.884,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會其實在選前跟選後我們對於各黨派的總統候選人的政見都有去研究那選後特別對賴副總統的政見這六項政見都有研究我有交代同仁就相關重要的一些議題先做好研究那將來等新的主委上任之後再加速他的理念就可以推出這些研究的內容什麼時候原末可以出來"},{"start":5974.775,"end":6000.803,"text":"最近都在做比方說像資產管理這些這些這些我們還可以做哪些事情那公共建設資金本來就有在做了那金融科技我覺得都有在做那只是說請同仁更琢磨一下我們還能再做哪些事情我們能不能設定一個時間點把你們提供的建議讓我們知道一下我們當然就是520之前會把能夠做的先排點出來4月底之前不要等到520好4月底之前好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":6020.925,"end":6041.285,"text":"接著我們請賴會員諮詢。好,謝謝主席。有請主委還有銀行局局長。有請主委以及銀行局局長。是,委員長。是,主委長。我想就針對著今天跟你探討。是。"},{"start":6045.475,"end":6059.127,"text":"就是在2005年就是發生的這個雙卡風暴那主委有沒有印象就是說借錢不用利息結果養出了70萬張的一個卡農我們從1999年"},{"start":6063.551,"end":6086.367,"text":"萬泰銀行發行的這個喬治瑪利的一個現金卡以後因為審核的條件非常的鬆散所以到了2003年的時候我們就發現了就是銀行的現金卡就是發行的銀行就高達27家那這個總卡量竟然達到了250萬張到了2005年的時候國內的卡暴增了到了70萬人到了2007年的時候"},{"start":6091.73,"end":6117.781,"text":"銀行的預放比例將近接近到了5%每個月的打消的待賬金額就高達百億元主委有沒有印象?這個我們都是我們金融監理的一個重要的一個借鑒是是好那再請問主委這個租賃業跟換款的業務是不是歸金融那個金管會來管?"},{"start":6119.943,"end":6144.173,"text":"不是那你認為應不應該由你們來管我們跟金管會組織條例的定位是不一樣的因為租賃業或是放貸業務他是根據民法去處理的或是公司法15條去處理的主委我也相信你一定會跟我講說不是歸你管因為你們現在有很多的一個作為看不出來是歸你們管那我想這個"},{"start":6145.874,"end":6169.486,"text":"民間的那個主任會金管會來管轄這個是肯定的在法律上是正確的可是金管會在7月27號在記者會上面也有講了非常清楚主任業是民間的一個借貸業應該是由消費者保護機構來處理那甚至必須要提高那個監督的一個管理對消費者"},{"start":6169.986,"end":6195.24,"text":"如果你是講提高監督的管理對消費者未必是有利那如果我們從司法院的那個裁判書裡頭去查詢光是去年中租抵合就是債務人的一個申請債務更生案件裡頭就多了比前年多了就是80件他現在是131件顯然這個已經是成為很嚴重的一個社會問題了"},{"start":6199.682,"end":6217.914,"text":"主委你怎麼看這個事情我想不論在社群媒體上或是外界關心或是委員的槌尋上我們當然也注意到這個問題但是我想這個部分其實在相關的法律中都有規定比方說重力啊或者說是非凡的催收或是自洩揭露都有相關的法律可以規定"},{"start":6221.056,"end":6221.937,"text":"主委,您從這張圖看到了什麼樣的問題?"},{"start":6246.414,"end":6251.583,"text":"為什麼一定要由金管會來管?我想這個利息該如何管?"},{"start":6256.01,"end":6274.807,"text":"這個的惡性循環我們從上一張圖我們所看到的就是主任業裡頭他所顯現出來的就是換款的利率期限還有換款的一個資格那主委我們看到了他是12他的利率從12到15.75這麼高的一個利率"},{"start":6280.131,"end":6297.785,"text":"那你還不管嗎?那我們甚至還看到了在下一頁我們看到了一個這個中租他有一個就是專門針對年輕人講的就是中租倫理貸款企業裡頭我們看到了就是"},{"start":6299.286,"end":6311.26,"text":"消費者他的延遲繳款的時候他的就是必須要收取更多的一個利息接近33%我相信你看到這個33%你應該是會非常震撼的是不是"},{"start":6315.382,"end":6336.497,"text":"那委員這個利率應該限民法最高是16那他您說的那個利率會不會可能是累積的延遲的那我跟您報告其實在去年年初所謂的先買後付BNPL開始盛行我們其實就有列出一個從銀行監理上要注意的原則包括資訊的接觸給主任工會請他去要會員去做參考就是說"},{"start":6339.279,"end":6363.369,"text":"主任公司他瞄準了學生他的信用額度低的一個群眾作為主要的一個受眾受眾的一個那個他們的一個等於是他們的一個對象那其實這些人就是一個基本上比較沒有還款能力的那為什麼他們會針對這些人因為他不需要去徵信他的財力嘛"},{"start":6364.639,"end":6391.827,"text":"那如果你身為就是這個金管會我們也知道說你為了避免學生面臨到債務的一個風險所以你在信用卡業務機構的一個管理辦法裡頭第23條你有規定禁止對學生做行銷那況且你還有一個2萬元的額度的上限那問題就是說你的主任公司他是不做財務的一個調查的不做信用的一個調查的那這該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":6393.359,"end":6410.789,"text":"報告委員,我不太確定您說的他不做財務或信用調查,因為我們也有瞭解,他們也表達他們也表達他們可能會做,而且我們去年年初...他們是不做的,我跟你說,主委,他們是不做的,你是不是要讓局長來回答?好,請局長跟您報告,謝謝。"},{"start":6413.288,"end":6430.527,"text":"報告委員,確實諸董公司是沒有辦法做到像銀行這樣的徵信,因為銀行是可以參與聯繩。所以主委你有聽到了?不過我要說明的就是說,他們原則上他們會去查一些中華徵信的一些資料,"},{"start":6431.047,"end":6445.614,"text":"然後用這些資料還有一些就是借款人想的一些行為我跟你講租賃公司的貸款他是不跟那個聯徵掛鉤的他怎麼查勒他只是意思意思就是告訴你"},{"start":6446.334,"end":6462.686,"text":"我想你們沒有深入這些問題那你們也一直就是在迴避這些問題那就是說主委我再請你看到下一張圖為什麼就是說請你們一定要管因為如果你不管的話你自己的銀行也受到影響"},{"start":6464.614,"end":6486.415,"text":"這個銀行助紂為虐業者向銀行貸款取得資金然後這個資產這個這個破產會引發蝴蝶效應我想你從這張圖裡頭非常清楚的看到了到113年的一月底八家公股銀行對融資公司你們的貸款的餘額就是在這裡"},{"start":6487.964,"end":6508.871,"text":"在這裡這高達了1268億如果業者因為研製力過高的話資金沒有辦法取得那償還銀行的貸款是不是會導致銀行的風險增加呢?會不會?主委報委員這些額度不見得都是做您的PNPL的他有可能商業性的租賃的"},{"start":6510.08,"end":6535.923,"text":"非常好喔主委你這樣講齁那在未來如果有相對的這一些風險產生的時候我希望你也可以講相對的一個問題我今天跟你探討了就是說這可能延伸出來的一些問題我們該怎麼樣去管理而不是撇清啊我們沒有撇清其實這些上市公司其實證交所也都有做一些查核"},{"start":6537.441,"end":6558.859,"text":"所以你認為沒有問題你再看下一張這個實質的一個那個單保品他甚至一台舊式的一個車子他都可以一個摩托車他都可以帶到30萬你甚至在網路上你請你的那個下面下面的人抓給你看你在網路上你輕易你就可以"},{"start":6559.52,"end":6583.53,"text":"很快的就是找到了一台摩托車可以借30萬一台超過15年的汽車可以借到80萬這樣的一個廣告況且他特別跟你標註免財力免財力這非常可怕主委你要正視這些問題啊我了解謝謝委員的提醒謝謝那怎麼辦呢我現在跟你提醒了那你該怎麼做呢"},{"start":6586.006,"end":6613.368,"text":"他們很可怕的就是說他們商品的一個商品袋商品袋其實是一個謊是一個騙局他核准了以後業務員告訴了這個貸款的學生還是這個貸款人他說等一下有人會打電話問你你就說我確實有買了一個60吋的商品還是我有買了一個手機還是我有買了一個薄金包"},{"start":6615.133,"end":6637.062,"text":"這個是很嚴重很嚴重每天就是在我們市周圍就一直在發生的一些金融傷害的一個問題主委委員您提的一些個案當然非常的重要但是我們對這幾家您所提到的這些公司其實我們也做過了解我們沒有說完全就是置之度外"},{"start":6638.65,"end":6666.641,"text":"所以就是說我想這個主委你也看到了這個事情的一個嚴重性所以在最後一頁那我希望就是主委在一個月後你提出了一個比較完整的一個說明給本席那因為現在民間的主任業者已經逐漸步入了20年前雙卡風暴的一個各家銀行的一個後塵同時我們根據2021年金管會的一個統計"},{"start":6668.401,"end":6694.898,"text":"當時旗下擁有或是轉投資主任業的銀行跟金控就才14家這些業者就是受到金管會的一個監督但是不是金管會旗下的一個主任業者是緩而成為不受你監督的一個影子銀行這個影子銀行其實會造成社會很大的一個亂象跟金融的風暴所以我希望就是說主委在"},{"start":6696.16,"end":6703.795,"text":"給本席一份資料就是說未來如何統一的一個納管那最好就是在520以前不過我也是看好520以後你應該會繼續在這個位置"},{"start":6707.355,"end":6709.256,"text":"謝謝賴慧雯委員質詢接著我們請王宏威王委員質詢"},{"start":6742.691,"end":6748.115,"text":"好主席我請那個我們金管會主委有請黃天牧主委委員長我也請我們檢察局局長一起上來請檢察局我們的局長張局長好主委、局長在去年我揭發踢爆"},{"start":6769.13,"end":6797.85,"text":"合庫投信他們有違反公司治理也就是包含董事長還有當時的行銷長還有另外一位他們有違反相關規定接受海外基金公司的招待到東京然後在10天之後就跟這家公司也就是NY Melon簽約"},{"start":6799.315,"end":6825.757,"text":"那這個在去年踢爆之後我要求金管會必須要做金融檢查因為這個他們內部其實多次的包含跟合庫金控的總公司包含跟金管會來投訴但是一直都沒有處理所以我想請教主委這個你們因為我知道你們已經去做過經檢經檢的結果是怎樣"},{"start":6829.424,"end":6850.315,"text":"檢查的結果我們對於核庫監控他在集合這個投信的一些做法以及核庫投信做法都有做檢查在12月中那檢查的結果是原則上那三位出國的人基本上應該都不符原來這個基金那個基金公司企業規定出國的人員的資格"},{"start":6852.737,"end":6866.571,"text":"核酷監控部份可能在集合上面也有就是受檢舉之後去集合其實它的整個集合出來的結果兩次的人力都是相同的我們也提出檢查的意見"},{"start":6867.532,"end":6883.058,"text":"那至於說合股投信派不符合那個契約規定條件的人去去去參訪我們還有這些相關的缺失我們請他內部自行要議處相關實質人員那另外提出整個的改善計畫我們是2月7號發發函的在3個月之內提報董事會之後到金管會好"},{"start":6889.955,"end":6899.077,"text":"所以這個案子確實核庫投信他們確實有違反相關的規定而且核庫"},{"start":6900.359,"end":6927.927,"text":"金控的檢查也有瑕疵有不周全的地方所以才在我們金管會再度的去檢查之後發現它裡面確實有缺失那所以你第一個你要求合庫投信要做處理甚至要溢儲那第二個合庫金控總公司的集合他們自己也要有檢討那你剛才說你要讓他們幾月提出相關的"},{"start":6929.207,"end":6931.79,"text":"所以這件事情跟我更早之前一樣的去踢爆何苦"},{"start":6949.281,"end":6970.8,"text":"投信,對不起不是合股投信合股金控下面的合股AMC人模不章就是任用私人董事長任用包含他的外甥還有包含他的小三還有包含他的調阿咖還有任用包含他的這個事業夥伴的"},{"start":6971.721,"end":6995.538,"text":"子女通通放到核庫AMC去那當然在去年核庫AMC也做了一處這幾個人通通滾蛋這連續兩個事情嚴重暴露我們現在的公股事業公股銀行裡面其實他有嚴重的公司治理的問題你同不同意"},{"start":6997.455,"end":7021.608,"text":"在一年內何苦這麼大的一家公股、金控公司兩個子公司都出現了這個問題至於有沒有違反相關的公司治理問題我們認為金控對子公司的管理部分應該是有問題的當然有問題那只是呢我們的這個何苦"},{"start":7022.85,"end":7052.042,"text":"金融有這麼大問題照樣升官的升官這個都是很大的問題所以我在這邊雖然這個可能不是我們金管會的一個職權但是呢我會來做推動為了避免我們這些公庫金融公司下面的子公司這些人士裡面會不會有任用私人去藏私人包含自己銀行高層隨便任用"},{"start":7052.802,"end":7061.686,"text":"甚至我直接說其他的行政官員甚至包含我們院內有沒有立法委員的子女也塞進這些"},{"start":7063.82,"end":7083.421,"text":"公司裡面寄生公股機構公司那我告訴大家這個是我為什麼進入財政委員會我會特別特別的去把這些抓出來所以我在這邊因為我們有會議記錄我會推動一件事情就是我們現在"},{"start":7085.123,"end":7097.721,"text":"金控公司裡面的銀行它是過去因為它有制度是公開招考所以它有一定的標準它公開招考至少它要透明公開但它裡面有沒有問題還是有問題啦"},{"start":7100.202,"end":7128.995,"text":"但是至少他公開招考但是到了子公司的部分就沒有了所以裡面就容易有這些我直接說藏污納垢的現象所以我認為竟然我們銀行有招考子公司也應該比照做公開招考公開透明第一個你數字可以提升第二個你不會有這種私人人士的任用主委你同不同意"},{"start":7130.953,"end":7132.735,"text":"財團法人金融聯合徵信中心董事長有在現場嗎?"},{"start":7159.687,"end":7189.202,"text":"好來董事長沒有沒有主委你還是還是以你為主董事長請問你當時說要去聯合徵信中心你說你要抓中資你抓了幾件中資啊包括我也我沒有說這種話而且我也不知道這個話從哪邊來的我從來沒有講過這種話所以你有沒有抓到什麼中資嗎好OK來那個主委"},{"start":7192.503,"end":7214.833,"text":"我們現在精通除了我剛才講說有這種任用私人之外還有一個很大的問題就是年齡都根本超齡了過去總經理65、董事長68現在完全沒有人在遵守然後一樣70歲也照樣任用完全破壞規矩另外"},{"start":7215.942,"end":7234.737,"text":"在我們整個的金管會下面你們有幾個單位來拜訪我特別講他的資歷怎樣怎樣特別跟我講說我就是這家公司我是從基層做起我說很好至少你是有專業的你也不是呢是政治任命或者政治酬庸"},{"start":7235.908,"end":7262.249,"text":"今天很不好意思董事長在現場董事長1月份繼續擔任董事長但是你的年齡事實上已經超過65歲我今天讓你一個人站這邊其實對你有一點不好意思因為在我們的公股、金控什麼子公司、銀行像你這樣狀況比比皆是一拖拉顧啊我們怎麼金融改革改革成這個樣子呢對不對"},{"start":7265.796,"end":7289.654,"text":"而且我也認為金融就應該專業化我不客氣說董事長我今天為什麼請你過來因為你過去你長期你在這個之前你都是在我們現在林佳龍是總統府秘書長嘛都在他臺灣智庫的執行長嘛而且你主要的是過去是大陸研究所教授所以"},{"start":7291.864,"end":7303.899,"text":"現在主委啊,你下面的可能問題我都有,我會繼續檢查還沒有那麼大我看起來大部分都還是有它的專業性"},{"start":7306.314,"end":7326.487,"text":"但是我們的現在金控就是亂七八糟完全沒有過去所以搞到年輕人通通都要離開我們的金控公司沒有這種道理所以同樣的我會用這樣方式去責成財政部檢討他金控公司這些高層人士的任用"},{"start":7327.367,"end":7341.574,"text":"不要這樣的破壞規矩一再的破壞上面高層人士任用甚至政治仇傭下面呢大家也一樣任用私人我剛講了好幾個例子一個何苦一年被我抓出兩起不嚴重嗎?非常嚴重欸"},{"start":7344.375,"end":7364.877,"text":"何故難道不是很重要的重要的一個公股、金控公司嗎?所以同樣的,我也希望金管會下面、轄下的這些金融機構、相關機構,你們也等於專業、透明、公開,而且要符合相關的制度,可不可以?"},{"start":7365.874,"end":7386.239,"text":"是,我們會朝委員指示的方向去努力我這邊可不可以我講一兩句話但是跟委員講的也許不完全一致可不可以我可以跟您報告因為您請郭董事長上來我必須要跟您報告如果有冒犯您,您再指導他雖然年紀超過可是他在他任期"},{"start":7387.119,"end":7408.394,"text":"我跟我一起同時擔任他在永續金融跟金融科技方面真的是積極認識做了很多很多事所以我們是在他的專業跟過去績效的前提之下才同意他續任的我這點也許跟您的想法不一樣我還是要再因為您請他上來我還是要替他講幾句話不好意思跟您報告謝謝"},{"start":7410.291,"end":7426.436,"text":"因為我已經超時了你看我們的召委都已經站起來了你的說法我會聽但是我的這個原則還是希望能夠你們能夠遵循謝謝謝謝委員知道謝謝王宏偉委員的質詢接著我們請陳玉珍委員主席我們請黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":7442.937,"end":7442.957,"text":"委員長"},{"start":7446.94,"end":7457.667,"text":"我們金門地區最近3年發生的這個詐騙案有846件110年225件110年316件110年305件詐騙手法大概是假交友假投資然後101件解除分期付款49件假網派48件那詐騙件在假投資方面金門地區大概這幾年被詐騙大概有1億1488萬多還有假貿公營的1000多萬解除分期付款400多萬"},{"start":7477.2,"end":7483.063,"text":"金門人口結構快速老化65歲以上的老人佔總人口數的17%進入高齡社會常常有老人受騙、退休公務員、養老金被詐騙接一陣子金融評議中心有去金門表示要進一步跟金門的六齡學習中心合作、開展"},{"start":7504.412,"end":7529.114,"text":"更多的針對高齡居民的這個金融知識講座和培訓課程。除了這個以外,今晚會對於防止老人詐騙有什麼對策嗎?其實我們在今天的報告中有提到,如果是老年人他臨櫃的部分,他的匯款的額度,我們都有特別的一個感受。我有看到齁,有兩個嘛,三萬跟五十萬,我有看到齁。那除了這樣以外呢?"},{"start":7530.496,"end":7531.177,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7547.971,"end":7548.111,"text":"財政委員會長"},{"start":7565.646,"end":7591.257,"text":"去368個鄉鎮跟2萬多個社區民眾面對面的溝通那請委員如果您同意的話安排這樣子的活動那我們繼續再往下請問這個主委證券交易法第6條規定裡面規定有價證券指政府債券、公司股票、公司債券等等有價證券新股認購的權利證書新股權利證書還有其他有價證券四位有價證券那前兩項這你相當熟悉我想請問您"},{"start":7603.802,"end":7616.805,"text":"這是個有限合夥人在有限合夥的出資而是不是證券交易法所規定的有價證券?這個我不太清楚,看政經局,因為我這個定義部分要很小心講出來。這位副局長,哪一位可以回答?"},{"start":7624.209,"end":7626.451,"text":"有價證券對不特定人做招募可能涉及到有價證券的招募行為。"},{"start":7655.61,"end":7663.498,"text":"但是有價證券出資額這個東西來講比如說一般的民間公司它也是有出資額這個歸不歸你們監管?"},{"start":7665.851,"end":7684.4,"text":"一般的沒有上市櫃的公司因為它也是有價證券嘛我們歸管的公司法所募集發行的股票股份有限公司的股票是所有中華民國所有的股份有限公司的"},{"start":7687.962,"end":7714.58,"text":"報告委員公司法成立股份有限公司那他發行股票但是他發行股票以後不見得是證交法管的要做一個補辦公開發行做資訊接到才會進到我們所以到了公開所以我們把這個切清楚嗎所以到了公開發行如果有到公開發行的那個階段才歸你們管是嗎對他要做公開發行他開始做公開開始要公開發行就歸你們管"},{"start":7717.661,"end":7731.945,"text":"公開發行其實我們的概念是資訊的公開發行不是說他做公開發行就是把股票賣給不特定的人這個行為是受到證交法即使他沒有公開發行他做這個行為就是違反證交法22條的規定"},{"start":7733.991,"end":7736.632,"text":"所以我的問題很簡單就只有這個題目有限合夥人在有限合夥的出資額是不是屬於有價證券的範圍"},{"start":7747.425,"end":7764.55,"text":"為公開發行的股票是不是屬於有價證券的範圍?貴不貴證交法這個你們管的範圍?如果它在我們境內做公開招募的行為然後是股票的話就會觸犯到證交法的規定所以歸你們管"},{"start":7767.028,"end":7781.127,"text":"所以歸你們管轄範圍啦歸你們監管啦就是他要有公開募集的行為的時候他才會歸到我們管我會問這個問題是因為有事實上國內有這個很多的這個新創這個公司的業者事實上我好像"},{"start":7782.068,"end":7805.928,"text":"上一屆也跟你們討論過新創公司募集資金的問題我們舉了一些例子那時候跟你們說2012年美國的歐巴馬政府要解決我說的是新創公司取得資金的方式歐巴馬政府有提出一個股權群募法案叫Jobs Act英國的FCA也提出監理沙盒"},{"start":7808.811,"end":7827.446,"text":"新加坡的金融管理局也有提出一個全新的投資基金管理架構有別一般的公司法但是我們國家在做新創公司募集新創公司要做募集資金的方面我們做了什麼事情2014年我們有維景櫃買中心推動了創櫃板2015年有做了股權性質"},{"start":7834.031,"end":7843.939,"text":"群眾募資管理有7家業者2017年有一個什麼金融科技發展創新條例喊出要把臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心我想請教2015年做的7家的群眾募資管理辦法7家業者獲得經營到目前為止"},{"start":7854.486,"end":7872.038,"text":"這個的確是櫃台買賣中心有Craft Funding創櫃也是2013年開始去做的櫃台買賣中心董事長、總經理列席這個7家那時候獲准金融以後到目前為止金融的績效如何?"},{"start":7881.332,"end":7909.691,"text":"委員報告當初有申請7家但現在只有3家還維持著牌照但是基本上都沒有有在經營嗎沒有在經營沒有什麼特別業務沒有什麼在經營對不對對對對沒有什麼在經營當初我們為了這個國內要推動這個新創公司的募集資金要做這方面的努力鼓勵新創公司但是這7家現在基本上都沒有在經營那請問2017年你們所做這個金融科技發展創新實驗條例"},{"start":7911.553,"end":7925.383,"text":"這這個新創的成果如何呢?到目前為止有多少個案件呢?報告委員我可不可以這樣跟您報告?如果你是關心我們對於創新事業的募資的籌集我們現在櫃買中心以前的戰略新版現在已經合併成為創衛版跟證交所的創新版"},{"start":7931.027,"end":7954.26,"text":"但是我們要看你們的歷史表現嘛你們2015年有推動這個有7家業者成立嘛,獲准嘛那剛剛我們歸買中心告訴我說現在是基本上都沒有任何人在推動報告委員我可以跟您報告Crawl Founding 跟創新不完全是連結的它是一個群眾為了特定的目的它大家集資去做的一件事情但是創惠版也有一些特別寬鬆的條件"},{"start":7956.142,"end":7975.814,"text":"我問的就是你們的過去的業績做得怎麼樣?櫃買中心就你們在推這個當初有7家後來你說現在歇業只剩下3家這3家又沒有任何的新創的這個產生你們有沒有去檢討過這個所發生的原因?可能的原因是什麼?為什麼會這樣?因為我們國家一直在推動新創嘛支持這個新創產生"},{"start":7976.854,"end":7997.933,"text":"那委員我可以跟您報告其實從2020開始我們交易所跟購買中心都在推動創新版包括戰略新版我們可以把那個報告那個是創新版吧我說的是你們所推動的這個7家到現在基本上都是歇業然後請你告訴我你的金融科技發展創新實驗條例的這個新創業者的這個成果有多少件"},{"start":7998.453,"end":8021.027,"text":"那個是金融科技的我問的是兩個問題嘛我要問的是你們過去做的怎麼樣嘛剛剛那個基本上就是零嘛成績是零嘛那這個呢那個不是零東協業不叫零不然叫什麼養德大樓樓上有個創新園區有好幾十家各國的創新業者剛剛我問的是櫃板中心他剛不是跟我說零嗎他剛不是說沒有在做嗎"},{"start":8022.11,"end":8046.411,"text":"那是群眾募資目前沒有?沒有在做嗎?但是創櫃板還是有?我是問創櫃板,我剛剛就是問你群募啊。群募那個不見得叫做創新,那是一個集資的一個作為。我問的是綜合的,我問的就是你這個,你不用跟我玩這個文字遊戲,你過去的這個7家的結果是怎麼樣?你們既然要往國家往這個方向去走,走創新產業的方向去走,你們就應該要,你們推動這個應該要一個,"},{"start":8048.152,"end":8067.009,"text":"至少有一定的業績,那如果沒有,請你告訴我是什麼原因嗎?可以嗎?創新是有業績,但是Crawl Founding不是等於創新,那是一個集資。好,麻煩你齁,因為時間到,麻煩你齁,我剛剛問的這個問題齁,把相關的資料準備好,我們準備一份呈給委員參考。好,謝謝,多久呢?"},{"start":8068.112,"end":8073.201,"text":"一個月之內是不是可以?一個月喔?好,謝謝。謝謝委員,謝謝。謝謝陳一尊委員的質詢。待會我們在顏匡文委員質詢之後休息10分鐘。接著我們請吳立華委員質詢。"},{"start":8101.095,"end":8102.703,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請黃主委有請黃主委"},{"start":8109.356,"end":8110.457,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8139.136,"end":8162.782,"text":"那目前最新的話應該是說是一個3.0版那我看到的是有公告永續經濟活動認定參考的指引那辦理永續金融評鑑或者是要求上市貴公司定期發布永續報告等等那這個部分我們當然知道這個永續的概念"},{"start":8164.062,"end":8182.87,"text":"是在這個3.0榜當中其實是避免一些票率啦就是宣稱他有對一些對永續環境的這樣的一個做法但是可能實際上沒有但是我比較想了解請教主委的是這個永續的概念有沒有包含原住民族的金融"},{"start":8184.538,"end":8212.942,"text":"我們現在這三個階段基本上都是以機構為主就是金融機構跟上市會公司那原住民部分在普惠方面是有涵蓋是帶給您報告其實我會這樣問是因為我了解其他國家他們其實有在關注原住民的金融服務以澳洲來看那澳洲有一個澳洲可持續金融倡議第一個他有要求"},{"start":8213.802,"end":8220.845,"text":"建立原住民的金融服務辦公室關注原住民金融架構設計與服務包容性鼓勵金融機構讓原住民獲得"},{"start":8230.289,"end":8250.058,"text":"銀行的服務跟退休金的服務那另外呢他們也會強化對原住民有益而且適當的保險產品那更重要的是呢他們對於一些投資者所做的淨值調查他們也會去看有沒有尊重原住民的權利那另外像紐西蘭這個國家"},{"start":8251.278,"end":8254.623,"text":"貿易商業永續金融中心貿易商業永續金融中心貿易商業永續金融中心貿易商業永續金融中心"},{"start":8270.122,"end":8291.537,"text":"與銀行合作去支持一些針對毛利土地貸款的解決方案那舉個例子他們也會針對一些想要蓋房子的去做一個專案計畫幫助他們去做辦理貸款建造房屋又或者呢我們看到加拿大那加拿大的做法是他們有一個永續金融行動的委員會"},{"start":8292.518,"end":8315.166,"text":"他們重視的是加強原住民在永續金融的一個參與那他們有一個叫綠色與轉型金融分類路徑圖當中有一個叫不造成重大損害的評估他就有去包含尊重原住民權利跟和解這個部分所以我想要請教一下主委那您有沒有一些看法想法"},{"start":8315.546,"end":8339.382,"text":"因為在您初次來辦公室拜訪的時候我有跟您提到我很關心未來原住民土地在我們金融服務的一個角色那我覺得您是非常友善也很有想法那我是在想說是否有讓原住民族參與強化或支持族人金融安全那也避免這個所謂的票率在受信的"},{"start":8339.662,"end":8342.183,"text":"主委,您帶來更廣泛的社會價值,讓我們學習,非常感謝。您提到的,如果從上數位公司來講,"},{"start":8360.208,"end":8385.926,"text":"我們現在的永續報告書是依照荷蘭GRI去編制的那它這裡面是有定有原住民相關規範有幾個原則來揭露包括不歧視原住民那永無違反原住民人權對原住民員工的照顧那這些如果上次會公司有做這些事或是做了這些事有影響他都應該在永續報告書說去揭露"},{"start":8386.368,"end":8411.024,"text":"所以目前已經有這樣規劃了嗎?有這樣子的規範只是而且不只如此因為我們要求金融機構做投融資的時候要跟要做議核那如果後面的那個投資的對象他有牽涉到原住民這當然也應該是在這個裡面議核的範圍之內所以原則上應該是有那我們會強化落實好那如果有的話因為我自己看我是看不到"},{"start":8411.784,"end":8439.382,"text":"我看了綠色金融行動方案3.0又或者是永續經濟活動的認定方法我目前是看不到但是主委您說有嘛所以我是在想說是不是可以請金管會聯同園民會這邊能夠就永續金融架構中剛才您說有那我是在想說如果有的話又或者沒有那是不是要去做一些修改那是不是三個月內可以讓我可以看到一個書面報告"},{"start":8440.916,"end":8462.337,"text":"好,委員會您報告,因為我們也了解國內現在的園民會其實他統籌原住民各類型的經濟活動相關的活動那這個事情如果你也可不可以麻煩委員業跟原住民委員會提一下我們會跟他去諮詢溝通,其實在維新保險方面金管會跟原住民委員會都有很好的合作"},{"start":8462.857,"end":8488.614,"text":"對沒有關係我是希望說能夠在金管會的架構底下因為畢竟園民會他其實並不是所謂的金融專業單位好我想委員您的期許跟指示我們會跟園民會溝通看看我們的綠色金融現在這個方案中有沒有可以增加一些關注原住民的政策是不是這樣可以我們三個月之內給您完成我就是希望可以看到這些好不好"},{"start":8489.274,"end":8514.11,"text":"因為我們也很羨慕國外的做法我們也是很進步的國家希望我們也能夠有這些好的服務主委其實我講這些還是要回歸到一件事情因為這件事情其實困擾原住民幾十年也讓原住民窮的只剩下土地原住民是在自己的土地當故宮"},{"start":8515.211,"end":8540.45,"text":"就是一個這樣的窘境困境那因為我們就跟很多各地原住民國家一樣就是原住民保留地他其實有所謂的土地的一些限制問題但是我們的原保地很大喔像私有的話大概有13萬公頃公有的原保地也有13萬公頃可是我要跟主委講"},{"start":8541.491,"end":8557.258,"text":"這一些土地其實早就已經流失大半雖然原住民的保留地只能限制給原住民不能流入非原住民但是道高一尺 魔高一丈這些年透過各種方法"},{"start":8557.938,"end":8573.285,"text":"包括我們的設定抵押、借名登記等等那乃至於現在因為我們有進法補償金這幾年所以呢也很多人都把它視為很搶手的拍地霧甚至"},{"start":8573.985,"end":8586.691,"text":"有很多人就是透過原住民自己用現金去直接收購很多很多的原保地那我們也不知道會留作什麼用途所以在這個地方我很希望說能夠趕快遏止這樣的現象我們來看一下"},{"start":8590.913,"end":8606.928,"text":"一般的林地我們可以看到它在市場建價其實是可以帶到很多就是以市場建價即便是打八成都有400萬但是元寶地是被拒絕的而且是用公道限值去算"},{"start":8607.469,"end":8636.378,"text":"所以他的價值同樣的一公頃他可能只有160萬可是我們現在就是想說這樣的一個求貸無門就會落入另外一個財務陷阱因為我們到google打元寶地貸款其實啪啦啪啦啪啦一堆但是他們都是私人當鋪而且呢月利率你可以看到這樣其實年利率他就是幾乎就是高利貸但是我接過很多的陳情案他明明只有借一萬元可能兩年後他要還三十幾萬"},{"start":8637.758,"end":8653.153,"text":"為什麼因為他根本對利率一點概念都沒有他可能拿到的是日利率所以我想這個月利13%就已經高利但很可怕了所以我想說這樣的一個惡性循環我是希望說主委您剛剛有提到"},{"start":8653.653,"end":8681.666,"text":"就是我們可不可以去協調這些銀行公會就是禁止金融機構拒絕以原保地做擔保能夠有禁止歧視條款另外您也有提到過就是增加銀行的誘因那能不能夠在ESG永續軍融的評鑑給予加分又或者是參考紐西蘭的做法建立我們原保地的建架系統能夠跟特定的銀行合作給予我們一些專案的金融服務我想"},{"start":8683.127,"end":8695.92,"text":"這個部分是我很在意的那希望主委您是不是有可能就是去討論一些對策那能夠一併的就是也在兩個月或三個月內給予回覆"},{"start":8697.119,"end":8712.914,"text":"是委員提出案子去年10月財政部有討論過了那當然主要還是因為移轉的限制不過我們會遵循委員的意見去跟跨部會做研究包括跟我們的銀行工會去做研究是就照您的意思兩個月之後跟您回覆"},{"start":8713.334,"end":8732.4,"text":"好那非常謝謝主委但是這個研究可行性我們盡量朝您期待的方向去努力是是好謝謝主委給予這樣的一個友善跟肯定支持的答覆感謝您好謝謝主委謝謝主席感謝武力華委員的質詢接著我們請嚴匡衡委員質詢"},{"start":8757.584,"end":8764.174,"text":"主席各位列席官員大家好主席要先請金管委主委有請黃天牧主委是委員長主委早"},{"start":8770.68,"end":8772.401,"text":"虛擬貨幣為何無法當作貨幣使用?"},{"start":8790.595,"end":8815.222,"text":"一般的理解因為虛擬貨幣的價格起伏太大那穩定性低那也無法成為長期支付的工具那有一群一個個體不再受任何中央實體的管制那所以虛擬貨幣去中心化發行這種形式一旦出現任何狀況那無任何發行人或者是機構來負責是不是這樣"},{"start":8818.434,"end":8826.6,"text":"他是一個去中心化而且他就是波動性很高沒有內在價值這些都是他的相對來的弱點"},{"start":8830.812,"end":8846.588,"text":"虛擬貨幣發行門檻低、交易自由度高,容易被不法人士利用,作為洗錢、知恐、逃稅的工具。虛擬貨幣現在雖然是金管會的業務,但是定位不明。您可否告訴我目前是屬於轄下的哪一個業務機關來負責?"},{"start":8848.53,"end":8861.035,"text":"社根委員報告：去年3月行政院指示：屬於投資性質的虛擬資產是由金管會那我們現在請政局局負責那等一下齁因為我先把問題說完那"},{"start":8863.939,"end":8891.917,"text":"因為目前我們金管會有沒有監管處罰虛擬貨幣犯罪的法令以及虛擬貨幣屬於金管會來主管但是處罰貨幣犯罪的法令是否有效的保護投資人及交易人有沒有辦法減少受到詐騙的機會這個部分我跟委員報告我們管是管那個平台"},{"start":8892.984,"end":8917.735,"text":"那就是說他透過虛幣在網路上去詐騙那個不是金管會監管的目的那現在有我們根據洗房法有罰過一個個人避傷他沒有去申報洗錢房子的聲明移送到金管會那我們就給他處分了是有那所以我說剛剛提到就是說有沒有完整的一個處罰的法則明定如何處罰這些犯罪的行為"},{"start":8921.345,"end":8939.753,"text":"只有根據洗房法違反的部分有處分的規定其他目前沒有。VSP指導原則有要求應就虛擬資產白皮書內容與上下架制定審查標準及程序並納入內部控管"},{"start":8940.731,"end":8968.802,"text":"也要求如果透過平臺發行之虛擬資產發行人因於其網站公告所編制的白皮書那平臺應公告該網站連署但虛擬平臺上下架的標準是什麼什麼樣的虛擬資產是好的是適合上架的有沒有一個什麼標準有這個我們是有原則那要請平臺業者自己去做訂定那他也要成立工會那是不是請副局長跟您報告"},{"start":8971.906,"end":8998.627,"text":"報告委員有關這個上下架當然就是依照平台業者他們自己的內控和審核標準然後定在內控裡面那我們這個指導原則也是希望他們有明確的標準所以他們成立工會以後他們會去訂定工會的相關自立規則那這些自立規則如果就像我們剛剛在剛剛一開始就本席前面前述提到的那如果有犯法的嫌違那沒有一個實體可以負責"},{"start":9001.278,"end":9016.833,"text":"平臺是要去負責的平臺是要去負責的那我們相關的法則有沒有現在是我就是跟委員報告我們目前只有洗房法的依據目前還沒有專法那我想要請教市場准入的標準就是說"},{"start":9018.314,"end":9042.485,"text":"市場準入市場的一個誠信跟交易的安全是非常重要那證券跟期貨交易所都有一個具體的規範手段就是透過特許還有執照來控制市場的準入那在VASP的指導原則當中雖然需要完成洗錢防治法令遵循的聲明但是這並非市場準入的規定依照歐盟"},{"start":9043.365,"end":9055.736,"text":"的一個加密資產市場規範有意要向公眾發行與平台上架交易虛擬資產的法人必須向該國主管機關申請核准五國有沒有這樣的措施?"},{"start":9056.877,"end":9081.473,"text":"我們跟您報告分兩階段那第一個階段當然長遠之際就是我們未來定一個專法那現在我們有建議那個洗房法增進一條對於這個以這個虛擬資產為業的來必須要有登記那這部分還在討論中吧專法還在討論中專法在研究中但是可不可以在洗房法裡面安一個條文"},{"start":9084.133,"end":9105.658,"text":"讓這個經營虛擬資產的業者來先做登記,因為他基本上常見的問題就是防止洗錢的問題。好,那這個我剛剛所講了,虛擬貨幣無法成為長期的置物工具,因為它容易成為一個投資炒作的標的。許多的虛擬資產平台都有提供相關的服務,這就造成了很多的不當銷售。"},{"start":9106.978,"end":9123.888,"text":"不當銷售的風險包含為如實陳述的商品還有推銷不適用的商品給客戶那這樣子的情況都很有可能發生變成一個詐欺案件金融法院目前採取的管制方式就是要求他們自律式的管制還有沒有其他做法"},{"start":9124.688,"end":9147.043,"text":"就是還有洗房法的規定,既有檢查有去檢查但是你說就是用洗房法,那當客戶端這一邊一旦發現這個遭受到這樣子的一個現象的時候或者是說變成一個買賣不實或者是一個詐欺案件那再回頭去追溯,這個已經來不及了"},{"start":9149.747,"end":9166.566,"text":"所以我跟委員報告,詐欺當然不是金管會,我們知道會移送或是檢調當然會處理,但是我們去精檢的時候不是只是看他的洗錢防治,也會看他有沒有根據我們去年9月份的指導原則去做,也會列一些檢查的意見讓他去改進。"},{"start":9168.404,"end":9170.645,"text":"這也是我們目前在專法研究上的一個方向專法有沒有一個期程?"},{"start":9197.636,"end":9225.501,"text":"我們大概半年後會提出來一個草案半年後?這個會期不會提出來?這個不會因為還在針對現在各國的情況去做研究接下來因為時間不多接下來的問題包括電子支付請教主委臺灣目前有多少電子支付的業者?可不可以告訴我?大概有差不多10家左右吧10家嗎?30家以上吧?"},{"start":9226.843,"end":9249.411,"text":"沒有那個是兼營的專營的話是實交那可不可以告訴我目前我們像我剛剛在首管我們目前根據資料顯示去年2023年因詐騙案件的總財損就高達79億或許更多因為很多沒有呈現出來"},{"start":9250.791,"end":9269.966,"text":"那詐騙集團往往都透過境外的IP來進行詐騙那當這些當事人發現的時候要來找源頭已經來不及那源頭的控管是最重要所以金管會這邊作為這個主管機關有沒有什麼作為一個措施"},{"start":9270.982,"end":9294.357,"text":"其實這也是我們報告中前面11頁在說的就是電資部分也會去看他後面連結的是不是跟他允許在銀行開戶的電話號碼是一個用這種方式去年已經降低了九成的這些件數所以您這邊所提示的三萬五千件跟七十幾億是不是都是電資也許會後我再跟您請示如果不是電資的話應該不只這樣子那規模應該更龐大"},{"start":9299.56,"end":9323.26,"text":"我們今天的報告書的內容裡面我們有看到就是說我們有很多的這個宣導在校園還有在社區還有拍攝這個這個演示的這種短短影音來做宣導那除了宣導之外還有沒有什麼更更強硬的措施"},{"start":9325.582,"end":9353.571,"text":"強硬的措施其實就是從金流的過程中電資這邊去提醒丟花包括OPT的這些這些提醒就是我想說防詐也會有同步的去處理因為除了宣導之外一定還會有更好的方法因為新形態的詐騙五花八門那不論是虛擬貨幣或者是電子支付都有相當都有很多的便利性那當然"},{"start":9354.831,"end":9368.281,"text":"責騙集團就會利用這個便利性來有機可乘所以我剛剛提到這些是呈現出來的財損的部分那沒有呈現出來或許更多那我們如何讓台灣不會成為詐騙之島"},{"start":9371.203,"end":9396.756,"text":"這個部分這個惡名我不希望說臺灣被冠上這個惡名所以這個監管會主委你身為監管會的主委我們希望能夠在我們未來能夠找出一個更好的方法尤其在源頭的控管能夠有更好的一個作為好不好是謝謝委員主導我們會全力以赴謝謝委員謝謝主委謝謝顏寬恒委員的質詢我們休息10分鐘謝謝"},{"start":10253.114,"end":10269.67,"text":"好,我們繼續開會,接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。好,我想請主委。有請黃主委。"},{"start":10281.01,"end":10309.171,"text":"是委員長是主委長我想今天很多的委員都提到了在臺灣張榮總執行的時候也問過院長我們目前已經有詐騙之島的稱號那今天很多委員也提到了我想問一下對於金管會來說我們國人的詐騙案件如此的大量而且增加的幅度也不小問題到底出在哪裡"},{"start":10311.684,"end":10325.883,"text":"在情政院主柵平台有幾個面向那金管會是屬於主柵部分金流主柵那市柵也做了一些事情金流大概就是在零貴的部分跟網路跟轉帳方面我們做好把關的工作"},{"start":10326.303,"end":10340.11,"text":"所以主委還是沒有辦法說明清楚為什麼詐騙對臺灣人特別有效因為詐騙的案件不斷的變化、多元化甚至有新興的所謂投資詐騙越來越猖獗這個投資詐騙在臺灣現在已經成為詐騙案件的主力了對吧?"},{"start":10347.276,"end":10364.065,"text":"所以我們去年修《投信投股法》70至1條沒錯,也就是說表示民眾是有投資的需要但是他沒有投資的知識或者是相關的素養在金管會其實應該是在金融素養方面應該是主管業者吧"},{"start":10365.802,"end":10379.189,"text":"是我們的責任所以你們也發布了所謂的金融知識普及工作第7期的推動工作所以金融素養推動在金管會是你們的重要業務之一我看到你的報告也這樣寫對吧"},{"start":10380.663,"end":10399.19,"text":"而且不只是我們做是跨部會跟公司合夥一起做好但是主委就像我們剛剛講的這麼多人被詐騙這麼多人容易上當他其實是一個嚴重的就是我們對於所謂的金融或投資的素養不足的情況金融研訓院去2022年公佈臺灣金融生活調查"},{"start":10404.072,"end":10427.235,"text":"這個裡面統計起來有高達四成的20到29歲的年輕人是接近金融文盲也就是說20到29歲年輕人幾乎對於金融沒有任何概念這是現實的狀態這也是國人在金融素養上面很大的缺口金管會有什麼看法"},{"start":10428.277,"end":10444.98,"text":"這表示其實我們過去所做的還有在努力的空間也就是說這個調查結果看了非常的詫異就是20到29幾乎是四成是金融文盲所以年輕族群現在成為投資詐騙的主要高風險族群那高風險裡面"},{"start":10447.097,"end":10461.827,"text":"對於他們沒有財經處長這件事情我們的國家其實沒有相關的目標或者是規劃這邊我跟主委分享一個經驗我們在台北市曾經推動在台北的高中"},{"start":10462.648,"end":10480.321,"text":"高中推動所謂的財經素養財經素養課程我們是請臺大教授然後找了非常多業界的業師進到高中裡面提供財經素養的選秀課一開始是用試辦的方式後來到現在為止臺北、台中、新北"},{"start":10481.516,"end":10508.343,"text":"高中裡面都有所謂財經素養的課程但是它差異最大的是因為一般教育單位他們給的終點費一個小時是400塊但是這些業師他不太可能為了400塊去學校上課所以我當時在台北市擔任副市長的時候我們是去找相關的基金會募了一些款所以業師的講師費大概是一個小時3000塊"},{"start":10510.684,"end":10530.222,"text":"這個目前已經在臺北市三分之二的高中成為選秀課目前推廣到臺中跟新北所以主委這些是財經素養進入高中的一個方法我不知道金管會剛剛講這是你的業館第二個金融知識普及工作也是你的主觀業務"},{"start":10531.984,"end":10541.737,"text":"這個工作能不能請金管會跟教育部甚至各地方政府的教育單位一起來把財經素養列為重要的高中選修課程。"},{"start":10542.842,"end":10564.117,"text":"謝謝委員分享您非常成功的臺北經驗那其實我也跟您報告過去十幾年來我們走入校園從小學到大學有超過一百萬人次也是跟教育部合作但是我想委員您的經驗一定有我們可以學習的地方我們會再跟您多請教主委就是我剛剛講嘛你從小學到大學做到現在是有四成是文盲啊是"},{"start":10564.617,"end":10586.777,"text":"所以你的高中如果可以在他們因為現在課剛修正之後是可以有很多素養課程這個是已經實行過所以您今天可以答應我說在金融知識普及工作裡面你們可以編訂相關的預算來協助我剛剛講的類似在高中裡面選修課程的財經素養課程嗎?或者是說一樣也請相關的業界"},{"start":10587.978,"end":10602.449,"text":"我們當律師的每年都有公益法律服務的時數規定如果可能的話監管會是不是可以透過類似的做法要求金融相關的從業人員他每年有一定的協助這樣子的"},{"start":10603.61,"end":10620.281,"text":"教育推動也有一些公益服務的時數也可以成為將來跟公司協力來推動所謂財經素養至少在我們的教育方面在我們的年輕人的財經素養上面可以有一天的報告不會是四成是文盲"},{"start":10621.101,"end":10644.861,"text":"委員您的垂詢我們會全力以赴,但是有些地方不足的地方……你要給錢還要找人啊?這個我們都有相關周邊單要一起合作。在新政府上任之後,這件事情成為金管會重要的推動方向之一。詐騙之島要從臺灣的惡名中除去,我們要先讓下一代對於"},{"start":10645.982,"end":10656.175,"text":"他的將來的理財有一些基本的概念對於投資有一些基本的知識而不會輕易的受騙上當這是第一步而已"},{"start":10657.216,"end":10681.218,"text":"第二個部分就是接下去的是那融資公司主委融資公司歸不歸你管目前不是不是那你覺得你該不該管你該不該管委員這個道理其實過去也96年97年到107年都有報過行政院都沒有沒有主委那你有沒有看過有一個影片叫做山盜猴子有看過對啊"},{"start":10682.439,"end":10702.486,"text":"你對那個年輕人就剛剛講年輕人的財經素養有一定的差距然後免頭款、全貸款還有多帶一筆錢去改裝車子所以不斷的用車子去借了更多的錢融資公司在臺灣已經成為金融體系劃外之地了你同意嗎?"},{"start":10704.612,"end":10728.086,"text":"委員您的垂詢我們有做處理那那個影片所揭露的事情有些我現在要講的是這些融資公司已經是我們的影子銀行了這個影子銀行不斷的做大在臺北市朱立民商業同業公會光2022年的他們的融資金額在臺北市一個城市高達7253億在臺北市登記有案的融資金額高達7000億諸位啊"},{"start":10734.386,"end":10761.911,"text":"如果一個融資公司是這麼大的系統它是不是一個很龐大的金融類似金融體系的相關系統而他們在金融監管以外現在是全臺灣最大的影子銀行監管會目前我們有三大一個是中租一個是育融一個是合潤他們的資產已經高達一兆五千億然後他們應收賬款"},{"start":10763.496,"end":10772.411,"text":"放在外面的錢應收賬款高達一兆目前沒有人管你也不管那請問這是誰在管"},{"start":10773.137,"end":10797.51,"text":"報告委員我跟兩部分跟您報告這三家都是上市公司是那上市公司交易所本來就會用內控的角度去做查核包括他的財務第二點我們前一段時間有約談這三家公司其中包括一家公司也對那個影片中的事實做了一個重訓做澄清主委現在的問題就在於因為他沒有基本進入所謂的金融機構"},{"start":10799.151,"end":10827.049,"text":"相關體系像金管會這樣嚴格的管控但是它涉及的規模的金流這是非常非常重大也就是說你現在納管的叫電子支付一年的金額是2400億然後接下去我們現在正在規範的叫做虛擬通貨平台有另一個辦法也就是說這些我們目前金額規模都不到那麼大的情況下都納管了"},{"start":10827.648,"end":10844.108,"text":"融資租賃公司沒有道理淪落在銀行或金管會之外也就是你2000多億的也管300多億的也管但是就是不管這個7、8億上兆的金融資產所謂的融資租賃公司這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":10844.889,"end":10847.111,"text":"主委我只有一個要求這些包括電子支付、包括虛擬資產金管會都做了最低成數的監管"},{"start":10866.169,"end":10886.599,"text":"是融資租賃公司我覺得至少要比照虛擬資產業者做洗房申明還有相關的基本最低程度的納管你同意嗎?這我們已經做了2018評鑑的時候我們就已經就歸根結束了金管會把融資租賃也納管這才是我們今天最大的需求"},{"start":10887.139,"end":10913.597,"text":"如果可以的話請主委把這個列為未來的工作重點好嗎我們可以研究因為這我跟您報告現在公司分際有融資業務的有6800多家我們到底這個東西範圍跟它的定義是什麼還要再確定我們要管什麼是不是要管這個東西要在所以我只要求最低的就好以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝謝謝黃常常委員的諮詢接著我們請李坤澄委員諮詢"},{"start":10923.203,"end":10946.891,"text":"來謝謝主席我們請黃主委先讓你先喝口茶黃主委好是委員長這個辛苦了一早上也問了這麼多回了我先請教一下這個在2020年的時候受到新冠肺炎的疫情的影響那所以呢我們金管會呢就停付中國實力精簡"},{"start":10948.325,"end":10973.247,"text":"然後我看你們在2024年的預算書上面有提到說有計劃打算在今年3月到11月要赴中國經檢但是去中國經檢都必須跟中方事先先取得聯繫同意之後才能成行這幾個禮拜以來因為中國快艇的非法越界逃避海巡查緝的翻船事件"},{"start":10974.068,"end":10986.282,"text":"兩岸的關係有那麼一點點緊張那我想請問一下主委這個有沒有這個計畫繼續這個要到中國經檢那有跟中方聯繫嗎那預計何時會過去"},{"start":10990.291,"end":11018.134,"text":"因為我們跟對岸有千里千里備忘錄所以各國都一樣要去對方實地監檢需要經過對方主管機關同意那今年會去但是進度到什麼是不是請局長給你報告我意思是說有跟中方聯繫了嗎因為我看預算書上面是有這個計畫對我們今天是有這個計畫目前正在跟那個陸委會在報備中陸委會如果他說同意了我們就會進一步再跟大陸這邊再做聯繫"},{"start":11019.301,"end":11028.248,"text":"所以現在是還要陸委會同意才跟中方聯繫所以現在還沒跟中方聯繫就對了還沒有那就是說那過去的時間呢?預計咧?"},{"start":11032.403,"end":11053.695,"text":"就是看聯繫的結果就是陸委會這邊先給我們表示正面的意見之後我們就會跟對方監理機關聯繫所以是有打算要去就對了有那就是等陸委會那邊的決定就對了不是只是等陸委會決定之後再跟中方聯繫嘛確認他沒有任何其他的意見我們就會跟對方監理機關去跟他請教他們的意見"},{"start":11055.481,"end":11075.534,"text":"好 這個我有看你們的這個報告那其實你們這個報告裡面第一點就提到了這個未來工作重點就是防制金融詐騙保障國人權益那真的是這個大家所關心的就是打詐騙那其實我們在這個選舉的時候常常就遇到說這個詐騙實在太氾濫了"},{"start":11076.975,"end":11096.437,"text":"當然我也知道說政府是做了很多的準備的工作那其中你們有提到說林桂關懷的成效那當然我看就是說就112年這個攔阻的這個案件有增加增加了這個3321件攔阻的金額也有增加增加了33.48億元"},{"start":11099.982,"end":11116.255,"text":"這兩年來藍組的金額大概是118億這是你們的報告當然業務報告上面寫說這個是成效顯著也是為自己的加油打氣但是跟民眾的實際的感受"},{"start":11117.316,"end":11133.094,"text":"還是有落差的我拿這個中正大學犯罪研究中心他們所公布的當然這是111年或許112年會比較高一點點他們對於這個犯罪防治滿意度的調查研究報告其中啊"},{"start":11133.955,"end":11156.991,"text":"關於說民眾對政府在詐騙、犯罪防治的表現有超過半數五成三還是不滿意那表示說政府所做的跟民眾的期待還是有落差那我再拿這個刑事警察局的統計來做個說明這個刑事警察局統計這個詐騙的案數我就舉2022跟2023好了詐騙的案數是增加的從2萬9增加到3萬7"},{"start":11164.095,"end":11178.44,"text":"財產的損失也是增加的,從73.2億增加到88.7億。攔阻金額當然我們做了很多打詐的一些措施,零貴關懷等等。攔阻的金額也有增加,從50.5億到89.8億。當然就是說從正面的說法來看,"},{"start":11187.515,"end":11207.403,"text":"這兩年攔阻的金額有140億但是財產損失方面有160億財產損失還是比攔阻的還要多這是刑事警察局的統計然後就財產損失跟攔阻的金額把它加起來當作是一個詐騙的規模好了"},{"start":11210.594,"end":11237.048,"text":"在2022年是123億就是財產損失加上攬主金額的但是2023年就達到178億所以整個攬主金額加上這個詐騙的財產損失實際上整個詐騙的規模還是增加的想請教一下主委的看法我當然知道政府很用心打詐無法在去年5月底的都通過了但是這個數字都還是增加的"},{"start":11238.953,"end":11267.647,"text":"委員其實詐騙有好幾個界面那剛才講的一百億那是零貴關懷那另外還有比如說網路約定轉帳還有投資詐騙這些其實都不是剛才前面的數字所涵蓋的那其實我在報告中的第五頁跟第七頁都有講今年第一季有些新的措施就揮名單的通報好那我就請教你新的措施在3月1號有一個新的措施這是按照這個洗錢防治法的一個規定"},{"start":11270.188,"end":11287.101,"text":"這個大概就是有關於這個人頭賬戶的限制嗎?對,初屆人頭賬戶他得到他的一個裁罰。對,從3月1號開始嗎?對。那我是按照這個警政署的一個數字好了。我看看齁。這個規定。"},{"start":11290.469,"end":11315.08,"text":"這個規定落實之後啦因為是去年5月底啦去年5月底這個我們這個打詐無法其中有關洗錢房市法修正的通過然後呢他說到3月1號法務部的新聞稿到現在為止有超過一萬兩千人受到告誡的處分那就是說這一萬兩千人是適用這個新的規定就對了是他的帳戶的功能跟額度都會受到限制受到什麼樣的限制"},{"start":11315.731,"end":11344.074,"text":"就是他也許每天一天只能使用一定的金額或他轉帳各方面都有他等於說他的自由使用的金融的這種帳戶的權利受到克制我看你們新聞稿上面是寫的大概每天轉帳不能超過一萬塊啦是阿所以說這個新法這個這個洗錢防治法修正在去年5月30號通過之後到現在3月1號看這個數字大概有一萬兩千人受到告誡的處分這個是警察在做處理的嘛"},{"start":11345.539,"end":11353.806,"text":"也要金融機構一起配合我再請教一下主委銀行還有信用合作社警示賬戶按照我這邊的數字這個應該是金管會提供的"},{"start":11361.155,"end":11383.807,"text":"在112年6月30號是累計的有10萬4千件但是到了112年12月底到了11萬8千多件這個警示帳戶還是增加的警示帳戶應該是警政單位他們確定之後告訴銀行去具以去對這個帳戶去做一些功能的限制我說這個跟人頭帳戶勒"},{"start":11385.75,"end":11408.135,"text":"這個就是有可能是人頭賬戶嗎?對,那我的意思是說,那當然這個是半年的期間打債務法期間,防治法是5月30號通過那你們是3月1號才正式實施這個告誡的處分那當然這8個月來啦,我想請教這8個月來這個人頭賬戶,就是這個檢視賬戶有沒有稍微下降一點?"},{"start":11410.124,"end":11423.115,"text":"其實還是有一些增加啦那我跟您報告因為洗房法通過通過執法然後這個告誡賬戶處分的部分還要銀行修系統所以才會到3月1號"},{"start":11425.117,"end":11445.606,"text":"不是說中間沒有做事了好我知道那3月1號這個實施齁那還有你們還有一個新的規定約定轉帳這是約定轉帳的齁剛剛是講人頭帳我現在是約定轉帳有一個事前事中事後的管控措施也是預計3月底要上路嗎是那這個是指這個呃國營國家的銀行"},{"start":11450.1,"end":11464.137,"text":"還是全部的銀行大家都要做大家都要做包含民營就最多要做全部都要做對這個3月底所有的銀行就是要做這個你們這個事前事中事後的管控的措施是"},{"start":11464.875,"end":11493.04,"text":"那廣東措施內容主要是什麼?我跟您報告假如說我今天會我今天到銀行去匯錢匯到B銀行的某個帳戶那B銀行是收款的這個銀行他就會跟這個這個我要匯款的銀行去確認這個帳戶是不是已經被其他人已經有有同樣的設定是約定轉帳若有很多設定就表示這個帳戶有可能是人頭帳戶那就要通報之後就可能告誡我不要再匯款好那等於說在3月有兩個新的措施一個是人頭帳戶"},{"start":11494.8,"end":11522.681,"text":"然後一個是這個約定轉帳那我是希望啦先解決這個人頭帳戶約定轉帳的問題希望能夠把詐騙問題再解決最後30秒再請教一下這個在你們報告裡面第8頁有提到這個是有關於這個另外一個啦證券投資信託及顧問法這是關於這個網路廣告的事情你們說在Meta是在6月底可以完成系統的調整落實投資廣告實名制"},{"start":11523.598,"end":11551.654,"text":"那請問一下除了這個Meta之外那Google呢?應該都是六月底Google已經有了Google其實它已經有實施實名制那Meta是說他們要修改系統所以六月底會上線實名制所以Google已經好了已經有實施實名制了那Meta到六月底看你們的報告以為是說這個Meta六月底然後Google還沒有處理"},{"start":11554.072,"end":11572.262,"text":"如果照政局提供的資訊是Google已經有完成了我在最後主席我再借一分鐘就是說當然你們現在打仗無法通過然後這個有關這個約定轉帳然後人頭帳戶的事情有在處理但是我還是要提醒主委就是說現在虛擬貨幣有可能成為詐騙集團的新歡"},{"start":11576.789,"end":11594.49,"text":"就是說這個未來我們針對這個很多這個虛擬貨幣現在都成為這個詐騙集團人頭問題那他們都是說我是個人幣商那個人幣商呢這個檢警查到之後呢就這個個人幣商呢到現在呢行政裁罰了事"},{"start":11595.492,"end":11613.87,"text":"所以現在很多詐騙集團交戰守則就是說你被抓到你就是個人避傷對相關的交易不知情、償貨不起訴這跟過去人頭貨的情況相當類似所以我是建議是不是在虛擬貨幣這方面還是要有一個管理的專法出來"},{"start":11614.946,"end":11627.347,"text":"有關跟委員報告我們會朝訂專法的方向努力另外也建議洗房法增加一個個人避傷或是境外避傷都要就是這種避傷要在洗房法登記的這個制度了"},{"start":11627.773,"end":11628.153,"text":"王世堅委員"},{"start":11659.128,"end":11666.252,"text":"謝謝主席我請金管委員、黃主委跟銀行局長、保險局長還有保險局局長各位午安好"},{"start":11679.085,"end":11706.887,"text":"黃主委你學有專精我也跟你初步談過我先不跟你談我倒是想先看看銀行局長保險局長的廬山真面目了這個古有羅賓漢、廖天丁、傑富、紀平真有銀行局、保險局、傑平、紀富莫名其妙"},{"start":11710.027,"end":11734.068,"text":"銀行應該善盡保護存款戶他們要善盡這個職責才對結果不是銀行局、保險局竟然任命這些銀行、金融公司、保險公司"},{"start":11737.168,"end":11747.062,"text":"我不客氣講四個字堅守自大用客戶的資料各自收刮這些菜籃族"},{"start":11754.375,"end":11780.232,"text":"上班族小資族媽媽班收掛他們辛苦的血換錢要他們買基金所謂幫他們理財基金債券大賺手續費然後我不曉得銀行局保險局你們到底管理的怎麼樣我待會意義跟你們講一些例子看看你們是怎麼幹這個事情的"},{"start":11780.936,"end":11809.304,"text":"任命他們收刮辛苦的小老百姓這幾年來社會財富兩極化那麼有錢的越有錢就算啦多數的市民不但因為兩極化的結果財富大家縮水不打緊這幾年疫情的關係又通貨膨脹小市民過的生活是非常的辛苦"},{"start":11810.758,"end":11834.83,"text":"結果你看看這些金控公司這14家金控公司啊除了那個不漲進的星光以外另外13家賺了3652億3652億喔最多的佔600多億平均下來平均都大概賺百億以上啦天啊他們大賺數百億啊"},{"start":11841.499,"end":11859.107,"text":"我想保險局跟銀行局你們很清楚嘛光是這些手續費占他們的收入一年、七年啊手續費2598億、2600億是多天啊好了那你們管理得怎麼樣好好的管理大家沒話講"},{"start":11872.287,"end":11890.391,"text":"照說銷售這些金融產品最重要產品條件風險說明結果呢結果我光舉這幾年你們的資料裡面光2019到2023年被檢舉金融商品的爭議1390件之多1390件喔"},{"start":11898.891,"end":11911.983,"text":"那這在金融消費者保護法裡面很清楚啊要充分揭露風險那麼不充分揭露風險的話有爭議的話要處罰款30萬以上到1000萬結果你們處的怎麼樣兩位局長你聽好金融商品"},{"start":11925.509,"end":11947.885,"text":"說明正義,這樣子經過評議以後,申訴人有理由的、有理由的、佔的,被你們精挑細選篩檢之後,說他有理由的也有97件。結果啊,連一件都沒有送到金管會去採取。"},{"start":11950.887,"end":11962.954,"text":"這個是你們的評議委員會他們評議出來的1390件說至少這97件有重大爭議結果連一件都沒有經過你們金管會採取那金管會採取了什麼有啦你們公開的資料說銀行業金融商品說明爭議被裁罰的結果"},{"start":11980.078,"end":11988.983,"text":"這麼多年來三屆一年賺手續費2600億這三屆總共罰款多少從800萬1800萬到3000萬罰不到6000萬所以我覺得你這個莫名其妙很明顯的你們在袒護這些金控公司這些銀行還有包括袒護這些授權公司"},{"start":12010.455,"end":12014.716,"text":"很清楚嘛這就是典型的結皮濟膚所以我想看看你們兩個廬山真面目啊沒想到你們長得是這麼斯文啦齁所以外表往往是騙人的啦外表往往是騙人的那好啦我們再講到說這些手續費"},{"start":12038.523,"end":12065.1,"text":"去年2598億的手續費裡面前五名就佔了一半前五名這五家我姑且就不把名字講出來啦這些都是在金控業、銀行業裡面也是我們消費大眾存款戶大家都覺得很有爭議的啦怪怪的啦覺得這幾家金控跟銀行都怪怪的"},{"start":12067.322,"end":12086.51,"text":"結果在你們銀行局的眼中啊他們是乖寶寶天啊這幾家我剛剛講的啊光手續費2600億結果這麼多年四五年下來你財閥三屆財閥加起來總計不到6000萬這個金額啊"},{"start":12098.837,"end":12123.32,"text":"我剛剛講光去年大賺3652億的這13家金控而言那是不痛不癢不痛不癢那麼銀行不只金控公司不只幹這些事他們"},{"start":12124.892,"end":12149.061,"text":"培養的一些理專專員啦當然這些有的也是都學有專精很認真沒有錯啦還竟然也是一群害群之嘛理專還會A錢還會挪用資金天啊結果好不容易你們查到冰山的一角查到挪用資金A錢10億10億喔"},{"start":12153.973,"end":12182.571,"text":"好不容易也是你們三拖四拖三堂會審之後輕輕的就罰八千七百萬就這樣子結案其他的禮專A群跟挪用資金我相信還有只是你們就是比較遲鈍比較遲鈍所以我搞不懂那麼我總結一句就是說"},{"start":12184.599,"end":12194.462,"text":"這麼多年來金管會你們主導下的銀行局、保險局你們財閥金融業逐年減少逐年減少過去幾年2019年也不過4年前總計你們還財閥各項財閥加起來還有3億一直到去年只剩1億"},{"start":12209.164,"end":12226.807,"text":"只剩1億我不懂為什麼調皮搗蛋的這些金控公司跟銀行們突然之間變成乖寶寶嗎?變得那麼好嗎?我不相信至少多數的存款公司不相信那麼"},{"start":12228.237,"end":12247.425,"text":"我在講金融消費者保護法裡面講的應該告知產品風險跟產品條件這個部分只有告沒有知我們訪問了一些蔡蘭族上班族們他們遇到的共同的問題就是說這個"},{"start":12251.052,"end":12276.352,"text":"都是啊 理專經常都是一句話就是說 主管要求例行公事 例行公事等一下我去準備資料 這個放給你看 放那一段就叫做告知那一段影片我普遍問起來 這個針對告知風險都已經要簽字了才給他放一下這個大概不到一分鐘的一個短影片 58秒 58秒"},{"start":12279.602,"end":12299.972,"text":"就我講的只有告沒有知好啦不好意思主席是不是在讓我講我講另外一個問題齁那還有保險局不要在旁邊高興這不是只講金控公司跟銀行而有壽險業一樣啊壽險業每年收取我們社會大眾超過多的時候3兆都超過2兆以上的保險費收入結果他們現在"},{"start":12311.316,"end":12335.234,"text":"這麼多的收入他們野心還是一樣還在他們還販賣投資型保單投資型保單這些也是出了一些問題我今天時間關係改天再跟你保險局談我最後要談一個問題就是說你們金融你們罰的那些錢竟然進到哪裡進到你們的小金庫金融管理基金會"},{"start":12340.543,"end":12361.079,"text":"叫做金融監督機、金融管理機還在一個小金庫不受國會監督然後你們出國啦所謂的考察啦教育訓練啦什麼一大堆所以主席我強烈建立金管會這樣子的小金庫我跟你講任何公家的花費必也證明乎"},{"start":12362.26,"end":12379.811,"text":"光明磊落嘛你要出國接受再教育你要考察正式的編預算不要搞一個說罰金收入把這個當成一個基金當成你們的小金庫最後都會被人家講原來罰這一些啊這個罰去當你們的私房錢"},{"start":12384.433,"end":12391.598,"text":"這是不對的任何一毛錢的花費該花要花但是從國家預算下去編列可不可以?"},{"start":12414.033,"end":12433.47,"text":"其實是歸國庫的但是你罰款是進到那裡嗎不是嗎沒有沒有不到那個基金帳戶裡面去沒有到基金帳戶是歸國庫的好那你把這個帳戶我知道這個是一個小金庫我知道這個是一個小金庫不好意思可能我沒有給您報告清楚很抱歉我們再給您報告好謝謝王世堅委員的質詢謝謝主席謝謝接著我們請李彥秀委員質詢"},{"start":12444.91,"end":12448.155,"text":"是,我可以請主委有請黃主委是,委員午安"},{"start":12455.905,"end":12474.039,"text":"主委辛苦了剛才王世堅委員質詢的消費者告跟知其實我覺得確實我們要花一點心思來去做這一塊接下來其實我要問的問題其實也是長期來包括上星期你到我辦公室來的時候我跟你溝通過的就是我們現在詐騙的問題"},{"start":12476.381,"end":12490.813,"text":"詐騙的議題我相信在臺灣社會的民眾包括我們民間基金會、我們草根影響力、文教基金會委託TVBS去年做的民調當中我們都有看到超過五成的民眾對於政府打詐的表現事實上是不滿意的超過八成的民眾認為臺灣現在的法律對於詐騙犯的刑責"},{"start":12499.48,"end":12506.206,"text":"事實上是太輕然後超過七成的民眾擔心詐騙的犯罪氮濫會造成我們現在的國安問題好那主委我就從你這一次的今晚會的業務報告當中我有觀察到有幾個數據我們來看這些數據包括112年我們對於詐騙案的攔截件數是11300件"},{"start":12524.122,"end":12541.618,"text":"比照一百一十一年我們是一百一十二年我們是增加了三千三百二十一件那我們一百一十二年攔截的金額是七十六億左右七十五點八九億那比一百一十一年增加了三十三點四八億元"},{"start":12542.779,"end":12560.247,"text":"主委這些數據呈現代表的意義就是說我們攔截的件數增加42%攔截的金額增加79%但是在你的工作報告當中我看到你是用成效卓著這四個字"},{"start":12561.691,"end":12577.685,"text":"來去表現出我們現在你攔截的件數也好比112年比111跟112我們攔截的金額也好件數也好看起來都比較多你用成效著住這四個字"},{"start":12579.146,"end":12605.357,"text":"我個人是有一點意見啦你個人覺得這樣的數字你滿意嗎?報告委員那個我跟您兩個部分報告第一個我們是用顯著我們用左著因為比例是高一點但是我跟您報告您指示的沒有錯了其實詐騙有很多界面這邊跟您報告的第一項只是從臨櫃假如我的客戶去臨櫃我被要做一些事情被銀行堵到了這個部分可是還有很多是轉帳"},{"start":12607.419,"end":12626.633,"text":"約定轉帳,這些都不在這個績效之內的。好,主委,用成效著住,顯著也好,著住也好,我覺得這些數字背後代表的意義是我們臺灣現在詐騙犯罪的問題越來越嚴重,你同意我的說法嗎?"},{"start":12627.814,"end":12637.183,"text":"其實金額件數非常多這個母體這麼大相對的看起來你金額非常的多但是另外一層代表意義是我們現在詐騙越來越嚴重而我們金管會自己統計的數據從去年4月到11月當中"},{"start":12643.268,"end":12650.214,"text":"我們的數據也顯示說包括我們我先講一下警政署的統計在2020年的我們的詐騙的件數是2.3萬件2022年2.9萬件2023年從1月到11月總共是3.5萬件所以我們的金額"},{"start":12662.583,"end":12683.87,"text":"每一年創新高從42.5億元到去年的11月是79億元創歷史的新高那今晚會自己的數字也顯示出4月到11月我們總共有15511件非法的投資廣告平均每個月有將近2000件的詐騙廣告被檢取主委"},{"start":12685.411,"end":12705.405,"text":"這個數字其實也代表說我們現在在法規上雖然看起來我們金管會的督導很用心但是我們犯罪的數字事實上是非常的氾濫所以我剛才也看到前幾位委員的質詢當中也有提到我們目前金管會有兩個手段"},{"start":12706.767,"end":12723.027,"text":"一個是在網路上我們可以要求競速的下架在這些平台當中競速的下架另外一個就是實名制的管理這兩個手段對於詐騙的氾濫是不是最有效的工具"},{"start":12726.295,"end":12744.635,"text":"我先跟您報告我們以後不會用成效顯著這四個字我們會虛心接受委員的指導那你就代表現在詐騙氾濫非常嚴重也難怪我們對於詐騙的問題不滿意政府處理的不滿意嘛這個是事實嘛我們兩個不用在這邊爭辯嘛那另外就是"},{"start":12746.565,"end":12762.765,"text":"實名制是一個重點那當然我覺得金融教育也很重要就是要投資人確實要特別注意這個風險跟利潤其實是是存在共同存在的好那主委實名制這一件事情其實我們行政院"},{"start":12763.888,"end":12792.051,"text":"跟妳這邊努力了一年左右的時間我從工作報告目前Google跟Meta今年1月我也看到它已經答應要落實實名制那Google我從妳的網路上妳的業務報告當中我看起來它是沒有答應但是妳現在我剛聽到前主委剛剛法院委員我們政局同仁說Google應該已經有同意了是Meta它的系統改到6月了Meta改到6月份那Google呢"},{"start":12793.171,"end":12794.793,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":12811.035,"end":12838.808,"text":"可能沒有特別去提到這個但是我們跟Google Meta溝通的結果Google已經開始實施那Meta是因為說它整個系統要改全球的系統所以Google已經全部實名制從什麼時候開始應該是之前我們修法完之後沒多久它應該就配合改過了我們沒有特別去問他們實施的日期"},{"start":12841.445,"end":12869.526,"text":"好 那所以是Meta 6月份好 呃 主委 無論是實名制也好或盡速的我們發現到有詐騙的這個網路上的廣告也好我們都應該盡速的要求他下架現在Google要求是 呃 多少 一天之內一天之內要下架 如果沒有 我們會通報警政署那他要下架 那如果不下架就會被警政署裁罰我們有沒有裁罰過"},{"start":12871.056,"end":12876.181,"text":"因為他通常一天就下架了就沒有被裁罰因為裁罰是內政部警政署在處理"},{"start":12877.881,"end":12900.797,"text":"主委你認為就是說沒有財閥一天之內沒有財閥但是你也知道就是說這就是貓抓老鼠因為有一個假帳號也好你下架一個他馬上又有數萬個數千個在背後stand by等著這就是現在詐騙手法日新月異所以我不知道你對於一天下架你滿不滿意以我的廣告經驗我們看到包括"},{"start":12901.898,"end":12916.117,"text":"這些知名的媒體人包括陳文茜也好、謝金河也好、余美人也好包括曹金城都有人用他們的名義在網路上、在臉書上、在IG上做一些詐騙的行為廣告"},{"start":12919.087,"end":12933.094,"text":"這些都有而且我算了一下就是說這些推波的量其實出現了至少都半個月以上我的辦公室他們稍微整理一下都超過半個月以上那又不知道增加了多少被害人在裡頭所以我要強調的就是說我覺得"},{"start":12934.915,"end":12959.335,"text":"源頭管理非常非常的重要無論是Google或Meta的管理上我覺得一天是不是一天之內或者是接下來他有沒有其他的我們高風險的我們有什麼樣的處理的機制我覺得應該要想辦法落實詐騙是臺灣人民心中的痛每片的每一分錢都是我們民眾的我們民眾非常辛苦血汗錢我希望在這一塊"},{"start":12960.376,"end":12989.337,"text":"金管會上能夠更努力的在做守門人的角色另外您到我辦公室那一天有提到說我們現在行政院針對詐騙有成立一個專案小組上次您提到政委在處理因為這是跨部會的問題有一位政委負責督導什麼時候這個案子會出來我們可以看到我們現在民進黨政府從金管到警政署跨部會的有更具體的合作方向"},{"start":12990.222,"end":13005.664,"text":"有包括現在規劃要可能在考慮是不是打詐專法都是目前在研究的方向所以打詐專法什麼時候會推出來內容是什麼我跟委員報告因為這個不是金管會負責主政的可能要從可能是其他部會"},{"start":13007.587,"end":13029.356,"text":"雖然不是你主政但是你在裡面的角色也非常重要我們一起參與提供意見所以我不知道最後主政的會是哪個單位因為行政院可能也還沒有決定主責單位是誰你認為不是你說不定最後就是你所以主委我要建議的是它是一個跨部會的合作我們後面一起來努力打仗的問題"},{"start":13030.416,"end":13058.732,"text":"但是我覺得每一個人的角色不管是誰主政都非常重要所以我非常期待這個打詐的專法可以及早提出來那主要的內容是什麼我也希望有機會跟各部會做進行更多的溝通後面的我們的監理單位相關的我們希望有機會做更多的互動也提出更多的建議這樣子後續的打詐我覺得會有更具體的成效好嗎"},{"start":13059.292,"end":13069.701,"text":"是,我們會不定期跟委員請議,聽聽您的召見。好,謝謝主委。謝謝。謝謝李燕秀委員的質詢。接著我們請謝玉鳳委員質詢,提醒列行委員的時間是5加1。好,謝謝主席。我想要請我們金管會的黃主委。有請黃主委。"},{"start":13089.017,"end":13105.474,"text":"謝謝委員,恭喜連任,謝謝。我想你作為任期最久的主委,你是不是幫自己打個分數?我跟委員報告,我不太替自己打分數,我想大家去評論,我覺得我還有很多要努力的地方,謝謝。所以你幾分?"},{"start":13107.376,"end":13111.582,"text":"我自己自律一定督促自己要進步再進步,但是分數由外界去評論。"},{"start":13125.6,"end":13153.395,"text":"所以你不願意幫自己打分數剛才已經有非常多的委員認為金管會在很多方面尤其是在詐騙部分沒有辦法有具體的作為我想請問你喔你為什麼我看到你的報告裡面你認為金管會阻難詐騙的金額是成績顯著"},{"start":13154.756,"end":13179.488,"text":"那可是詐騙問題是一個跨部會的問題啊你認為真正的問題是在哪裡呢?因為民眾的感受的確改善的程度不深啊,是不是?的確因為整個詐騙變成一個國際的趨勢專業的手法政府機關在因應上的確有很多地方要再加努力"},{"start":13180.728,"end":13200.471,"text":"你覺得是哪一個部分的問題?是在電信的部分呢?還是在檢警調?還是其他相關的問題?你身為這個系統性問題裡面的一環,你看的一定比外界的民眾清楚啊,是不是?"},{"start":13201.343,"end":13229.139,"text":"法務委員其實坦白說跨部會大家都很努力了但是產生詐騙的這種界面有很多嘛金流是一個嘛那電信啊你能處理的是不是只有金流我們處理的是金流跟金融知識的這些教育部分主詐跟部分的市詐主詐部分就是屬於透過銀行的臨櫃或者說是轉帳這部分我們截阻金流"},{"start":13229.738,"end":13249.352,"text":"那所謂的網路詐騙或名人詐騙這個部分你認為為什麼沒有辦法有效的遏止?那這個其中的原因在哪?我跟您報告那個投資詐騙因為我們已經去年修《投信投顧法》70-1條對於在固定的社群網站平台上去給他下架"},{"start":13249.972,"end":13269.448,"text":"但是還有很多名人的這些詐騙案他有的不是在那個平台上比方在其他的社群媒體上這個其實需要大家一起在做努力的那其實我們也都包括我們這邊的交易所每天早上都在去搜尋這些網路上這些疑似詐騙的問題"},{"start":13271.4,"end":13300.153,"text":"所以你認為,照你的說法看來,你認為問題不在你這裡啊?沒有,我覺得...我一直在問你說,整個系統性的問題到底在哪裡?我們如果都不知道問題在哪裡,我們怎麼樣解決這問題?報告委員,其實我絕對承擔金管會該負的責任,不然的話我不會用11月的報告跟委員報告我們在打造方面做了哪些事情。我絕對覺得那是我們要該負的責任,可是我要跟委員報告,這是一個基本的問題。"},{"start":13301.534,"end":13319.584,"text":"銀行要去做任何阻詐的事情它第一個必須要有法據第二它也不能夠影響正常的企業跟個人金融中介的功能這兩個不同的價值是需要去做前衡的就一方面如果我為了限制打詐所有的金流轉帳都嚴格限制它"},{"start":13320.504,"end":13334.374,"text":"更長的時間這個也會影響到金融經濟的發展所以這裡面的法據還有整個做一個權衡這都是我們我想在跨部會討論的時候要去做權衡的再跟您報告還有其實剛才"},{"start":13336.408,"end":13354.159,"text":"也有委員提到金融消費者的保護的方面其實前面委員講的是你財閥的金額不高其實我知道所有的金融業者他們能夠請最好的法律顧問所以在法律方面就法制面而言"},{"start":13354.939,"end":13378.384,"text":"絕對不會有很重大的問題可是重大的問題是在於消費者對於金融商品的不了解以及對於所有投資契約的不了解那所以怎麼樣子減少這樣子認知上面的落差以及減少所謂我們數位的落差也好以及中高零金融消費者"},{"start":13379.864,"end":13406.409,"text":"對於這些投資商品以及數位落差我相信這個部分是金管會我認為你該做而沒做的不應該只就法律層面而是應該就整個消費者跟投資在怎麼樣的認知上面能夠減少這個落差才能有效的遏止金融消費者的所有的問題啊是不是"},{"start":13407.233,"end":13431.361,"text":"委員您這番指示其實您真是專家我跟您報告為什麼要做金融監理一個就是資訊不對稱就是一個就是系統風險所以資訊不對稱本來就是金管會成立的目的之一您看看今天我寫的報告我們有做多少金融的教育跟知識至於說前面委員說罰款金額逐漸降低我跟委員報告我們現在財閥不是只有罰款我們有停職我們有解職"},{"start":13432.501,"end":13445.772,"text":"我們有減薪我們還有扣資本額上禮拜我們做了一個禮專的那個財閥他扣他資本額是30多億喔所以其實我們的財閥不能只是從罰款的金額去看他的高低"},{"start":13447.149,"end":13466.885,"text":"今天是第一次委員會再跟昭緯借一分鐘我想了解一下現在我們國內的超額儲蓄創新高不只是企業部門還有我們的個人部門也是創新高那你看在超額儲蓄創新高的時候會不會"},{"start":13468.362,"end":13490.22,"text":"就是說我們的成交量股市的成交量因為大家不願意為什麼會有超額儲蓄他不願意直接投資嘛國內的投資的前景不看好的情況下可能就做金融投資那股市呢股市有沒有可能未來的日交易量你看是多少4千億還是5千億"},{"start":13491.894,"end":13512.207,"text":"沒有我們今年預估的每天的交易量比去年有增加了那其實主要也是因為整個包括零股的交易投資人現在很多年輕人願意投入臺灣的股市對臺灣的資本市場有信心所以我覺得這後面有有他基本上理性的判斷在裡面當然股市還是多風險還是要注意風險的"},{"start":13513.274,"end":13537.497,"text":"那今年股市會不會上兩萬點?報告委員其實監理機關不太適合去評估這個到多少點到今天是上漲那上兩萬點會不會是一個風險的地方?你講啊,是不是?報告委員其實我們你金融監理機關就是評估風險的單位可是我們不會去評估這個股價到多少這個不是監理機關那我是說如果到兩萬點是不是一個風險點?"},{"start":13538.658,"end":13551.983,"text":"要看這個股市到兩萬點後面的理由是什麼?是有具體的利多的消息、正面的消息、資本面的改變?還是只是因為資金充裕的問題?那如果只是資金充裕的問題,會不會是一個過熱點?"},{"start":13557.289,"end":13577.276,"text":"這個熱跟不熱其實不是監理機關可以去隨便去做不好意思我知道您是很審慎的問我可是我不能夠隨便就這樣子做判斷還是需要有一些分析免許會後可以跟您再多做請益好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝謝一鋒委員的質詢接著我們請葛如君委員質詢"},{"start":13593.905,"end":13620.68,"text":"主席有請金管會黃主委備詢好有請黃主委主委您好今日特別到財委會是想就目前金管會對國外投資的一些做法也是民眾非常關心的議題來和您做討論在資訊傳播日益發達的數位社會裡頭民眾對於海外投資的興趣日漸濃厚"},{"start":13621.681,"end":13627.625,"text":"根據建商工會的統計,國人投資海外市場可以說是超高速加溫,2023年的全市場副委託戶數高達465萬戶,新增戶數85萬戶,較2022年新增75萬戶,成長13%。"},{"start":13639.413,"end":13665.521,"text":"顯示有不少新血加入整個市場的副委託交易量高達4.48兆元台幣兩年成長了21%其中股市交易集中在每股交易量年增15%佔比70%金管會顯然也體察民意了解到我們的國人對於多元投資商品的需求因此在113年度的施政計畫當中提到了"},{"start":13666.421,"end":13694.997,"text":"開放合適的銀行針對高資產客群的理財需求提供多元化金融商品擴大金融業務的範疇開放證券期貨等多元商品的投資管道來滿足多元化商品的需求短短一頁裡面就出現很多多元這兩個字對此我要向金管會表達肯定但是面對已經被國際主流市場接受的新選項尤其又是臺灣最熟悉的科技數位類別的選項"},{"start":13695.777,"end":13721.398,"text":"政府作為可以說是背道而馳保守逃避而且沒有創新跟你們所說的多元根本就不一樣根據國內金融業者所做的調查報告顯示國人對於虛擬資產越來越熟悉接受度越來越高若以1為最低10為最高來看調查結果顯示無論是否持有虛擬資產民眾顯然對投資虛擬資產有一定程度的意願在1到10分裡面已經超過5了"},{"start":13722.239,"end":13751.122,"text":"而且買過的人還會越來越想買越買越多今年1月10號美國證券交易委員會SEC宣布批准了比特幣ETF現貨交易1月10號一共有11檔比特幣ETF申請全部獲得通過這對於喜愛投資美股或虛擬資產的民眾來說是一大樂事但是很遺憾的國內券商在1月23號發出公告表示收到金管會的通知"},{"start":13751.582,"end":13774.096,"text":"只能透過副委託賣出連結虛擬貨幣的現貨以及期貨相關商業不可以新增委託買進受到影響的由美國及香港市場約21檔ETF我知道目前國內的法規不允許比特幣ETF自己在台上市但是禁止國內的民眾用副委託官方推薦的方式來購買"},{"start":13775.057,"end":13787.037,"text":"美國比特幣ETF在投資界引起了不小的反彈想請主委間斷說明目前禁止民眾付委託購買美國比特幣ETF的原因到底是什麼?"},{"start":13788.201,"end":13813.214,"text":"現在的負委託我們允許券商能夠提供投資人投資負委託的商品都是政企局核定過的比特幣ETF為什麼不能買因為它的波動力高沒有內涵價值我想大家都有時候能想一句話不好意思我打斷您投資一定有風險基金投資有賺有賠如果價格波動大且風險高可以作為禁止理由"},{"start":13813.954,"end":13828.095,"text":"金管會是不是應該定期公布各種副委託美股、衍射性金融商品的投資風險,並且根據排名將風險高的逐一禁止呢?美商超微的股票在前三個月漲了200%,是不是也要禁止啊?"},{"start":13828.971,"end":13854.405,"text":"委員這分兩點跟您報告第一點我想您是專家虛擬資產沒有內涵價值第二點我們沒有說完全不行我們請券商工會在半年之內就4月底之前提出如果副委託要納入現貨ETF它的配套措施跟您的方案比特幣ETF嗎半年內嗎是好比特幣沒有內涵價值這個我想請教主委這是您的主觀認定還是做過調查報告"},{"start":13855.525,"end":13878.889,"text":"內涵價值是大家有沒有做調查報告?各國監理機關都是這樣認為的如果有做調查報告的話各國監理所以他認為他同意啊所以他上了ETF、ACC認定啊報告委員打擾您美國證管會不是自願他是法院裁決他的禁止是無效的我想這個是不應該是做主觀認定的齁如果有做調查報告希望一個月內交到我們的辦公室可以嗎?"},{"start":13880.492,"end":13885.096,"text":"因為比特幣的產生就跟實體經濟沒有關係這是您的個人看法還是調查這是從理論跟文獻中我們應該依據您的個人看法來決定民眾要買什麼不買什麼嗎我們會後跟委員請教謝謝好希望我們可以得到相關的報告為什麼對不起這個主委我為什麼這麼這個情緒上這個非常非常的投入這樣的一個議題"},{"start":13907.032,"end":13927.383,"text":"是因為大家真的非常有興趣但是如果我們沒有一個官方負委託購買的過程跟方法反而會讓許多想買比特幣ETF的民眾翻牆透過海外的券商來購買如此政府更加難以掌握民眾對美國比特幣ETF的投資情形"},{"start":13928.323,"end":13952.327,"text":"券商也少了手續費的收入,民眾如果跟國外券商發生了投資糾紛,還要自行承擔風險,甚至可能會不慎掉入詐騙的陷阱,毫無保障。這對政府跟民眾來說可以說是三輸甚至是全輸。我想金管會直接粗暴禁止,是不是有過度限制人民基本自由的嫌疑?退一步來講,如果直接禁止,"},{"start":13952.887,"end":13976.634,"text":"我想我們非常期待主委這邊來提出相關的報告同時也告訴我們到底解禁多久之後可能會開放否則接下來假設虛擬貨幣ETF越來越多元前兩天又上了一檔以太幣的現貨ETF可能也要出現金管會要如何因應我想我最後一個問題今天這個第一次質詢拜託也再借一分鐘主席謝謝"},{"start":13977.774,"end":13985.281,"text":"我想假設民眾真的很想購買,現在意願如此高漲,主委會建議民眾透過什麼樣的管道購買?委員我跟您報告,也許我講的話您不會很高興。包括美國、新加坡這些監理機關其實對民眾投入虛擬資產都是持相對保留跟審慎的態度的。"},{"start":14001.391,"end":14025.17,"text":"好,我想相關保留跟審慎的態度我們希望透過調查報告來瞭解而不是主委一個人的主觀意見沒有,這是其他監理機關包括MIS跟美國的OCC的監理機關的首長都對外做這種宣示的好,我想禁止副委託不是最好的做法金管會應該保障民眾投資國外虛擬貨幣ETF的權益尤其是合規合法的虛擬貨幣ETF的權益"},{"start":14026.511,"end":14031.697,"text":"謝謝主席、謝謝主委。謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長、謝謝董事長"},{"start":14051.929,"end":14079.449,"text":"委員恭喜連任 辛苦了啊 恭喜什麼連任 喔 政長 這是很久以前的事情因為我到選後一直沒有見過你嘛所以第一次見面跟您報告選舉是一時的 但是這個行政、立法互相尊重是永久的這個沒有什麼上對下的問題大家是 努力為公 為國、為民服務這個選舉是一時的那選舉讓你得到這個位置你應該更謙卑面對你的權利"},{"start":14080.794,"end":14109.002,"text":"你要思考怎麼樣為國家人民謀福利而不是為了你個人聲量隨便胡說八道那個我個人最近常常接到一些銀行的這個查詢電話他說按照金管會的指示我必須要查詢你個人的目前的帳戶的這個基本資料的查核通常一般的民眾接到電話說哇這次是詐騙他第一個就是要按照金管會的指示然後要問我個人資料"},{"start":14110.094,"end":14111.435,"text":"請問是針對我們比較特殊的職業還是全國民眾都可能接到這種電話?"},{"start":14126.841,"end":14151.747,"text":"根據《洗鹹防治法》的規定,像您啊,或是我們政務官,就PEP啊,定期都會收到銀行,其實我倒沒有收過電話,都是書面,要我們填去現在的資料。我記得兩封電話耶,我比較早,有沒有收到電話?奇怪,為什麼是針對我,有沒有針對信啊?還是剛好這個,我剛好是這個電腦選到的。"},{"start":14155.041,"end":14181.746,"text":"這個部分還是要有一個統一的規定我會擔心是不是詐騙電話因為我問了我都各知委員我跟您報告我的瞭解應該都是用書面很少會用電話那我們回去洽銀行工會瞭解一下是不是有銀行是用電話來問我書面我的這些辦公室應該會給我知道我完全不知道另外這部分再請主委瞭解一下"},{"start":14182.662,"end":14208.009,"text":"就是說我上禮拜召開記者會針對這個網路詐騙這個詐騙的這個件數跟被詐騙的金額2023年比去年還更高詐騙金額還更高所以代表說這個越打越旺的感覺是不是有這種感覺如果你真的成效你跟這個刑事警察局你跟這個相關的單位跟這個NCC跟數位部"},{"start":14208.829,"end":14234.459,"text":"都有相關的這個聯繫有一個平台打砸辦公室都花功能的話照理說這個件數會降低這個詐騙的進度也會應該減少結果是增加的所以這個網路平台扮演重要的角色比如說我個人的這個臉書也沒有那麼好用我去跟這個網路去反映去檢舉結果這個時程大矮完全沒有任何的回應"},{"start":14236.011,"end":14263.726,"text":"馬上打電話給刑事警察局兩個小時就下架所以很多的民眾不曉得之後我們165這個刑事警察局有這個功能有這個服務立刻你如果有這種被這個網路平台你被冒用透過刑事警察局這個平台他能夠發揮更大的嚇阻效果那一般民眾去他可能認為說這個不要沒關係可能認為說這個你可能是個人的問題"},{"start":14265.515,"end":14285.416,"text":"所以他連處理都沒處理所以這個時候你這個主管機關就要發揮你的嚇阻的功能你不能只是說去找他們溝通你要找他們喝咖啡喝咖啡不是政企局也不是什麼其他的這個另外我再提到這個有價證券的投資的這些假廣告的問題"},{"start":14286.684,"end":14308.947,"text":"同樣這部分主管機關是金管會的政協局政協局也應該去把這個網路的平台這些業者你要找來喝咖啡以主委的高度說你如果不嚴加審查的話你可能會有相關的刑責或可能我們會對你做相關的這個行政採取阿你會害怕阿主委"},{"start":14309.898,"end":14311.799,"text":"主委您的看法是?其實也是因為需要有一個法據所以去年才會修《投信投估法》70-1條"},{"start":14335.39,"end":14337.312,"text":"但是你如果是用有價證券投資假廣告,這也應該是跟你們有關係吧?"},{"start":14350.177,"end":14370.387,"text":"所以我們適用這個部分所以要讓他下架才避免更多人上當或者是損失這個金錢所以這當然是主管業務可以的話不只是政協局局長你主委你可以邀請這個平台說你這個事先審查的機制竟沒有落實我們這個通訊投顧法這個相關的規定"},{"start":14374.071,"end":14377.132,"text":"打砸辦公室也好我也要求打砸辦公室人力、預算、規模都要增加"},{"start":14402.816,"end":14404.176,"text":"在今天的報告中我們特別有提出來在這個"},{"start":14433.103,"end":14443.172,"text":"在33頁特別有強調我們要督導工會將這個OTP納入這個相關的時間到這個我必須遵守這個這個質詢的這個會議的規則我作為這個這個新晉立委的這個榜樣所以這個提供書面資料給我時間到我就應該要要這個尊重不能暢所欲言講到這天分地安這個"},{"start":14460.546,"end":14462.529,"text":"立法委員致歉,新市委也要尊重行政部門。謝謝!"},{"start":14490.517,"end":14505.823,"text":"謝謝主席是不是麻煩有請金管會主委以及投資人及期貨交易保護中心看董事長或總經理誰業務就誰上來都可以不用客氣好謝謝委員午安有請黃主委董事長是張新帝"},{"start":14516.256,"end":14532.537,"text":"兩位時間的關係不一一問候大家非常關心有關於打造的問題去年以前還開論壇希望我們的行政機關在前面先做好管控切斷他們的犯罪工具我相信這個政策方向主委一定是認同的"},{"start":14533.678,"end":14554.613,"text":"我比較關心的是我們依照洗錢防治法授權金管會所訂立的辦法各個金控或是銀行他們必須要出具防治洗錢的內控聲明書這個防治洗錢的內控聲明書基本上是希望他們自我要求自我做好不管是金控法還是銀行法裡面都有相關的規定但我現在的問題是這個內控聲明書有意義嗎?"},{"start":14559.116,"end":14586.434,"text":"有用嗎?我的意思是說假設除了這個內控聲明書但實際上面內機內控一套糊塗的話監管會的應對是什麼?這個我們從內控上面可以處分可以處分洗方法也可以處分可不可以重其重是是重其重好來我們繼續往下看這紙聲明書做出來了以後我們看一下剛剛我不是針對特地的銀行"},{"start":14586.894,"end":14603.723,"text":"但這家銀行戰績太輝煌了所以我特別把他的內控聲明書調出來看每一年的內控聲明書針對內積內控針對房洗房都沒有問題有確實遵守來我們看一下第一線警警他們在辦案的時候看出來的是什麼"},{"start":14605.405,"end":14620.679,"text":"2022年各銀行涉案人頭賬戶的佔比第一名中國信託就有剛剛出具內控聲明書的那一家總共人頭賬戶有上萬個欸佔比是百分之三十欸主委你認為這樣子的內控算有做好嗎?"},{"start":14622.028,"end":14646.802,"text":"所以我們有就相關個案有嚴正的採處這兩個部分齁一個是等到刑事偵查的時候去採處那這個是屬於事後處罰的問題一個是前面針對內機內控的部分到底有沒有做好有沒有採處進行了什麼樣的採處主委你要講的那個例子我知道我們繼續往下看齁"},{"start":14647.998,"end":14667.675,"text":"專家信託他不僅僅是內積內扣沒做好他不是說房子洗錢沒做好內積內扣沒做好他是離譜到什麼他是離譜到自己的行員去參與犯罪組織共同實施詐騙洗錢第一審實施判決出來了判了6年6個月那當然"},{"start":14671.158,"end":14680.873,"text":"泡完了以後法官同時告發說中國信託他也是犯罪行為人這件事情主委你應該認同很離譜吧"},{"start":14682.284,"end":14707.11,"text":"我們覺得不應該發生是 很好 非常好下一頁結果你們在採取的說明書裡面我看到的中國信託他們幹的事情不是只有違反內心內控喔如果是只有防治洗錢的規定沒有做好那個是抽象制度性的問題嘛表示我們市錢預防的功能沒有做好控制沒有做好但"},{"start":14707.97,"end":14719.989,"text":"他是實際上面行員、金融機構行員參與犯咒組織去詐騙、去洗錢但我看了金管會的財主書主委可能認為罰他們兩千萬很重"},{"start":14724.582,"end":14741.246,"text":"我們認為罰他們兩千萬很重但如果以中國信託他們一年的獲利額剛剛四千委員就質詢了嘛光到收手續費的部分就超過四百億了罰個兩千萬會不會痛有沒有用社會有公平但我現在分兩個層次來請教"},{"start":14743.447,"end":14771.93,"text":"第一個層次是這麼嚴重的行為你們為什麼在發財處書的時候相關的事實相關的行為沒有辦法像美國的監理機構一樣具細米以具體的把它寫清楚它是屬於辦理客戶臨過申請調高銀行網路轉帳及ATM提領日限而作業所設缺失嗎是這樣子輕描淡寫就把它的不應該的地方"},{"start":14773.755,"end":14790.86,"text":"可責性的行為這樣子算有充分描述嗎主委我可以跟委員報告第一點就是內容是不是公允詳細我可以接受委員的指導我們會再努力可是重點是因為我跟你交換一個"},{"start":14792.1,"end":14809.938,"text":"想法我沒有在苛責金管會的同仁因為這種立稿的方式我們大概寫了一二十年長的都是這個樣子不是你當主委才變這樣如果是你當主委才變這樣那一定是你的責任嘛但我給金管會的建議是什麼去看一看"},{"start":14811.092,"end":14830.045,"text":"外國的監理機關針對這麼離譜的事情事實是不是把它寫得很清楚他們到底做錯了什麼事情讓社會大眾知道這樣子的採取才有意義嘛第二個部分公罰錢有沒有用罰錢其實是罰誰的錢是罰全體股東的錢嘛"},{"start":14832.307,"end":14854.139,"text":"但是那些出具內資內控聲明書的人從法針到集合到封控到最後高階的經理人每一個人都簽了字結果根本沒有做好嘛我現在講的還不是只有這個個案喔從通案到個案比例最高一年一萬多個人頭賬戶"},{"start":14855.88,"end":14880.436,"text":"具體的個案目前被抓到的有銀行員參與詐騙只罰2000萬能夠有效後組嗎?主委你覺得呢?委員所以我們今年1月14號我們通過銀行責任地圖不是說將來發生問題只要罰錢明年1月1號就會實施相關連帶的主管如果你的責任是督導內控防止洗錢發生問題你都要負連帶的責任是!"},{"start":14881.216,"end":14897.851,"text":"現在的銀行法61條之一對於內機內控如果沒有做好的話那顯然什麼?顯然不是只有罰錢嗎?他本來61條之一是不是授權金管會可以做下面的這些處理部分停止部分的業務啊?有"},{"start":14898.998,"end":14916.645,"text":"對嗎?是都可以考量那以協助詐騙集團這麼嚴重出的內控聲明書明顯虛偽不實就沒做到嘛只罰兩千萬我請金管會回去再思考一下再思考一下是不是未來在面對"},{"start":14918.425,"end":14939.753,"text":"因為銀行他們前面的內機內控沒有做好甚至有參與詐騙不是只有罰錢了事該負責任的人員同時要就責主委這個方向您贊不贊成我們會朝委員指導的方向去研究OK好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢接著我們請游浩委員游浩委員游浩委員不在接著我們請林楚明委員質詢"},{"start":14956.015,"end":14973.112,"text":"好,謝謝主席。時間有限,有請黃主委。有請黃主委。然後請我們的櫃買中心的,今天是董事長嗎?陳董事長。陳董事長,以及我們證交所。陳永成。陳董事長。好。社會保安,謝謝。"},{"start":14977.638,"end":15004.284,"text":"主委我想來跟您談的是我想這個最近台積電因為在這個日本熊本設廠之後大家都在想說臺灣除了台積電之外能不能出現下一個護國神山我先來舉一個數字就是這一陣子我們可以看到就是影視音的發展我想全球都關注到大家都看到韓國的另外一個崛起就是K-POP的流行那麼包括像Disney Plus他們拍一個藝能這樣的一個韓劇就投資了"},{"start":15007.265,"end":15030.913,"text":"五百億韓環我算了一下大概是11億台幣那麼另外Netflix就是網飛它因為黑暗榮耀的成功也是一個韓劇那麼呢現在呢為他們帶來的收益讓他們未來接下來要投資至少超過25億美元在韓劇的拍攝換算一下今天的匯率大概至少有700"},{"start":15032.489,"end":15035.892,"text":"780幾億,言下之意就是對臺灣來講臺灣下一個世代的護國神山會不會是文創我們不知道但是來下一張我們來看一下以臺灣文創的產值來看的話在2022年的時候只有4300億但是以上個禮拜公佈的2022年度已經來到了1.09兆但是"},{"start":15056.208,"end":15080.866,"text":"我想問一下就是主委你怎麼來看臺灣文創的發展當現在全球都在用錢來砸錢製造高品質的文創的時候那麼臺灣的文創產業要怎麼樣注入新活水因為就我所了解目前的所謂的文創上市櫃的家數來講只有一家必應然後上櫃25家新櫃是10家"},{"start":15083.307,"end":15095.521,"text":"主委你知道上市的這一家必應創造是什麼時候上市的嗎?抱歉委員我請您知道我不太清楚我想這個證交所應該有資料對不對?請走,必應創造"},{"start":15096.584,"end":15120.994,"text":"知道嗎?我不是記得很清楚大概3、4年前吧?對,因為其實你們在去年的12月20號的時候其實有針對文創產業作為一些投資體檢以及相關上市櫃的一些說明尤其是創新版的這個部分我來告訴主委我查到的資料是2018年2018年的2月我們現在已經到2024年了"},{"start":15125.336,"end":15134.485,"text":"那麼言下之意這5、6年當中沒有其他的文創的公司能夠有機會再上市那麼到底我們的證交所跟櫃買中心是要如何來扮演這個投資市場的敲門磚當全球現在都在透過"},{"start":15140.951,"end":15156.469,"text":"資金的挹注文創的時候那麼我想請問一下主委或者是證交所我們知道其實都有所謂的創新版我們也希望創新版能夠扮演這個領頭羊的角色但是過程當中為什麼不盡理想原因到底在哪裡"},{"start":15158.616,"end":15175.659,"text":"其實我覺得我們絕對沒有排除任何的產業那我們都希望各種產業有發展潛力都能夠在我們的交易所能夠上市那我是不是請簡董經理說明一下你們在招商過程中有沒有特別注意"},{"start":15176.591,"end":15189.996,"text":"我們在創新的這一個部分其實我們去年的成績還不錯我們已經有10家創新的公司已經掛牌市值大概有1500億左右"},{"start":15191.917,"end":15216.922,"text":"那持續有一些創新的公司他符合上市的規定那就可以來掛牌那另外交易所也對於比如說除了電子產業以外我們希望有一些新的產業能夠出來比如說數位雲端啊比如說生技啦比如說運動休閒類的整個類別我們都有在鼓勵他們來"},{"start":15217.742,"end":15242.857,"text":"因為我的時間有限委員這樣好不好我們如果委員可以我們可以多跟文化部聯繫一下看他有沒有學的需要扶植的這種產業我們來看看怎麼樣在交易所能夠或者其他適合的場地能夠募資這樣可以嗎好其實事實上就是說我們都知道就是我非常關心這一塊那麼證交所在有關於創新版或者是在櫃板中心有關上櫃的部分所以現在"},{"start":15243.757,"end":15264.329,"text":"其實很多的文創業者或者是文創產業他們當然希望能夠透過市場資金挹注讓他們能夠壯大但是以我自己來做的這個比較就會發現在創新版的部分在財務的條件上面相對的是比較寬鬆要上櫃是比較有更多的要求但是在投資人的部分反而是上櫃"},{"start":15265.65,"end":15294.17,"text":"的部分沒有對投資有太多的要求流動性也就會比較高所以在這樣的部分當中如何讓這些所謂需要資金導入或者是需要能夠有機會進入上市或者是新櫃的部分的時候到底他們應該要諮詢誰我想這是對於很多的創從事創意或者是投資文創的人他們其實是不了解的那麼對他們來說他們要如何來徵詢這些答案呢"},{"start":15295.506,"end":15324.404,"text":"我覺得因為創新版畢竟它的風險一般的版要高所以對投資人有一個限制可是去年已經政經局已經調降了它的這個資格了那委員是不是這樣子我可以也許由您來指導我們起交易所、購買中心跟相關文創產業瞭解他們的現在的情況那現在的這種創新版跟那個購買中心的這個上櫃版的這些條件還有什麼可以再去做調整的"},{"start":15324.904,"end":15333.332,"text":"好,我所知道的是我曾經也希望證交所跟這個文策院能夠有多一點的聯動包括你們去年12月20號曾經有公開一個說明會而且這樣的說明會也要持續是不是會後可以給我一份報告包括去年12月20號當時說明會的狀況以及後續的狀況因為我認為其實對於文創業者一定希望能夠在不一樣的層次的市場當中能夠獲得更多的資金活水"},{"start":15350.808,"end":15368.201,"text":"但是這些資金回水要怎麼樣正確的導入甚至於讓他們有機會能夠進入創新版或者是能夠上櫃對他們來講恐怕他們需要的是更多的是輔助我當然知道金管會是屬於一個金融監理但是在監理的同時如何能夠"},{"start":15368.942,"end":15382.818,"text":"也賦予這樣的讓這個所謂能夠讓產業蓬勃然後能夠協助讓整個金所謂的市場能夠健全我想這個也是金管會的責任之一那會後是不是給我一個更詳細的報告是是增加委員提示辦理謝謝"},{"start":15383.581,"end":15407.919,"text":"好,謝謝林楚穎委員的質詢。接著我們請蔡易委員、蔡易委員、蔡易委員不在。接著我們請林沛翔委員、林沛翔委員、林沛翔委員不在。接著我們請鄭振興委員、鄭振興委員、鄭振興委員不在。接著我們請黃美惠委員、黃美惠委員、黃美惠委員不在。接著我們請林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在。接著我們的鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在。接著我們請何新淳委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員不在。接著我們請楊瓊穎委員"},{"start":15413.305,"end":15433.595,"text":"沒有。好。今日登記發言的委員均與詢答完畢。那本日的這個會議做如下的決定。一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢及未答覆請補充資訊請金管會於一週內書面答覆。委員另有要求期限者從其所定。"},{"start":15434.535,"end":15453.862,"text":"委員盧明才、楊瓊英所提書面質詢已列入紀錄刊登公報並請金管會以書面答覆本日的會議程已進行完畢堂友不在場的委員提出書面質詢已列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人協助處理休息主委辛苦了"},{"start":15463.274,"end":15463.575,"text":"這樣就不出力了。"},{"start":15499.838,"end":15500.621,"text":"本集完"},{"start":15530.831,"end":15531.175,"text":"多謝您的收看。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}